Should suicide be legal?

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 12:24 am

I am curious what you all think about this...?

Do you feel an individual owns his life? Does God own the person's life? Is suicide a crime against God? A crime against society? Not a crime at all?

What do you think?

This is my first poll so I hope I'm doing it correctly.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 2:44 am

This is a very delicate subject. Once a person has committed suicide, there's no coming back (not as yet as far as I know at any rate).

Suicide needs a measure of control. The type of suicide that should be discouraged are those carried out because the suicidee feels life has failed them. Quite often, this is just a matter of perspective. Mental conditions can also make people feel suicidal. But these people can be helped as well. Although, suicide should still be an option open to them.

Suicide can leave the remaining people devastated as often, suicide is committed without discussing it with others first. This is the important issue. Discussion. In a lot of cases there are alternative and beter options. Occasionally, suicide is the best option.

What we don't want are suicides carried out in despair, using grotesque methods. Clearing up this kind of mess can leave a psychological scar.

A more considered policy is required for euthanasia or suicide. A system that would keep it personal and private, providing discussion and support, with practical options. The final decision should remain with the individual suicidee.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 4:38 am

I clicked yes, but I really think there should be no law regarding suicide. What'll they do, arrest someone for attempted suicide?? What's the sentence on that?

[smilie=4,14,12] *strongly resisting the urge to recommend it be a capital offense*

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 5:07 am

Accountable wrote: I clicked yes, but I really think there should be no law regarding suicide. What'll they do, arrest someone for attempted suicide?? What's the sentence on that?

[smilie=4,14,12] *strongly resisting the urge to recommend it be a capital offense*

:wah: I just got that, Accountable.

I have been looking for suicide law information on various states, including mine (AZ) and all I am able to find are laws and info on *assisted* suicide.

Marie5656 · Post by **Marie5656** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 5:44 am

Accountable wrote: I clicked yes, but I really think there should be no law regarding suicide. What'll they do, arrest someone for attempted suicide?? What's the sentence on that?

[smilie=4,14,12] *strongly resisting the urge to recommend it be a capital offense*

Resistance is futile, so I will say it...What are they gonna do? Give them the death penalty???

The only sad thing, if a death is ruled a suicide, most, if not all, insurance companies will not pay death benefits. I voted yes, though.

cherandbuster · Post by **cherandbuster** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 5:46 am

I think euthanasia is an acceptable choice for those who are terminally ill. It should be an option for those who suffer with no hope of getting well.

I have absolutelly no qualms about that.

If I had Lou Gehrig's Disease, I'd be the first to try it.

koan · Post by **koan** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 7:55 am

Accountable wrote: ...I really think there should be no law regarding suicide. ...

^

|

Yeah, that!

weber · Post by **weber** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 8:43 am

cherandbuster wrote: I think euthanasia is an acceptable choice for those who are terminally ill. It should be an option for those who suffer with no hope of getting well.

I have absolutelly no qualms about that.

If I had Lou Gehrig's Disease, I'd be the first to try it.

But Cher

Most of these diseases disable a person to the point where they can't do it for themselves as you speak. They require someone to do it for them. That's euthanasia, requiring someone to assist you to die or sometimes said as killing you. I find it hard to know what to think. My heart goes out to someone who assists in the death of a loved one who is a mere vegetable and my heart goes out to someone desperate enough to kill themselves or try. It is a hard call.:-1

weber · Post by **weber** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 8:57 am

I can't figure out how suicide can be made legal or not. I know it is a sin against God because He says Thou shall not kill and suicide is killing yourself. But if a person kills themself, how do you try a dead person. And if a person fails in suicide, the embarrassment of discovering one is not dead I think would be punishment enough.:-1

cherandbuster · Post by **cherandbuster** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:26 am

miriam wrote: I can't figure out how suicide can be made legal or not. I know it is a sin against God because He says Thou shall not kill and suicide is killing yourself. But if a person kills themself, how do you try a dead person. And if a person fails in suicide, the embarrassment of discovering one is not dead I think would be punishment enough.:-1

Hi Miriam --

My opinion on this subject is not from a religious point of view, but rather a moral and ethical one. Using my example of Lou Gehrig's Disease, I would not want to *waste away*, losing my bodily functions one by one, until I suffocated to death.

