500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground

Issie · Post by **Issie** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:20 am

How stupid is this.....

America is supplying Israel with arms/bombs and at the same time supplying Lebanon with aid.

What are you trying to do, fatten them up before you flatten them?

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:57 am

Scrat wrote:

The world is tired of all of this, beyond tired. It is quite evident that Israel is trying to set back the clock 20 years. The Arab world is becoming more angry more "steeled" in their minds as it becomes apparent the lack of real effort and attainable goals for peace Israel has shown. This attempt to destabilize Lebanon and force another civil war on a country only now reaping the benefits of peace and bring it's very COMPETITIVE economy to a halt is transparent to the world.

your argument falls flat on its face when confronted with the fact that jordan and egypt have a lasting, negotiated peace with israel. both 'arab' countries. both bordering israel (the two borders comprising to my eye about 90 percent of israel's borders).

egypt has been at peace with israel since 1978 - 28 years of peace. jordan has been at peace with israel since 1994 - 12 years of peace.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 7:30 pm

so, a longtime existing peace, you denigrate, and then quote those who are fanning the flames of war.

i take it from this you *want* all the neighboring arab states to destroy israel?

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 10:01 am

i'll take that rant as a 'yes' to my question. thanks.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 12:43 pm

so why do you want the state of israel destroyed? the israelis don't have a right to live in their homeland? and please, spare me the 'they took that land'. before that, the land was taken from them. they established their own state by force. they're at peace with their two largest neighbors. work still needs to be done in finding peace with the palestinians, and in pushing back syria's aggression by proxy through hezbollah. remember: for islamofascists, the israeli state is a stain upon islam. and they will never be satisfied until it is destroyed.

the islamofascists have the same opinion of all of western society. the islamofascists want to install the caliphate and shar'ia law worldwide. they have no qualms about doing so via violence, terrorism. the israeli state has not expanded its borders in decades. they want to live in their land, and they're willing to fight to protect it. no expansion of the jewish faith to all others, under penalty of death. no expansion of talmudic law to all under penalty of death.

look at a freaking map. look at israel. look at the rest of the middle east. the islamofascists begrudge the israelis this tiny little sliver of land. it's pathetic.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:13 pm

Scrat wrote: I want peace. If that means the destruction of the state of Israel then that is a price I am willing to pay.

exsqueeze me? that you're willing to pay? please explain how you will pay one damn thing besides a few lines of newspaper text if the state if israel is destroyed. i think it's up to the israelis.

i frankly hope they pummel every comer, which they've done pretty consistently for their entire existence.

Yes, but can we give up the childish tit for tat and learn to live together? Not according to the Torah.

tell it to hezbollah and their perverted reading of the koran. you keep trying to lay this all on israel's doorstep. that, in a word, is crap.

Get out of the Golan and the West Bank. I thought the Persians were behind this?

iran is supplying arms to hezbollah, indeed, among others. remarkably enough, jordan is at peace with israel, with their existing settlements in the west bank. heck, that area's barely in dispute right now. the problem is the 1/10th of israel's border with syria and lebanon, where hezbollah lobs rockets from. no rockets coming from jordan. or egypt. seems that they're working for peace there.

You call me paranoid.:-2 What are you on?

Why don't you explain to me just how they are going to accomplish this world conquest.

why should i have to explain it? they state it matter of factly in every damned idiotic video and audio recording they send out. this isn't news. it's funny, you try so hard to dig up dirt on how bad israel is, while the islamofascists are blowing **** up left, right, east, west, and six days to sunday. but you you're seemingly unaware that infidels must die or convert?

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:56 pm

Scrat wrote: Oh Yes!! Convert Or Die!!!!

Muhahahahahaha!!!

glad you can laugh about it. they aren't my words. they're not terribly funny in my opinion.

yes, there are israeli extremists too. they don't have the israeli government's backing.

so soon people have forgotten the israeli government's forcible expulsion of their own settlers from gaza. this wasn't a trivial move, it was fought bitterly by their own people, but it was done in the hopes of working towards peace.

this photo from that interval is heartbreaking. those are israeli soldiers commiserating with their countrymen at having to expel them.

laugh all you want. try to demonize them all you want.

Attached files

Bronwen · Post by **Bronwen** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:31 am

Here's the bottom line. If you stand out in the streets yelling 'Death to Israel!' and 'Death to America!' you have no legitimate complaint if either of those nations kills you first.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:55 am

Diuretic wrote: What even if it's at the front of my house????
Here's an analogy: if your next door neighbor throws a rock through your window & hits your kid, I'm going to cheer you on as you kick his door in and beat his ass. I may even come over and help.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:06 am

Bronwen wrote: Here's the bottom line. If you stand out in the streets yelling 'Death to Israel!' and 'Death to America!' you have no legitimate complaint if either of those nations kills you first.

On the other hand if you are out on the streets because the first has knocked down your house and taken your land then with the full backing of the latter understandably you are going to go after them any way you can. Being persuaded that that isn't actually what happened and everybody wants to live in peace will be diffucult if not impossible at the point of a gun.

