A Dutch moviemaker who outraged Muslims has been shot dead in a busy street.
Theo Van Gogh, a distant relative of artist Vincent Van Gogh, had made a controversial film about a Muslim woman being abused in an arranged marriage which led to death threats being made against him.
He had also written newspaper articles and books accusing Muslim religious leaders of being women haters.
www.unison.ie/
Shot Dead, film man who upset Muslims
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capt_buzzard
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Shot Dead, film man who upset Muslims
Another case of murder in the name of religion. :-1
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Pearl Harbor
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Shot Dead, film man who upset Muslims
capt_buzzard wrote: A Dutch moviemaker who outraged Muslims has been shot dead in a busy street.
Theo Van Gogh, a distant relative of artist Vincent Van Gogh, had made a controversial film about a Muslim woman being abused in an arranged marriage which led to death threats being made against him.
He had also written newspaper articles and books accusing Muslim religious leaders of being women haters.
www.unison.ie/
Why aren't all the women's groups like NOW outraged about this? What about the tolerant "LEFT" in this country? Where are they? I'm sure a group hug would cure all ills and provide tolerance and love amongst these Muslims and Pagans.
Theo Van Gogh, a distant relative of artist Vincent Van Gogh, had made a controversial film about a Muslim woman being abused in an arranged marriage which led to death threats being made against him.
He had also written newspaper articles and books accusing Muslim religious leaders of being women haters.
www.unison.ie/
Why aren't all the women's groups like NOW outraged about this? What about the tolerant "LEFT" in this country? Where are they? I'm sure a group hug would cure all ills and provide tolerance and love amongst these Muslims and Pagans.
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capt_buzzard
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Shot Dead, film man who upset Muslims
Because they have put their life in the hands of their saviour G.W.Bush. :-6
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Pearl Harbor
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Shot Dead, film man who upset Muslims
capt_buzzard wrote: Because they have put their life in the hands of their saviour G.W.Bush. :-6
This is making light of a real issue. President Bush is not their saviour.
The preaching of tolerance is so easy to do. I want to see once, in my lifetime, a tolerant leftist standing up for OTHERS outside of their little comfortable zones.
You won't see it though. It's never usually convenient. It's too easy to blame others, their situation, their government, the man, the anti-vegetarians, the capitalists, the evil big companies, god, the weather, and the conservatives.
This is making light of a real issue. President Bush is not their saviour.
The preaching of tolerance is so easy to do. I want to see once, in my lifetime, a tolerant leftist standing up for OTHERS outside of their little comfortable zones.
You won't see it though. It's never usually convenient. It's too easy to blame others, their situation, their government, the man, the anti-vegetarians, the capitalists, the evil big companies, god, the weather, and the conservatives.
Shot Dead, film man who upset Muslims
pearl harbour
The preaching of tolerance is so easy to do. I want to see once, in my lifetime, a tolerant leftist standing up for OTHERS outside of their little comfortable zones.
what exactly do yo mean by a tolerant leftist as opposed to say a tolerant christian or just somebody who is tolerant? In a UK context a centre leftist is a social democrat, the extreme left is a communist but I haven't a clue what a tolerant leftist is. I think we have more shades in the political spectrum than you do.
The preaching of tolerance is so easy to do. I want to see once, in my lifetime, a tolerant leftist standing up for OTHERS outside of their little comfortable zones.
what exactly do yo mean by a tolerant leftist as opposed to say a tolerant christian or just somebody who is tolerant? In a UK context a centre leftist is a social democrat, the extreme left is a communist but I haven't a clue what a tolerant leftist is. I think we have more shades in the political spectrum than you do.
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charles_r51
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Shot Dead, film man who upset Muslims
gmc wrote: pearl harbour
.
what exactly do yo mean by a tolerant leftist as opposed to say a tolerant christian or just somebody who is tolerant? In a UK context a centre leftist is a social democrat, the extreme left is a communist but I haven't a clue what a tolerant leftist is. I think we have more shades in the political spectrum than you do.
you mean blinders, don't you? tolerance is not a political shade, it's a mind-set. unfortunately, intolerance is political, and religious, and stupid, and has nothing to be proud of, and stupid, and even more stupid. from the starting statement, muslim intolerance is in full force. of course, since any imam, or assh**le muslim cleric can say who should die, no matter what the person did, he is a target for life, or until he's dead. of course this is tolerance to a muslim, but murder for the rest of the world.
:rolleyes: :-4
.
what exactly do yo mean by a tolerant leftist as opposed to say a tolerant christian or just somebody who is tolerant? In a UK context a centre leftist is a social democrat, the extreme left is a communist but I haven't a clue what a tolerant leftist is. I think we have more shades in the political spectrum than you do.
you mean blinders, don't you? tolerance is not a political shade, it's a mind-set. unfortunately, intolerance is political, and religious, and stupid, and has nothing to be proud of, and stupid, and even more stupid. from the starting statement, muslim intolerance is in full force. of course, since any imam, or assh**le muslim cleric can say who should die, no matter what the person did, he is a target for life, or until he's dead. of course this is tolerance to a muslim, but murder for the rest of the world.
:rolleyes: :-4-
nvalleyvee
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Shot Dead, film man who upset Muslims
capt_buzzard wrote: A Dutch moviemaker who outraged Muslims has been shot dead in a busy street.
Theo Van Gogh, a distant relative of artist Vincent Van Gogh, had made a controversial film about a Muslim woman being abused in an arranged marriage which led to death threats being made against him.
He had also written newspaper articles and books accusing Muslim religious leaders of being women haters.
www.unison.ie/
So what else is freaking new?!!!!
Theo Van Gogh, a distant relative of artist Vincent Van Gogh, had made a controversial film about a Muslim woman being abused in an arranged marriage which led to death threats being made against him.
He had also written newspaper articles and books accusing Muslim religious leaders of being women haters.
www.unison.ie/
So what else is freaking new?!!!!
The growth of knowledge depends entirely on disagreement..........Karl R. Popper
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charles_r51
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Shot Dead, film man who upset Muslims
nvalleyvee wrote: So what else is freaking new?!!!!
not much. most other religions did the same thing, but eventually grew out of it.
:-4
not much. most other religions did the same thing, but eventually grew out of it.