To me, that is inhumane.

And I think it should be well within *my rights* to do what I want with my body.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:37 am

cherandbuster wrote:

And I think it should be well within *my rights* to do what I want with my body.

I do anyway.

Babies_Mama00 · Post by **Babies_Mama00** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:08 am

How can you make it illigal?? Charge the person who has already killed themselves??

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 1:35 pm

Attempted suicide = attempted murder. I've heard people try to argue it.

weber · Post by **weber** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 6:15 pm

cherandbuster wrote: Hi Miriam --

My opinion on this subject is not from a religious point of view, but rather a moral and ethical one. Using my example of Lou Gehrig's Disease, I would not want to *waste away*, losing my bodily functions one by one, until I suffocated to death.

To me, that is inhumane.

And I think it should be well within *my rights* to do what I want with my body.

I don't know what I said to make you think that you had no right to end your life if you had some inhumane disease. I agree that you have a right to do with your body as you please.

My comment about sin with God was merely because OP questioned "with God".

I don't mess with other peoples' rights anymore. It isn't worth it.:-5

guppy · Post by **guppy** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 6:22 pm

i hate to say this, but assisted suicide happens everyday in hospitals. when the patient is near the end of life process, what the heck do you think is happening when the md. slowly increases the amount of morphine being dripped into the patient? it slowly decreases the heart rate and rate of breathing untill death occurrs. In other words it speeds up what might take days, weeks, or even months to happen. i have seen patients literally fight the drug right untill the very end. There are nurses who absolutely refuse to participate in this. sorry, but it happens all the time.

Lulu2 · Post by **Lulu2** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 6:29 pm

Of course, Guppy. And what a final kindness that is.

My uncle George had Parkinson's disease for decades and had almost no motor control whatsoever. My aunt Lucille tended him until she died and after that, he was put into a convalescent home. He had to be tied into his chair/bed or he'd fall out. This disease robs you of your body but leaves the mind intact.

Every time I'd visit he'd look me right in the eye and say "HELP ME DIE." I'll tell you the truth....I thought about it. I spoke with friends who were nurses and they both said the same thing..."Don't do it because they'll autopsy him and come after you."

I was afraid and I did nothing. Luckily for him, he only lived a few more months in that horrible condition.

You probably know what I think about people who're against assisted suicide. They've obviously never lived in my uncle George's condition! :rolleyes:

guppy · Post by **guppy** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 6:44 pm

LULU-i am all for assisted suicide. i am just pointing out that it happens everyday and it is just not openly admitted to. it is charted as pain management. i never refused to carry out doctor's orders. i agree that it is the kindest thing to do in the end.

guppy · Post by **guppy** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 6:45 pm

i am sorry that u had to watch your uncle suffer like that Lulu. (a hug for you)

Lulu2 · Post by **Lulu2** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 6:47 pm

Thanks, Guppy....when my partner of many years died of COPD, I saw the increase in morphine and understood, without being told, what the hospice people were doing. It was a great kindness...quiet and unremarked.

guppy · Post by **guppy** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 6:52 pm

remember, how a patient ultimately dies is often because of the attitudes of the family that surrounds the patient. the dead cannot sue. unfortunatley the living can and do. if there is controversy over any treatment being given the doctor will more than likely choose the more aggressive route. in other words, prolong the suffering. it is sad , but true.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 3:27 am

Assisted suicide means the patient wants to die. Guppy, you didn't say whether the patient gave any indication one way or the other. With me, it would definitely be assisted suicide, because I don't want to drag a useless life out like that. But to otherwise increase pain management until it kills them before the disease does is murder.

An excellent reason to have your wishes known well ahead of time, dontha think?

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 3:45 am

I'm sorry Guys for not making this a better topic. I'm glad you're taking it where it needs to go, thanks!

What I meant by should it be legal...obviously they're not going to charge the dead but in most states as I am aware, attempted (failed) suicide is illegal. That's where my question was going. For myself, this is probably not a surprise to any of you :rolleyes: I think people should have a right to end their own life even for what could be deemed a stupid reason. I do realize how bad that is if they're going to leave behind a child or spouse and people would say how selfish that is, but unless you're ill, you're probably not in your right mind anyway.