If left with no other means but conflict then conflict is what you have.

There are two ways to end a war.

1)Completely and utterly destroy the enemy

2) come to a peaceful settlement with your enemy.

By definition the only ones you can negoitiate with those you call enemy. Sooner or later israel is going to have to make peace with hamas -you may not like them but the fact is they are the elected choice of the peoiple of palestine. elected in exectly the kind of democratic process supposedly being imposed on Iraq. What will happen when extremists get voted in there as is now very likely thanks to events in Lbanon.

If the only option you are prepared to use is warfare then that is all you are going to get.

You have to hand it to Israel. They have managed to unite the Muslim world, shia and Sunni in a way that they couldn't manage themselves.

Al queda started in Saudi Arabia not palestine or Lebanon but to convince yourself that there is no connection to israel and palestine and US policy in the middle east-well that must take some doing.

I would like peace as well but I don't see it happening any time soon. This current episode is likely to make the situation in the middle East worse and the invasion of lebanon garners support for the extremists turning even those who oppose Hezbollah in to tacit, and if you are not very careful active supporters.

Couse Saudi could bring it all to a halt by turning off the oil taps. The longer thgis goes on the more likely that is going to be.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:31 pm

Diuretic wrote: I'll restrain my inner-Neanderthal Accountable - instead I'll sue my dangerous neighbour and then own his house:D

Sorry I dodged the spirit of the analogy but I went non-serious for a few moments. :oThe point is the thing.

Bronwen · Post by **Bronwen** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:10 am

gmc wrote: a. There are two ways to end a war.

1)Completely and utterly destroy the enemy

2) come to a peaceful settlement with your enemy.

b. You have to hand it to Israel. They have managed to unite the Muslim world, shia and Sunni in a way that they couldn't manage themselves.

c. Couse Saudi could bring it all to a halt by turning off the oil taps. The longer thgis goes on the more likely that is going to be.a. Ah, but there, as the bard said, is the rub. You can't come to a peaceful settlement with terrorists. They will interpret any agreements that are reached as applying in one direction only.

b. I'm not sure your premise is correct, but even if it is, they won't stay united for long.

c. Yeah, and then what do you think would happen?

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:10 am

Bronwen wrote: a. Ah, but there, as the bard said, is the rub. You can't come to a peaceful settlement with ter rorists. They will interpret any agreements that are reached as applying in one direction only.

b. I'm not sure your premise is correct, but even if it is, they won't stay united for long.

c. Yeah, and then what do you think would happen?

Well it happened with Israel for one. The first govt of israel was composed of ex terrorists wanted by the British for blowing up innocent civilians. Nelson mandela was viewed as a terrorist and vehemently condemned as such by amongst others the united states. The IRA are terrorists and sinn fein their political face, would you recommened that the peace process in ireland be scrapped and the bombing begin again. Ian Paisley would agree with you there.

You don't defeat terrorism by armed conflict you remove the basis of their support in the society in which they are based.

As to c. If this keeps up in Lebanon who knows? Al Queda are from saudi originally. Then maybe that would disrupt their money supply if they targeted oil production which is perhaps why they haven't done so yet.

Bronwen · Post by **Bronwen** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:11 am

gmc wrote: Al Queda are from saudi originally. Then maybe that would disrupt their money supply if they targeted oil production which is perhaps why they haven't done so yet.And, as far as I know, wanted dead or alive there. The Saudis are obligated by various international treaties to keep the oil flowing and if they failed to do so the USA would be in control there before you could fill your tank.

That Saudi Arabia might become the target of Islamic terrorism is certainly possible though.

Regarding the other 'terrorists' you described, they did not threaten and are not threatening the entire world. The Islamic hoards are, and must be de-hoarded as quickly as possible.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:12 am

Bronwen wrote: And, as far as I know, wanted dead or alive there. The Saudis are obligated by various international treaties to keep the oil flowing and if they failed to do so the USA would be in control there before you could fill your tank.

That Saudi Arabia might become the target of Islamic terrorism is certainly possible though.

Regarding the other 'terrorists' you described, they did not threaten and are not threatening the entire world. The Islamic hoards are, and must be de-hoarded as quickly as possible.

So if the saudi royal family get overthrown by it's people you accept that the US will invade to prop up one of the least democratic countries in the middle east. Or even if the opec countries decide to hold back the oil to hike the price up you think invasion is OK? Given the US propensity for unitalterally abrogating international treaties when it suits them to try and hold another country to one would be a bit of a cheek to say the least.

As to Islamic terrorists threatening the while world. Get real, they might talk about it but no terrorist organisation will ever bring down a democratic country. The only way that will happen is if people start suporting them en masse and voting them in to office. I can't see the US, UK, Europe China ever voting for a muslim government ruled by sharia law. It's hype being used by politicians to persuade people to turn a blind eye to what is being done in their name.