:-4Shot Dead, film man who upset Muslims
capt_buzzard wrote: A Dutch moviemaker who outraged Muslims has been shot dead in a busy street.
Theo Van Gogh, a distant relative of artist Vincent Van Gogh, had made a controversial film about a Muslim woman being abused in an arranged marriage which led to death threats being made against him.
He had also written newspaper articles and books accusing Muslim religious leaders of being women haters.
www.unison.ie/
Why is it only Muslims who seem to murder those who upset them on religious matters? I never read of Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, or members of any other religious group who make a habit of murder like this. We ought to speak the truth on this matter: those who murder others for offending their religious beliefs seem to invariably turn out to be Muslim.
The question isn't why we collectively can't be more tolerant, or why can't religious people be more tolerant, but the real question is this: Why can't Muslims be more tolerant of others?
Theo Van Gogh, a distant relative of artist Vincent Van Gogh, had made a controversial film about a Muslim woman being abused in an arranged marriage which led to death threats being made against him.
He had also written newspaper articles and books accusing Muslim religious leaders of being women haters.
www.unison.ie/
Why is it only Muslims who seem to murder those who upset them on religious matters? I never read of Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, or members of any other religious group who make a habit of murder like this. We ought to speak the truth on this matter: those who murder others for offending their religious beliefs seem to invariably turn out to be Muslim.
The question isn't why we collectively can't be more tolerant, or why can't religious people be more tolerant, but the real question is this: Why can't Muslims be more tolerant of others?
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charles_r51
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Shot Dead, film man who upset Muslims
seekerw wrote: Why is it only Muslims who seem to murder those who upset them on religious matters? I never read of Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, or members of any other religious group who make a habit of murder like this. We ought to speak the truth on this matter: those who murder others for offending their religious beliefs seem to invariably turn out to be Muslim.
The question isn't why we collectively can't be more tolerant, or why can't religious people be more tolerant, but the real question is this: Why can't Muslims be more tolerant of others?
you are missing the point. intolerance in any form is a problem. religious intolerance has been nearly eliminated among all religions except among muslim. they choose to deny anyone the right to an opinion, just because they don't like it and will require that person be killed to prevent that opinion from being spoken out loud and promising to reward the murderer with glorious heavenly rewards for murder. there is no social or religious belief system which makes murder something to be rewarded except islam. they claim to be a peace-loving and gentle religion but are really just a group of murderous animals. the worst part is the fatwa, or religious decree, which can be utterred and enforced by anyone regardless of who it hurts. the muslim world lacks any morality at all and has absolutely nothing good to offer anyone, not even to themselves.:-4 :-4
The question isn't why we collectively can't be more tolerant, or why can't religious people be more tolerant, but the real question is this: Why can't Muslims be more tolerant of others?
you are missing the point. intolerance in any form is a problem. religious intolerance has been nearly eliminated among all religions except among muslim. they choose to deny anyone the right to an opinion, just because they don't like it and will require that person be killed to prevent that opinion from being spoken out loud and promising to reward the murderer with glorious heavenly rewards for murder. there is no social or religious belief system which makes murder something to be rewarded except islam. they claim to be a peace-loving and gentle religion but are really just a group of murderous animals. the worst part is the fatwa, or religious decree, which can be utterred and enforced by anyone regardless of who it hurts. the muslim world lacks any morality at all and has absolutely nothing good to offer anyone, not even to themselves.:-4 :-4
Shot Dead, film man who upset Muslims
charles_r51 wrote: you are missing the point. intolerance in any form is a problem. religious intolerance has been nearly eliminated among all religions except among muslim. they choose to deny anyone the right to an opinion, just because they don't like it and will require that person be killed to prevent that opinion from being spoken out loud and promising to reward the murderer with glorious heavenly rewards for murder. there is no social or religious belief system which makes murder something to be rewarded except islam. they claim to be a peace-loving and gentle religion but are really just a group of murderous animals. the worst part is the fatwa, or religious decree, which can be utterred and enforced by anyone regardless of who it hurts. the muslim world lacks any morality at all and has absolutely nothing good to offer anyone, not even to themselves.:-4 :-4
Charles,
If you were replying to me, I think there's some mistake with your first sentence. Didn't I say exactly what you said in the remainder of your quoted post?
Charles,
If you were replying to me, I think there's some mistake with your first sentence. Didn't I say exactly what you said in the remainder of your quoted post?
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anastrophe
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Shot Dead, film man who upset Muslims
charles_r51 wrote: you are missing the point. intolerance in any form is a problem. religious intolerance has been nearly eliminated among all religions except among muslim. they choose to deny anyone the right to an opinion, just because they don't like it and will require that person be killed to prevent that opinion from being spoken out loud and promising to reward the murderer with glorious heavenly rewards for murder. there is no social or religious belief system which makes murder something to be rewarded except islam. they claim to be a peace-loving and gentle religion but are really just a group of murderous animals. the worst part is the fatwa, or religious decree, which can be utterred and enforced by anyone regardless of who it hurts. the muslim world lacks any morality at all and has absolutely nothing good to offer anyone, not even to themselves.:-4 :-4
you were saying something about intolerance? oh, i guess not. i guess it's perfectly tolerant to say that all muslims are murderous animals.
:yh_silly
you were saying something about intolerance? oh, i guess not. i guess it's perfectly tolerant to say that all muslims are murderous animals.
:yh_silly
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Shot Dead, film man who upset Muslims
RATS! I wanted to point that out to him! Guess what? If I were to make that same set of statements about Christians (I wouldn't, by the way....) people'd be all over me like feathers on a goose! And rightly so....
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
Shot Dead, film man who upset Muslims
anastrophe wrote: you were saying something about intolerance? oh, i guess not. i guess it's perfectly tolerant to say that all muslims are murderous animals.
:yh_silly
That's not what I said. I said that those who murder others who offend them for religious reasons seem to invariably end up to be Muslim. I didn't say what you inferred I said.
:yh_silly
That's not what I said. I said that those who murder others who offend them for religious reasons seem to invariably end up to be Muslim. I didn't say what you inferred I said.
