The moral decline.

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Bill Sikes
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The moral decline.

Post by Bill Sikes »

:-)

What is has caused the problem with the youth of today? Is it simply lack of

parental control, or has the availability of such things as magazines, mobile

'phones, contraception, guns, television etc. helped things along?
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capt_buzzard
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The moral decline.

Post by capt_buzzard »

I just posted same on another tread.
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Bill Sikes
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The moral decline.

Post by Bill Sikes »

capt_buzzard wrote: I just posted same on another tread.


Yes, I've just seen it. I thought a new thread would be good, to allow easy

matching of title and likely content.
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Peg
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The moral decline.

Post by Peg »

I think more than anything, Childrens Services has more to do with the way kids are today. You cannot spank your children like you did when we grew up. I can remember my son coming home from grade school and saying I could not spank him or he could call Childrens Services. This is what he was told in school! My response? "You do something bad enough that you deserve your bottom spanked, I'm doing it. I will then even dial the number to Childrens Services for you. When they come, I will be in our home, and you will live with strangers". Yet, there are kids out there being beaten, starved, tortured. CS comes in and does nothing. A good program that has really strayed from it's original intent. As far as tv influence, I don't believe it has as much influence as most people think. I grew up watching Alf and never had the desire to eat cats LOL. Seriously, my children were always allowed to watch about anything, but communication is the key. As far as the media promoting contraception, they should. There's too many kids raising kids already. My son's 15 year old friend is a daddy and I am glad my son realizes what a mistake they made having unprotected sex. I believe it's up to the parents to discourage sex, promote contraception because teens will be teens, and if I felt that my children were having sex even though discouraged to, I would provide contraception.
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Tombstone
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The moral decline.

Post by Tombstone »

I thought this little article had some merit:

-----------------------

-----------------------

Older 'n Dirt

"Hey Dad," one of my kids asked the other day, "What was your favorite

fast food when you were growing up?"

"We didn't have fast food when I was growing up," I informed him. "All

the food was slow."

"C'mon, seriously. Where did you eat?"

"It was a place called 'at home,'" I explained. "Grandma cooked every

day and when Grandpa got home from work, we sat down together at the

dining room table, and if I didn't like what she put on my plate I was

allowed to sit there until I did like it."

By this time, the kid was laughing so hard I was afraid he was going

to suffer serious internal damage, so I didn't tell him the part about

how I had to have permission to leave the table. But here are some

other things I would have told him about my childhood if I figured his

system could have handled it:

Some parents NEVER owned their own house, wore Levis, set foot on a

golf course, traveled out of the country or had a credit card. In

their later years they had something called a revolving charge card.

The card was good only at Sears Roebuck. Or maybe it was Sears AND

Roebuck. Either way, there is no Roebuck anymore. Maybe he died.

My parents never drove me to soccer practice. This was mostly because

we never had heard of soccer. I had a bicycle that weighed probably 50

pounds, and only had one speed, (slow). We didn't have a television in

our house until I was 11, but my grandparents had one before that. It

was, of course, black and white, but they bought a piece of colored

plastic to cover the screen. The top third was blue, like the sky, and

the bottom third was green, like grass. The middle third was red. It

was perfect for programs that had scenes of fire trucks riding across

someone's lawn on a sunny day. Some people had a lens taped to the

front of the TV to make the picture look larger.

I was 13 before I tasted my first pizza, it was called "pizza pie."

When I bit into it, I burned the roof of my mouth and the cheese slid

off, swung down, plastered itself against my chin and burned that,

too. It's still the best pizza I ever had.

We didn't have a car until I was 15. Before that, the only car in our

family was my grandfather's Ford. He called it a "machine."

I never had a telephone in my room. The only phone in the house was in

the living room and it was on a party line. Before you could dial, you

had to listen and make sure some people you didn't know weren't

already using the line.

Pizzas were not delivered to our home. But milk was.

All newspapers were delivered by boys and all boys delivered

newspapers. I delivered a newspaper, six days a week. It cost 7 cents

a paper, of which I got to keep 2 cents. I had to get up at 4 AM every

morning. On Saturday, I had to collect the 42 cents from my customers.

My favorite customers were the ones who gave me 50 cents and told me

to keep the change. My least favorite customers were the ones who

seemed to never be home on collection day.

Movie stars kissed with their mouths shut. At least, they did in the

movies. Touching someone else's tongue with yours was called French

kissing and they didn't do that in movies. I don't know what they did

in French movies. French movies were dirty and we weren't allowed to

see them.

If you grew up in a generation before there was fast food, you may

want to share some of these memories with your children or

grandchildren. Just don't blame me if they bust a gut laughing.

Growing up isn't what it used to be, is it?
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anastrophe
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The moral decline.

Post by anastrophe »

there is no moral decline of youth taking place. this is the old 'everything looks small looking through binoculars backwards' phenomenon. kids aren't becoming less moral, we're becoming more stick-up-our-ass conservative as we age.

i'm not even sure if i'm joking.



:yahoo_sha :yahoo_sil
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Peg
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The moral decline.

Post by Peg »

You know you could have a point there anastophe. :-3

And I really enjoyed the Older 'n dirt tombstone.
thomas40
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Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2004 5:12 pm

The moral decline.

Post by thomas40 »

i agree whtsis goingon with the youth it is th eparental decline today it seens like nowits a trend to be really concerned with,
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Suresh Gupta
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The moral decline.

Post by Suresh Gupta »

Bill Sikes wrote: :-)What is has caused the problem with the youth of today? Is it simply lack of parental control, or has the availability of such things as magazines, mobile 'phones, contraception, guns, television etc. helped things along?


