The ethics of theft.

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 8:41 pm

Florrie wrote: A change in the law is being considered regarding fixed penalties for shoplifters with no criminal record attached!!!! Someone stealing thousands from a bank will be hunted down, tried in court and sent to prison.

Unless criminal assault is involved, can anyone think of a good reason why stealing a packet of crisps from a supermarket is any less a crime than a wad of cash from a bank.

Philosophically if I take a paper clip from the office, am I as morally wrong as the crisp stealer or bank thief. Notice I don't use 'robber' as I believe that implies a degree of force.
In your opinion then Florrie, theft is theft, correct? I disagree. I think the motive and circumstances for the crime must be taken into consideration. Most shop lifting, I believe is committed by females, and many times it is spur of the moment. Bank robberies on the other hand are generally planned. I read a article by some psychologists that said that the majority of females committing shoplifing offenses suffered from sexual dysfunction.

Der Wulf · Post by **Der Wulf** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 9:58 pm

Whoa there partner, shoplifting involves an object that is openly displayed and readily acessable to the shopper. the item is hidden by the shopper, and secretly removed. I don't know about banks in your area, but in mine, shoppers are not allowed to fondle the money --force or the threat of force is necessary to liberate the cash.

IMO theft is theft, motivation is irrevalent to the definition.

Sexual dysfunction as a motive for female shoplifting??, is product selection involved, maybe a vibrater, but a package of Ding Dongs??:-3

chicagolosina · Post by **chicagolosina** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 2:28 am

What a complicated issue! Good topic Florrie!

Theft is criminal and should be treated as such. Degrees of punishment however should vary.

Some may have a problem with that statement if someone were caught stealing a basic need, (food, clothing, etc) but in the developed world there are so many resources out there to provide you with the necessities.

abbey · Post by **abbey** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 2:43 am

What's the idea behind this, is it to free the courts from petty crime or to give first offenders a second chance?

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:21 pm

ok, i do not even comprehend the words 'ethics' and 'theft' used in conjunction with each other. they are diametrically opposed. i did two solid years undercover busting shoplifters, and i wasn't after someone stealing crisps or candy bars. i was after the pros, and it's not all females, there is NO shoplifter demographic, you would be amazed at some of the people i busted. people who walked out with thousands of $ in merchandise. people who worked in the stores and stole big-ticket items as well as cash. people who used their little children as concealment to steal. i could write reams on shoplifters! 90% of my busts were at the felony level. this costs retailers and consumers billions each year. and also, shoplifters do come in with the intent, i can spot them a mile away. and do i care if they have emotional problems? nope.

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:30 pm

lady cop wrote: ok, i do not even comprehend the words 'ethics' and 'theft' used in conjunction with each other. they are diametrically opposed. i did two solid years undercover busting shoplifters, and i wasn't after someone stealing crisps or candy bars. i was after the pros, and it's not all females, there is NO shoplifter demographic, you would be amazed at some of the people i busted. people who walked out with thousands of $ in merchandise. people who worked in the stores and stole big-ticket items as well as cash. people who used their little children as concealment to steal. i could write reams on shoplifters! 90% of my busts were at the felony level. this costs retailers and consumers billions each year. and also, shoplifters do come in with the intent, i can spot them a mile away. and do i care if they have emotional problems? nope.
OK---I sure won't argue with those in the know, but wouldn't you agree that there are different degrees of theft, and that they must be considered on an individual basis as far as punishment is concerned?

abbey · Post by **abbey** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:37 pm

I'm not too sure, but i think in Britain its always been left up to the inspector at the police station that determines wether or not the person that has been caught shoplifting should have charges pressed against them or not.

So Florries original post did'nt entirely surprise me, getting a slap on the wrist (caution) is'nt a new thing in Britain.

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:39 pm

Lon wrote: OK---I sure won't argue with those in the know, but wouldn't you agree that there are different degrees of theft, and that they must be considered on an individual basis as far as punishment is concerned? this issue is black and white to me, there are two levels of theft, petty and grand. clearly the guy who swiped some baseball cards and has no priors isn't going to prison. but the habitual offender, the felony big money offender. every crime has degrees,murder has degrees. theft has degrees.sexual offenses have degrees.

CARLA · Post by **CARLA** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 2:25 pm

If you do the crime be prepared to do the time..

Sorry for me a THEFT IS A THEFT.. I don't care what it is.. It's not yours, you took it that's breaking the law.. We have allowed to much to be explained away in our Courts and Laws.. :-5

I was raised with values, morals, and the knowledge of what is right and wrong period. I screw up I know I will pay the price, just that simple. I won't plead not guilty, when I'm guilty as hell.. Nor would I expect a defense attorney to get me off.. I DID IT I WILL TAKE MY PUNISHMENT AS DEEMED ME BY MY PEERS IN A COURT OF LAW..

