When Does Human Life Begin?

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Accountable
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When Does Human Life Begin?

Post by Accountable »

Lulu2 wrote: "2. Far less likely, but better imo: the gov't grants citizenship with all it's rights and protections upon conception, or some such point. It would make it a crime to kill the fetus, and solve the problem of illegal criminal aliens crossing the border to give birth so their child can be American."





+++++++++ Accountable, you insist that a woman who does not want to continue a pregnancy MUST do it for 9 months before giving birth. WHY? Are you saying that the "rights'' of a zygote outweigh those of a sentient, adult human being? If so, why?The life of an innocent human being outweighs the lesser rights of another human being. I think that's a pretty universal opinion.



Our disagreement is around whether a human zygote/fetus/whatever is a human being.



*added*

Understand that I have no problem with people exercising their legal right, whatever they are. With me, it's "should", not "must". I will encourage people to do what - in my view - should be done. This human life issue is one of the rare few issues in which I would support government intervention.



What about #1? Didn't you like that idea?
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zinkyusa
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Post by zinkyusa »

Technically both the sperm and egg are already alive prior to conception so obviously conception is not the beginning of life IMO...
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Post by rainbowsmiles »

^ Good point zinkyusa :)

Oh there is a funeral all right Okie. Just that it is attended by one person....the mother......and with enough grief if everyone was there. I had a miscarriage and it was just as painful as losing a child and I have never fogotten. A miscarriage is different than an abortion. I wanted my baby. Women who have abortions don't want the baby. And please note that I am not against abortion....just making a statement as to the difference between the two.


Hi Weber,

Not to be confrontational because I do respect your opinion but I read your post and wanted to add a thought to that. As far as abortion meaning a person doesn't want their baby - that would also depend on the person. I know of 2 people who had abortions who actually wanted their babies and for personal reasons felt cornered and pushed into having the abortion. Of course, they are living with the consequences of not really wanting a an abortion and yet having one but I just wanted to add that.

And I completely agree with your point on the miscarriage. :)
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Post by weber »

rainbowsmiles wrote: ^ Good point zinkyusa :)



Hi Weber,

Not to be confrontational because I do respect your opinion but I read your post and wanted to add a thought to that. As far as abortion meaning a person doesn't want their baby - that would also depend on the person. I know of 2 people who had abortions who actually wanted their babies and for personal reasons felt cornered and pushed into having the abortion. Of course, they are living with the consequences of not really wanting a an abortion and yet having one but I just wanted to add that.

And I completely agree with your point on the miscarriage. :)


I am incredibly sorry and ashamed Rainbow

I know what you are saying. Many people I know have had to have abortions even though they want their babies and they do suffer greatly from that for the rest of their lives. I wasn't thinking of that part of it and I should have remembered to say that. This is a touchy issue and difficult to get all of one's views in totally. I will stay out of this.
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Post by Lulu2 »

Accountable "The life of an innocent human being outweighs the lesser rights of another human being. I think that's a pretty universal opinion."

What? Are you implying that a woman who finds herself with an unplanned, unwanted pregnancy is less than "innocent?" That opinion might be yours, but it's certainly not mine, nor is it the opinion of anyone who is pro-choice and who believes that the ultimate decision must rest with the woman.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
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Post by rainbowsmiles »

I am incredibly sorry and ashamed Rainbow

I know what you are saying. Many people I know have had to have abortions even though they want their babies and they do suffer greatly from that for the rest of their lives. I wasn't thinking of that part of it and I should have remembered to say that. This is a touchy issue and difficult to get all of one's views in totally. I will stay out of this.


Oh no Weber, please don't stay out of the conversation (I'm sorry) - your points are valid and I appreciate reading what you have to say (all the time). It was just something that popped in my mind when I was reading the discussion here and I thought I'd add it. Please, I hope I didn't offend you or anyone else here.

True, this is such a touchy topic. I wasn't going to comment at all and then when I did I kicked myself.