In my opinion the main reason which has caused this problem is lack of proper parental guidance. This is the age of conflicts, both physical and emotional. With communication becoming very fast and effective, young children learn many things. Some of them may not be suitable for their age. This is where parents can play an important role and guide their children. But this guidance should be through example. Parents should practice what they want their children to learn.
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capt_buzzard
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The moral decline.

Post by capt_buzzard »

Tombstone wrote: I thought this little article had some merit:

-----------------------

-----------------------

Older 'n Dirt

"Hey Dad," one of my kids asked the other day, "What was your favorite

fast food when you were growing up?"

"We didn't have fast food when I was growing up," I informed him. "All

the food was slow."

"C'mon, seriously. Where did you eat?"

"It was a place called 'at home,'" I explained. "Grandma cooked every

day and when Grandpa got *****from work, we sat down together at the

dining room table, and if I didn't like what she put on my plate I was

allowed to sit there until I did like it."

By this time, the kid was laughing so hard I was afraid he was going

to suffer serious internal damage, so I didn't tell him the part about

how I had to have permission to leave the table. But here are some

other things I would have told him about my childhood if I figured his

system could have handled it:

Some parents NEVER owned their own house, wore Levis, set foot on a

golf course, traveled out of the country or had a credit card. In

their later years they had something called a revolving charge card.

The card was good only at Sears Roebuck. Or maybe it was Sears AND

Roebuck. Either way, there is no Roebuck anymore. Maybe he died.

My parents never drove me to soccer practice. This was mostly because

we never had heard of soccer. I had a bicycle that weighed probably 50

pounds, and only had one speed, (slow). We didn't have a television in

our house until I was 11, but my grandparents had one before that. It

was, of course, black and white, but they bought a piece of colored

plastic to cover the screen. The top third was blue, like the sky, and

the bottom third was green, like grass. The middle third was red. It

was perfect for programs that had scenes of fire trucks riding across

someone's lawn on a sunny day. Some people had a lens taped to the

front of the TV to make the picture look larger.

I was 13 before I tasted my first pizza, it was called "pizza pie."

When I bit into it, I burned the roof of my mouth and the cheese slid

off, swung down, plastered itself against my chin and burned that,

too. It's still the best pizza I ever had.

We didn't have a car until I was 15. Before that, the only car in our

family was my grandfather's Ford. He called it a "machine."

I never had a telephone in my room. The only phone in the house was in

the living room and it was on a party line. Before you could dial, you

had to listen and make sure some people you didn't know weren't

already using the line.

Pizzas were not delivered to our home. But milk was.

All newspapers were delivered by boys and all boys delivered

newspapers. I delivered a newspaper, six days a week. It cost 7 cents

a paper, of which I got to keep 2 cents. I had to get up at 4 AM every

morning. On Saturday, I had to collect the 42 cents from my customers.

My favorite customers were the ones who gave me 50 cents and told me

to keep the change. My least favorite customers were the ones who

seemed to never be *****on collection day.

Movie stars kissed with their mouths shut. At least, they did in the

movies. Touching someone else's tongue with yours was called French

kissing and they didn't do that in movies. I don't know what they did

in French movies. French movies were dirty and we weren't allowed to

see them.

If you grew up in a generation before there was fast food, you may

want to share some of these memories with your children or

grandchildren. Just don't blame me if they bust a gut laughing.

Growing up isn't what it used to be, is it?


I remember most of that too 'Tombstone, except I did first tasted pizza when I was 15.. And growing up sure isn't what it used to be.
A Karenina
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The moral decline.

Post by A Karenina »

from Paul Harvey:

We tried so hard to make things better for our kids that we made them worse. For my grandchildren, I'd like better.

I'd really like for them to know about hand me down clothes and homemade ice cream and leftover meat loaf sandwiches. I really would.

I hope you learn humility by being humiliated, and that you learn honesty by being cheated.

I hope you learn to make your own bed and mow the lawn and wash the car.

And I really hope nobody gives you a brand new car when you are sixteen.

It will be good if at least one time you can see puppies born and your old dog put to sleep.

I hope you get a black eye fighting for something you believe in.

I hope you have to share a bedroom with your younger brother/sister. And it's all right if you have to draw a line down the middle of the room,but when he wants to crawl under the covers with you because he's scared, I hope you let him.

When you want to see a movie and your little brother/sister wants to tag along, I hope you'll let him/her.

I hope you have to walk uphill to school with your friends and that you live in a town where you can do it safely.

On rainy days when you have to catch a ride, I hope you don't ask your driver to drop you two blocks away so you won't be seen riding with someone as uncool as your Mom.

If you want a slingshot, I hope your Dad teaches you how to make one instead of buying one.

I hope you learn to dig in the dirt and read books.

When you learn to use computers, I hope you also learn to add and subtract in your head.

I hope you get teased by your friends when you have your first crush on a boygirl, and when you talk back to your mother that you learn what ivory soap tastes like.

May you skin your knee climbing a mountain, burn your hand on a stove and stick your tongue on a frozen flagpole.

I don't care if you try a beer once, but I hope you don't like it. And if a friend offers you dope or a joint, I hope you realize he is not your friend.

I sure hope you make time to sit on a porch with your Grandma/Grandpa and go fishing with your Uncle.

May you feel sorrow at a funeral and joy during the holidays.

I hope your mother punishes you when you throw a baseball through your neighbor's window and that she hugs you and kisses you at Hannukah/Christmastime when you give her a plaster mold of your hand.

These things I wish for you - tough times and disappointment, hard work and happiness. To me, it's the only way to appreciate life.

Written with a pen. Sealed with a kiss. I'm here for you. And if I die before you do, I'll go to heaven and wait for you.
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.

Aristotle
A Karenina
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The moral decline.