As for assisted suicide or euthanasia, I support that. I think to prevent a person from ending their misery (if they want to do so) is selfish and cruel.

Who was it that mentioned pain management as a euphemism for actual death inducement? I'm sorry I can't see you from here but you made me think. I hate to bring it up here but I lost my mom this June. She had cancer throughout her body, including her brain, back and stomach. Her wishes were to be let go and I always knew that. They had been giving her morphine and some other pain drugs I can't recall and the pain would not cease. When she started to go the doctor came in and asked what I wanted to do and I told him to make her as comfortable as possible and let her go. So they hooked her up to a morphine drip. Up until now, I had thought it was only for her pain. That it may have been used to help her death along never occurred to me. :-2

Lulu- I am sorry.

Lulu2 · Post by **Lulu2** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 6:49 am

" it is not ethical to kill oneself but it is more ethical to surive."

HELEFRA, I'm so very sorry you went through times of depression and such an ordeal! It seems you've managed to "come back" and I'm happy about that. I might take issue with your statement, above.

"Ethics" might not enter into decisions about terminating one's pain or end of life.

RED I'm sorry for your loss, too. Losing one's mother is a unique thing...unlike any other loss I'm aware of and hard to describe. I understand, though.

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:36 am

Lulu2 wrote: " it is not ethical to kill oneself but it is more ethical to surive."

HELEFRA, I'm so very sorry you went through times of depression and such an ordeal! It seems you've managed to "come back" and I'm happy about that. I might take issue with your statement, above.

"Ethics" might not enter into decisions about terminating one's pain or end of life.

RED I'm sorry for your loss, too. Losing one's mother is a unique thing...unlike any other loss I'm aware of and hard to describe. I understand, though.

Excellent, thoughtful points by everyone here. I think Helefra is right when she says it is more ethical to survive. I have fought depression much of my life and have been hospitalized three times due to major depressions. I have often contemplated suicide but never tried it. In my case I was more interested in killing the pain of the moment than really ending my life. I think the misery of depression is unimaginable to one who has not expreienced it. I have experienced severe physical pain at times in my life and it does not compare to the incomprensible demoralization of depression. In my case it would have been an unethical to kill myself. Today due to many reasons which I won't go into right now life is much betternow , unimaginable gifts have been forged from the pain, including ironcially, my sense of humor.

In the case of incurable physical pain I support the idea as long as the person is of sound mind when deciding. Don't ask me how you know I have no clue, but I don't like to judge for others in these kinds of decisions. All I can say if you haven't walked a mile in th persons shoes.....Bless you all, I mean it.:-4

CheshireCat · Post by **CheshireCat** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:46 am

zinkyusa wrote: Excellent, thoughtful points by everyone here. I think Helefra is right when she says it is more ethical to survive. I have fought depression much of my life and have been hospitalized three times due to major depressions. I have often contemplated suicide but never tried it. In my case I was more interested in killing the pain of the moment than really ending my life. I think the misery of depression is unimaginable to one who has not expreienced it. I have experienced severe physical pain at times in my life and it does not compare to the incomprensible demoralization of depression. In my case it would have been an unethical to kill myself. Today due to many reasons which I won't go into right now life is much betternow , unimaginable gifts have been forged from the pain, including ironcially, my sense of humor.

In the case of incurable physical pain I support the idea as long as the person is of sound mind when deciding. Don't ask me how you know I have no clue, but I don't like to judge for others in these kinds of decisions. All I can say if you haven't walked a mile in th persons shoes.....Bless you all, I mean it.:-4

Zinky!

I have also been hospitialized for depression. it is crippling, I actually made an attempt on my own life, which thank God did not work! It was a very low time in my life, in a terrible abusive relationship, very isolated, lonely. I felt trapped, no way out. ButI did get out and turn my self around. I do ok these days. It has made me stronger I believe. I came through it and I feel like I can handle anything now.

