But, how do I decide?
For a 12 to 18 years period from the age of 6 to our mid twenties we have lived constantly in an educational system wherein we seldom if ever learned to function intellectually independent of outside direction. We have never learned how to learn!
How is it possible for such an individual to develop the internal processes (bootstrap) that allow him or her to become an independent critically self-conscious thinker? Bootstrap is defined as: designed to function independently of outside direction—capable of using one internal function or process to control another.
Like the PC setting in front of us we seem to have an automatic default position. Our default position is ‘reject’ when encountering any idea that does not fit in our already learned patterns and algorithms.
Somehow the individual must find a way to change that default position from ‘reject’ to ‘examine critically’. Of course—how do we every not reject this message?
These following definitions come from: http://www.criticalthinking.org/resourc ... sary.shtml
critical listening: A mode of monitoring how we are listening so as to maximize our accurate understanding of what another person is saying. By understanding the logic of human communication-that everything spoken expresses point of view, uses some ideas and not others, has implications, etc.-critical thinkers can listen so as to enter sympathetically and analytically into the perspective of others. See critical speaking, critical reading, critical writing, elements of thought, intellectual empathy.
critical person: One who has mastered a range of intellectual skills and abilities. If that person generally uses those skills to advance his or her own selfish interests, that person is a critical thinker only in a weak or qualified sense. If that person generally uses those skills fairmindedly, entering empathically into the points of view of others, he or she is a critical thinker in the strong or fullest sense. See critical thinking.
critical reading: Critical reading is an active, intellectually engaged process in which the reader participates in an inner dialogue with the writer. Most people read uncritically and so miss some part of what is expressed while distorting other parts. A critical reader realizes the way in which reading, by its very nature, means entering into a point of view other than our own, the point of view of the writer. A critical reader actively looks for assumptions, key concepts and ideas, reasons and justifications, supporting examples, parallel experiences, implications and consequences, and any other structural features of the written text, to interpret and assess it accurately and fairly. See elements of thought.
critical society: A society which rewards adherence to the values of critical thinking and hence does not use indoctrination and inculcation as basic modes of learning (rewards reflective questioning, intellectual independence, and reasoned dissent). Socrates is not the only thinker to imagine a society in which independent critical thought became embodied in the concrete day-to-day lives of individuals; William Graham Sumner, North America's distinguished anthropologist, explicitly formulated the ideal:
The critical habit of thought, if usual in a society, will pervade all its mores, because it is a way of taking up the problems of life. Men educated in it cannot be stampeded by stump orators and are never deceived by dithyrambic oratory. They are slow to believe. They can hold things as possible or probable in all degrees, without certainty and without pain. They can wait for evidence and weigh evidence, uninfluenced by the emphasis or confidence with which assertions are made on one side or the other. They can resist appeals to their dearest prejudices and all kinds of cajolery. Education in the critical faculty is the only education of which it can be truly said that it makes good citizens. (Folkways, 1906)
Until critical habits of thought pervade our society, however, there will be a tendency for schools as social institutions to transmit the prevailing world view more or less uncritically, to transmit it as reality, not as a picture of reality. Education for critical thinking, then, requires that the school or classroom become a microcosm of a critical society. See didactic instruction, dialogical instruction, intellectual virtues, knowledge.
critical thinking:
1) Disciplined, self-directed thinking which exemplifies the perfections of thinking appropriate to a particular mode or domain of thinking.
2) Thinking that displays mastery of intellectual skills and abilities.
3) The art of thinking about your thinking while you are thinking in order to make your thinking better: more clear, more accurate, or more defensible. Critical thinking can be distinguished into two forms: "selfish" or "sophistic", on the one hand, and "fairminded", on the other. In thinking critically we use our command of the elements of thinking to adjust our thinking successfully to the logical demands of a type or mode of thinking. See critical person, critical society, critical reading, critical listening, critical writing, perfections of thought, elements of thought, domains of thought, intellectual virtues.
critical writing: To express ourselves in language requires that we arrange our ideas in some relationships to each other. When accuracy and truth are at issue, then we must understand what our thesis is, how we can support it, how we can elaborate it to make it intelligible to others, what objections can be raised to it from other points of view, what the limitations are to our point of view, and so forth. Disciplined writing requires disciplined thinking; disciplined thinking is achieved through disciplined writing. See critical listening, critical reading, logic of language.
But, how do I decide?