Post by A Karenina »

Suresh Gupta wrote: In my opinion the main reason which has caused this problem is lack of proper parental guidance. This is the age of conflicts, both physical and emotional. With communication becoming very fast and effective, young children learn many things. Some of them may not be suitable for their age. This is where parents can play an important role and guide their children. But this guidance should be through example. Parents should practice what they want their children to learn.And society needs to help parents back it up. It's all well and fine to say that lack of parental guidance is causing the "moral decline" of our youth. What is being completely overlooked (with the exception of Peg) is how hog-tied parents have become.



I know that my experience as a single mom raising one very rebellious teenage son was a nightmare. I would set a line, but there was no backup for me. The school, the police, the judges, the counselors, etc etc all protected my son - from me! At the same time, I was legally responsible for anything my son did.



When my son chose to run off to a friend's house and stay there for days drinking, the police would not allow me to collect my own child.

When my son was tested for drugs, I was not allowed to know what was in his system or how much was there, but I was warned I damn well better make sure it stops or I could go to jail for it.

When my son broke the law, the police preferred returning him to me rather than prosecuting him, because they could see he was well cared for and the system is already overloaded with kids who are not well cared for.



I could go on and on...somehow, miraculously, my son and I both survived. We are developing a healthy relationship.



But to make a grandiose statement about lack of parental guidance is...well...I know you didn't mean it, Suresh, but it's insulting, offensive, and hurtful. I know there are many parents out there battling the same things I fought.



It was very interesting to see my renegade child suddenly do a 180 and become law-abiding when he turned 18. He didn't want to ruin his life. He just wanted to play as hard as he could during the years he knew there would be no consequences.



THAT'S the problem, in my mind. Teens are supposed to break all the rules they can. Parents and communities are supposed to make them regret it (not by long jail terms or by foster care...). But these days the parents are held accountable for the actions of the child, and we are denied many of the tools that worked for our parents.



JMHO
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.

Aristotle
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Suresh Gupta
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The moral decline.

Post by Suresh Gupta »

yogos wrote: Simply saying that there is a moral decline in our youth today doesn't really say much. There is no precise definition of what a moral decline is? Morality itself has many implications (religious, social, etc.). Simply saying that there's a moral decline is very biased and unacademic. One has to analyze the deeper source of why society is changing, why today's youth is more promiscous and individualistic than it used to be. What are the reason's behind those changes? I think once we are able to answer those questions then the whole controversy behind the moral decline will become more clear. What do you guys think?


I agree with your views that the need is to analyze the deeper source of why society is changing, why today's youth is more promiscous and individualistic than it used to be, and what are the reasons behind these changes? Once these reasons are known then peoper corrections can be determined and applied.

But these reasons would be different in different societies and also the manner in which corrections are applied. Another point which has to be remembered is that one has to look inward also to find out the reasons. Searching for the reasons outside (leaving oneself out of scrutiny) will not serve the purpose.
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Suresh Gupta
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Post by Suresh Gupta »

A Karenina wrote: And society needs to help parents back it up. It's all well and fine to say that lack of parental guidance is causing the "moral decline" of our youth. What is being completely overlooked (with the exception of Peg) is how hog-tied parents have become.



I know that my experience as a single mom raising one very rebellious teenage son was a nightmare. I would set a line, but there was no backup for me. The school, the police, the judges, the counselors, etc etc all protected my son - from me! At the same time, I was legally responsible for anything my son did.



When my son chose to run off to a friend's house and stay there for days drinking, the police would not allow me to collect my own child.

When my son was tested for drugs, I was not allowed to know what was in his system or how much was there, but I was warned I damn well better make sure it stops or I could go to jail for it.

When my son broke the law, the police preferred returning him to me rather than prosecuting him, because they could see he was well cared for and the system is already overloaded with kids who are not well cared for.



I could go on and on...somehow, miraculously, my son and I both survived. We are developing a healthy relationship.



But to make a grandiose statement about lack of parental guidance is...well...I know you didn't mean it, Suresh, but it's insulting, offensive, and hurtful. I know there are many parents out there battling the same things I fought.



It was very interesting to see my renegade child suddenly do a 180 and become law-abiding when he turned 18. He didn't want to ruin his life. He just wanted to play as hard as he could during the years he knew there would be no consequences.



THAT'S the problem, in my mind. Teens are supposed to break all the rules they can. Parents and communities are supposed to make them regret it (not by long jail terms or by foster care...). But these days the parents are held accountable for the actions of the child, and we are denied many of the tools that worked for our parents.



JMHO


I will agree with what you say as it is your personal experience.

But i would like to comment that the approach of most of the parents and society towards this problem is not pro-active (by society I mean all, the family, the school, the police, the judges, the counselors .....). They wlll bother about the problem only when they are faced with it, and even then they will try to pass it on to each other.

I will once again repeat that parents have a larger responsibility towards their children. Moral education starts from the mother and this foundation should be very strong. When children go out in the world this strong foundation will save them from all sorts of fatal attractions and moral degradations.
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Suresh Gupta
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The moral decline.

Post by Suresh Gupta »

Melancholia wrote: I think that today's youth are pretty remarkable. It is a difficult world to navigate even as an adult.


You are right. One should not blame only the youth for moral decline. All members of the society are responsible.

Is there a moral decline? I don't know.


Yes there is a moral decline. Morals are fundamental truths and related practices and do not change with time. It is only peoples' interpretation of these morals which changes, and if the interpretation is negative then it is said that moral decline is there.

While people (including youth) are becoming more broad-minded and accepting of others, our society as a whole continues to be fueled by exploitation. How can we expect our children not to exploit resources, power, and bodies, when we all actively participate in the same? :confused:


I have always believed and it has been my experience also that any leadership, counselling, persuation would be effective only when domonstrated by examples. Being broadminded and acceptance of others' views and actions need a definition of tolerance limits. Similarly exploitation has to be checked and contained within specified tolerance limits. If such an environment is created then we can certainly expect children not to exploit resources, power and bodies. Moral decline will automatically be arrested to a large extent.
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capt_buzzard
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The moral decline.