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anastrophe
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seekerw wrote: That's not what I said. I said that those who murder others who offend them for religious reasons seem to invariably end up to be Muslim. I didn't say what you inferred I said.
uh, i inferred nothing.
seekerw wrote: they claim to be a peace-loving and gentle religion but are really just a group of murderous animals.
that's what you wrote. there's no mistaking it. is a generalization, and it's offensive by any measure.
uh, i inferred nothing.
seekerw wrote: they claim to be a peace-loving and gentle religion but are really just a group of murderous animals.
that's what you wrote. there's no mistaking it. is a generalization, and it's offensive by any measure.
[FONT=Franklin Gothic Medium][/FONT]
Shot Dead, film man who upset Muslims
Quote:
Originally Posted by seekerw
That's not what I said. I said that those who murder others who offend them for religious reasons seem to invariably end up to be Muslim. I didn't say what you inferred I said.
uh, i inferred nothing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by charles_r51 [NOT seekerw]
they claim to be a peace-loving and gentle religion but are really just a group of murderous animals.
that's what you wrote. there's no mistaking it. is a generalization, and it's offensive by any measure.
Anastrophe,
I did not post that second part. It was originally posted by Charles, today at 9:11 AM. Somehow his quote was inadvertently edited so that it said it was posted by me. (NOTE: I changed it above, as indicated.)
Originally Posted by seekerw
That's not what I said. I said that those who murder others who offend them for religious reasons seem to invariably end up to be Muslim. I didn't say what you inferred I said.
uh, i inferred nothing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by charles_r51 [NOT seekerw]
they claim to be a peace-loving and gentle religion but are really just a group of murderous animals.
that's what you wrote. there's no mistaking it. is a generalization, and it's offensive by any measure.
Anastrophe,
I did not post that second part. It was originally posted by Charles, today at 9:11 AM. Somehow his quote was inadvertently edited so that it said it was posted by me. (NOTE: I changed it above, as indicated.)
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anastrophe
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Shot Dead, film man who upset Muslims
okay. i'm utterly confused now. i don't know who wrote what. so i'll just bow out. my comments on what was said by WHOMEVER stand though.
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charles_r51
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Shot Dead, film man who upset Muslims
anastrophe wrote: you were saying something about intolerance? oh, i guess not. i guess it's perfectly tolerant to say that all muslims are murderous animals.
:yh_silly
i was pointing out the intolerance, and how it operated, and the result. would you say that all christians are kind and benevolent? individuals exist as individuals, not as what they are labeled as a greoup. as a group, my analysis was accurate, but as individuals, each is just that, an oindividual, untainted by the mass. being accurate in a description is not being intolerant, just truthful.:-4 :-4
:yh_silly
i was pointing out the intolerance, and how it operated, and the result. would you say that all christians are kind and benevolent? individuals exist as individuals, not as what they are labeled as a greoup. as a group, my analysis was accurate, but as individuals, each is just that, an oindividual, untainted by the mass. being accurate in a description is not being intolerant, just truthful.:-4 :-4
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charles_r51
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Shot Dead, film man who upset Muslims
Lulu2 wrote: RATS! I wanted to point that out to him! Guess what? If I were to make that same set of statements about Christians (I wouldn't, by the way....) people'd be all over me like feathers on a goose! And rightly so....
and i would point out to you that for several hundred years, christians were just as intolerant as is found amongst muslims today, and perhaps to an even greater degree. they finally grew out of it, but millions died before it came to that.:-4 :-4
and i would point out to you that for several hundred years, christians were just as intolerant as is found amongst muslims today, and perhaps to an even greater degree. they finally grew out of it, but millions died before it came to that.:-4 :-4
Shot Dead, film man who upset Muslims
seekerw wrote: Why is it only Muslims who seem to murder those who upset them on religious matters? I never read of Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, or members of any other religious group who make a habit of murder like this.
Then you ought to widen your reading?
Do a search on Hindu honour killings (where, for example, close family members will kill young ladies for refusing an arranged marriage).
In terms of a religions history, the Muslims are about at the stage that the Christians were when we burnt witches and the Inquisition tortured people until they confessed to heresy
Whilst it is totally wrong and unacceptable behaviour, it is by no means confined to any one group.
charles_r51 wrote: you are missing the point. intolerance in any form is a problem. religious intolerance has been nearly eliminated among all religions except among muslim. they choose to deny anyone the right to an opinion, just because they don't like it and will require that person be killed to prevent that opinion from being spoken out loud and promising to reward the murderer with glorious heavenly rewards for murder. there is no social or religious belief system which makes murder something to be rewarded except islam. they claim to be a peace-loving and gentle religion but are really just a group of murderous animals. the worst part is the fatwa, or religious decree, which can be utterred and enforced by anyone regardless of who it hurts. the muslim world lacks any morality at all and has absolutely nothing good to offer anyone, not even to themselves
As to the first half of your reply - you must be joking.
As to the second half, that proves it.
If "religious intolerance has been nearly eliminated among all religions except among muslim" then what the hell do you think "they claim to be a peace-loving and gentle religion but are really just a group of murderous animals." is?
Then you ought to widen your reading?
Do a search on Hindu honour killings (where, for example, close family members will kill young ladies for refusing an arranged marriage).
In terms of a religions history, the Muslims are about at the stage that the Christians were when we burnt witches and the Inquisition tortured people until they confessed to heresy
Whilst it is totally wrong and unacceptable behaviour, it is by no means confined to any one group.
charles_r51 wrote: you are missing the point. intolerance in any form is a problem. religious intolerance has been nearly eliminated among all religions except among muslim. they choose to deny anyone the right to an opinion, just because they don't like it and will require that person be killed to prevent that opinion from being spoken out loud and promising to reward the murderer with glorious heavenly rewards for murder. there is no social or religious belief system which makes murder something to be rewarded except islam. they claim to be a peace-loving and gentle religion but are really just a group of murderous animals. the worst part is the fatwa, or religious decree, which can be utterred and enforced by anyone regardless of who it hurts. the muslim world lacks any morality at all and has absolutely nothing good to offer anyone, not even to themselves
As to the first half of your reply - you must be joking.
As to the second half, that proves it.
If "religious intolerance has been nearly eliminated among all religions except among muslim" then what the hell do you think "they claim to be a peace-loving and gentle religion but are really just a group of murderous animals." is?