I think it is great that we can discuss it in a nonconfrontational way. :)
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Post by Okie »

weber wrote: I am incredibly sorry and ashamed Rainbow

I know what you are saying. Many people I know have had to have abortions even though they want their babies and they do suffer greatly from that for the rest of their lives. I wasn't thinking of that part of it and I should have remembered to say that. This is a touchy issue and difficult to get all of one's views in totally. I will stay out of this.
Consider the case that just happened in Colorado. This nutcase went into a school and took hostages and in the end he let most of them go but kept two girls in his grasp. He had sex with one of them and he killed one. I dont know if he killed the one he has sex with. But think of it, if the girl did become pregnant why should she have to carry this mans baby to term and then give birth and raise it or give it up? If she was the one he killed then its a moot point. But I know many girls who get raped do not report it and even if they do why should they have to go through nine months of carrying a baby and the birth. I am in favor of the Plan B pill but many pharmacists refused to sell it to them. I understand those who feel life begins at the instant of the sperm entering the egg. But I dont. If a woman or girl has been raped she ought to as least be able to stop it right then. I knew one little girl who got raped many many times by her father. No one in the house dared to report it. I never even knew it until he had died and they told me then. The only thing he did to prevent her becoming pregnant was to withdraw, thinking she could not get pregnant that way.

sometimes a girl gets in the heat of passion and allows the guy to have sex without protection. both are at fault of course. but she is the one that will have to carry the baby.She should have the right to take a pill the next day. Hormones are powerful stuff. The president wants kids to "just say no" but we all know how well that worked in the war on drugs.
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Post by weber »

Okie wrote: Consider the case that just happened in Colorado. This nutcase went into a school and took hostages and in the end he let most of them go but kept two girls in his grasp. He had sex with one of them and he killed one. I dont know if he killed the one he has sex with. But think of it, if the girl did become pregnant why should she have to carry this mans baby to term and then give birth and raise it or give it up? If she was the one he killed then its a moot point. But I know many girls who get raped do not report it and even if they do why should they have to go through nine months of carrying a baby and the birth. I am in favor of the Plan B pill but many pharmacists refused to sell it to them. I understand those who feel life begins at the instant of the sperm entering the egg. But I dont. If a woman or girl has been raped she ought to as least be able to stop it right then. I knew one little girl who got raped many many times by her father. No one in the house dared to report it. I never even knew it until he had died and they told me then. The only thing he did to prevent her becoming pregnant was to withdraw, thinking she could not get pregnant that way.

sometimes a girl gets in the heat of passion and allows the guy to have sex without protection. both are at fault of course. but she is the one that will have to carry the baby.She should have the right to take a pill the next day. Hormones are powerful stuff. The president wants kids to "just say no" but we all know how well that worked in the war on drugs.


Okie

I know I said I would stay out of this but............ I don't think anybody has ever said that someone who has been raped HAS to carry that baby. There are some circumstances stated for legal abortions and rape is one and a threat to the life of the mother is another. And there are probably others

And when you get right down to the core of it, it is the choice of the one raped or life threatened or whatever else, it is the choice of the woman to make. Some raped women might choose to carry the baby. Others might not. The choice belongs to the women.

For me, I sort of draw the line where prostitutes or some who like to sleep around use it as a birth control method. That to me is gross. But then again, that is just me.
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Post by twizzel »

Accountable wrote: I'm torn. I'm not certain if the sperm penetrating the egg actually establishes life, but it is certain where the first sign of life is evidenced. Life begins when the cell splits the first time. The human being is alive in that environment conducive to it's growth. The argument of viability is moot. Sure, taking him/her out of that environment would kill him/her, but taking an undeniably living fish out of water will kill the fish, too.



If US politicians listened to scientists and fact as closely as they listen to irrational arguments from voters, they would recognize that privileges and protections of citizenship, given at birth, ought to be given at life. Of course, these youngest of citizens won't be voters until these politicians are retired, so they don't count.



Let the fireworks begin.
As the cell is human alive and doing it's job prior to the split i'd say before the split and most definately after fertilisation as a new life.
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Post by Okie »

weber wrote: Okie

I know I said I would stay out of this but............ I don't think anybody has ever said that someone who has been raped HAS to carry that baby. There are some circumstances stated for legal abortions and rape is one and a threat to the life of the mother is another. And there are probably others

And when you get right down to the core of it, it is the choice of the one raped or life threatened or whatever else, it is the choice of the woman to make. Some raped women might choose to carry the baby. Others might not. The choice belongs to the women.