Post by capt_buzzard »

Suresh Gupta wrote: In my opinion the main reason which has caused this problem is lack of proper parental guidance. This is the age of conflicts, both physical and emotional. With communication becoming very fast and effective, young children learn many things. Some of them may not be suitable for their age. This is where parents can play an important role and guide their children. But this guidance should be through example. Parents should practice what they want



their children to learn.


I agree with you Suresh
A Karenina
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Post by A Karenina »

Suresh Gupta wrote: But i would like to comment that the approach of most of the parents and society towards this problem is not pro-active (by society I mean all, the family, the school, the police, the judges, the counselors .....). They wlll bother about the problem only when they are faced with it, and even then they will try to pass it on to each other. Do you really feel that the majority of parents are not pro-active? Are you saying they/we are neglectful?



I don't know what kind of experiences you have had. I raised my son in a quiet suburban neighborhood. I stayed home until he hit age 12, and then I worked part-time while he was at school. I was the primary teacher/nurturer/care-giver. I also know my husband couldn't be bothered to teach the boy values so that also fell to me.

There was nothing in my life more important than raising him. Nothing.

I am not remotely unique.



Although I don't know the majority of parents, I've met hundreds of parents through PTA, coaching sports, doing community services, and then later through counseling. Out of those hundreds, I can name only one parent who wasn't committed to their child. One.



Don't mis-understand what I am saying. I believe the police, judges, and counselors care as well. I know that they were very lenient with my son because he was raging against his circumstances (his father was dying of cancer). They could see he was well-mannered, well fed, well dressed, and obviously had parents that loved him. So they let him go rather than showing him the consequences of bad choices.



I understand why they did what they did. But what my son really needed was for everyone to say, "I'm sorry you are losing your father. It is tragic. But tragedy does not release you from the obligation of being a good person." I said it, but my voice was alone and easily ignored.



It is not the people in the system - it is the system itself. It is over-burdened and mis-used. There is no support for many parents, and we need that. Single parents currently comprise over 25% of our population.



Suresh Gupta wrote: I will once again repeat that parents have a larger responsibility towards their children. Moral education starts from the mother and this foundation should be very strong. When children go out in the world this strong foundation will save them from all sorts of fatal attractions and moral degradations.Stunning! So if the child turns our badly, it is the mother's fault? She didn't provide a moral foundation strong enough to withstand fatal attractions and degradations?



I'm not buying it, Suresh. Child-rearing is a two-way street. Children are human, you see. They have personalities, choices, desires, and thoughts of their own. They come as a full package.

A good parent will understand their offspring as best they can, and provide learning opportunities for the child to help strengthen the good, and help train/harness the bad. (We ALL have good and bad.)



The burden of child-rearing rests on the child as well. They can choose to resist everything they are taught. They can choose to pick through that which they agree with and use it. They can follow the parent single-mindedly. We have all kinds of kids. But it's not wise to ignore the fact that children have choices and they make them every day.



I'm not suggesting that the answer is as simple as I've portrayed it here.

I do think media plays a role by giving visuals (very powerful impact) and access to information that was unheard of when I was growing up.

I do think we've lost decency as a whole and there are not a lot of examples to follow.

I think people tend to mind their own business, and not one person ever offered the kids on our block fresh cookies or threatened to tell their mothers when they did something bad.

I think we as a society are so busy concentrating on the bad parts of life that we don't offer a great deal of hope to our kids - look, son, when you grow up you can be tired and poor just like Mom and Dad!

I think we try to protect them from hardship and by doing so we deny them opportunities to learn necessary life skills.



But I see the lack of support to parents as the biggest problem. It does begin with parenting - I just disagree that it's the mother only, and that it ends with the parents as well.

When our kids want to push against the rules, the rules need to stand firm. Parents can't do that alone, not after kids reach a certain age. So the government needs to back off and let parents provide consequences to their own children. Children need to be accepted as an integral part of society, not a useless (although adorable) off-shoot. We need to recognize they are the future and invest in that - all of us.



That's my lecture/rant.
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.

Aristotle
koan
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The moral decline.

Post by koan »

A Karenina wrote: That's my lecture/rant.


You deserve a good rant!

What an incredible story to read, as a parent. I worry about what trials and tribulations my daughter will face when she hits the teenage years. Hearing how you made it through gives me some hope. You sound like an incredible parent.

I agree that parents need more support. From each other. I find that most other parents are comparative with the goal of being better than other parents and love to find fault with other people's children. I have the same philosophy that children are individuals and must be treated as such. You can not apply a guidebook approach to helping children live their lives happily. I think part of the challenge of raising kids is that we tend to be given little people with traits that we do not normally understand in other people so relating to them can be a struggle in overcoming our own, personal boundaries.

As far as 'moral decline' goes, I think that it is harder and harder for kids to define themselves as a generation. It is during the search for identity phase that they tend to be the most morally questionable. Who wants to be told that it has all been said before you even start talking. They are in search of attention and identity. SEE ME! If the search for personal power is answered quickly the need to derive it calms down before much trouble arises.

I think most of the worlds problems derive from lack of personal power.

In this case, losing his father was beyond his control and something that could not be easily resolved. He made it because he had a mother that is so devoted. Congratulations!

The world promotes power. Money power, religious power, political power...these kids want to know where their power is. How are they going to succeed in this power hungry arena without stealing power from other people?

The people who came up with child-centred rearing practices have been officially deemed to have *oops* made a mistake. But the laws and mores that developed from this philosophy have not been corrected and still perpetuate the problem.

I think the best approach is to deal with them as little versions of of adult people and teach them that they get the amount of respect they earn. Nothing comes for free and maybe they are just as disappointed and angry when they find out they are NOT the centre of the universe as they may have been raised.
A Karenina
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The moral decline.