But, how do I decide?
coberst wrote:
For a 12 to 18 years period from the age of 6 to our mid twenties we have lived constantly in an educational system wherein we seldom if ever learned to function intellectually independent of outside direction. We have never learned how to learn!
How is it possible for such an individual to develop the internal processes (bootstrap) that allow him or her to become an independent critically self-conscious thinker? Bootstrap is defined as: designed to function independently of outside direction—capable of using one internal function or process to control another.
We are constantly learning!
From the moment we are born we are exploring the world around us!
As babies we learn by sticking our fingers in things or putting them in our mouths.
As children we learn by copying from parents, peers, friends and family.
From 4 to 16 we are in school, an educational environment, and constantly learning and processing information and raising our own awareness of the world around us.
Of course people are taught to "function intellectually independent of outside direction", that is the whole point of homework, essays, reports and independent research projects!
And those lucky enough to go to University are taught to think critically and outside the box! We are always being taught to explore new ideas, new theories and we are explorative enough to want to learn!
"Our default position is ‘reject’ when encountering any idea that does not fit in our already learned patterns and algorithms" - this would surely only apply to a very small-minded, close-minded and heavily blinkered person! Most people listen to new ideas or alternatives and weigh up all the options! If they didn't we'd surely still be living in the dark ages and without fire! We eat pan-fried steak au poivre now, not uncooked diplodocus meat, in case you havent realised!
For a 12 to 18 years period from the age of 6 to our mid twenties we have lived constantly in an educational system wherein we seldom if ever learned to function intellectually independent of outside direction. We have never learned how to learn!
How is it possible for such an individual to develop the internal processes (bootstrap) that allow him or her to become an independent critically self-conscious thinker? Bootstrap is defined as: designed to function independently of outside direction—capable of using one internal function or process to control another.
We are constantly learning!
From the moment we are born we are exploring the world around us!
As babies we learn by sticking our fingers in things or putting them in our mouths.
As children we learn by copying from parents, peers, friends and family.
From 4 to 16 we are in school, an educational environment, and constantly learning and processing information and raising our own awareness of the world around us.
Of course people are taught to "function intellectually independent of outside direction", that is the whole point of homework, essays, reports and independent research projects!
And those lucky enough to go to University are taught to think critically and outside the box! We are always being taught to explore new ideas, new theories and we are explorative enough to want to learn!
"Our default position is ‘reject’ when encountering any idea that does not fit in our already learned patterns and algorithms" - this would surely only apply to a very small-minded, close-minded and heavily blinkered person! Most people listen to new ideas or alternatives and weigh up all the options! If they didn't we'd surely still be living in the dark ages and without fire! We eat pan-fried steak au poivre now, not uncooked diplodocus meat, in case you havent realised!
But, how do I decide?
Rapunzel:-6
Very well put.
I would add that if one ever encounters a person who claims to have and handle on it all, that is know everything about a topice, they are living in a delusion. The more we learn the more we realize how little we really know.
I would like to add that learning is a life long endeavour. It does not end on the last day of school. One can either move forward informally on their own by reading books related to their interest or taking formal courses on subjects of interest including logical reasoning. Though even "logic" is a human invention and should never be made into a god.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Very well put.
I would add that if one ever encounters a person who claims to have and handle on it all, that is know everything about a topice, they are living in a delusion. The more we learn the more we realize how little we really know.
I would like to add that learning is a life long endeavour. It does not end on the last day of school. One can either move forward informally on their own by reading books related to their interest or taking formal courses on subjects of interest including logical reasoning. Though even "logic" is a human invention and should never be made into a god.
Shalom
Ted:-6
But, how do I decide?
I had once concluded it to be natural that when confronted by a new idea humans tended to do a turtle; withdraw into their shell until the coast was clear.
After some time posting in cyberspace I have modified my view somewhat. I think that we tend to display two types of turtle responses to our encounter with new ideas.
The terrapin withdraws quickly into its shell and the snapping turtle hisses, spits, and snaps when such an encounter happens. I suspect that cyberspace has allowed many people to display a more vulgar attitude than they would in face-to-face encounters.
Instead of graduates eager to learn and to earn we have constructed an educational system that qualifies citizens for a life of mindless production and consumption. Instead of turtles we need cats as a model for schooling.
A cat travels through the forest alert and curious to all that is in her range of perception. Instead of withdrawing into a shell the cat stealthily examines everything in its path. After a quick examination the cat very well may dart away for cover. The cat is, I think, more likely to survive in a dynamic and dangerous world than is the turtle.
After some time posting in cyberspace I have modified my view somewhat. I think that we tend to display two types of turtle responses to our encounter with new ideas.