For me, I sort of draw the line where prostitutes or some who like to sleep around use it as a birth control method. That to me is gross. But then again, that is just me.
I know its not the most common cause of pregnacy for the father to be the rapist but it happens more than one might think. Most of the laws dealing with abortion requires the parents to go with the child. In the case I cited, I am sure the father would not go admit he was the one who raped her. I dont know if that piece of info is required but I would guess that it is. Of course the mother would never have gone with her if the father didnt. Now they have a law that a child cannot go with anyone else to get an abortion. At least not across a state line. Add to all that, the lawmakers are trying to make sex education illegal and are pressing abstinence only laws. Where they have started that, the rate of teen pregnancy has gone up. IN Africa, this administration has told them we are wanting them to instill abstinenece only measures and some of them have even went out and colloected the condoms they had distributed. Of course that will cause AIDs to thrive. IF, as in a perfect world, all teens and adults too for that matter, would stop having sex out of wedlock then yes, condoms might not be necessary. but that is a fairy tale.
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Post by rainbowsmiles »

I agree with Weber about promiscuity and the whole "using abortion as a form of birth control." I don't understand it and never will. Having been with someone who had an abortion, I saw how devestating it was for her emotionally and also learned of the painful process she had to go through physically to end it - I don't understand why a woman would choose to go through it over and over again. :confused:
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Post by Accountable »

Lulu2 wrote: Accountable "The life of an innocent human being outweighs the lesser rights of another human being. I think that's a pretty universal opinion."



What? Are you implying that a woman who finds herself with an unplanned, unwanted pregnancy is less than "innocent?" Of course. Certainly less innocent than the baby (by any other name).Lulu2 wrote: That opinion might be yours, but it's certainly not mine, nor is it the opinion of anyone who is pro-choice and who believes that the ultimate decision must rest with the woman.'kay.
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Post by Lulu2 »

And what does "innocence" have to do with anything? Unless you're implying that, being less "innocent" makes the woman "sinful?" And deserving punishment?
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
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Post by Accountable »

Lulu2 wrote: And what does "innocence" have to do with anything? Unless you're implying that, being less "innocent" makes the woman "sinful?" And deserving punishment?What punishment? Step back a second and think on what I said.



"The life of an innocent human being outweighs the lesser rights of another human being. I think that's a pretty universal opinion."



I didn't say anything at all about the other human being, being innocent or not, only that the first's life is more important than the second's rights. Not more important than the second's life, and not that the first's rights are more important.



Lulu, your life is more important than my right to healthcare.

Your life is more important than my right to drive where I choose, or even to drive at all.

Your life Is more important than my right to free speech, pursuit of happiness, choice of worship, or general welfare.



The only right I have that comes close to trumping your life, is my own right to life - and even then it is only evenly balanced with your own.
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Post by Okie »

Accountable wrote: What punishment? Step back a second and think on what I said.



"The life of an innocent human being outweighs the lesser rights of another human being. I think that's a pretty universal opinion."



I didn't say anything at all about the other human being, being innocent or not, only that the first's life is more important than the second's rights. Not more important than the second's life, and not that the first's rights are more important.



Lulu, your life is more important than my right to healthcare.

Your life is more important than my right to drive where I choose, or even to drive at all.

Your life Is more important than my right to free speech, pursuit of happiness, choice of worship, or general welfare.



The only right I have that comes close to trumping your life, is my own right to life - and even then it is only evenly balanced with your own.


Well said but then I think somewhere along the way, pursuit of happiness got trampled. Ferinstance, if you wish to swim in the canal in bricktown or go nekkid in the park because it makes you happy, then the pursuit goes down the drain.
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Post by Accountable »

Okie wrote: Well said but then I think somewhere along the way, pursuit of happiness got trampled. Ferinstance, if you wish to swim in the canal in bricktown or go nekkid in the park because it makes you happy, then the pursuit goes down the drain.:-2 ....... ........ ........ 'kay.
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Post by Lulu2 »

Accountable, you & I've been down this conversational path before. Imagine, if you will, a woman who uses birth control CONSCIENTIOUSLY, who finds herself pregnant because that birth control failed.

Denying her the right to terminate that pregnancy amounts to "punishment," in my point of view.

She is no less "innocent" than a zygote. "Innocence" implies the lack of "sin," does it not?
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
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Post by Accountable »

Lulu2 wrote: Accountable, you & I've been down this conversational path before. Imagine, if you will, a woman who uses birth control CONSCIENTIOUSLY, who finds herself pregnant because that birth control failed.



Denying her the right to terminate that pregnancy amounts to "punishment," in my point of view.