You can't call for a war on terror and at the same time turn a blind eye to the likes of the IRA. The day the US hand over an IRA suspect for questioning by British authorities has yet to come.

One thing for sure, invading Irag when it clearly had no connection to any terrorist attacks and no WMD's and backing up Israel regardless has done more to gain support for extremist islamic groups than anything else that's happened recently.

If you are worried about losing your freedom then worry about giving your govt powers of arbitrary arrest and the right to spy on it's own citizens and a tendency to call anyone that objects a supporter of terrorists.

Bronwen · Post by **Bronwen** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 1:56 am

gmc wrote: 1. So if the saudi royal family get overthrown by it's people you accept that the US will invade to prop up one of the least democratic countries in the middle east. Or even if the opec countries decide to hold back the oil to hike the price up you think invasion is OK?

2. Given the US propensity for unitalterally abrogating international treaties when it suits them to try and hold another country to one would be a bit of a cheek to say the least.

3. As to Islamic terrorists threatening the while world. Get real, they might talk about it but no terrorist organisation will ever bring down a democratic country. The only way that will happen is if people start suporting them en masse and voting them in to office. I can't see the US, UK, Europe China ever voting for a muslim government ruled by sharia law. It's hype being used by politicians to persuade people to turn a blind eye to what is being done in their name.

4. You can't call for a war on terror and at the same time turn a blind eye to the likes of the IRA. The day the US hand over an IRA suspect for questioning by British authorities has yet to come.

5. One thing for sure, invading Irag when it clearly had no connection to any terrorist attacks and no WMD's and backing up Israel regardless has done more to gain support for extremist islamic groups than anything else that's happened recently.

6. If you are worried about losing your freedom then worry about giving your govt powers of arbitrary arrest and the right to spy on it's own citizens and a tendency to call anyone that objects a supporter of terrorists.1. I'm not going to argue the morality issue. If you wanna we can do that on the religion forum. Selling oil is pretty much those countries' only means of livelihood. You can't eat oil and you can't eat sand. I certainly agree that the USA and other Western nations have been foolish to allow themselves to become so dependent on it.

2. I am not familiar with that propensity. Can you give some examples?

3. You're missing the point. They're attempting to acquire nuclear weapons. That has to be prevented, by ANY means necessary.

4. Two BIG differences. First of all, the IRA's tactics are firmly condemned by the Church to which most of them claim membership. The Islamic terrorists are not only supported by their clergy, in many cases the clergy are the ringleaders.

Secondly, Israel has given the Palestinians one opportunity after another to end the occupation and establish a Palestinian state, every one of which the Palestinains have squandered. Britain has to my knowledge never offered to return the six counties.

5. I don't give a dam whether terrorists like us, I'm not sure I even want them to like us. I just want the terrorism to end. All Israel wants is to live in peace, freedom, and security. Why would any free country NOT support them? Because they fight back when attacked? Gimme a break.

6. Most Americans (not all) are willing to make that sacrifice in order to assist the war against Islamic terrorism. There is no question that many dangerous terrorists have been so apprehended. The same thing is happening here in Germany and I find no problem with it. I want the terrorists rounded up. You should too, given the recent incidents in the UK.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 11:03 am

Bronwen wrote: 1. I'm not going to argue the morality issue. If you wanna we can do that on the religion forum. Selling oil is pretty much those countries' only means of livelihood. You can't eat oil and you can't eat sand. I certainly agree that the USA and other Western nations have been foolish to allow themselves to become so dependent on it.

2. I am not familiar with that propensity. Can you give some examples?

3. You're missing the point. They're attempting to acquire nuclear weapons. That has to be prevented, by ANY means necessary.

4. Two BIG differences. First of all, the IRA's tactics are firmly condemned by the Church to which most of them claim membership. The Islamic terrorists are not only supported by their clergy, in many cases the clergy are the ringleaders.

Secondly, Israel has given the Palestinians one opportunity after another to end the occupation and establish a Palestinian state, every one of which the Palestinains have squandered. Britain has to my knowledge never offered to return the six counties.

5. I don't give a dam whether terrorists like us, I'm not sure I even want them to like us. I just want the terrorism to end. All Israel wants is to live in peace, freedom, and security. Why would any free country NOT support them? Because they fight back when attacked? Gimme a break.

6. Most Americans (not all) are willing to make that sacrifice in order to assist the war against Islamic terrorism. There is no question that many dangerous terrorists have been so apprehended. The same thing is happening here in Germany and I find no problem with it. I want the terrorists rounded up. You should too, given the recent incidents in the UK.

1)Why confine morality to the religion forum? Off topic so I won't pursue it but don't tell me you believe only religious people have morality.

2) I'm sorry but if you don't know much about US foreign policy I suggest you do some research. try a search under treaties abrogated by the united states.

However to help you the most recent examples are the ABM treaty,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1707812.stm

Which should concern you as my understandng is that congress should have some say rather than the president just doing it.