Post by A Karenina »

koan wrote: You deserve a good rant!



What an incredible story to read, as a parent. I worry about what trials and tribulations my daughter will face when she hits the teenage years. Hearing how you made it through gives me some hope. You sound like an incredible parent.



I agree that parents need more support. From each other. I find that most other parents are comparative with the goal of being better than other parents and love to find fault with other people's children. I have the same philosophy that children are individuals and must be treated as such. You can not apply a guidebook approach to helping children live their lives happily. I think part of the challenge of raising kids is that we tend to be given little people with traits that we do not normally understand in other people so relating to them can be a struggle in overcoming our own, personal boundaries.



As far as 'moral decline' goes, I think that it is harder and harder for kids to define themselves as a generation. It is during the search for identity phase that they tend to be the most morally questionable. Who wants to be told that it has all been said before you even start talking. They are in search of attention and identity. SEE ME! If the search for personal power is answered quickly the need to derive it calms down before much trouble arises.



I think most of the worlds problems derive from lack of personal power.



In this case, losing his father was beyond his control and something that could not be easily resolved. He made it because he had a mother that is so devoted. Congratulations!



The world promotes power. Money power, religious power, political power...these kids want to know where their power is. How are they going to succeed in this power hungry arena without stealing power from other people?



The people who came up with child-centred rearing practices have been officially deemed to have *oops* made a mistake. But the laws and mores that developed from this philosophy have not been corrected and still perpetuate the problem.



I think the best approach is to deal with them as little versions of of adult people and teach them that they get the amount of respect they earn. Nothing comes for free and maybe they are just as disappointed and angry when they find out they are NOT the centre of the universe as they may have been raised.
koan!! :yh_worshp I love your post! And not just because we are in complete agreement, either! LOL



It sounds to me like you and your daughter will make it through the teenage years just fine. You are definitely thinking about what's important to you as a parent and to her as a developing person. You rock!



I'm convinced the purpose of teenage rebellion is to help the mom let go. LOL...Yes, dear, it's a GREAT idea for you to travel through Europe on a bike for 2 years. Send postcards and dress warm!



I'm kidding, and yet not.



I am sincerely humbled by your praise. I don't feel like a good parent, but I do know I love that kid of mine. He's turned out ok in the end mostly because he chose to. We discuss it from time to time. He often says that the one thing that mattered to him the most was that he knew he was loved. He has never doubted that love. He has told me of things he disagrees with, and quite frankly he's STILL pissed off that I temporarily took away his GI Joe toys at age 9 (sheesh! LOL)...But he easily forgives my mistakes - and I find that amazingly beautiful!



I should end this before I begin my endless bragging about my son! Puts people to sleep when I start on that :) I'm wondering how long it will take and what we need to do before we can balance the laws out once again. We need to protect those who are abused, but the way we've chosen isn't working. Time for some new ideas.



Thanks for your thoughts!
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Post by koan »

A Karenina wrote: koan!! :yh_worshp I love your post! And not just because we are in complete agreement, either! LOL

Glad to bring you a little joy. :yh_worshp to you as well.



It sounds to me like you and your daughter will make it through the teenage years just fine. You are definitely thinking about what's important to you as a parent and to her as a developing person. You rock!

Thanks. I have encountered much objection to how I raise her. People think that children should be sheltered from everything and deny that there is any intelligence despite the wise things that come 'from the mouths of babes'. The biggest complaint is that she is too mature to play normal, mindless games with their children (she likes chess) and *get this* her imagination is so developed the kids can't keep up with her. The babysitter actually said that!



I'm convinced the purpose of teenage rebellion is to help the mom let go. LOL...Yes, dear, it's a GREAT idea for you to travel through Europe on a bike for 2 years. Send postcards and dress warm!



I'm kidding, and yet not. I know exactly what you mean!



I am sincerely humbled by your praise. I don't feel like a good parent, but I do know I love that kid of mine. He's turned out ok in the end mostly because he chose to. We discuss it from time to time. He often says that the one thing that mattered to him the most was that he knew he was loved. He has never doubted that love. He has told me of things he disagrees with, and quite frankly he's STILL pissed off that I temporarily took away his GI Joe toys at age 9 (sheesh! LOL)...But he easily forgives my mistakes - and I find that amazingly beautiful!

Most good parents think they have failed somehow. If you weren't a good parent the issue would not concern you enough to have that thought.



I should end this before I begin my endless bragging about my son! Puts people to sleep when I start on that :) I'm wondering how long it will take and what we need to do before we can balance the laws out once again. We need to protect those who are abused, but the way we've chosen isn't working. Time for some new ideas.



Thanks for your thoughts!


Can child abuse be 'fixed'? The changes must be made to the abusers and I don't know if that is possible. People exercise control and abuse over the weaker prey. Always have, always will. The support lines and recovery houses are too few to handle the amount of abuse and the government agencies are so bound by red tape that the workers become embittered and lose the compassion that got them into social work in the first place. As with most things, the more the government interferes, the more screwed up things get.

I have this fantasy of returning to a time when your neighbourhood was your insurance agency. Everyone looked out for each other and it was a massive extended family. If we stop competing with each other, we may be able to fix some of these societal problems. In the past, when neighbours DID care for each other, it was taboo to discuss abuse and that is why it was not remedied. Now that we know it is ok to tell someone and we have increased our knowledge on human rights (being that woman and children have them too) our understanding would allow us to help our neighbours with all their problems.

I'm the type who takes in human strays. I open my door to anyone in need and send them back out there when they are strong again. Sometimes I get bit but that is not enough to close my heart to the needy.

Want to fix the world? Start with yourselves. Love thy neighbour!!!!!