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charles_r51
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Shot Dead, film man who upset Muslims
seekerw wrote: Quote:
Originally Posted by seekerw
That's not what I said. I said that those who murder others who offend them for religious reasons seem to invariably end up to be Muslim. I didn't say what you inferred I said.
uh, i inferred nothing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by charles_r51 [NOT seekerw]
they claim to be a peace-loving and gentle religion but are really just a group of murderous animals.
that's what you wrote. there's no mistaking it. is a generalization, and it's offensive by any measure.
Anastrophe,
I did not post that second part. It was originally posted by Charles, today at 9:11 AM. Somehow his quote was inadvertently edited so that it said it was posted by me. (NOTE: I changed it above, as indicated.)
yes i wrote it. it may have been offensive to some, or even many, but one thing is sure- it was accurate.:-4 :-4
Originally Posted by seekerw
That's not what I said. I said that those who murder others who offend them for religious reasons seem to invariably end up to be Muslim. I didn't say what you inferred I said.
uh, i inferred nothing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by charles_r51 [NOT seekerw]
they claim to be a peace-loving and gentle religion but are really just a group of murderous animals.
that's what you wrote. there's no mistaking it. is a generalization, and it's offensive by any measure.
Anastrophe,
I did not post that second part. It was originally posted by Charles, today at 9:11 AM. Somehow his quote was inadvertently edited so that it said it was posted by me. (NOTE: I changed it above, as indicated.)
yes i wrote it. it may have been offensive to some, or even many, but one thing is sure- it was accurate.:-4 :-4
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charles_r51
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Shot Dead, film man who upset Muslims
Bryn Mawr wrote: Then you ought to widen your reading?
Do a search on Hindu honour killings (where, for example, close family members will kill young ladies for refusing an arranged marriage).
In terms of a religions history, the Muslims are about at the stage that the Christians were when we burnt witches and the Inquisition tortured people until they confessed to heresy
Whilst it is totally wrong and unacceptable behaviour, it is by no means confined to any one group.
on that, you are quite correct. i wonder how many others are able to understand that intolerance is still a part of all religions, and not just one.:-4 :-4
Do a search on Hindu honour killings (where, for example, close family members will kill young ladies for refusing an arranged marriage).
In terms of a religions history, the Muslims are about at the stage that the Christians were when we burnt witches and the Inquisition tortured people until they confessed to heresy
Whilst it is totally wrong and unacceptable behaviour, it is by no means confined to any one group.
on that, you are quite correct. i wonder how many others are able to understand that intolerance is still a part of all religions, and not just one.:-4 :-4
Shot Dead, film man who upset Muslims
charles_r51 wrote: on that, you are quite correct. i wonder how many others are able to understand that intolerance is still a part of all religions, and not just one.:-4 :-4
Then why your statement that "religious intolerance has been nearly eliminated among all religions except among muslim"?
Then why your statement that "religious intolerance has been nearly eliminated among all religions except among muslim"?
Shot Dead, film man who upset Muslims
charles_r51 wrote: yes i wrote it. it may have been offensive to some, or even many, but one thing is sure- it was accurate.:-4 :-4
I deny the accuracy of "they claim to be a peace-loving and gentle religion but are really just a group of murderous animals." - that's just hate, not truth.
I deny the accuracy of "they claim to be a peace-loving and gentle religion but are really just a group of murderous animals." - that's just hate, not truth.
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charles_r51
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Shot Dead, film man who upset Muslims
Bryn Mawr wrote: Then why your statement that "religious intolerance has been nearly eliminated among all religions except among muslim"?
simple. intolerance has almost disappeared from most religions, but still exists in all. the muslim religion has not even come anywhere near becoming more tolerant of what others religious views are. others at least have come to accept that other religions have to be dealt with in a civil manner. :-4 :-4
simple. intolerance has almost disappeared from most religions, but still exists in all. the muslim religion has not even come anywhere near becoming more tolerant of what others religious views are. others at least have come to accept that other religions have to be dealt with in a civil manner. :-4 :-4
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charles_r51
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Shot Dead, film man who upset Muslims
Bryn Mawr wrote: I deny the accuracy of "they claim to be a peace-loving and gentle religion but are really just a group of murderous animals." - that's just hate, not truth.
i know what drives them, and it will get far worse before it will change. you may call it hate, i don't. they are being led down a deadly path and don't yet realize it. i do, and i feel sorrow that it has begun. were that it was not so, but it is.:-4 :-4
nite all, i have to depart. until another day!
i know what drives them, and it will get far worse before it will change. you may call it hate, i don't. they are being led down a deadly path and don't yet realize it. i do, and i feel sorrow that it has begun. were that it was not so, but it is.:-4 :-4
nite all, i have to depart. until another day!
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RedGlitter
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Shot Dead, film man who upset Muslims
Grr. Are all muslims evil people? No. Are all muslims misled? Possibly.
That said, I am not offended by any of these remarks commenting on the misled and intolerant ways of muslims as a lot. I think it's great to be tolerant of another groups beliefs as long as they are not hurting people or animals in practicing their beliefs. (yes I said animals and that includes a whole lot of religions and I am aware of that) I get tired of the word hate being applied every time someone says something another deems intolerant. PC is not a good thing when it stops people from using their own minds and calling it as they see it. Call it a stereotype if you want but it doesn't warrant the hate label. All that does is cheapen the word and concept of hate so it means less to us when we really see it. I am not impressed with the muslim religion as a whole. I'm not impressed with certain other religions as a whole either, so this isn't a diatribe against muslims. I happen to agree that the muslim concept overall does not seem to be one of peace, love and tolerance. Why do I feel this way? I must base it on what I have seen. The same as any reasonable person does. SHOW me I am mistaken. If I see I am mistaken, I will change my opinion. But don't just tell me I am spouting hate and ignorance because you're PC and that's the acceptable way to think. Show me I'm wrong.
I agree that there are many peaceful muslims. But to deny obvious facts about their practices (or any religion's practices) when it is in our collective face is foolish and wrong.