There is of course the issue of the Geneva convention as well. You can hardly preach the moral high ground and at the same time act like a third rate banana republic and throw people in jail without trial without accusations of double standards.

3) Says who? In any case they are so far from having them I would worry more about Pakistan as a country that is unstable, about to become a fundamentalist state and already has them along with the means to deliver them, as does Israel come to that.

4) So why were none excommumicated by the catholic church? Surely commiting murder would warrant that at least?

5) I don't care either but this is not just about Israel living in peace and freedom the issues are not that black and white.

6) I want then rounded up as well. What I am not prepeared to tolerate is giving any government of the UK powers of arbitrary arrest. You can sort out the situation in the US it's your problem. If there is enough evidence to suggest people are terrorists there is enough to charge them. We didn't lock up everybody from Iraland because of the IRA, although Internment (imprisonmemt without trial) was used, it's a moot point whether it didn't make things worse. Nor am I going to tolerate being told I need to carry an ID card in my own country to combat terrorism by a tin pot half wit like Tony Blair. Hoipefully he won't be around for very much longer.

The idea that a bunch of nutty religious extemists are going to bring down any democratic society, especially when the religon is a minority one in those countries is sophistry aimed at the gullible used by those who want everybody living in fear so they can pursue their own demented agenda. If all the states in the middle east got together and declared war on the US or Europe who do you think would win?

All going in to iraq and now this in lebanon has achieved is give credence to the extremists and gain them support.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 7:48 pm

Scrat wrote: People like you and Anastrophe think in a box. You have no ear for history and you have no imagination to help you look into the future using what you know of the past as a reference.

:yh_rotfl :yh_rotfl

this from a guy who claimed with a straight face that there have been only ten genocides in all of human history.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 8:00 pm

Scrat wrote: What is a genocide Anastrophe?

I like you, pick and choose. I'm not into a philosophic debate.

since you're in over your head, i'm not surprised.

genocide is a word with a specific meaning. you're merely off by a few orders of magnitude, but what's a few hundred million innocent lives erased, among friends?

Bronwen · Post by **Bronwen** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:55 am

gmc wrote: 1)Why confine morality to the religion forum? Off topic so I won't pursue it but don't tell me you believe only religious people have morality.

2) I'm sorry but if you don't know much about US foreign policy I suggest you do some research. try a search under treaties abrogated by the united states.

3) I would worry more about Pakistan as a country that is unstable, about to become a fundamentalist state and already has them along with the means to deliver them, as does Israel come to that.

4) So why were none excommumicated by the catholic church? Surely commiting murder would warrant that at least?

5) I don't care either but this is not just about Israel living in peace and freedom the issues are not that black and white.

6a) I want then rounded up as well.

6b. Nor am I going to tolerate being told I need to carry an ID card in my own country to combat terrorism by a tin pot half wit like Tony Blair.

6c. Hopefully he won't be around for very much longer.

7. The idea that a bunch of nutty religious extemists are going to bring down any democratic society, especially when the religon is a minority one in those countries is sophistry aimed at the gullible used by those who want everybody living in fear so they can pursue their own demented agenda. If all the states in the middle east got together and declared war on the US or Europe who do you think would win?

8. All going in to iraq and now this in lebanon has achieved is give credence to the extremists and gain them support.1. It's a meaningless discussion. The oil is not going to be shut off.

2. Well, I'm not sure that withdrawing from a treaty is abrogation. Abrogation is what both the government of Lebanon and the Palestinan authority have done by not ridding their respective lands of the terrorists. Whether the US should have withdrawn is probably beyond the scope of this thread. The citizens of the US want their country protected from terrorists.

3. I worry about that too.

4. I don't think that's grounds for excommunication. It's certainly grounds for condemnation. Has the Presbyterian Church excommunicated Paisley and its other terrorists? Again, beyond the scope of this thread, but you haven't answered my basic question. Why hasn't the UK offered to return the six counties as Israel has offered to return occupied lands in return for an assurance of security?

5. Well, if you think that, I'd like to hear your 'take' on the situation because to me it's pretty basic as I have stated. All the Palestinians have to do to have their own state, and the occupied territory returned, is stop attacking Israel. All Hezbollah has to do to stop the current violence is return the kidnapped soldiers and stop the shelling of Israeli cities. All Lebanon has to do to live in peace with Israel is destroy Hezbollah as the UN mandate requires.

6a. Well, good, glad we can agree on that. The Finsbury Park mosque bust was a good start.

6b. That's something most Europeans take for granted. I have to do that here in Germany and so do German citizens. Like you, Americans don't like the idea either but I think that most of them would be willing to do so in order to combat terrorism.

6c. Surely you're not suggesting that he would be replaced by someone sympathetic to the terrorists.

7. See 3. They're bloodthirsty terrorists and they're trying to acquire nuclear weapons. No doubt the West would be ultimately victorious but at what cost? They must be stopped NOW.