The terrapin withdraws quickly into its shell and the snapping turtle hisses, spits, and snaps when such an encounter happens. I suspect that cyberspace has allowed many people to display a more vulgar attitude than they would in face-to-face encounters.
Instead of graduates eager to learn and to earn we have constructed an educational system that qualifies citizens for a life of mindless production and consumption. Instead of turtles we need cats as a model for schooling.
A cat travels through the forest alert and curious to all that is in her range of perception. Instead of withdrawing into a shell the cat stealthily examines everything in its path. After a quick examination the cat very well may dart away for cover. The cat is, I think, more likely to survive in a dynamic and dangerous world than is the turtle.
But, how do I decide?
coberst:-6
You are certainly entitled to your opinion on education.
One really should begin with what one believes abou the person followed somewhere by a discussion on the purpose of education. Making blanket statements about most things does in fact show an inability or refusal to think critically.
Shalom
Ted
You are certainly entitled to your opinion on education.
One really should begin with what one believes abou the person followed somewhere by a discussion on the purpose of education. Making blanket statements about most things does in fact show an inability or refusal to think critically.
Shalom
Ted
-
chonsigirl
- Posts: 33633
- Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 8:28 am
But, how do I decide?
Instead of graduates eager to learn and to earn we have constructed an educational system that qualifies citizens for a life of mindless production and consumption. Instead of turtles we need cats as a model for schooling.
Critical Analysis
I do not agree at all. Our educational system does not brainwash them for mindless work and consumption. It teaches them to use higher level thinking skills. Every new idea, event, thought that occurs to a person is an opportunity to continue expanding on this. The majority of people do this.
Instead of constantly critizing our educational system, if you see some needed reforms, what are you doing to initiate them, coberst? Posting on the net may be one avenue, but it reaches a minority of the population. What other forms of change have you attempted? Do you work with a school population right now-as a volunteer if you are retired? Why or why not?
Actions speak louder then words at times, coberst.
Critical Analysis
I do not agree at all. Our educational system does not brainwash them for mindless work and consumption. It teaches them to use higher level thinking skills. Every new idea, event, thought that occurs to a person is an opportunity to continue expanding on this. The majority of people do this.
Instead of constantly critizing our educational system, if you see some needed reforms, what are you doing to initiate them, coberst? Posting on the net may be one avenue, but it reaches a minority of the population. What other forms of change have you attempted? Do you work with a school population right now-as a volunteer if you are retired? Why or why not?
Actions speak louder then words at times, coberst.
But, how do I decide?
Chonsigirl:-6
Well put.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Well put.
Shalom
Ted:-6
But, how do I decide?
Chonsi
Preparing a young person to get a job and make a living is no small task and is obviously an important task. However, if we adults do not comprehend what our system has and has not done then we are unable to take onto our own shoulders the responsibility to fill in the missing components.
There are millions of people giving serious consideration to the education of children but only a few who are concerned about the self-actualizing self-learning potential of our adult population. If adults fail to recognize that they too can be learners then we lose a great potential for becoming a more sophisticated population.
I suspect that most individuals connected with educating children recognize that many of the problems with children learning rests in the inadequacy of their parents. It is those parents that I wish to focus on.
Preparing a young person to get a job and make a living is no small task and is obviously an important task. However, if we adults do not comprehend what our system has and has not done then we are unable to take onto our own shoulders the responsibility to fill in the missing components.
There are millions of people giving serious consideration to the education of children but only a few who are concerned about the self-actualizing self-learning potential of our adult population. If adults fail to recognize that they too can be learners then we lose a great potential for becoming a more sophisticated population.
I suspect that most individuals connected with educating children recognize that many of the problems with children learning rests in the inadequacy of their parents. It is those parents that I wish to focus on.
But, how do I decide?
Pinky
You express very well what my goals are when I post something about an idea. I post in the hopes that it will triger the curiosity of the reader and thus cause that reader to go to the library or Google and reaserch the matter and thus become knowledagble as an independent thinker to make up their own minds.
You express very well what my goals are when I post something about an idea. I post in the hopes that it will triger the curiosity of the reader and thus cause that reader to go to the library or Google and reaserch the matter and thus become knowledagble as an independent thinker to make up their own minds.
But, how do I decide?
coberst:-6
I have a few questions for you. I will ask one at a time.
What, exactly is it that you believe about the individual child? Who is s/he? What is s/he? What is s/he born with? Without? In short, what is your philosophy of the child?