That said, I am not offended by any of these remarks commenting on the misled and intolerant ways of muslims as a lot. I think it's great to be tolerant of another groups beliefs as long as they are not hurting people or animals in practicing their beliefs. (yes I said animals and that includes a whole lot of religions and I am aware of that) I get tired of the word hate being applied every time someone says something another deems intolerant. PC is not a good thing when it stops people from using their own minds and calling it as they see it. Call it a stereotype if you want but it doesn't warrant the hate label. All that does is cheapen the word and concept of hate so it means less to us when we really see it. I am not impressed with the muslim religion as a whole. I'm not impressed with certain other religions as a whole either, so this isn't a diatribe against muslims. I happen to agree that the muslim concept overall does not seem to be one of peace, love and tolerance. Why do I feel this way? I must base it on what I have seen. The same as any reasonable person does. SHOW me I am mistaken. If I see I am mistaken, I will change my opinion. But don't just tell me I am spouting hate and ignorance because you're PC and that's the acceptable way to think. Show me I'm wrong.
I agree that there are many peaceful muslims. But to deny obvious facts about their practices (or any religion's practices) when it is in our collective face is foolish and wrong.
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charles_r51
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Shot Dead, film man who upset Muslims
RedGlitter wrote: Grr. Are all muslims evil people? No. Are all muslims misled? Possibly.
That said, I am not offended by any of these remarks commenting on the misled and intolerant ways of muslims as a lot. I think it's great to be tolerant of another groups beliefs as long as they are not hurting people or animals in practicing their beliefs. (yes I said animals and that includes a whole lot of religions and I am aware of that) I get tired of the word hate being applied every time someone says something another deems intolerant. PC is not a good thing when it stops people from using their own minds and calling it as they see it. Call it a stereotype if you want but it doesn't warrant the hate label. All that does is cheapen the word and concept of hate so it means less to us when we really see it. I am not impressed with the muslim religion as a whole. I'm not impressed with certain other religions as a whole either, so this isn't a diatribe against muslims. I happen to agree that the muslim concept overall does not seem to be one of peace, love and tolerance. Why do I feel this way? I must base it on what I have seen. The same as any reasonable person does. SHOW me I am mistaken. If I see I am mistaken, I will change my opinion. But don't just tell me I am spouting hate and ignorance because you're PC and that's the acceptable way to think. Show me I'm wrong.
I agree that there are many peaceful muslims. But to deny obvious facts about their practices (or any religion's practices) when it is in our collective face is foolish and wrong.
well said.:-4 :-4
That said, I am not offended by any of these remarks commenting on the misled and intolerant ways of muslims as a lot. I think it's great to be tolerant of another groups beliefs as long as they are not hurting people or animals in practicing their beliefs. (yes I said animals and that includes a whole lot of religions and I am aware of that) I get tired of the word hate being applied every time someone says something another deems intolerant. PC is not a good thing when it stops people from using their own minds and calling it as they see it. Call it a stereotype if you want but it doesn't warrant the hate label. All that does is cheapen the word and concept of hate so it means less to us when we really see it. I am not impressed with the muslim religion as a whole. I'm not impressed with certain other religions as a whole either, so this isn't a diatribe against muslims. I happen to agree that the muslim concept overall does not seem to be one of peace, love and tolerance. Why do I feel this way? I must base it on what I have seen. The same as any reasonable person does. SHOW me I am mistaken. If I see I am mistaken, I will change my opinion. But don't just tell me I am spouting hate and ignorance because you're PC and that's the acceptable way to think. Show me I'm wrong.
I agree that there are many peaceful muslims. But to deny obvious facts about their practices (or any religion's practices) when it is in our collective face is foolish and wrong.
well said.:-4 :-4
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DesignerGal
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Shot Dead, film man who upset Muslims
seekerw wrote: Why is it only Muslims who seem to murder those who upset them on religious matters? I never read of Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, or members of any other religious group who make a habit of murder like this.
Eric Robert Rudolph blew up abortion clinics and gay bars in the name of religion. And I do believe some of those innocent people died.
edited to add: and he WASNT a MUSLIM!
Eric Robert Rudolph blew up abortion clinics and gay bars in the name of religion. And I do believe some of those innocent people died.
edited to add: and he WASNT a MUSLIM!
HBIC
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charles_r51
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Shot Dead, film man who upset Muslims
DesignerGal wrote: Eric Robert Rudolph blew up abortion clinics and gay bars in the name of religion. And I do believe some of those innocent people died.
edited to add: and he WASNT a MUSLIM!
justification has always been a religous duty when one knows better.:-4 :-4 :-4
edited to add: and he WASNT a MUSLIM!
justification has always been a religous duty when one knows better.:-4 :-4 :-4
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Adam Zapple
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Shot Dead, film man who upset Muslims
Ted Kaczynski wasn't Muslim either, he was an environmentalist. Instances of intolerance can be found everywhere, but violence is taught in some muslim sects at an early age as a way to paradise. Some mosques and clerics recruit terrorists. That's the difference.
Shot Dead, film man who upset Muslims
DesignerGal wrote: Eric Robert Rudolph blew up abortion clinics and gay bars in the name of religion. And I do believe some of those innocent people died.
edited to add: and he WASNT a MUSLIM!
Rudolph is ONE person. If there had been only one or two terrorist attacks by Muslims, I wouldn't think it was an issue with Islam. But when you keep hearing about terrorist attacks continually, and threats of further attacks, in many different countries, over the last number of years, and all of them (except Timothy McVeigh's bombing of the federal building) have been orchestrated by Muslim extremists, well, that becomes statistically significant and not just attributable to individual "bad apples".
edited to add: and he WASNT a MUSLIM!
Rudolph is ONE person. If there had been only one or two terrorist attacks by Muslims, I wouldn't think it was an issue with Islam. But when you keep hearing about terrorist attacks continually, and threats of further attacks, in many different countries, over the last number of years, and all of them (except Timothy McVeigh's bombing of the federal building) have been orchestrated by Muslim extremists, well, that becomes statistically significant and not just attributable to individual "bad apples".
Shot Dead, film man who upset Muslims
seekerw wrote: Rudolph is ONE person. If there had been only one or two terrorist attacks by Muslims, I wouldn't think it was an issue with Islam. But when you keep hearing about terrorist attacks continually, and threats of further attacks, in many different countries, over the last number of years, and all of them (except Timothy McVeigh's bombing of the federal building) have been orchestrated by Muslim extremists, well, that becomes statistically significant and not just attributable to individual "bad apples".