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Post by Suresh Gupta »

A Karenina wrote: Do you really feel that the majority of parents are not pro-active? Are you saying they/we are neglectful?

I don't know what kind of experiences you have had. I raised my son in a quiet suburban neighborhood. I stayed home until he hit age 12, and then I worked part-time while he was at school. I was the primary teacher/nurturer/care-giver. I also know my husband couldn't be bothered to teach the boy values so that also fell to me.

There was nothing in my life more important than raising him. Nothing.

I am not remotely unique.

Although I don't know the majority of parents, I've met hundreds of parents through PTA, coaching sports, doing community services, and then later through counseling. Out of those hundreds, I can name only one parent who wasn't committed to their child. One.

Don't mis-understand what I am saying. I believe the police, judges, and counselors care as well. I know that they were very lenient with my son because he was raging against his circumstances (his father was dying of cancer). They could see he was well-mannered, well fed, well dressed, and obviously had parents that loved him. So they let him go rather than showing him the consequences of bad choices.

I understand why they did what they did. But what my son really needed was for everyone to say, "I'm sorry you are losing your father. It is tragic. But tragedy does not release you from the obligation of being a good person." I said it, but my voice was alone and easily ignored.


Dear Karenina, it is only my view point. I did not post it under this thread to criticise parents and to undermine their love and concern towards their children. You did your best for your son. I am sorry things did not come out as you wanted them. May be the reason is, in your own words, "what my son really needed was for everyone to say, 'I'm sorry you are losing your father. It is tragic. But tragedy does not release you from the obligation of being a good person.' I said it, but my voice was alone and easily ignored".



It is not the people in the system - it is the system itself. It is over-burdened and mis-used. There is no support for many parents, and we need that. Single parents currently comprise over 25% of our population.


Who makes the system? And if it goes bad then who should be held responsible, people or system?



Stunning! So if the child turns our badly, it is the mother's fault? She didn't provide a moral foundation strong enough to withstand fatal attractions and degradations?

I'm not buying it, Suresh. Child-rearing is a two-way street. Children are human, you see. They have personalities, choices, desires, and thoughts of their own. They come as a full package.

A good parent will understand their offspring as best they can, and provide learning opportunities for the child to help strengthen the good, and help train/harness the bad. (We ALL have good and bad.)

The burden of child-rearing rests on the child as well. They can choose to resist everything they are taught. They can choose to pick through that which they agree with and use it. They can follow the parent single-mindedly. We have all kinds of kids. But it's not wise to ignore the fact that children have choices and they make them every day.

I'm not suggesting that the answer is as simple as I've portrayed it here.

I do think media plays a role by giving visuals (very powerful impact) and access to information that was unheard of when I was growing up.

I do think we've lost decency as a whole and there are not a lot of examples to follow.

I think people tend to mind their own business, and not one person ever offered the kids on our block fresh cookies or threatened to tell their mothers when they did something bad.

I think we as a society are so busy concentrating on the bad parts of life that we don't offer a great deal of hope to our kids - look, son, when you grow up you can be tired and poor just like Mom and Dad!

I think we try to protect them from hardship and by doing so we deny them opportunities to learn necessary life skills.

But I see the lack of support to parents as the biggest problem. It does begin with parenting - I just disagree that it's the mother only, and that it ends with the parents as well.

When our kids want to push against the rules, the rules need to stand firm. Parents can't do that alone, not after kids reach a certain age. So the government needs to back off and let parents provide consequences to their own children. Children need to be accepted as an integral part of society, not a useless (although adorable) off-shoot. We need to recognize they are the future and invest in that - all of us.

That's my lecture/rant.


If the child turns our badly, it is certainly not the mother's fault only. But it is mother's child. For others it may not be that important.

Child-rearing is not a two-way street. What you are talking is about children of that age when they can understand their personality, choices, desires, and have thoughts of their own. But the damage, if any, has already been done. I am talking about children when they have to be taught what is good or bad for them. I am talking of making a strong base on which their entire life will be built. Entire focus of my views is on first few years of child's life. And this is where parents should be highly cautious in their words, actions and efforts. I hope that you will take my views from this angle.
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Post by koan »

A couple of interjections here, if I may?

Who makes the system? And if it goes bad then who should be held responsible, people or system?


The "people"? The government makes the system. I don't believe I ever got to personally vote on the system in question and the political leaders that we vote on never really do what they say anyway. It is all red tape and nepotism.

If the "people" can rearrange how Children's Services is set up....without giving up your career to spend the next few years lobbying on the polititians doorsteps and spending every last minute writing letters to the Senate instead of spending it with your troubled child...how is that done? Have you ever tried to get a group together and get them to keep showing up for meetings?

If the child turns our badly, it is certainly not the mother's fault only. But it is mother's child. For others it may not be that important.


Fault, fault, fault...see this is where things start to go badly. Are you suggesting that it is natural for fathers not to find their children important? Probably not, just asking.

Child-rearing is not a two-way street. What you are talking is about children of that age when they can understand their personality, choices, desires, and have thoughts of their own. But the damage, if any, has already been done. I am talking about children when they have to be taught what is good or bad for them. I am talking of making a strong base on which their entire life will be built. Entire focus of my views is on first few years of child's life. And this is where parents should be highly cautious in their words, actions and efforts. I hope that you will take my views from this angle.


NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.... this is what a two year old says all day. What about that lovely phase where they beat their primary caregiver? I loved that one. A two year old can really pack a punch. The rebellion starts then. Let's see...before that happened, I picked her up when she cried, I massaged her little baby limbs every day so she would feel loved and attached to the world. I sang, made her laugh, tickled her and loved her more than I knew I could love anything then BOOM. You take an ideal and try to apply it to something that will not be fit into a mould. Children are NOT the "product of their parents". Children are whatever they were born to be with whatever process, personality and life lessons that were set for them to experience. How dare I take credit for this incredible work of art????