As far as euthinasia, tough decision. I would say I am in favor of it. For terminally ill people that are in pain and just lingering, yes. We do it for our animals, it's selfless, sometimes it's the best thing to do.

guppy · Post by **guppy** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:48 am

Zinky-i am glad that you have found something good out of your painful past. A sense o humor? that is fantastic. (a hug for you) i am sorry that you suffered so much though. i am glad , very glad, that you are still here among all the lovely people in the garden. :-4

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:49 am

Hi Helefra,

Please let me say that I am sorry you were in that position. I don't mean to sound trite, I am sincerely sorry. I have never attempted but about two years ago I was in a position where I had given myself a "deadline" so I am thinking I might could understand maybe just a little where you were coming from. Or maybe that's presumptuous of me to say, I don't really know. :-3

I agree that ending one's life affects more than just that individual. It doesn't even have to be a child or spouse or family member, it can affect the waitress in the restaurant one always went to or your neighbor even if you never exchanged more than a simple hello. And assuming one's a decent human, it might also be seen as robbing society of a good person and any good, positive, compassionate things that person may have done that would have benefitted others. While those things would be true of any suicide, I make exception for the person who is in unbearable chronic pain or is terminal. But that may be another topic.

Lulu, thank you very much. Without a doubt, losing my mom has been the most trying thing that's ever happened to me. I am an only child and am fortunate that I still have my Dad with me. :-4

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 8:00 am

Helefra, Zinky, Cheshire...I respect you for being so open about something so painful and private. I have been bipolar most of my life (I'm 40) and I know exactly what you mean, Zinky, about not wanting to kill yourself but just wanting to stop the pain of the moment. I know that pain too.

I know you all don't know me too well yet, but if anyone ever needs or wants someone to talk to about depression or wanting to end it all, please know I'm here and willing to listen. :-4

Red

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 8:01 am

Big group hug....:yh_hugs :yh_hugs

Squeeze..

cherandbuster · Post by **cherandbuster** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:12 am

Hfra, Zinkster, CSquared -- I am so touched that you chose to share such a personal thing with your friends in the Garden. I thinks it's wonderful that you worked hard to 'get to the other side'.

I have been on an antidepressant called Lexapro for four years now. Most people say to me, "Wow -- if you are on an antidepressant, then we're all in trouble!" But no one knows the feeling unless they've gone through it themselves. My identical twin has *never* had a problem with depression, which was yet *another* reason for me to feel bad about myself.

For me, when I would get down, I tended to isolate myself -- I just wanted to be left alone. Also, I would hold onto negative feelings for a long time -- I would feel such an intensity that I just *could not* let things go.

Since I've been on Lexapro, my reactions have evened out. I get over negative things much more quickly. If I have an argument with my husband, it's more important for me to have us *both* get to the same side. Winning is inconsequential to me.

I find it so interesting that most of us have had experiences with depression of some kind.

It can be a tough world out there - why not help yourself to feel better in it? :-6

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:28 am

cherandbuster wrote: Hfra, Zinkster, CSquared -- I am so touched that you chose to share such a personal thing with your friends in the Garden. I thinks it's wonderful that you worked hard to 'get to the other side'.

I have been on an antidepressant called Lexapro for four years now. Most people say to me, "Wow -- if you are on an antidepressant, then we're all in trouble!" But no one knows the feeling unless they've gone through it themselves. My identical twin has *never* had a problem with depression, which was yet *another* reason for me to feel bad about myself.

For me, when I would get down, I tended to isolate myself -- I just wanted to be left alone. Also, I would hold onto negative feelings for a long time -- I would feel such an intensity that I just *could not* let things go.

Since I've been on Lexapro, my reactions have evened out. I get over negative things much more quickly. If I have an argument with my husband, it's more important for me to have us *both* get to the same side. Winning is inconsequential to me.

I find it so interesting that most of us have had experiences with depression of some kind.