You said never and an example was given to prove you wrong. If you want many examples then many will be given.
If you think that only Muslims are tought to hate (indeed, if you think that the Palestinians hate because they're Muslims) take a look at the following link. It's not so much for the original massacre of 27 people quietly at prayer but for the reaction afterwards :-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/685792.stm
You said never and an example was given to prove you wrong. If you want many examples then many will be given.
If you think that only Muslims are tought to hate (indeed, if you think that the Palestinians hate because they're Muslims) take a look at the following link. It's not so much for the original massacre of 27 people quietly at prayer but for the reaction afterwards :-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/685792.stm
Shot Dead, film man who upset Muslims
Bryn Mawr wrote: You said never and an example was given to prove you wrong. If you want many examples then many will be given.
If you think that only Muslims are tought to hate (indeed, if you think that the Palestinians hate because they're Muslims) take a look at the following link. It's not so much for the original massacre of 27 people quietly at prayer but for the reaction afterwards :-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/685792.stm
Of course, there are individuals of various faiths who carry out isolated violent attacks, usually either individually or in groups of two or three or so. But when there are organizations devoted to terrorism, which finance and carry out well-orchestrated attacks like simultaneous bombings of subways, embassies, and of course, 9/11, these organizations invariably turn out to be Muslim.
The state of Israel is very good about keeping militant Jews in check. Few of the Arab governments do the same about militant Muslims.
If you think that only Muslims are tought to hate (indeed, if you think that the Palestinians hate because they're Muslims) take a look at the following link. It's not so much for the original massacre of 27 people quietly at prayer but for the reaction afterwards :-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/685792.stm
Of course, there are individuals of various faiths who carry out isolated violent attacks, usually either individually or in groups of two or three or so. But when there are organizations devoted to terrorism, which finance and carry out well-orchestrated attacks like simultaneous bombings of subways, embassies, and of course, 9/11, these organizations invariably turn out to be Muslim.
The state of Israel is very good about keeping militant Jews in check. Few of the Arab governments do the same about militant Muslims.
Shot Dead, film man who upset Muslims
I think part of the problem becomes apparent if you do some basic research about the Qu'ran, Islamic tradition and history.
First of all just as in the Bible there are parts of the Qu'ran that conflict. The earlier parts (I mean chronologically as believed to have been given to Mohammed by the angel Gabriel) are much gentler and state that forcing someone to convert is a sin. Later in the Qu'ran and in the Haditha's this is contradicted by much more violent and intolerant language in regards to the spread of Islam by the sword, the conversion or killing of non-believers, and the conquest of the entire world by Islam. There is a great debate in the Muslim world and among its scholars about whether these later messages over write or invalidate the earlier messages. There are references cited in the Qu'ran which indicate that they do. Many believe they do, including the violent Jihadist groups. There are many moderate Muslims who do not agree with the these conclusions but their voices are being overwhelmed by the others.
It is blatantly unfair to lump all Muslims under the rubric of holy killers but is also naive not to acknowledge that there is a large and growing movement in the world that wishes other cultures and relgions ill.
Have I managed to stay up here on my fence?:D
First of all just as in the Bible there are parts of the Qu'ran that conflict. The earlier parts (I mean chronologically as believed to have been given to Mohammed by the angel Gabriel) are much gentler and state that forcing someone to convert is a sin. Later in the Qu'ran and in the Haditha's this is contradicted by much more violent and intolerant language in regards to the spread of Islam by the sword, the conversion or killing of non-believers, and the conquest of the entire world by Islam. There is a great debate in the Muslim world and among its scholars about whether these later messages over write or invalidate the earlier messages. There are references cited in the Qu'ran which indicate that they do. Many believe they do, including the violent Jihadist groups. There are many moderate Muslims who do not agree with the these conclusions but their voices are being overwhelmed by the others.
It is blatantly unfair to lump all Muslims under the rubric of holy killers but is also naive not to acknowledge that there is a large and growing movement in the world that wishes other cultures and relgions ill.
Have I managed to stay up here on my fence?:D
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
Shot Dead, film man who upset Muslims
Very nicely, KinkyZinky!
We've got to get off our collective fences about the ridiculous reluctance to "profile" when it's glaringly obvious that the majority of terrorist acts are being committed by young Muslim men! And, OF COURSE there are peaceful Muslims. But it is ludicrous to pretend that a violent core of loonies doesn't live in their midst.
We've got to get off our collective fences about the ridiculous reluctance to "profile" when it's glaringly obvious that the majority of terrorist acts are being committed by young Muslim men! And, OF COURSE there are peaceful Muslims. But it is ludicrous to pretend that a violent core of loonies doesn't live in their midst.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
Shot Dead, film man who upset Muslims
seekerw wrote: Of course, there are individuals of various faiths who carry out isolated violent attacks, usually either individually or in groups of two or three or so. But when there are organizations devoted to terrorism, which finance and carry out well-orchestrated attacks like simultaneous bombings of subways, embassies, and of course, 9/11, these organizations invariably turn out to be Muslim.
The state of Israel is very good about keeping militant Jews in check. Few of the Arab governments do the same about militant Muslims.
What like ETA, IRA, UDA, Red Brigade, Shining path, Two cathlic, one protestant two communist. Terrorist attacks are nothing new it is simply that the US has never had such an attack on home ground until recently and nor are terrorist organisations all muslim. Indeed two of the most vicious in recent times have both been christian involved in a conflict started by christians about christianity, I refer of course to the IRA and UDA. EtA are Basque, spain far from being intimidated by the threat of muslim terrorists they have been coping with terrorism for years.
posted by lulu
We've got to get off our collective fences about the ridiculous reluctance to "profile" when it's glaringly obvious that the majority of terrorist acts are being committed by young Muslim men! And, OF COURSE there are peaceful Muslims. But it is ludicrous to pretend that a violent core of loonies doesn't live in their midst.
How do you spot a muslim? Asian muslims are easy to spot but not all asians are muslim so how do you tell a bhuddist from a hindu or a muslim. If sikhs take their turbans off they look pakistani, so do indians come to that, I have a much travelled indian friend who is always searched in customs, particularly in america, because she happens to be asian and despite being catholic
All the ones from the middle east need is a fake passport and change of clothes and you would be unable to spot them if all you went by was appearance. It's silly and leaves security wide open.