I reason with my daughter because if I can make her see reason...I can do anything! :yh_sweat
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koan wrote: A couple of interjections here, if I may? The "people"? The government makes the system. I don't believe I ever got to personally vote on the system in question and the political leaders that we vote on never really do what they say anyway. It is all red tape and nepotism.

If the "people" can rearrange how Children's Services is set up....without giving up your career to spend the next few years lobbying on the polititians doorsteps and spending every last minute writing letters to the Senate instead of spending it with your troubled child...how is that done? Have you ever tried to get a group together and get them to keep showing up for meetings?


The "people" of course. And the government is also made of people. So people make the system. People run the system, good or bad. Then how come people should blame the system if it goes bad?

Why do you need Children Services Groups for looking after your children?



Fault, fault, fault...see this is where things start to go badly. Are you suggesting that it is natural for fathers not to find their children important? Probably not, just asking.


No I am not suggesting that. By 'others' I mean other people in the society. They can't be expected to worry about your child as you worry about him or her.



NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.... this is what a two year old says all day. What about that lovely phase where they beat their primary caregiver? I loved that one. A two year old can really pack a punch. The rebellion starts then. Let's see...before that happened, I picked her up when she cried, I massaged her little baby limbs every day so she would feel loved and attached to the world. I sang, made her laugh, tickled her and loved her more than I knew I could love anything then BOOM. You take an ideal and try to apply it to something that will not be fit into a mould. Children are NOT the "product of their parents". Children are whatever they were born to be with whatever process, personality and life lessons that were set for them to experience. How dare I take credit for this incredible work of art????


You are dealing with a child not an adult. Don't put meaning on their actions. Children are certainly the "product of their parents". No parent can deny that.

I reason with my daughter because if I can make her see reason...I can do anything! :yh_sweat


You are trying to reason with your 2 years old daughter?
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Post by A Karenina »

Suresh Gupta wrote: Dear Karenina, it is only my view point. I did not post it under this thread to criticise parents and to undermine their love and concern towards their children. You did your best for your son. I am sorry things did not come out as you wanted them. May be the reason is, in your own words, "what my son really needed was for everyone to say, 'I'm sorry you are losing your father. It is tragic. But tragedy does not release you from the obligation of being a good person.' I said it, but my voice was alone and easily ignored". Suresh, I'm passionate about this subject...does it show? (wry grin). Perhaps I misinterpreted your posts.



The current laws in the US really do strip away parental rights. It makes it very difficult for dedicated parents. The laws were intended to provide rights for abused children, but have become muddled, cumbersome, and no longer apply to the reality.





Suresh Gupta wrote: Who makes the system? And if it goes bad then who should be held responsible, people or system? This is a blame game. It doesn't really matter how these things came into being so much as what we need to do to change it. I agree with koan in that it would take several full-time activists a few years to begin making inroads.



It is entirely possible that it will be up to parents whose children are grown, who have the luxury of more time, have experience with the system as is to make these changes. I know that I will be far more involved once my obligation to myself is fulfilled (in terms of finishing college and securing my own financial security). Hopefully other parents will be willing to work on it with me. I know the police would like to see some serious changes - and that makes progress very likely.



Suresh Gupta wrote: Child-rearing is not a two-way street. What you are talking is about children of that age when they can understand their personality, choices, desires, and have thoughts of their own. But the damage, if any, has already been done. I am talking about children when they have to be taught what is good or bad for them. I am talking of making a strong base on which their entire life will be built. Entire focus of my views is on first few years of child's life. And this is where parents should be highly cautious in their words, actions and efforts. I hope that you will take my views from this angle.I completely agree that the early years, the developmental years, are crucial. :) The time we invest in them while they are younger builds strong relationships, a healthy sense of self, and sets their view of the world (is it scary? is it safe? am I loved? am I important?)



But I definitely found it to be a two-way street.

(laughing) I've often said there is the easy way, the hard way, and John's way...John is my son, and he insisted on finding the most difficult path to learn a concept every time. He admits it, and laughs about it himself. He has a good sense of self, he knows he is loved...and yet he still made bad choices.



I believe they come with their own individual and distinct personalities because ...well, not to brag or anything but I am not nearly so hard-headed. :D Neither was his dad. But along comes this child who never hesitated to loudly voice his wants and needs.



He wanted to play ball in the street.

He wanted dessert before dinner.

He wanted to ride the dog.



Kids are kids, you know? They make up their own minds about things. A good parent can guide them, but we aren't able to Rambo in and change their brainwaves.



So, we must work with who we have. My son required real life experience and then some time to himself to understand things. When these 2 conditions were met, then he learned. It was my job to provide these 2 conditions whenever possible. I can't learn for him, I wish I could! But I can't - that's HIS job, and hence the two-way street.



That was true even from an early age. Example: "Don't touch the stove, John, it's hot." But 'hot' has no context for a young one, and so they must touch it, get burned, and then understand 'hot'. I do my part, to warn and teach - he does his part, to experience and learn.



Does that make sense? I'm enjoying the dialogue. It's very interesting.
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Post by koan »

The "people" of course. And the government is also made of people. So people make the system. People run the system, good or bad. Then how come people should blame the system if it goes bad?


There is something really circular about this one a la "Who's on first?"

Why do you need Children Services Groups for looking after your children?


We don't. That was the complaint...the interference of the system and their wacky ideas.

You are dealing with a child not an adult. Don't put meaning on their actions. Children are certainly the "product of their parents". No parent can deny that.


I can and will continue to deny that. A parent who enacts that theory on their child is one of those horrible entities who tries to make their child an extension of themselves and the child is forced to fulfill all the parent's dreams. I call them "hockey moms" (as an example)

You are trying to reason with your 2 years old daughter?