Shalom
Ted:-6
I have a few questions for you. I will ask one at a time.
What, exactly is it that you believe about the individual child? Who is s/he? What is s/he? What is s/he born with? Without? In short, what is your philosophy of the child?
Shalom
Ted:-6
But, how do I decide?
Ted wrote: coberst:-6
I have a few questions for you. I will ask one at a time.
What, exactly is it that you believe about the individual child? Who is s/he? What is s/he? What is s/he born with? Without? In short, what is your philosophy of the child?
Shalom
Ted:-6
I have five children and seven grandchildren but no philosophy of the child.
I have a few questions for you. I will ask one at a time.
What, exactly is it that you believe about the individual child? Who is s/he? What is s/he? What is s/he born with? Without? In short, what is your philosophy of the child?
Shalom
Ted:-6
I have five children and seven grandchildren but no philosophy of the child.
But, how do I decide?
coberst:-6
Educators know that without a philosophy of the child one cannot design and effective education. It is that very philosophy on which all education is founded.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Educators know that without a philosophy of the child one cannot design and effective education. It is that very philosophy on which all education is founded.
Shalom
Ted:-6
But, how do I decide?
Ted wrote: coberst:-6
Educators know that without a philosophy of the child one cannot design and effective education. It is that very philosophy on which all education is founded.
Shalom
Ted:-6
There are millions of people working on educating children, I am focusing my attention on convincing adults that they should become self-actualizing self-learners. It appears to me that most adults pack their intellects in a trunk in the attic with their yearbook never to use that intellect again except for on-the-job or family emergencies. I do not think our nation or any nation can any longer afford the luxury of ignoring such a large amount of intellectual power.
Chuck
Educators know that without a philosophy of the child one cannot design and effective education. It is that very philosophy on which all education is founded.
Shalom
Ted:-6
There are millions of people working on educating children, I am focusing my attention on convincing adults that they should become self-actualizing self-learners. It appears to me that most adults pack their intellects in a trunk in the attic with their yearbook never to use that intellect again except for on-the-job or family emergencies. I do not think our nation or any nation can any longer afford the luxury of ignoring such a large amount of intellectual power.
Chuck
But, how do I decide?
coberst:-6
I have no problem with that comment. But it does raise questions such as why is this so? Why do parents or adults seem for the most part to ignore their education? I think there are reasons for that.
I can also agree that in many cases the parents are a hinderance to a good education. They don't mean to be but they are. I think there are reasons for that as well.
Understanding these problems is one of the reasons we must develop a philosophy of the child or, if you will, individual people. It seems to me it is only once we have developed such a philosophy that we can begin to understand the individual. Once we understand that aspect then we can begin to discuss the aims and purposes of a general education.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I have no problem with that comment. But it does raise questions such as why is this so? Why do parents or adults seem for the most part to ignore their education? I think there are reasons for that.
I can also agree that in many cases the parents are a hinderance to a good education. They don't mean to be but they are. I think there are reasons for that as well.
Understanding these problems is one of the reasons we must develop a philosophy of the child or, if you will, individual people. It seems to me it is only once we have developed such a philosophy that we can begin to understand the individual. Once we understand that aspect then we can begin to discuss the aims and purposes of a general education.
Shalom
Ted:-6
But, how do I decide?
Thank goodness some folks have arrived back for wherever. I was beginning to think I was here alone. I began to wonder if the rapture had occurred and I was "Left Behind". LOL
Shalom
Ted:-6
Shalom
Ted:-6
But, how do I decide?
Ted wrote: coberst:-6
I have no problem with that comment. But it does raise questions such as why is this so? Why do parents or adults seem for the most part to ignore their education? I think there are reasons for that.
I can also agree that in many cases the parents are a hinderance to a good education. They don't mean to be but they are. I think there are reasons for that as well.
Understanding these problems is one of the reasons we must develop a philosophy of the child or, if you will, individual people. It seems to me it is only once we have developed such a philosophy that we can begin to understand the individual. Once we understand that aspect then we can begin to discuss the aims and purposes of a general education.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I think that our educational system is designed to prepare us to become hard workers and strong consumers. In doing this all interest in gradutes with imagination and curiosity intact were considered to be superfulious.
Adults finish their schooling with the idea that learning is over and production and consumption begins. Our adults know little or nothing about how to learn as independent thinkers and have little interest in thinking about such things. I hope that the introduction of CT (Critical Thinking) in our schools might begin to change that.
