Why Are You Here?

koan · Post by **koan** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 9:00 am

Since this question has been flying around a lot lately, I thought I'd start a new thread so we can all remember. Here's my story:

At the time when I joined...October 2004, I was off work because of lower back problems. A friend of mine suggested going to an internet forum. She said it had changed her life. I did a google search and found ForumGarden. Shortly after joining, I had a further back injury and was unable to get out of bed for about a month. Needless to say, I hooked my laptop up in my bedroom and made this my cyberhome. I recall being overwhelmed with the validation I received while writing here. People actually listened to each other.

At the beginning I came here as a social member. I spent a lot of time in General Chit Chat threads and ended up being a moderator in the Religion Forums. I took it very seriously and tried my best to be impartial, fair and encouraging. As the community grew and relationships developed, or fell apart, the Garden began to reflect more and more the real world in which people who don't like each other learned to get along or provided constant drama for the passive observers, people who got along helped each other through crisis and, for me, I found myself smack in the middle of arguments that I didn't need to be in. So I took a break.

When I stopped being a moderator, I was able to start speaking my mind without concern for PR. That is when I started writing mostly in the political forums. I chose to leave the social threads because of the conflicts and various misadventures of my past here. The social threads and game threads are a big part of other members' experiences and a source of much entertainment. They are a big part of a forum. That I don't frequent them anymore says nothing about their value. Having more projects in the works than I am likely to complete in my lifetime, my choice is merely a reflection of what conversations are useful to me in the work I am trying to accomplish.

Forums are addictive and, as far as they go, I am very happy that I have this forum to frequent. The large number of members and level of posting activity provides a lot of stimulation. That is why I am here.

Perhaps if we all think about it we will find reasons to all get along.

Peg · Post by **Peg** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 9:07 am

Why Are You Here?
I ask myself that more and more.

Marie5656 · Post by **Marie5656** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 9:10 am

Good thread. It will be interesting to remember why folks came here.

I had done a search for "support groups". Basically because of me being female, in that "certain" stage of my life. Coupled with the anxiety and stuff. Was just looking for some online support.

Anyway, FG came up. It was one of the first forums I peeked at, and decided to stay. It was not till a few weeks later when I was looking at the members list, that I realized that I had actually been here before...joined up with a different username, but never posted on that name.

But, don't worry, all, I won't sign in under that name to "spy". Would be hard to be discrete, though, as I used the name Marie in that name too.

I am really not sure why I did not come back that first time. I think it had to do with the "supporting member" thing...was cheap and did not want to pay, though I realize one does not have to be a supporting member.

Oh well. I do not mind it here at all. I like the controversy.

koan · Post by **koan** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 9:21 am

Marie5656 wrote: Good thread. It will be interesting to remember why folks came here.

I had done a search for "support groups". Basically because of me being female, in that "certain" stage of my life. Coupled with the anxiety and stuff. Was just looking for some online support.

Anyway, FG came up. It was one of the first forums I peeked at, and decided to stay. It was not till a few weeks later when I was looking at the members list, that I realized that I had actually been here before...joined up with a different username, but never posted on that name.

But, don't worry, all, I won't sign in under that name to "spy". Would be hard to be discrete, though, as I used the name Marie in that name too.

I am really not sure why I did not come back that first time. I think it had to do with the "supporting member" thing...was cheap and did not want to pay, though I realize one does not have to be a supporting member.

Oh well. I do not mind it here at all. I like the controversy.

that's the spirit! It is interesting to remember the details of how we got here and why we stayed.

koan · Post by **koan** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 9:45 am

tmbsgrl wrote: I think I was bored & lookin for something to do- I looked up forums and Fg popped up. I seached and lurked for a while and then I finally joined. It has been history ever since! lol

This place is addicting!

This having been my first forum, I recall how nervous I was when I first posted.

The only way to take a break is to stop all email notifications...if absolutely necessary.

chonsigirl · Post by **chonsigirl** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:01 am

I was looking for a gardening forum, and this came up on the google search.