The state of Israel is very good about keeping militant Jews in check. Few of the Arab governments do the same about militant Muslims.
What like ETA, IRA, UDA, Red Brigade, Shining path, Two cathlic, one protestant two communist. Terrorist attacks are nothing new it is simply that the US has never had such an attack on home ground until recently and nor are terrorist organisations all muslim. Indeed two of the most vicious in recent times have both been christian involved in a conflict started by christians about christianity, I refer of course to the IRA and UDA. EtA are Basque, spain far from being intimidated by the threat of muslim terrorists they have been coping with terrorism for years.
posted by lulu
We've got to get off our collective fences about the ridiculous reluctance to "profile" when it's glaringly obvious that the majority of terrorist acts are being committed by young Muslim men! And, OF COURSE there are peaceful Muslims. But it is ludicrous to pretend that a violent core of loonies doesn't live in their midst.
How do you spot a muslim? Asian muslims are easy to spot but not all asians are muslim so how do you tell a bhuddist from a hindu or a muslim. If sikhs take their turbans off they look pakistani, so do indians come to that, I have a much travelled indian friend who is always searched in customs, particularly in america, because she happens to be asian and despite being catholic
All the ones from the middle east need is a fake passport and change of clothes and you would be unable to spot them if all you went by was appearance. It's silly and leaves security wide open.
Shot Dead, film man who upset Muslims
seekerw wrote: Of course, there are individuals of various faiths who carry out isolated violent attacks, usually either individually or in groups of two or three or so. But when there are organizations devoted to terrorism, which finance and carry out well-orchestrated attacks like simultaneous bombings of subways, embassies, and of course, 9/11, these organizations invariably turn out to be Muslim.
The state of Israel is very good about keeping militant Jews in check. Few of the Arab governments do the same about militant Muslims.
You are totally ignoring the point I was making. Not only did the attack take place but, five years down the line, it is celebrated by (some of) the people as a wonderful thing.
It is not an isolated incident to be written off as an aberation but a symptom of an underlying malaise.
Terrorism is not exclusively Muslim and treating it as such is one of the main stumbling blocks to resolving the problem.
The state of Israel is very good about keeping militant Jews in check. Few of the Arab governments do the same about militant Muslims.
You are totally ignoring the point I was making. Not only did the attack take place but, five years down the line, it is celebrated by (some of) the people as a wonderful thing.
It is not an isolated incident to be written off as an aberation but a symptom of an underlying malaise.
Terrorism is not exclusively Muslim and treating it as such is one of the main stumbling blocks to resolving the problem.
Shot Dead, film man who upset Muslims
Bryn Mawr wrote: You are totally ignoring the point I was making. Not only did the attack take place but, five years down the line, it is celebrated by (some of) the people as a wonderful thing.
It is not an isolated incident to be written off as an aberation but a symptom of an underlying malaise.
Terrorism is not exclusively Muslim and treating it as such is one of the main stumbling blocks to resolving the problem.
What is the problem then Bryn Mawr? Is there some larger factor at work that is common to all the terrorism that is being missed?
It is not an isolated incident to be written off as an aberation but a symptom of an underlying malaise.
Terrorism is not exclusively Muslim and treating it as such is one of the main stumbling blocks to resolving the problem.
What is the problem then Bryn Mawr? Is there some larger factor at work that is common to all the terrorism that is being missed?
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
Shot Dead, film man who upset Muslims
zinkyusa wrote: What is the problem then Bryn Mawr? Is there some larger factor at work that is common to all the terrorism that is being missed?
Which part, para 2 or para 3?
The point I was saying was being missed was para 2. The fact that 5 years later a portion of the population came out onto the streets to celebrate the fact that the massacre had occured and lionise the suicide killer shows that it was not an isolated action.
Para 3 was intended to suggest that if we investigated the underlying causes for the terrorism instead of just writing it off as "they do it because they're Muslim and Muslims act that way" then we'd get a lot further in arriving at a solution.
Which part, para 2 or para 3?
The point I was saying was being missed was para 2. The fact that 5 years later a portion of the population came out onto the streets to celebrate the fact that the massacre had occured and lionise the suicide killer shows that it was not an isolated action.
Para 3 was intended to suggest that if we investigated the underlying causes for the terrorism instead of just writing it off as "they do it because they're Muslim and Muslims act that way" then we'd get a lot further in arriving at a solution.
Shot Dead, film man who upset Muslims
Bryn Mawr wrote: Which part, para 2 or para 3?
The point I was saying was being missed was para 2. The fact that 5 years later a portion of the population came out onto the streets to celebrate the fact that the massacre had occured and lionise the suicide killer shows that it was not an isolated action.
Para 3 was intended to suggest that if we investigated the underlying causes for the terrorism instead of just writing it off as "they do it because they're Muslim and Muslims act that way" then we'd get a lot further in arriving at a solution.
sorry I was referring to para 3.
are you suggesting there is a common cause(s) for terrorism that has been missed?
I think that religious terrorism (as in by Muslims) is fundamentally different than other kinds, in that most of the others have lesser objectives, achieving basic rights, independance etc, as opposed to the global spread by force of Islam.
The point I was saying was being missed was para 2. The fact that 5 years later a portion of the population came out onto the streets to celebrate the fact that the massacre had occured and lionise the suicide killer shows that it was not an isolated action.
Para 3 was intended to suggest that if we investigated the underlying causes for the terrorism instead of just writing it off as "they do it because they're Muslim and Muslims act that way" then we'd get a lot further in arriving at a solution.
sorry I was referring to para 3.
are you suggesting there is a common cause(s) for terrorism that has been missed?
I think that religious terrorism (as in by Muslims) is fundamentally different than other kinds, in that most of the others have lesser objectives, achieving basic rights, independance etc, as opposed to the global spread by force of Islam.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
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Adam Zapple
- Posts: 977
- Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 3:13 am
Shot Dead, film man who upset Muslims
zinkyusa wrote: sorry I was referring to para 3.
are you suggesting there is a common cause(s) for terrorism that has been missed?