She is no less "innocent" than a zygote. "Innocence" implies the lack of "sin," does it not?
And as I said before, our disagreement is around whether a human zygote/fetus/whatever is a human being. Without that, you & I will just have to team up and beat up others on other subjects, because this one, for us, is at an impasse.
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Post by weber »

Lulu2 wrote: Accountable, you & I've been down this conversational path before. Imagine, if you will, a woman who uses birth control CONSCIENTIOUSLY, who finds herself pregnant because that birth control failed.

Denying her the right to terminate that pregnancy amounts to "punishment," in my point of view.

She is no less "innocent" than a zygote. "Innocence" implies the lack of "sin," does it not?


Hi Lulu

I a pro life. However the situation that you are describing here is a choice for you and the father to make. Unfortunately if legislation were made to cover your circumstance, then all women regardless of the situation would claim as you are. In other words, it would an opening for abortion on demand meaning anybody from any age just says I want an abortion and they get it. Guidelines need to be drawn so the system is not abused. Every day of my life I cuss because I have to do things legislated because of the offenders of the law.

All of that being said, abortion is available to anyone who wants it, any age, privacy, whenever.........so I don't understand your problem. If you wanted an abortion, you just get it. Perhaps there is something I am missing. I am not aware of any legislation on abortion.
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Post by Katy1 »

In the first few weeks of it's existence a fertilised egg is in no way distinguishable from that of a dog or a fish. It has no characteristics that would indicate to the most expert of biologists/scientists that it might become a human foetus except perhaps it's DNA. So, at conception it is nothing but a collection of cells that have the potential to become human, and DNA......... So, if it is dislodged from the lining of the womb and destroyed, then what exactly is being terminated? DNA? Cells that have the potential to become a foetus? Should there be a law against the destruction of human DNA ? If so the list of possible implications are exhaustive...
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Post by Lulu2 »

Thanks, Katy! Obviously, I agree. A zygote might have potential for "life," but life as we know it is sentient.

Weber, I don't have a problem and I didn't have one. I had the pregnancy ended and went on with my life. Many people don't consider what happens when conscientious people try hard to avoid pregnancy and it happens anyway.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
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Post by Okie »

weber wrote: Hi Lulu

I a pro life. However the situation that you are describing here is a choice for you and the father to make. Unfortunately if legislation were made to cover your circumstance, then all women regardless of the situation would claim as you are. In other words, it would an opening for abortion on demand meaning anybody from any age just says I want an abortion and they get it. Guidelines need to be drawn so the system is not abused. Every day of my life I cuss because I have to do things legislated because of the offenders of the law.

All of that being said, abortion is available to anyone who wants it, any age, privacy, whenever.........so I don't understand your problem. If you wanted an abortion, you just get it. Perhaps there is something I am missing. I am not aware of any legislation on abortion.
Please go to this site and read

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Post by weber »

Okie wrote: Please go to this site and read

http://members.aol.com/abtrbng/stablw.htm


Thank you Okie

Sorry Lulu

I am from Canada where abortion is legal on demand as far as I know. I was not aware that it was not legal in the states.. Now I understand why Dr. Morgentaller has stayed in Canada. I would like to see some legislation in Canada to stop the total on demand thing. I still think it is wrong to use abortion as a means of birth control which I know does happen. And I think women should have some rights to abortion, just not on demand, for any reason at all. It is a tough issue. And I do believe that human life begins at conception.
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Post by Lulu2 »

Weber...abortion is legal here. At the time I had mine, it was not. Many anti-choice people are trying to fight the laws which allow choice. They insist on imposing their religious beliefs into the rest of us. It's a pity.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
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Post by weber »

Lulu2 wrote: Weber...abortion is legal here. At the time I had mine, it was not. Many anti-choice people are trying to fight the laws which allow choice. They insist on imposing their religious beliefs into the rest of us. It's a pity.


That is a pity Lulu.

I have my beliefs but I don't try to push them on others. I have found too many times in my life that I said I wouldn't do something and then I did it. I never had to face the choice of abortion but there was a time that I thought I might and I wondered what I would do. I would hope that I would not have aborted but I will never know that for sure. Many times it is that objections to certain things is totally relative to whether or not a person is there.
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Post by nvalleyvee »

Damn........I could NOT vote..............

To the depth of my soul ................I could not vote.

I have no idea when a mother or father can say when their child's life begins.

Was it when they were loving each other? Was it when they decided they could not support the child???....Was it when the parents interfered??? Was it when they just went "Oh my God why did this happen"?