It is a very nice place to be, with many lovely friends. There is always a variety of topics, and I tend to keep FG up when working on something else, so I can post every so often.

koan · Post by **koan** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:09 am

chonsigirl wrote: I was looking for a gardening forum, and this came up on the google search.

It is a very nice place to be, with many lovely friends. There is always a variety of topics, and I tend to keep FG up when working on something else, so I can post every so often.

I do that too. keep a tab open with FG while I'm working and recheck "today's posts" every so often. I use Firefox, hence the "tab"

koan · Post by **koan** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:14 am

Hamster wrote: It's all Betty's fault I am here-although I am loving it now!!!

She's got me hooked!! :wah:

No one can resist the Boop. Don't even try.

CheshireCat · Post by **CheshireCat** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:21 am

I came here to ask a specific question, and recieved an overwhelming response. You know, my question was a toughy and I was questioned about my sencerity. But I felt at home and well recieved. That problem has been resolved, thank goodness.

I was really nervous about posting after that. But I started slowly, and now you can't get me off of here!

I have made some friends here and I care about the peole that are here. I have made REAL connections here as well, some are outstanding, one is VERY dear to me. i'm sure that that wiil only continueto grow. I love it here and the contravercy bothers me, but will not keep me away, just away from those threads.

Lulu2 · Post by **Lulu2** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:23 am

I'm here because I enjoy friendly, respectful, light-hearted conversations and making friends from other countries.

Adam Zapple and I moderated/posted on another message board, and he recommended FG as a place I'd like. I lurked for awhile and, over a weekend when I was house-bound, I jumped right in. In a short while, I've made friends and feel at home among most everyone here. I love the international aspect and discovering how much alike we all are!

Message boards are an interesting phenomenon which take on the tone of the people who post there. I've seen boards which thrive on the insulting, disrespectful behavior of teens or teen-like people....and I've seen boards such as this one.

I've learned that you cannot take a happy, respectful board for granted, since there are others who will enjoy changing that board into something more to their liking. I've also learned that moderating a busy board is a HUGE responsiblity and can often make a person :-5 !

koan · Post by **koan** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:27 am

CheshireCat wrote: I came here to ask a specific question, and recieved an overwhelming response. You know, my question was a toughy and I was questioned about my sencerity. But I felt at home and well recieved. That problem has been resolved, thank goodness.

I was really nervous about posting after that. But I started slowly, and now you can't get me off of here!

I have made some friends here and I care about the peole that are here. I have made REAL connections here as well, some are outstanding, one is VERY dear to me. i'm sure that that wiil only continueto grow. I love it here and the contravercy bothers me, but will not keep me away, just away from those threads.

There's not much that can keep me away either, except work, even then it's hard since my work is mostly on my computer.

Post by **Betty Boop** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:40 am

Hamster wrote: It's all Betty's fault I am here-although I am loving it now!!!

She's got me hooked!! :wah:

And how did I arrive here??

I don't know how, I must have searched something along the lines of divorce or mental abuse, anyway i read a few threads and then jumped in with both feet and let go of all my feelings regarding returning to an abusive husband and having made the biggest mistake of my life. The support I recieved was overwhelming and reduced me to tears. I would spend the days whilst my husband was at work in here gaining strength from these people that didn't actually know me, I would have to cover all my tracks before he left work so he didn't come home and follow my tracks on the computer. I can remember being so scared and physically shaking with fear when he came in from work, I felt sure he would find out I'd been posting on a forum about him. I can remember the day I posted in here that I was leaving him, and explained that I wouldn't be online for some time as I walked away from my marital home with just the children and some clothes. The support I recieved here was fantastic and helped make me believe I could do it.

Maybe my bad marriage is one reason why I don't do conflict, I hate confrontation and will avoid it at all costs, maybe thats to my detriment, but I can assure you, no-one shits on me any more!

koan · Post by **koan** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:45 am

Betty, that is a great reminder of how forums can change our real lives.

Everyone who helped you when you needed them should pause and give themselves a pat on the back.