8. Well, the people who support them are idiots and deserve no better than the terrorists. Why would they not support (a) the freely elected government in Iraq and (b) the elimination of the terrorists in Lebanon so that that country could live in peace and security with its Israeli neighbors?

Bronwen · Post by **Bronwen** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 2:07 am

Scrat wrote: No. Here is the bottom line.

There are roughly a billion Muslims in this world and about half of them have very good reasons to support this Jihad.

For the last one hundred years Anglos have been telling them what to do, how to live how to do this, how to do that yadda yadda.

Yadda yadda is right. What bunk! What nonsense! You wanna go live in an Arab hellhole country, go ahead, you have a wide choice of hellholes.

The rest of us are going to protect our way of life. All I hear from Israel is 'Full Speed Ahead! Destroy the terrorists!', and they're doing so. All I hear from the terrorists is 'Cease fire! Cease fire! We can't take any more! Merciful Al-lah, make them STOP!'Scrat wrote: The Hizbollah fighters may have some kind of suit that hides their body heat at night chemically collecting and storing it or using some kind of a heatsink mechanism. I dunno about that, but they certainly have bright yellow streaks running all the way down their backs. Maybe the Isrealis should zero in on that.

Issie · Post by **Issie** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 3:35 am

Get a grip woman, you`ve been watching too many movies, or brainwashed with CNN.

The rest of us are going to protect our way of life.

Yes, but at what cost.? Israel sh*ts on palestine and then bleats on about how we want to live in peace...blah blah blah.

I have stated. All the Palestinians have to do to have their own state, and the occupied territory returned, is stop attacking Israel

How about return the occupied territory?

Hell holes.? Israel made them in Palestine.

Have their own state.? since when did Palestine not exist.?

What`s the name of your God.?

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 4:04 am

Scrat wrote: What is a genocide Anastrophe?

I like you, pick and choose. I'm not into a philosophic debate.

from the oxford english dictionary

genocide

/jennsid/

• noun the deliberate killing of a very large number of people from a particular ethnic group or nation.

— DERIVATIVES genocidal adjective.

— ORIGIN from Greek genos ‘race’ + -CIDE.

Actually genocidal warfare has been the norm throughout history it's the idea of a limited war with only bad people getting killed that is a myth. Religious wars are just a nasty twist on mankinds most enduring habit of killing. The religious wars in europe petered out because people became exhausted and sickened by the fighting not because they decided to live together in christian brotherhood.

Nowadays fighting to extend or defend an empire is frowned upon so is openly saying it is to keep control of resources and it's harder for leaders in democratic countries to get educated populations to go to war just on their say so they have to produce convincing reasons and produce and invent evidence to back up those reasons amd most of all prevent cthose who would criticise from getting any creedence. If you can't win the arguement demonise the speaket as a traitor-a supporter of terrorism. Use terms like axis of evil determined to destroy appeals to the most simplistic xenophobia of the population.

In reality most people in the middle east just want to live in peace and don't care what happens in the west and the idea they want to take over and convert us all to islam is ludicrous. most people in the west don't care what happens in the middle east except we need the oil which is why we took over in the first place. Sure there are fundamentalist muslims that want a muslim world but shia hates sunni just as some catholics hate protestants and vice versa. If they just kept their conflict to themselves no one would mind but god is on their side and they are right.

The longer this goes on in the middle east and the longer Israel is given a free hand and the US, Israel and sadly with TB in charge the UK put two fingers up to wolrld opinion the more extreme things will get. ( I'm british, one finger seems so laughable somehow, an offer of intimacy rather than an honest come on you b(&&^&D you are going to die if you attack me)

The nuances will go out the window and it's just them and us. People don't see a fight for democracy they see western powers interfering in the middle east for no other reason than to protect their interests and arab countries that don't speak out find their populations drawn more and more to extremists, not because they support them per se but out of a sense of frustration that they can't stop it.

Destroying lebanon won't help Israel and add to the legacy of hate for another generation.

posted by bronwen

1. It's a meaningless discussion. The oil is not going to be shut off.

2. Well, I'm not sure that withdrawing from a treaty is abrogation. Abrogation is what both the government of Lebanon and the Palestinan authority have done by not ridding their respective lands of the terrorists. Whether the US should have withdrawn is probably beyond the scope of this thread. The citizens of the US want their country protected from terrorists.

3. I worry about that too.

4. I don't think that's grounds for excommunication. It's certainly grounds for condemnation. Has the Presbyterian Church excommunicated Paisley and its other terrorists? Again, beyond the scope of this thread, but you haven't answered my basic question. Why hasn't the UK offered to return the six counties as Israel has offered to return occupied lands in return for an assurance of security?

5. Well, if you think that, I'd like to hear your 'take' on the situation because to me it's pretty basic as I have stated. All the Palestinians have to do to have their own state, and the occupied territory returned, is stop attacking Israel. All Hezbollah has to do to stop the current violence is return the kidnapped soldiers and stop the shelling of Israeli cities. All Lebanon has to do to live in peace with Israel is destroy Hezbollah as the UN mandate requires.