We only talk about this because they were not ready to start a family.

I would like to state my opininion but it would never be the opinion of the mother or father..............our laws respect the mother and they should respect the father too.
The growth of knowledge depends entirely on disagreement..........Karl R. Popper
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Post by Lulu2 »

WEBER "Many times it is that objections to certain things is totally relative to whether or not a person is there"

Thank you. It's really easy for people who've never been in the situation to make judgements, based on their religious experience.

Try judging when you're the single mother/sole support of other children....or when your husband is dying of a genetic disease.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
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Post by weber »

Lulu2 wrote: WEBER "Many times it is that objections to certain things is totally relative to whether or not a person is there"

Thank you. It's really easy for people who've never been in the situation to make judgements, based on their religious experience.

Try judging when you're the single mother/sole support of other children....or when your husband is dying of a genetic disease.


Yes and unfortunately most people don't see that. Most people mistakenly know without a doubt what they would do in any given situation. I call that the pride that is labelled sin.
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Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity.

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Post by Lulu2 »

WOW! And, as my grandmother would've said...."Puffed uppery." :wah:
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
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Post by Okie »

ian wrote: when it is granted


??????????????????
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Post by Lulu2 »

Troll Alert!
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
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Post by Fibonacci »

ian wrote: when it is granted


Please Clarify!
The poolhall's a great equalizer. In the poolhall, nobody cares how old you are, how young you are, what color your skin is or how much money you've got in your pocket... It's about how you move. I remember this kid once who could move around a pool table like nobody had ever seen. Hour after hour, rack after rack, his shots just went in. The cue was part of his arm and the balls had eyes. And the thing that made him so good was... He thought he could never miss. I know, 'cause that kid was me.
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Post by Katy1 »

weber wrote: Yes and unfortunately most people don't see that. Most people mistakenly know without a doubt what they would do in any given situation. I call that the pride that is labelled sin.


Nice one weber.

:)
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Post by FlatBlob »

Katy1;220735 wrote: I would say at the point of consciousness. When the foetus becomes aware of it's surroundings.

An early embryo has no limbs; no head; no brain; no ability to see, hear, smell, taste or touch; no internal organs, no self-consciousness, no ability to think, reason, sense its environment, etc. Even at the age of one month, a human embryo cannot be distinguished from that of a cat or dog.

To be a person to me means to be able to think, have a moral sense, and to be physically different to our fellow humans.

I would say that 'personhood' occurs somewhere between 12 and 16 weeks when the foetus starts to develop individual features that make it stand apart from other foetus'. It is at about this point that 'flutterings' or limb movement can be detected.

This question is a philosophical one and also one of science, but I don't think there is, or ever will be a general concencus as some people and religions will deem life as from the time that the cell divides. If this were the case (and I strongly believe to the contrary) it would have serious moral implications for stem cell research for which I am an advocate (and have donated umbilical cord stem cells after the birth of both of my children)


Yeah! There is no brain or part of the mind to realize life or to BE alive until about three months! Though I agree, this will never be a total agreement! :-5 If anyone here has been to "body worlds", "bodies: the exhibition", etc, they have seen the foetuses and they are small shriveled peanut things until about 14 weeks. :yh_angry
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When Does Human Life Begin?

Post by Okie »

FlatBlob;467332 wrote: Yeah! There is no brain or part of the mind to realize life or to BE alive until about three months! Though I agree, this will never be a total agreement! :-5 If anyone here has been to "body worlds", "bodies: the exhibition", etc, they have seen the foetuses and they are small shriveled peanut things until about 14 weeks. :yh_angry


Yes. If a cell is life, then every time you bath or scrub then you are killing many lives. Washing them down the drain. I agree life begins when a fetus has brain waves. I dont entirely agree that it has to have noral values. There are many people in institutions that have damage to their brain and cannot know what moral values are yet they are alive and I have to say they are human. If I ever degenerate into a person who has no sense of what is going on around me and it dont look like I ever will then I hope they dont let me stay alive or worse plug my body into machines to keep it alive when I am not really there. I dont want the religious right to get the laws changed so my family does not have the final say. I can tell my family what I want and they will see to it.
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When Does Human Life Begin?