Post by **Betty Boop** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:48 am

koan wrote: Betty, that is a great reminder of how forums can change our real lives.

Everyone who helped you when you needed them should pause and give themselves a pat on the back.

That they should Koan, they all know who they are and sadly some have gone, but I'll never forget them. :-4

koan · Post by **koan** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:57 am

It's great to read about the great results too. Sometimes people go off after getting advice and we never know if it helped or not.

Post by **Betty Boop** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:58 am

Hamster wrote: Betty you are unrecognisable from that person you described...So much stronger..Maybe it has to do with the people here that have helped you?

All our lives are affected when you read a post offering support and help...It warms my heart :-4

My school friend would correct you there and say this is the real me, I've just returned to the person I was before I married him.

ForumGarden · Post by **ForumGarden** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:58 am

Nice thread Koan.

ForumGarden is a place to talk about "life." With that understanding, I'm growing weary of the personal barbs being thrown about by a small number of people on both sides of the campfire.

So, who would agree with me that ForumGarden should be about the issues, the content, and the topic at hand? This EXCLUDES personal differences and name-calling. Frankly, I feel that people shouldn't be here once they begin name-calling and sniping.

Why?

1. Because this is a public forum and personally I never want to see personal fights - it belongs either in private email or on another "flame" forum.

2. They never give it a rest.

3. Other people get dragged into it.

4. Technically, it is "off-topic" and does not add to the thread at hand.

So some questions for all of you:

1. Should ForumGarden be an "invite" only forum?

2. Should we institute a warning system that objectively kicks you off the forums after a certain amount of off-topic remarks?

3. Should we allow personal fights on the public forums?

4. Should we show a "no-tolerance" stand on personal attacks?

Thoughts?

Post by **Betty Boop** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:10 am

Hamster wrote: I think no personal attacks at all are ever justified on a forum....No tolerance works for me...

Ditto for me too!

Lulu2 · Post by **Lulu2** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:12 am

Numbers 2, 3 and 4, please!

This would increase the "load" on administration and it would keep that "notification" button warm....but once people saw it was serious, we wouldn't get as many TERRORIST attacks.

Post by **Betty Boop** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:13 am

koan wrote: It's great to read about the great results too. Sometimes people go off after getting advice and we never know if it helped or not.

Yes thats good too, so many people disapear off into the sunset and we're left wondering how they fared.

koan · Post by **koan** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:14 am

The Why comments:

1. Because this is a public forum and personally I never want to see personal fights - it belongs either in private email or on another "flame" forum. I agree with spot that attacking via PMs and private email is a problem. Mostly because the attacker then goes to the public boards with rose perfume and acts completely different and it is impossible to prove what it going on because of the rules. The PM privacy rules allow protection of vicious behaviour.

2. They never give it a rest. I loved your compost rule about confining to the pile as punishment. Unfortunately that means you have to adopt eagle eyes or a tattle telling system develops

The questions:

1. Should ForumGarden be an "invite" only forum? No. That makes it an "in" club and prevents the membership from growing as large. We find wonderful new members that find ForumGarden all on their own. And often in need of support etc.

2. Should we institute a warning system that objectively kicks you off the forums after a certain amount of off-topic remarks? A number of other forums have this feature. I think it's a good idea. Then people can be very aware of whether or not they are crossing lines and a fair warning of their status. It would be even better if the "point system" can be restored for good behaviour and if the warning system notifies the member of why they lost points. (ie- which post got the warning)

3. Should we allow personal fights on the public forums? You have the compost set up. If someone wants to ask why a member is picking on them or try to end a feud I think they should be able to call the other member out off the main boards. If it turned into a constant and continued to bleed out into the main forums than scrap it and take another path. I think confronting differences can end with good results sometimes.

4. Should we show a "no-tolerance" stand on personal attacks? Personal attacks are a logical fallacy in debate. They can happen without complete malicious intent. It is the ganging up against a member that is the biggest problem, imo. If personal attacks can be addressed in the compost then they might resolve themselves.

Thank you for asking opinions about this. I hadn't expected the opportunity and they are good questions.