6a. Well, good, glad we can agree on that. The Finsbury Park mosque bust was a good start.

6b. That's something most Europeans take for granted. I have to do that here in Germany and so do German citizens. Like you, Americans don't like the idea either but I think that most of them would be willing to do so in order to combat terrorism.

6c. Surely you're not suggesting that he would be replaced by someone sympathetic to the terrorists.

7. See 3. They're bloodthirsty terrorists and they're trying to acquire nuclear weapons. No doubt the West would be ultimately victorious but at what cost? They must be stopped NOW.

8. Well, the people who support them are idiots and deserve no better than the terrorists. Why would they not support (a) the freely elected government in Iraq and (b) the elimination of the terrorists in Lebanon so that that country could live in peace and security with its Israeli neighbors?

1) I hope not it would cause economic chaos but remember where this type of extremism started

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story ... 65,00.html

Yet if more of the Muslim world is now open to a newly intolerant and violent strain of Islam, no force has been more responsible than Saudi Arabia. Ever since the 1930s, the Saudis have promoted Wahhabism, the most severe incarnation of Islam. After the oil boom of the early 1970s this became a fundamental tenet of Saudi foreign policy, and a sizeable slice of the country's vast oil revenues has been devoted to promoting Wahhabism at the expense of more tolerant forms of Islam. The Saudis have provoked a clash of civilisations, not so much between east and west as within Islam itself.

2) If you unilaterally declare you will not honour a treaty you are abrogating it, it's not really germane to this however.

4) If divorce and adultery are why not murder? The presbytarian church doesn't have a central authority like the catholic one. He would just start his own kirk taking his followers with him. Must admit I can never understand sectarianism, not being religious it has always seemed a silly thing to get worked up about but I know many for whom it is an abiding passion.

6b It is not something I think we british should accept. Why should we change our way of life and give in to terrorists? Apart from that it does nothing to combat terrorism, we didn't need it during the IRA attacks and having ID cards didn't help the US or Germany prevent attacks did it?

The relationship is wrong, you should be telling your govt what to do not them telling you they need to be able to track your activities.

7) sorry IMO it is a load of nonsense. If you are going to deny others nuclear weapons then don't tell the world that not only are you keeping yours but you are going to improve for the sake of self defence from attack by people who don't have them yet. If they used them they would be obliterated the next day. Nuclear weapons are not a weapon of limited warfare.

Let me put it this way. If your neighbour had a machine gun and clearly showed an inclination to intefere in your life and tell you what to do and by the way you can't have a machine gun what would your response be? Trying to acquire nuclear weapons is a response to a perceived threat

Pakistan is a more serious problem.

How would America react if a terrorist phoned up one day and told the press that they had put something in the water supply? Nuclear weapons are a bogey man that if you believe in you are more likely to make reality.

8) no they're not idiots they see things differently from you and if it's freely elected why are you surprised some oppose it? You have religious zealots in your own country that think it justifiable to blow up abortion clinics and kill the doctors in the name of their faith, Justifiable murder in the name if religon. If religious groups gain support and call for a religious regime in the US and gain the support to do so will you support that. After all they have to put up with a secular authority but why should they have to respect the rights of those who don't share their beliefs?

Religious fanaticism is not just a middle eastern phenomenon, although maybe you could argue that those attracted to monotheistic religon and believe that what they believe is right and everybody else is wrong have a disposition that way. But I like the part ofdevil's advocate:sneaky: After all if they concede someone else might have a valid belief system then they are questioning their own faith. It's a logic loop that is inherently irrational.

http://www.opendemocracy.net/faith/article_871.jsp

Europe’s passage from feudal to modern was attended by some of humanity’s greatest horrors. Can the rest of the world’s passage avoid them?

The Thirty Years War is claimed to have reduced the population of Germany by 40% from 1618–48; a higher percentage than were killed by the Black Death. I lose track of how many hundreds of millions died by genocide and war in the 20th century, not all European of course, but Europe caused most of the trouble.

Maybe the west is just too smug when judging others.

Bronwen · Post by **Bronwen** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:50 am

Issie wrote: 1. Get a grip woman, you`ve been watching too many movies, or brainwashed with CNN.

2. Israel sh*ts on palestine and then bleats on about how we want to live in peace...

3. How about return the occupied territory?

4. Hell holes.? Israel made them in Palestine.

5. Have their own state.? since when did Palestine not exist.?

6. What`s the name of your God?You've stated all of that before, including the 'brainwashed by the media' card, and it doesn't improve a bit with repeated postings. If you want to support your position rationally do so. Posting nonsense proves nothing except your own stupidity.

Let's take them in reverse order.

6. Wrong forum. This is current events.

5. Since 1948. Show me, please, in any contemporary bookstore, or any newsstand, a map or an atlas or a gazeteer that lists Palestine. There ain't no such place, not politically, only historically. And your point is...what?