I have no problem with that comment. But it does raise questions such as why is this so? Why do parents or adults seem for the most part to ignore their education? I think there are reasons for that.
I can also agree that in many cases the parents are a hinderance to a good education. They don't mean to be but they are. I think there are reasons for that as well.
Understanding these problems is one of the reasons we must develop a philosophy of the child or, if you will, individual people. It seems to me it is only once we have developed such a philosophy that we can begin to understand the individual. Once we understand that aspect then we can begin to discuss the aims and purposes of a general education.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I think that our educational system is designed to prepare us to become hard workers and strong consumers. In doing this all interest in gradutes with imagination and curiosity intact were considered to be superfulious.
Adults finish their schooling with the idea that learning is over and production and consumption begins. Our adults know little or nothing about how to learn as independent thinkers and have little interest in thinking about such things. I hope that the introduction of CT (Critical Thinking) in our schools might begin to change that.
But, how do I decide?
coberst:-6
You've been away from school far too long. Many years ago I might have agreed with you but such is not the case now. However, you wouldn't believe the whining about getting back to basics; the three R's. That would indeed be a mistake and a cave in to ignorance.
I do think, however, that we need to discuss the purposes of education. There are many views of this in the world and many of then I cannot agree with. Many of them would be disasterous.
In Ontario when Mike Harris took over as premier he changed education. The results of his changes are now coming in and his programme has failed miserably. He put education back some 40+ years.
Here in BC we had a minister of education who was going to produce better education for less money. I often wondered what planet she came from, because it sure was not planet earth.
Shalom
Ted:-6
You've been away from school far too long. Many years ago I might have agreed with you but such is not the case now. However, you wouldn't believe the whining about getting back to basics; the three R's. That would indeed be a mistake and a cave in to ignorance.
I do think, however, that we need to discuss the purposes of education. There are many views of this in the world and many of then I cannot agree with. Many of them would be disasterous.
In Ontario when Mike Harris took over as premier he changed education. The results of his changes are now coming in and his programme has failed miserably. He put education back some 40+ years.
Here in BC we had a minister of education who was going to produce better education for less money. I often wondered what planet she came from, because it sure was not planet earth.
Shalom
Ted:-6
But, how do I decide?
Ted
My interst is in adult self-actualizing self-learning to cover for the inadequacies of the education of children. What do you think about trying to utilize the brainpower that is rotting away in the skulls of our adults?
My interst is in adult self-actualizing self-learning to cover for the inadequacies of the education of children. What do you think about trying to utilize the brainpower that is rotting away in the skulls of our adults?
But, how do I decide?
coberst:-6
First of all I cannot agree that the children are receiving an inadequate education. Generally today they are receiving a fairly good education. Is it perfect? No. Could it be better? Yes. But unfortunately teachers cannot do it alone. They need much more than they have.
As for the adult brainpower,the old phrase "You can take a horse to the trough but you can't make him drink" holds true. The educational systems in North America not only stress life long learning but provide the facilities for it. You can't make people put forth an effort if they don't want to.
Shalom
Ted:-6
First of all I cannot agree that the children are receiving an inadequate education. Generally today they are receiving a fairly good education. Is it perfect? No. Could it be better? Yes. But unfortunately teachers cannot do it alone. They need much more than they have.
As for the adult brainpower,the old phrase "You can take a horse to the trough but you can't make him drink" holds true. The educational systems in North America not only stress life long learning but provide the facilities for it. You can't make people put forth an effort if they don't want to.
Shalom
Ted:-6
But, how do I decide?
Ted wrote: coberst:-6
First of all I cannot agree that the children are receiving an inadequate education. Generally today they are receiving a fairly good education. Is it perfect? No. Could it be better? Yes. But unfortunately teachers cannot do it alone. They need much more than they have.
As for the adult brainpower,the old phrase "You can take a horse to the trough but you can't make him drink" holds true. The educational systems in North America not only stress life long learning but provide the facilities for it. You can't make people put forth an effort if they don't want to.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Yes, you cannot make people put forth the effort to learn if you cannot penetrate their barriers, which are curiosity and caring. Our schools prepare us for a job but in the process they strangle our curiosity and lead us into passive apathy because we care for nothing beyond our personal world.
Only when all of us begin to comprehend that we are what we allow to be. The enemy is us, all of us. Our schools are not an accident they are designed to be as they are because those who run America wish them to be that way because it is easier to manipulate the intellectually passive.