Lulu2 · Post by **Lulu2** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:15 am

I disagree heartily with your stance on number 4, Koan. One can disagree without mudslinging. And a "warning" system should be enough to inform someone that personal attacks are not accepted here. Allowing someone to return after they've ignored a warning/banning shouldn't be an option.

Adam Zapple · Post by **Adam Zapple** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:27 am

1. No.

2, 3, & 4 - how do you do this objectively? Sounds rather subjective and punitive to me. I don't like flamewars either but no tolerance policies can sometimes swallow up otherwise peaceful contributors who may have erred with bad wording or possibly may be taken out of context. I say we let this blow over and remain as is. The problem isn't FG or how it is run so if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:38 am

Forumgarden wrote:

1. Should ForumGarden be an "invite" only forum?

no. that tends to cause inbreeding, so to speak. birds of a feather flock together naturally, so people of like minds will enjoy inviting their like-minded friends. eventually, you have a sky dark with blackbirds, with nowhere for them to light. disease runs rampant in uniform populations.

2. Should we institute a warning system that objectively kicks you off the forums after a certain amount of off-topic remarks?

i'm guessing that would be like a 'rep' system, where people can 'thumbs up' or 'thumbs down' any given post, and if a particular post or poster accumulates too many, they get put in the stockade. the problem there is that any system like that can be 'gamed'. someone with a wide net and a grudge can easily get someone banned with little objective reason behind it.

3. Should we allow personal fights on the public forums?
"allow" in the sense that the occasional personal fight is not just inevitable, but part and parcel of *all* discussion, both in the corporeal world and here in the virtual world. they should be discouraged, certainly. but an absolute ban on personal fights in the public forums will turn this into

"hi"

"hi there"

"hi everybody!"

"hi what's new!"

"hi i'm new hi!"

"hi there new what's new!"

"hi and welcome!"

"okay, bye everyone!"

"bye! see you later!"

and that's about it. too much nicey nice is just as bad as too much spewing vitriol. i have no more desire to be ripped a new one than i have to be drowned in syrup.

4. Should we show a "no-tolerance" stand on personal attacks?

as above.

Screamer · Post by **Screamer** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:39 am

Adam Zapple wrote: I say we let this blow over and remain as is. The problem isn't FG or how it is run so if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
First of all . . . (rhetorical question here) let what blow over?!?

I am a new member and I came in here because one of FG's members was posting on my home forum. I don't see ANY problems (and I am not trying to, perhaps that's why I don't).

If it aint broke, don't fix it!

chonsigirl · Post by **chonsigirl** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:43 am

I'm putting this on both threads, thank you for your indulgence, koan.

1. Should ForumGarden be an "invite" only forum?

I think it should be open, and not limited to invite only.

2. Should we institute a warning system that objectively kicks you off the forums after a certain amount of off-topic remarks?

Some threads lend themselves to go off-topic, when people are making jokes. (like the butter thread) Maybe there could be the little faces added on the index for threads such as these, a smiley face or something.

Serious threads should be allowed to remain serious and on-topic. A warning system of some type might be nice to have, for those who want to continue their serious topic and warn off potential silliness or fighting off topic.

3. Should we allow personal fights on the public forums?

No, personal fights should not be in public view. I know we have the Compost Heap, and such threads go that way. Personal fights should remain on PM or via e-mail or other forms of communication, not for public viewing.

4. Should we show a "no-tolerance" stand on personal attacks?

Tough love is hard, but I would suggest whatever series of warning(s) be given out, then "no-tolerance" should take place at admin's discretion.

woppy71 · Post by **woppy71** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:44 am

Well, I had just spent a number of years doing the rounds on the IRC networks, some of the time as an IRCop. Ended up spending most of my time resolving conflicts, maintaining servers etc, which made me lose track of the reason why I went online to chat in the first place!

I just decided one day that I had enough and decided I wanted to rediscover the slower pace of online forums. So of I tootled to google, and up popped the forum garden. I took a look round, and something clicked. So much so that i think that I paid my membership within the first 20 posts or so.