Post by FlatBlob »

Okie;467341 wrote: Yes. If a cell is life, then every time you bath or scrub then you are killing many lives. Washing them down the drain. I agree life begins when a fetus has brain waves. I dont entirely agree that it has to have noral values. There are many people in institutions that have damage to their brain and cannot know what moral values are yet they are alive and I have to say they are human. If I ever degenerate into a person who has no sense of what is going on around me and it dont look like I ever will then I hope they dont let me stay alive or worse plug my body into machines to keep it alive when I am not really there. I dont want the religious right to get the laws changed so my family does not have the final say. I can tell my family what I want and they will see to it.


There Are smart people in the world! Yay!
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When Does Human Life Begin?

Post by weber »

FlatBlob;467346 wrote: There Are smart people in the world! Yay!


But it is not just a cell. It is a sperm and an egg united, the very beginning of human life. If that sperm and that egg had not united, the person that would grow out of just that sperm and egg and nothing else added, that person would never exist. It the particular sperm and particular egg that were the very beginnings of Churchill had been destroyed, Churchill would never have existed.....each person unique, only that sperm, only that egg and then Churchill in the womb, Churchill born, Churchill tended to as a child, Churchill the teen, Churchill the adult, Churchill the old man, all the very same human life grown from sperm and egg, nothing added but food and learning.

And we've always had the right to choose how our life ends. Always will.
miriam:yh_flower



Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity.

.................Charles Mingus



http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/enter.cfm?
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When Does Human Life Begin?

Post by FlatBlob »

weber;467353 wrote: But it is not just a cell. It is a sperm and an egg united, the very beginning of human life. If that sperm and that egg had not united, the person that would grow out of just that sperm and egg and nothing else added, that person would never exist. It the particular sperm and particular egg that were the very beginnings of Churchill had been destroyed, Churchill would never have existed.....each person unique, only that sperm, only that egg and then Churchill in the womb, Churchill born, Churchill tended to as a child, Churchill the teen, Churchill the adult, Churchill the old man, all the very same human life grown from sperm and egg, nothing added but food and learning.


The sperm isn't alive, is it? does it reproduce by itself? Does it consume? Is the egg alive? Does it have a mind? no on both of those. So if they smash into each other and one breaks, all this means is we've made 2 cells, not one. What pereplexes me is that The "pro-life" stand point is often adopted by the religion that has killed millions of people so that a 2 then 4 then 8 celled organism can evolve (ooh, the e-word) into a human after NINE MONTHS.
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When Does Human Life Begin?

Post by Accountable »

It's the human - unique DNA - in the earliest stage of development.



I take it you're not pro-life? :)
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When Does Human Life Begin?

Post by FlatBlob »

Accountable;467370 wrote: It's the human - unique DNA - in the earliest stage of development.



I take it you're not pro-life? :)


I'm pro-choice
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When Does Human Life Begin?

Post by Okie »

weber;467353 wrote: But it is not just a cell. It is a sperm and an egg united, the very beginning of human life. If that sperm and that egg had not united, the person that would grow out of just that sperm and egg and nothing else added, that person would never exist. It the particular sperm and particular egg that were the very beginnings of Churchill had been destroyed, Churchill would never have existed.....each person unique, only that sperm, only that egg and then Churchill in the womb, Churchill born, Churchill tended to as a child, Churchill the teen, Churchill the adult, Churchill the old man, all the very same human life grown from sperm and egg, nothing added but food and learning.

And we've always had the right to choose how our life ends. Always will.




I recall when one of the main worries of the government was that there would come a point in time that the world would be so over populated we would all starve. They were frantically trying to learn how to farm the sea etc. I think about then was when they made the movie "solylent Green". Anyway finally China made a hard choice and limited the size of familys. Many other countries are so overpopulated now they have to have special laws about who can drive into the city. You have to buy an expensive permit to be allowed to drive your car into a city.

The Catholic church has always been against any sort of birth controls and I have seen many familys who are Catholic have ten children or more. Most people agree that having two children two children will not cause more over population. I dont know. But in any case, the goverment and most people agree that because of a boom in poplulation is now about to cause major problems in providing a pension to people who are too old to work. Do we really want another baby boom?

There are those, mostly on the right, who are opposed to birth control and to the morning after pill and to the government providing condoms or sex education. Why? Are they wanting to cause over population? If so why? Is it for making cheap labor? Are they looking ahead to providing a source of cheap labor for manufacturers? China is already doing that. And technology is doing that.

I think people should be applauded for trying to control population.
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When Does Human Life Begin?