4. I'm talking about before that. Which Islamic state would you like to live in? As far as I know, there is nothing to prevent you from going there.

3. When Egypt made peace with Israel, the Sinai was returned immediately. Returning the occupied territories without a guarantee of security would be ridiculous and stupid. If returned tomorrow morning, they would be used to attack Israeli by tomorrow afternoon; in fact, that is just what happened with Gaza.

2. You're a little confused. Hamas sends its women and children out to commit atrocities against Israeli civilians while the men run and hide. Who is sh*tting on whom here?

Q1. When was the last Israeli suicide bombing?

Q2. Why did the 'Palestinains' not jump at the chance to establish their own state nearly 60 years ago?

A1. Never been one that I know of.

A2. Jordan, not Israel, laid claim to the land (West Bank) that had been so allotted, a claim that was only recently abandoned. Now there is nothing to prevent a Palestinain state by simply renouncing terrorism and making peace with Israel as Egypt and Jordan have done. Will they do so? OF COURSE NOT! Then they wouldn't be able to murder Jews!

1. Well, I watch CNN, BBC and German channels. The BBC, whom I previously respected, are incredibly biased against Israel. CNN is a bit closer to neutral. The German channels seem to me virtually unbiaed, trying simply to report what is happening. Who would you recommend for balanced coverage, Al Jazeera?

I have, against my better judgment, posted the preceding not for Issie, who will no doubt go on blabbering the same crapola over and over, but for those younger viewers who may not be familair with the history of the region. If I have made any factual errors I would wish to be corrected from documented sources. For more information, consult an UNBIASED source such as an encyclopedia.

The Palestinians have a mandate to destroy Hamas. It is the very first item on the 'Roadmap'.

The Lebanese have a UN mandate to destroy Hezbollah.

Those mandates are the key to peace, freedom and security for Israel, Lebanon, and the possible new 'Palestinian' state. While Hamas and Hezbollah exist there will be, can be, no peace.

Inane rhetoric from anti-Semitic airheads accomplishes nothing.

Issie · Post by **Issie** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 8:42 am

First of all I`m not stupid or an idiot....that`s the second time you have called me an idiot.

Who the ******* do you think you are.?:mad:

if you have to resort to insults......

You are one misguided bigotted cow.

Inane rhetoric from anti-Semitic airheads accomplishes nothing.

And inane rhetoric from the bigotted "who I believe everything I read" and what the TV tells me....in not worth a reply.

Mention hell holes that Israel has created and all of a sudden you`re not talking about that.

Well, I watch CNN, BBC and German channels. The BBC, whom I previously respected, are incredibly biased against Israel. CNN is a bit closer to neutral

If you believe that, then I question who is stupid here.

Keep throwing the anti-semetic card around when all else fails....the world is getting ****ed off with hearing about it, and you say I`m repeating myself.

You are so far up your own @rse lady, that you cannot see the light of day and must be truly constipated.

Go wallow in your idea of what is right and wrong...me, I`d drop a bomb tomorrow on people like you.

And practise what you preach, keep what people wear and the name of their God out of your posts in this thread.

You're a little confused.

debateable.:wah:

koan · Post by **koan** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 2:03 pm

" beasts walking on two legs." Menahim Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the Beasts". New Statesman, 25 June 1982.

"When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle." Raphael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces, New York Times, 14 April 1983.

"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to." Golda Maier, March 8, 1969.

"There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed." Golda Maier Israeli Prime Minister June 15, 1969

"We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves." Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.

"Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it." - Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001

These are one sided quotes. I post them merely to show that both sides have expressed a desire to wipe each other from the face of the Earth.

Bronwen · Post by **Bronwen** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 1:52 am

Issie wrote: First of all I`m not stupid or an idiot....that`s the second time you have called me an idiot.

Who the ******* do you think you are.?:mad:

if you have to resort to insults......

You are one misguided bigotted cow.

Inane rhetoric from anti-Semitic airheads accomplishes nothing.

And inane rhetoric from the bigotted "who I believe everything I read" and what the TV tells me....in not worth a reply.

Mention hell holes that Israel has created and all of a sudden you`re not talking about that.

Well, I watch CNN, BBC and German channels. The BBC, whom I previously respected, are incredibly biased against Israel. CNN is a bit closer to neutral

If you believe that, then I question who is stupid here.

Keep throwing the anti-semetic card around when all else fails....the world is getting ****ed off with hearing about it, and you say I`m repeating myself.

You are so far up your own @rse lady, that you cannot see the light of day and must be truly constipated.

Go wallow in your idea of what is right and wrong...me, I`d drop a bomb tomorrow on people like you.

You're a little confused.

debateable.:wah:In other words, you have no response to any of the facts I've presented here, which is to say, no credibility whatever.

There are MANY elements of the current conflict about which reasonable, sensible people can have intelligent discussions and thoughtful disagreement.