Then, for work / time reasons, I left off for a few months, then just came back full force. I've made some friends here, which even after a short space of time, I know I will be intouch with for years to come:-4

Post by **spot** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:53 am

Because this is a public forum and personally I never want to see personal fights - it belongs either in private email or on another "flame" forum.

Iâ€™m strongly of the opinion that it has no place in PMs either. Weâ€™ve seen that an entirely different demeanor can be maintained between a public persona and the underlying nastiness that PMs can carry if allowed. Either you need to ban on the basis of complaints (which hasnâ€™t happened in the past despite outrageously horrible content), treating nasty PMs as more (rather then less) offensive than nasty posts, or you need to encourage PMs to be quoted in public without any subsequent criticism of the quoting from the admin team. Either provides protection. Some form of protection is essential. Most PMs, of course, would remain private. The option to post them would stop the abuse thatâ€™s happened on ForumGarden in the past.

1. Should ForumGarden be an "invite" only forum?

Iâ€™m sure that would harm the place terribly. I canâ€™t imagine anyone would want to go down that route. Youâ€™d allow reading by visitors but no way of signing on to reply? Thatâ€™s not going to allow growth at all.

2. Should we institute a warning system that objectively kicks you off the forums after a certain amount of off-topic remarks?

If you put an off-topic hyperlink next to the report-a-post hyperlink then it could be automated. I canâ€™t see the need. Itâ€™s up to the posters to comment in-thread if they find the content drifting. Every time Iâ€™ve tried saying that anywhere Iâ€™ve upset people, so I donâ€™t do it any more. I expect thread drift carries as much benefit as it does frustration.

3. Should we allow personal fights on the public forums?

No, letâ€™s stop this for once and for all. It gets in the way of what we enjoy and Iâ€™m sure itâ€™s resulted in people leaving who would have happily stayed in the absence of the ill-feeling.

4. Should we show a "no-tolerance" stand on personal attacks?

In terms of isolating people to posting within the heap and nowhere else, thatâ€™s a perfect solution. Banning is pointless, everyone comes back if they feel inclined and the remaining posters allow it. Isolation is ignominious. The heap has parallels with sin-bins in professional sport, we can all relate to it.

ARgi · Post by **ARgi** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:55 am

anastrophe wrote: no. that tends to cause inbreeding, so to speak. birds of a feather flock together naturally, so people of like minds will enjoy inviting their like-minded friends. eventually, you have a sky dark with blackbirds, with nowhere for them to light. disease runs rampant in uniform populations.

i'm guessing that would be like a 'rep' system, where people can 'thumbs up' or 'thumbs down' any given post, and if a particular post or poster accumulates too many, they get put in the stockade. the problem there is that any system like that can be 'gamed'. someone with a wide net and a grudge can easily get someone banned with little objective reason behind it.

"allow" in the sense that the occasional personal fight is not just inevitable, but part and parcel of *all* discussion, both in the corporeal world and here in the virtual world. they should be discouraged, certainly. but an absolute ban on personal fights in the public forums will turn this into

"hi"

"hi there"

"hi everybody!"

"hi what's new!"

"hi i'm new hi!"

"hi there new what's new!"

"hi and welcome!"

"okay, bye everyone!"

"bye! see you later!"

and that's about it. too much nicey nice is just as bad as too much spewing vitriol. i have no more desire to be ripped a new one than i have to be drowned in syrup.

as above.

i will have to agree with your points. it just isn't possible to keep all fights from erupting in public. there is such a thing as clearing the air ... but everyone hates to see two people go at it and they will probably not care who's right or wrong anyway unless they know the people involved ... pm's, yes! lol. the moderator should know if there is a threat big enough that a fight in broad daylight is eminent. it can be squelched pretty quickly that way.

Lulu2 · Post by **Lulu2** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:01 pm

What Chonsi said...

And I don't agree that personal, nasty attacks are inevetible. You can say something without being obscene or insulting.