It can be a tough world out there - why not help yourself to feel better in it? :-6

Cher, I am currently using Lexapro as well. It's a very good new generation anti-depressant with few side effects. I'll be on it for life as long as it keeps working. I have been on some form of meds since I was 21 and everytime I tried to come off I went right back into a major depression. Now I look at it as being similar to someone with diabetes, would they try and stop taking insulin? I guess I just have some basic bio-chemical imbalance in my brain no matter how I got there, or even if I was born with it..

guppy · Post by **guppy** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:49 am

Cher and Zinky- seems i am in good company. i have been taking lexapro for five years now. i just wanted to say i have suffered from major depression at one time. so i can relate big time. i heard you are not supposed to take antidepressants forever. so i figure i will just take it till i die. It gives me the ability to hear people and not react to their stuff. i like that big time. i dont worry so much about the outcome of decisions i make for myself anymore. i feel calm and serene. liike you zinky, i probably needed to be on something since i was young. i just didn't realize it till i started on the lexapro. it gives me the ability to say what i think. :wah: And i can get appropriately mad. i like that too:-5 before lexapro:-1 , one day later:-6 .

guppy · Post by **guppy** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:55 am

Red Glitter, hamster, and everybody else on here who shared . thank you so much. It just goes to show that the best, smartest, kindest, people go down sometimes too. i am glad to hear good outcomes from everybody. Seems we are all smart enough to seek help and do something about it in a helpful way instead of destructive roads that any one of us could have taken. You all deserve a pat on the back and a big round of applause just for the way you dealt with it!!!!!! YYYYYYYYEEEEEAAAAA. clap, clap, clap, clap, clap. and a big ole group hug:yh_hugs :yh_hugs

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:56 am

from guppy:

i heard you are not supposed to take antidepressants forever. so i figure i will just take it till i die.

:wah: LOL, good one gup..me to.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 12:29 pm

guppy wrote: i hate to say this, but assisted suicide happens everyday in hospitals. when the patient is near the end of life process, what the heck do you think is happening when the md. slowly increases the amount of morphine being dripped into the patient? it slowly decreases the heart rate and rate of breathing untill death occurrs. In other words it speeds up what might take days, weeks, or even months to happen. i have seen patients literally fight the drug right untill the very end. There are nurses who absolutely refuse to participate in this. sorry, but it happens all the time.

I really worry about what happens if the nurse takes it one step further and reports the doctor for malpractice and incorrect treatment. There have been cases over here of doctors being struck off for trying to do their best for the patients.

I believe that the position should be put on a sound legal footing and set out my arguments some time ago :-

http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/showp ... ostcount=2

and

http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/showp ... ostcount=6

With regard to suicide itself, I think the reason that it is usually illegal, is to allow the authorities to take the patient into protective custody and, if necessary, get help for them without having to go through the process of sectioning them.

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:55 pm

I am quite surprised by some of the responses here - disgusted, even - at some

of the assumptions made. Having been through the mill myself, I have voted "no".

cherandbuster · Post by **cherandbuster** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:56 pm

Zinkster and Guppy -- I plan to be on it forever if need be. And Zinky, I look at it *exactly* the same way you do; if I had high blood pressure, I most certainly would take meds for it. Why is this any different?

I think it is a sign of strength to reach out for help, not a sign of weakness.

Why not try to be the very best you can be? :-6

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 2:00 pm

cherandbuster wrote: Why not try to be the very best you can be? :-6

Why not, indeed? That is - if you actually care.

guppy · Post by **guppy** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 2:09 pm

bill Sikes. would you mind going into more detail with your remarks. just excactly what part of this thread and to whom are you referring?

guppy · Post by **guppy** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 2:11 pm

helefra, i respect your decision to deal with depression in a way that works for you. thank you for respecting the others of us who have chosen a diff. route. to each his or her own, wouldn't you say.................................:-6

cherandbuster · Post by **cherandbuster** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 2:16 pm

guppy wrote: helefra, i respect your decision to deal with depression in a way that works for you. thank you for respecting the others of us who have chosen a diff. route. to each his or her own, wouldn't you say.................................:-6

Guppy

I like the way you look at things :-6

guppy · Post by **guppy** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 2:19 pm

Thank you Cherandbuster. i like the way you do to. i have enjoyed reading your posts on the garden. you are a very intelligent woman, caring woman. :-6

guppy · Post by **guppy** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 2:35 pm

helefra, my friend. we think alike. hope you have a wonderful day. :-6