I think that religious terrorism (as in by Muslims) is fundamentally different than other kinds, in that most of the others have lesser objectives, achieving basic rights, independance etc, as opposed to the global spread by force of Islam.
Nice point, zinky
are you suggesting there is a common cause(s) for terrorism that has been missed?
I think that religious terrorism (as in by Muslims) is fundamentally different than other kinds, in that most of the others have lesser objectives, achieving basic rights, independance etc, as opposed to the global spread by force of Islam.
Nice point, zinky
Shot Dead, film man who upset Muslims
zinkyusa wrote: sorry I was referring to para 3.
are you suggesting there is a common cause(s) for terrorism that has been missed?
I think that religious terrorism (as in by Muslims) is fundamentally different than other kinds, in that most of the others have lesser objectives, achieving basic rights, independance etc, as opposed to the global spread by force of Islam.
As I said, the missed referred to para 2.
I believe that the majority of what we are seeing as terrorism now is aimed at achieving basic rights and independance. The insurgencies in Afghanistan and Iraq, the troubles in Palestine and the Lebanon are not fundamentally religious any more than Ireland or Cyprus were. Yes, you have Osama and his cohorts but they are being empowered by the policies of the west, not weakened by them.
Take, for example, Turkey and Indonesia. Both large Muslim countries, both peaceful (apart from the internal attack on Bali and the internal dispute with the Kurds neither of which were part of any global war) and both examples that Muslim does not equal warmongering terrorists.
are you suggesting there is a common cause(s) for terrorism that has been missed?
I think that religious terrorism (as in by Muslims) is fundamentally different than other kinds, in that most of the others have lesser objectives, achieving basic rights, independance etc, as opposed to the global spread by force of Islam.
As I said, the missed referred to para 2.
I believe that the majority of what we are seeing as terrorism now is aimed at achieving basic rights and independance. The insurgencies in Afghanistan and Iraq, the troubles in Palestine and the Lebanon are not fundamentally religious any more than Ireland or Cyprus were. Yes, you have Osama and his cohorts but they are being empowered by the policies of the west, not weakened by them.
Take, for example, Turkey and Indonesia. Both large Muslim countries, both peaceful (apart from the internal attack on Bali and the internal dispute with the Kurds neither of which were part of any global war) and both examples that Muslim does not equal warmongering terrorists.
Shot Dead, film man who upset Muslims
Bryn Mawr wrote: As I said, the missed referred to para 2.
I believe that the majority of what we are seeing as terrorism now is aimed at achieving basic rights and independance. The insurgencies in Afghanistan and Iraq, the troubles in Palestine and the Lebanon are not fundamentally religious any more than Ireland or Cyprus were. Yes, you have Osama and his cohorts but they are being empowered by the policies of the west, not weakened by them.
Take, for example, Turkey and Indonesia. Both large Muslim countries, both peaceful (apart from the internal attack on Bali and the internal dispute with the Kurds neither of which were part of any global war) and both examples that Muslim does not equal warmongering terrorists.
What rights trying to be acheived in Iraq and Afghanistan? Not that I disagree with your characterization for the others.
I believe that the majority of what we are seeing as terrorism now is aimed at achieving basic rights and independance. The insurgencies in Afghanistan and Iraq, the troubles in Palestine and the Lebanon are not fundamentally religious any more than Ireland or Cyprus were. Yes, you have Osama and his cohorts but they are being empowered by the policies of the west, not weakened by them.
Take, for example, Turkey and Indonesia. Both large Muslim countries, both peaceful (apart from the internal attack on Bali and the internal dispute with the Kurds neither of which were part of any global war) and both examples that Muslim does not equal warmongering terrorists.
What rights trying to be acheived in Iraq and Afghanistan? Not that I disagree with your characterization for the others.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
Shot Dead, film man who upset Muslims
zinkyusa wrote: What rights trying to be acheived in Iraq and Afghanistan? Not that I disagree with your characterization for the others.
If your country had been invaded by a foreign power would you not fight on after the fall of the government?
If your country had been invaded by a foreign power would you not fight on after the fall of the government?
Shot Dead, film man who upset Muslims
Bryn Mawr wrote: If your country had been invaded by a foreign power would you not fight on after the fall of the government?
They're not fighting us much anymore. Much more fighting is going amongst the Iraqis themselves. Most deaths are now caused by Shia - Sunni violence...
Afghanistan is more about the Taliban trying to re-establish a power base in in the south than evicting the US or NATO..
They're not fighting us much anymore. Much more fighting is going amongst the Iraqis themselves. Most deaths are now caused by Shia - Sunni violence...
Afghanistan is more about the Taliban trying to re-establish a power base in in the south than evicting the US or NATO..
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
Shot Dead, film man who upset Muslims
zinkyusa wrote: They're not fighting us much anymore. Much more fighting is going amongst the Iraqis themselves. Most deaths are now caused by Shia - Sunni violence...
Afghanistan is more about the Taliban trying to re-establish a power base in in the south than evicting the US or NATO..
IRAQ Create a power vacuum and that's bound to happen - still not global domination
AFGHANISTAN Then that's moving into phase two - first the guerrilla war to weaken the invaders, then establish a power base away from their centre of power, then push.
Afghanistan is more about the Taliban trying to re-establish a power base in in the south than evicting the US or NATO..
IRAQ Create a power vacuum and that's bound to happen - still not global domination
AFGHANISTAN Then that's moving into phase two - first the guerrilla war to weaken the invaders, then establish a power base away from their centre of power, then push.
Shot Dead, film man who upset Muslims
Bryn Mawr wrote: IRAQ Create a power vacuum and that's bound to happen - still not global domination
AFGHANISTAN Then that's moving into phase two - first the guerrilla war to weaken the invaders, then establish a power base away from their centre of power, then push.
I agree neither one is about global domination. I think both countries are doomed to fragmentation at this point.
AFGHANISTAN Then that's moving into phase two - first the guerrilla war to weaken the invaders, then establish a power base away from their centre of power, then push.
I agree neither one is about global domination. I think both countries are doomed to fragmentation at this point.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
Shot Dead, film man who upset Muslims
zinkyusa wrote: I agree neither one is about global domination. I think both countries are doomed to fragmentation at this point.
Sadly, I agree with you.
Sadly, I agree with you.