Post by **spot** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:22 pm

A private message has the inherent capacity to remain private, but that should be a consensual matter and not one of compulsion. Here's a proposal with regard to the question of confidentiality on receiving a PM.

I intend to put a permanent comment on my profile, warning: "I don't solicit PMs and reserve the right to publish all content".

If anyone in future finds they're receiving abusive text in PM then they can copy my statement to their own profile and subsequently act on the warning if they get any further harrassment. I think it would stop the abuse.

Would admin find this approach to the confidentiality issue acceptable?

ARgi · Post by **ARgi** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:26 pm

Lulu2 wrote: What Chonsi said...

And I don't agree that personal, nasty attacks are inevetible. You can say something without being obscene or insulting.

i said fighting...not personal attacks. or was that someone else?

ARgi · Post by **ARgi** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:26 pm

spot wrote: A private message has the inherent capacity to remain private, but that should be a consensual matter and not one of compulsion. Here's a proposal with regard to the question of confidentiality on receiving a PM.

I intend to put a permanent comment on my profile, warning: "I don't solicit PMs and reserve the right to publish all content".

If anyone in future finds they're receiving abusive text in PM then they can copy my statement to their own profile and subsequently act on the warning if they get any further harrassment. I think it would stop the abuse.

Would admin find this approach to the confidentiality issue acceptable?

good idea ... but it won't put many at ease to send messages to you.

koan · Post by **koan** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:30 pm

spot wrote: A private message has the inherent capacity to remain private, but that should be a consensual matter and not one of compulsion. Here's a proposal with regard to the question of confidentiality on receiving a PM.

I intend to put a permanent comment on my profile, warning: "I don't solicit PMs and reserve the right to publish all content".

If anyone in future finds they're receiving abusive text in PM then they can copy my statement to their own profile and subsequently act on the warning if they get any further harrassment. I think it would stop the abuse.

Would admin find this approach to the confidentiality issue acceptable?

You have mentioned this before and I completely agree with you. The PM system is nice as a means to send quick thank you messages or ask how someone is doing but has been the source of a lot of devious plotting in the past. If you warn people that you don't consider the messages private then it is fair notification, imo. The notice should also implicitly include that you don't consider your own messages to be private property in return (which I believe is your position as well). I agree that most messages would not end up being posted and, if personal details are revealed then it is covered by other terms of service to protect identities.

Post by **spot** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:31 pm

ARgi wrote: good idea ... but it won't put many at ease to send messages to you.Would it not? Mostly I chat on msn as a back-channel, or take real emails, the PM system's more for first contact and feeling each other out a bit. The problem I'm addressing has been very nasty and the current convention has protected it for far too long.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:35 pm

Lulu2 wrote: What Chonsi said...

And I don't agree that personal, nasty attacks are inevetible. You can say something without being obscene or insulting.

certainly - but that's not specifically what was referred to. only "personal fights" was referred to. that covers a wide spectrum of intercourse.

ARgi · Post by **ARgi** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:36 pm

spot wrote: Would it not? Mostly I chat on msn as a back-channel, or take real emails, the PM system's more for first contact and feeling each other out a bit. The problem I'm addressing has been very nasty and the current convention has protected it for far too long.

that's the only problem with keeping things to pm's. it makes it all to easy to spread misinformation. i've had messages forwarded to me of personal attacks on me that were sent out to others... and i really expect if i tell untowards things to someone whose friend i'm talking about that they will forward those things to their friend.

it would be nice to have a warning

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:41 pm

spot wrote: Would it not? Mostly I chat on msn as a back-channel, or take real emails, the PM system's more for first contact and feeling each other out a bit. The problem I'm addressing has been very nasty and the current convention has protected it for far too long.

while i'm not reading it this second, i'm pretty sure the TOS forbids obscene, abusive, harrassing, PM's.

PM stands for private message. what happens when someone has in the past shared confidences with someone they were friendly with in PM, then later there's a falling out, and the person who received those confidences decides to post them for all to see, to shame and embarrass the other person? that'd be acceptable under your proposal. and no good would come of it.