Post by FlatBlob »

Okie;467378 wrote: I recall when one of the main worries of the government was that there would come a point in time that the world would be so over populated we would all starve. They were frantically trying to learn how to farm the sea etc. I think about then was when they made the movie "solylent Green". Anyway finally China made a hard choice and limited the size of familys. Many other countries are so overpopulated now they have to have special laws about who can drive into the city. You have to buy an expensive permit to be allowed to drive your car into a city.

The Catholic church has always been against any sort of birth controls and I have seen many familys who are Catholic have ten children or more. Most people agree that having two children two children will not cause more over population. I dont know. But in any case, the goverment and most people agree that because of a boom in poplulation is now about to cause major problems in providing a pension to people who are too old to work. Do we really want another baby boom?

There are those, mostly on the right, who are opposed to birth control and to the morning after pill and to the government providing condoms or sex education. Why? Are they wanting to cause over population? If so why? Is it for making cheap labor? Are they looking ahead to providing a source of cheap labor for manufacturers? China is already doing that. And technology is doing that.

I think people should be applauded for trying to control population.


Woo! Okie! BTW, dija know that by 2050 we are supposed to have a pop of 12 billion people?
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When Does Human Life Begin?

Post by Accountable »

FlatBlob;467375 wrote: I'm pro-choice
Doesn't answer my question. I'm pro-choice too! :-6
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When Does Human Life Begin?

Post by FlatBlob »

Accountable;467383 wrote: Doesn't answer my question. I'm pro-choice too! :-6


I don't like the term pro-life. I am for the right to an abortion. The term prolife is a catch 22–If I say: "I'm not pro-life" it makes it sound like I thing foetuses younger than 4 months are concious and I'm just evil. But in pro-lifer terms, I'm not pro-life. :driving:

How do you like my random smilie back there?
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When Does Human Life Begin?

Post by Accountable »

I often wonder why people that label themselves as pro-choice disregard the responsibilities that go with choice.
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When Does Human Life Begin?

Post by FlatBlob »

Accountable;467392 wrote: I often wonder why people that label themselves as pro-choice disregard the responsibilities that go with choice.


I don't really understand?

Oh. I understand. but from a male metaphor, imagine you contacted a testicular cancer of some kind so they sliced em' (eeeergh!) without your agreement (again: Gaaaah!) I realize the bacwardsness of that, but think of it.
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When Does Human Life Begin?

Post by Okie »

Accountable;467383 wrote: Doesn't answer my question. I'm pro-choice too! :-6


Glad to hear it. I have seen many times over the years that young girls got pregant and found some person to do an abortion for her in dirty back alleys etc and many died from infection and most could never have a child if they did live. I think if we impose a lot of hard laws on girls they will again go back to doing the same. Did you know that Bush just appointed a man to head up some office I cant recall that has to do with family planning and this man has already said he is opposed to birth control.It just will not work to assume that abstinence will work. It wont. I mean to say, kids will not abstain. Too many hormones rushing around inside them. If they are not educated or not able to get birth control pills they will do it anyway.
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When Does Human Life Begin?

Post by weber »

FlatBlob;467355 wrote: The sperm isn't alive, is it? does it reproduce by itself? Does it consume? Is the egg alive? Does it have a mind? no on both of those. So if they smash into each other and one breaks, all this means is we've made 2 cells, not one. What pereplexes me is that The "pro-life" stand point is often adopted by the religion that has killed millions of people so that a 2 then 4 then 8 celled organism can evolve (ooh, the e-word) into a human after NINE MONTHS.


I was not speaking of the sperm all by itself. Nor was I speaking of the egg all by itself. I was speaking of them united together one with nothing added but food, grows in the womb, is born, grows to adult life....nothing added but food, nourishment. Nothing added....it is all there once the sperm and egg unite. Everything is there.....we just grow from there, all of us, from an egg and a sperm united.
miriam:yh_flower



Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity.

.................Charles Mingus



http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/enter.cfm?
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When Does Human Life Begin?

Post by FlatBlob »

weber;467398 wrote: I was not speaking of the sperm all by itself. Nor was I speaking of the egg all by itself. I was speaking of them united together one with nothing added but food, grows in the womb, is born, grows to adult life....nothing added but food, nourishment. Nothing added....it is all there once the sperm and egg unite. Everything is there.....we just grow from there, all of us, from an egg and a sperm united.


And this is adderssed in my post.
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