First of all I cannot agree that the children are receiving an inadequate education. Generally today they are receiving a fairly good education. Is it perfect? No. Could it be better? Yes. But unfortunately teachers cannot do it alone. They need much more than they have.
As for the adult brainpower,the old phrase "You can take a horse to the trough but you can't make him drink" holds true. The educational systems in North America not only stress life long learning but provide the facilities for it. You can't make people put forth an effort if they don't want to.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Yes, you cannot make people put forth the effort to learn if you cannot penetrate their barriers, which are curiosity and caring. Our schools prepare us for a job but in the process they strangle our curiosity and lead us into passive apathy because we care for nothing beyond our personal world.
Only when all of us begin to comprehend that we are what we allow to be. The enemy is us, all of us. Our schools are not an accident they are designed to be as they are because those who run America wish them to be that way because it is easier to manipulate the intellectually passive.
But, how do I decide?
coberst:-6
I cannot comment on the American educational system.
However, the Canadian educational system does in fact promote thinking, problem solving, moving outside of the box, creativity etc. Your description of the American system does not describe the Canadian system.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I cannot comment on the American educational system.
However, the Canadian educational system does in fact promote thinking, problem solving, moving outside of the box, creativity etc. Your description of the American system does not describe the Canadian system.
Shalom
Ted:-6
But, how do I decide?
Arnold:-6
I am absolutely and totally in agreement with you. While I've tried to be a life long learner I had those obligations as well. Yes I did manage to work some in. However, in retirement, wow! I would suggest though that those who retire do not retire without something to do and it does not matter if it is intellectual and academic or something else like music, bee keeping(ouch, my son does that and he's not retired), gardening or even just enjoying hiking or anything else that takes one's fancy. My own father had many hobbies and after retirement he persued his professional music career as well as many other things including being a shuttle driver for an automobile firm and a pick up and delivery man for an auto supply shop. He enjoyed life to the fullest and never stopped learning.
We really ought discuss the purposes of education. They are not what many folks think or at least should not be.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I am absolutely and totally in agreement with you. While I've tried to be a life long learner I had those obligations as well. Yes I did manage to work some in. However, in retirement, wow! I would suggest though that those who retire do not retire without something to do and it does not matter if it is intellectual and academic or something else like music, bee keeping(ouch, my son does that and he's not retired), gardening or even just enjoying hiking or anything else that takes one's fancy. My own father had many hobbies and after retirement he persued his professional music career as well as many other things including being a shuttle driver for an automobile firm and a pick up and delivery man for an auto supply shop. He enjoyed life to the fullest and never stopped learning.
We really ought discuss the purposes of education. They are not what many folks think or at least should not be.
Shalom
Ted:-6
But, how do I decide?
Ted
“We really ought discuss the purposes of education. Good idea.
I would like to separate education from learning when I try to answer your suggestion.
As I see it, K-12 education is institutionalized and is for the purpose of helping young people learn the fundamental knowledge and skills required to function effectively in our high tech society. After K-12 we have institutionalized higher education facilities that train a person for professional level jobs in our high tech society.
Learning is involved in all of this. The learning is a rather intellectually passive activity and primarily of a rote form.
Learning can continue on into adult life in the form of self-learning but it seldom happens. It is this part of learning that interests me most.
“We really ought discuss the purposes of education. Good idea.
I would like to separate education from learning when I try to answer your suggestion.
As I see it, K-12 education is institutionalized and is for the purpose of helping young people learn the fundamental knowledge and skills required to function effectively in our high tech society. After K-12 we have institutionalized higher education facilities that train a person for professional level jobs in our high tech society.
Learning is involved in all of this. The learning is a rather intellectually passive activity and primarily of a rote form.
Learning can continue on into adult life in the form of self-learning but it seldom happens. It is this part of learning that interests me most.
But, how do I decide?
coberst:-6
It seems to me that your view of the goals of education are rather limited. The major goal is to make each child the best that he or she can be and within that definition can be included such things as math skills and reading skills etc.
To suggest that k-12 learning or education is rote learning is so far from the truth. There is no doubt that there is some rote in all learning or education and that includes those who follow a path of life long learning.
I do not believe for one moment that k-12 education should be in any way to teach people to do this particular job or that. It is to develop the whole person to they best that they can be.
If industry wants X number of electronic engineers then let them train the people for that job. The other option for those industries are trade schools and perhaps some universities.
Shalom
Ted:-6
It seems to me that your view of the goals of education are rather limited. The major goal is to make each child the best that he or she can be and within that definition can be included such things as math skills and reading skills etc.