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 8:17 am

Theft is theft whether it's 2p or 2million. First time offenders a fine is probably enough, our jails are overfull as it is, the room is needed for serious criminals. They now have a crimonal record. hence from then on no credit, can't get a mortgage (till five years after which point they don't have to record it).

Professional thieves are a different ball game and very hard to catch. I also think anyone pleading not guilty and changing their mind at the last minute should receive stiffer sentences for wasting police time. Not to mention all those witnesses who have to take time off work to attend court just to go home again (I speak from experience)

Funniest shoplifter I was involved in catching was the local church of Scotland minister stealing ladies underwear. The store detectives could barely stop laughing long enough to arrest him.

Peg · Post by **Peg** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 8:31 am

I too was raised that if it doesn't belong to you, don't take it. If you take it, you also take the punishment. When I worked in a store, I always watched these 2 boys because I didn't trust them. Wouldn't you know it, the third boy that was with them, generally a good kid, took an 89 cent container of Pringles on a dare. It broke my heart to call the cops, but if I let him get away with it, God knows what he'd try to take next. You would not believe the people who said I should have let him go!

minks · Post by **minks** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 12:42 pm

Peg wrote: I too was raised that if it doesn't belong to you, don't take it. If you take it, you also take the punishment. When I worked in a store, I always watched these 2 boys because I didn't trust them. Wouldn't you know it, the third boy that was with them, generally a good kid, took an 89 cent container of Pringles on a dare. It broke my heart to call the cops, but if I let him get away with it, God knows what he'd try to take next. You would not believe the people who said I should have let him go!

And you know at that early an age it is going to have a positive impact. You did good.

As a kid I stole a gumball from the corner store, I was not caught by the shop owner but by my mother. She marched me right back there and made me confess and return it. The shop owner simply took the gumball and said ok that is fine but not my mother oh no no she, she went on and on to the shop owner and told him he had to tell me it was wrong what I did, not tell me it was ok, because I had committed a crime. I guess finally he did so just to get her outta the place, but to date I can't even harbor the thought of shoplifting. I had my moment of truth and theft is theft, but yes it should be puhished to the degree of the crime. I guess I should have done a day's hard labor in kiddie boot camp ahahahaha

Peg · Post by **Peg** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 4:06 pm

Our store owner did the same thing. He said to the kid, "That's okay". The mother wanted him to have her son come sweep the lot for a week or something to make up for what he had done. I really had to give her credit for that.

koan · Post by **koan** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 5:16 pm

I'm with ladycop as far as wondering how the words "ethics" and "theft" go together. There is no ethical theft.

How to expediate the courts is another matter. I trust they will screw it up. First time offender of theft under, say $100, should have a fine to pay. Theft under $1000 maybe some community service along with a fine. Repeat offenders and theft over $1000 would have to see court time to decide retribution effectively. IMHO.

Bravo to the mothers who insisted on teaching their kids about consequences early.

Post by **kensloft** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 10:55 pm

koan wrote: I'm with ladycop as far as wondering how the words "ethics" and "theft" go together. There is no ethical theft.

How to expediate the courts is another matter. I trust they will screw it up. First time offender of theft under, say $100, should have a fine to pay. Theft under $1000 maybe some community service along with a fine. Repeat offenders and theft over $1000 would have to see court time to decide retribution effectively. IMHO.

Bravo to the mothers who insisted on teaching their kids about consequences early.
When people make excuses for the theft of things based on food for the family etc there is the reality that the copy cats wil come into play for the slap on the wrist punishment. Just because you give an excuse doesn't mean that that is why you did it.

koan · Post by **koan** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 11:32 pm

People give excuse all the time already. A flat system based on first time offender and value of the merchandise would prevent excuses. Repeats and grand theft get to use their excuses again as per the current system. Problem is the flat rate system may deny the right to innocence until proven guilty in which case any one who wants to fight the charge still has to be allowed a trial. I'm not a lawyer.

greydeadhead · Post by **greydeadhead** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 6:53 am

Okay.. first of all if you walkout of a store without paying for an item.. it is theft. Very simple. So.. you have to pay for the consequences of your actions.. regardless. If there is no penalty for the actions. then hell, lets do it again. Besides aren't we law abiding citizens the ones that really do pay for the consequences of thier actions. I mean if someone walks out the door with a stores product, the store loses money.. so to make up for that loss the price tag goes up... and that is not even counting having go pay for security guards and other antitheft deterrents in the store. Yep.. lets face it, we are the ones paying for the lack of ethics that is becoming pervasive in todays society..