No such thing can occur when Jew haters are part of the mix because it is like swimming in a cesspool. Everything you've posted here has been hate-filled nonsense. You can't support a word of it factually, so, like Hitler, you just keep repeating the same lies hoping that the less-than-intelligent will believe some of it.

Issie wrote: And practise what you preach, keep what people wear and the name of their God out of your posts in this thread.And you go straight to hell. I'll post what's on my mind, and if anything I post violates the rules of the forum I would wish to be informed by a moderator, not a hate-filled loser like yourself.

Your terrorists are being utterly humiliated. Their supply channels have been cut off. Their balls will be next. The Israelis have gone even further into Lebanon than they predicted. If they are not destroying Hezbollah they are certainly making fools of them. Talk is very cheap. The proof is in the puddin'.

These are the scum you support, Issie. While the Israelis work hard to earn a living for their familes and defend their women and children against terrorists, your bunch is lying on their bellies in some filthy mosque, listening to a deranged lunatic rant and rave over a loudspeaker about 'Holy War', then they go out and commit atrocities against their neighbors, using their own women and children as human shields, and taking advantage of the mentally disturbed among them by sending them out to blow themselves up. And meanwhile, the hoardes are in the streets, waving their YELLOW flags and screaming 'Death to Israel! Death to America! Kill them all! We're INNOCENT civilians!'

This is the reality of Islamic terrorism and this is what must be destroyed. The Israelis are off to a good start, but it's going to be a long struggle, and yes, it could very well turn into WW3. If that occurs, there WILL be a brighter tomorrow, a tomorrow without Islamic terrorism.

Bronwen · Post by **Bronwen** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:04 am

koan wrote: " beasts walking on two legs." Menahim Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the Beasts". New Statesman, 25 June 1982.

"When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle." Raphael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces, New York Times, 14 April 1983.

"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to." Golda Maier, March 8, 1969.

"There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed." Golda Maier Israeli Prime Minister June 15, 1969

"We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves." Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.

"Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it." - Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001

These are one sided quotes. I post them merely to show that both sides have expressed a desire to wipe each other from the face of the Earth.Well, I am familiar with all of those quotes except the last two, which are obviously phony, and koan, I'm a little surprised at you, I thought you were above that sort of thing.

I may not agree totally with the first four quotes, but I understand what they are saying. The Palestinians have had chance after chance to better their lot but have rejected every such opportunity in order to continue terrorizing Israel. It's hard to have much respect for people like that, and the authors of the quotes obviously don't. Neither do I. Still, I would like to see a Palestinian state finally established, a state independent from Israel but under its protection in order to assure that terrorism is no longer a factor. All the Palestinians have to do is renounce terrorism and follow the Roadmap to peace. That's all they have EVER had to do.

Issie · Post by **Issie** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:49 am

In other words, you have no response to any of the facts I've presented here, which is to say, no credibility whatever

Just like you had none to answer the questions about America supporting terrorists.

Get a life you sad bitch.

And you go straight to hell. I'll post what's on my mind, and if anything I post violates the rules of the forum I would wish to be informed by a moderator, not a hate-filled loser like yourself.

I`ll see you in hell, you`ll be there before me and if I`m a hate filled loser, then fcuk knows what you are.

What part of this don`t you understand...I do NOT support terrorists, but I refuse to listen to your bile hatred directed at people, because you think you are right.

You have shown your hatred in your posts and you are therefore no better than the people you class as scum.

Get your fat @rse off the chair and your nose off the ceiling and go and see for yourself what Israel has done to the Palestinians

Your terrorists are being utterly humiliated. Their supply channels have been cut off. Their balls will be next. The Israelis have gone even further into Lebanon than they predicted. If they are not destroying Hezbollah they are certainly making fools of them. Talk is very cheap. The proof is in the puddin'.

Funny, I thought you said last week that hezbollah would be defeated in days.

Senile dementia maybe.?

I`ll not put you on my Christmas card list.

koan · Post by **koan** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 7:37 am

Diuretic wrote: http://www.camera.org/index.asp

My only question - what is the independence of CAMERA?

On its website it says:

Not according to my observations, admittedly not all that deep. I couldn't find an article that described corrections that were favourable to the Palestinians. Not saying there's not one there but couldn't find any.

http://www.negevdirect.com/lists/375/usage_history

Well look at that. CAMERA is a Zionist organisation.

Oh well back to square one, wading through the propaganda from all sides.

CAMERA has no credibility. Now, can anyone else find a validation from an independent source of the falsity or truth of the above two quotes given by Koan?

LOL

It is frustrating isn't it?

The Sharon quote was actually said. When the recording surfaced it was said that he was joking but there is some kind of evidence that indicates he was not joking. I'll see if I can find it again. Even if joking, these kind of comments exist and are just as shocking as anti-semitic comments.

Bronwen, we are capable of surprising each other then. I don't think such a dismissive attitude is proper when you discuss anti-semitism. What is the official word for anti-Arab comments? There should be one that carries the same weight when uttered. btw, arabs are semites.