To suggest that k-12 learning or education is rote learning is so far from the truth. There is no doubt that there is some rote in all learning or education and that includes those who follow a path of life long learning.
I do not believe for one moment that k-12 education should be in any way to teach people to do this particular job or that. It is to develop the whole person to they best that they can be.
If industry wants X number of electronic engineers then let them train the people for that job. The other option for those industries are trade schools and perhaps some universities.
Shalom
Ted:-6
But, how do I decide?
Ted
I think you are throwing up a strawman. "I do not believe for one moment that k-12 education should be in any way to teach people to do this particular job or that."
Your statement "To suggest that k-12 learning or education is rote learning is so far from the truth." Implies to me that you think I am fool enough to buy that malarky. You would have to modify that statement significantly before I could believe that you are interested in discussing what education is about and should be.
I think you are throwing up a strawman. "I do not believe for one moment that k-12 education should be in any way to teach people to do this particular job or that."
Your statement "To suggest that k-12 learning or education is rote learning is so far from the truth." Implies to me that you think I am fool enough to buy that malarky. You would have to modify that statement significantly before I could believe that you are interested in discussing what education is about and should be.
But, how do I decide?
Pinky
What percentage would you guess to be essay type exams in your schools?
What percentage would you guess to be essay type exams in your schools?
But, how do I decide?
coberst:-6
You may call it malarky if you wish but you are wrong.
I spent thirty years as a professional educator and administrator. I have several degrees and many professional designations obtained through university studies; somewhere around 9 or 10 years.
I am in agreement with Pinky. I fail to see the importance to the question about essay type exams.
Over here in BC we have a very conservative institute called the Fraser Institute that proposes every year to rate schools by comaparing them with one another. Not a very bright way to do it. One does not expect the same level of education among the developmentally challenged or the impoverished kids who have never had a good shot at education as one does for a child from an upper class home where money is no object and the children have all kinds of life experiences.
What an absurdity to compare an impoverished child who has not had a breakfaxt with the rich child who gets everything he needs. Parents who are too busy struggling to keep their families alive do not have time to teach and improve their children. They come to school right from the beginning behind the eight ball.
Many think that because they came through the educational system they know it all. That is pure BS. In fact many of the know it alls in fact know screw all.
In Ontrio a former premier, Mike Harris, a conservative and back to the basics type, put education back 40+ years. Like BC they were going to have better education with less money. I don't know what planet that happens on but it is not planet earth.
If you wish to discuss education, I will accommodate you.
Shalom
Ted:-6
You may call it malarky if you wish but you are wrong.
I spent thirty years as a professional educator and administrator. I have several degrees and many professional designations obtained through university studies; somewhere around 9 or 10 years.
I am in agreement with Pinky. I fail to see the importance to the question about essay type exams.
Over here in BC we have a very conservative institute called the Fraser Institute that proposes every year to rate schools by comaparing them with one another. Not a very bright way to do it. One does not expect the same level of education among the developmentally challenged or the impoverished kids who have never had a good shot at education as one does for a child from an upper class home where money is no object and the children have all kinds of life experiences.
What an absurdity to compare an impoverished child who has not had a breakfaxt with the rich child who gets everything he needs. Parents who are too busy struggling to keep their families alive do not have time to teach and improve their children. They come to school right from the beginning behind the eight ball.
Many think that because they came through the educational system they know it all. That is pure BS. In fact many of the know it alls in fact know screw all.
In Ontrio a former premier, Mike Harris, a conservative and back to the basics type, put education back 40+ years. Like BC they were going to have better education with less money. I don't know what planet that happens on but it is not planet earth.
If you wish to discuss education, I will accommodate you.
Shalom
Ted:-6
But, how do I decide?
Ted
Pinky said "If kids aren't taught and encouraged to think for themselves, then how are they meant to write about anything meaningful in exams?"
This led to my question. An essay test is the only means for testing other than rote learning in my opinion. I am not a teacher but it makes sense to me. You could enlighten me as to why I am wrong.
Regarding a discussion of education; BC and US are evidently worlds apart regarding educational institutions. It appears that I know nothing about your system and I assume you are likewise ignorant of the US system.
Pinky said "If kids aren't taught and encouraged to think for themselves, then how are they meant to write about anything meaningful in exams?"
This led to my question. An essay test is the only means for testing other than rote learning in my opinion. I am not a teacher but it makes sense to me. You could enlighten me as to why I am wrong.
Regarding a discussion of education; BC and US are evidently worlds apart regarding educational institutions. It appears that I know nothing about your system and I assume you are likewise ignorant of the US system.
But, how do I decide?
Ted
This is an indication of what "higher" education in the United States is becoming.
"In recent years changes in universities, especially in North America, show that we have entered a new era in higher education, one which is rapidly drawing the halls of academe into the age of automation. Automation - the distribution of digitized course material online, without the participation of professors who develop such material - is often justified as an inevitable part of the new "knowledge-based" society. It is assumed to improve learning and increase wider access. In practice, however, such automation is often coercive in nature - being forced upon professors as well as students - with commercial interests in mind. This paper argues that the trend towards automation of higher education as implemented in North American universities today is a battle between students and professors on one side, and university administrations and companies with "educational products" to sell on the other. It is not a progressive trend towards a new era at all, but a regressive trend, towards the rather old era of mass-production, standardization and purely commercial interests."
http://www.firstmonday.org/issues/issue3_1/noble/
This is an indication of what "higher" education in the United States is becoming.
"In recent years changes in universities, especially in North America, show that we have entered a new era in higher education, one which is rapidly drawing the halls of academe into the age of automation. Automation - the distribution of digitized course material online, without the participation of professors who develop such material - is often justified as an inevitable part of the new "knowledge-based" society. It is assumed to improve learning and increase wider access. In practice, however, such automation is often coercive in nature - being forced upon professors as well as students - with commercial interests in mind. This paper argues that the trend towards automation of higher education as implemented in North American universities today is a battle between students and professors on one side, and university administrations and companies with "educational products" to sell on the other. It is not a progressive trend towards a new era at all, but a regressive trend, towards the rather old era of mass-production, standardization and purely commercial interests."
http://www.firstmonday.org/issues/issue3_1/noble/
But, how do I decide?
One of my favorite proverbs:
IT'S WHAT YOU LEARN AFTER YOU KNOW IT All, THAT COUNTS! :-2
IT'S WHAT YOU LEARN AFTER YOU KNOW IT All, THAT COUNTS! :-2
Cars 
But, how do I decide?
coberst:-6
My reference to your being wrong was in regard to your comment about k-12 education being rote learning. That may be so in the US. I do not know that system.
Essay type exams are only one method of testing learning and thinking ability. There are much better methods available.
There is one which is much more effective and accurate and that is the oral exam. I've been through that in my post graduate work and it does not take a lot of time. Another type of test or exam if you wish is a problem solving project. The approach to grading medical students in part of their programme is to observe them working and evaluating patients and questioning them on their decisions. In fact this approach is far better than a written exam for many things. There are others that I could outline if you wish.
I am in full agreement with you on the university trend in the US to digitized learning. The greatest problem, and I think it may be more advanced in the US than Canada, is the involvement of major corporatiions in universeity education. Monsanto's interference is definitely a very negative factor in education. We had a Canadian pediatrician working with Monsanto on a particular drug. She found it was not effective and was subjected to all kinds of threats if she "opened her mouth". That is morally reprehensible. She spoke up anyway and a great deal of scurrying around went on the try to cover it up. She and her career survived the ordeal.
Monsanto does this with other scientists and other corporations do exactly the same thing. So much for the tail wagging the dog.
Now, I do see where you are coming from. Thanks.
Shalom
Ted:-6
My reference to your being wrong was in regard to your comment about k-12 education being rote learning. That may be so in the US. I do not know that system.
Essay type exams are only one method of testing learning and thinking ability. There are much better methods available.
There is one which is much more effective and accurate and that is the oral exam. I've been through that in my post graduate work and it does not take a lot of time. Another type of test or exam if you wish is a problem solving project. The approach to grading medical students in part of their programme is to observe them working and evaluating patients and questioning them on their decisions. In fact this approach is far better than a written exam for many things. There are others that I could outline if you wish.
I am in full agreement with you on the university trend in the US to digitized learning. The greatest problem, and I think it may be more advanced in the US than Canada, is the involvement of major corporatiions in universeity education. Monsanto's interference is definitely a very negative factor in education. We had a Canadian pediatrician working with Monsanto on a particular drug. She found it was not effective and was subjected to all kinds of threats if she "opened her mouth". That is morally reprehensible. She spoke up anyway and a great deal of scurrying around went on the try to cover it up. She and her career survived the ordeal.
Monsanto does this with other scientists and other corporations do exactly the same thing. So much for the tail wagging the dog.
Now, I do see where you are coming from. Thanks.
Shalom
Ted:-6