She is nine now. My :yh_sweat was supposed to convey :wah:
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Post by Suresh Gupta »

A Karenina wrote: Suresh, I'm passionate about this subject...does it show? (wry grin). Perhaps I misinterpreted your posts.


Yes it does show. I understand and appreciate your concern. It is natural.



The current laws in the US really do strip away parental rights. It makes it very difficult for dedicated parents. The laws were intended to provide rights for abused children, but have become muddled, cumbersome, and no longer apply to the reality.


It happens. Sometime laws are made to help people but in the process loose the intended sight. I have always felt that children should be treated as a national resource, but to bring them up a balanced approach should be adopted by parents, society and the government. Stripping away parental rights is not the right approach. It will deny the basic foundation training so vital for the children.





This is a blame game. It doesn't really matter how these things came into being so much as what we need to do to change it. I agree with koan in that it would take several full-time activists a few years to begin making inroads.

It is entirely possible that it will be up to parents whose children are grown, who have the luxury of more time, have experience with the system as is to make these changes. I know that I will be far more involved once my obligation to myself is fulfilled (in terms of finishing college and securing my own financial security). Hopefully other parents will be willing to work on it with me. I know the police would like to see some serious changes - and that makes progress very likely.

I completely agree that the early years, the developmental years, are crucial. :) The time we invest in them while they are younger builds strong relationships, a healthy sense of self, and sets their view of the world (is it scary? is it safe? am I loved? am I important?)

But I definitely found it to be a two-way street.

(laughing) I've often said there is the easy way, the hard way, and John's way...John is my son, and he insisted on finding the most difficult path to learn a concept every time. He admits it, and laughs about it himself. He has a good sense of self, he knows he is loved...and yet he still made bad choices.

I believe they come with their own individual and distinct personalities because ...well, not to brag or anything but I am not nearly so hard-headed. :D Neither was his dad. But along comes this child who never hesitated to loudly voice his wants and needs.

He wanted to play ball in the street.

He wanted dessert before dinner.

He wanted to ride the dog.

Kids are kids, you know? They make up their own minds about things. A good parent can guide them, but we aren't able to Rambo in and change their brainwaves.

So, we must work with who we have. My son required real life experience and then some time to himself to understand things. When these 2 conditions were met, then he learned. It was my job to provide these 2 conditions whenever possible. I can't learn for him, I wish I could! But I can't - that's HIS job, and hence the two-way street.

That was true even from an early age. Example: "Don't touch the stove, John, it's hot." But 'hot' has no context for a young one, and so they must touch it, get burned, and then understand 'hot'. I do my part, to warn and teach - he does his part, to experience and learn.


You are right. Every society has its own problems and opportunities. You have certainly given a deep thought to these issues and come out with solutions, which I hope will provide you the desired results.



Does that make sense? I'm enjoying the dialogue. It's very interesting.


Yes it makes sense. I am happy that you are enjoying the debate. It is really very interesting.
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Post by persephone »

When the youths of today see their idols behaving in this manner Vibe Awards Stabbing and Dr Dre gets punched and in the UK yet another member of So Solid Crew is being hunted for gun crimes From the Guardian, what do we expect.
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That is true, except that kids now have weapons more often than not.

People often tell me off for walking around my area late at night by myself, the youths stand around in gangs on the pavement, but it's all about how you project yourself. I'll walk confidently towards them and watch them move out of my way as I walk through, I've even been known to stop and silently wait for them to move, rather than walking into the road to walk round.

When I was growing up, we didn't have weapons but it was said (and not by us) that we were a gang, because we met up as a group on a play area every evening and at weekends. We, just the same as the youth of today only had youth club to go to 3 times a week and we were lucky to have that.

The area I live in has very few places for youths to go, and is one of the largest and (so they say) deprived areas of London. It also has one of the largest multi-cultural populations.
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Post by persephone »

Someone older might correct me, but youths being armed is a relatively new thing in the UK.

I'm not so sure ours are respectful either, I can pass for early 20's so am often not seen as being much older than they are anyway.

You often don't see them stand and offer their seat to an elderly person on the bus though. Mind you same can be said for adults on that as well.
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Post by Suresh Gupta »

KlatunIckto wrote: Had'nt noticed,you mean there is a moral decline??? :lips:


Do you wear specs?
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Post by Suresh Gupta »

Jack Sprat wrote: After 32 years of teaching, I can claim to know kids fairly well. Even now, four years after retirement, I see little change.

Going back to when I was a kid, many decades ago, when kids are by themselves they are generally decent members of our society. It's when they are together in groups that pack behavior takes over. But the same can be said for adults in a mob and even (mainly) men in a social-bar situation.


You are right that when kids are by themselves they are generally decent members of the society. But what is it they learn which changes their behaviour to make them not-so-decent members of the society? Are not adults, by their behaviour, responsible for it?

Morality is constantly changing. We are not facing a "decline" we are simply facing a time when morality is not what it was when we were younger. Our parents thought the 60s and 70s were periods of moralistic decline. Overt sexuality is nowhere as evident today as it was in European and American societies in the 1840-1870 period nor in the 1920s. Lawless behavior among youth has actually declined since the 1980s.


Terming 'moral decline' as 'constant change in morality' seems to be an easy way out. There are some moral values which do not and should not change with time. When such moral values change it is nothing but decline. You yourself accept that lawless behaviour among youth has actually declined since the 1980s. Is this lawless behaviour not a combination of some moral values?
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As my daughter is getting close to teenage years and puberty, I started reading a book called "Saving Ophelia" that helps parents cope with youth as they encounter the new world. It is a new world for every generation. When a girl says now "I am being harassed sexually by boys at school" it is more likely to mean she is being sexually assaulted. We shrug off things our children tell us thinking we went through it and we know what it means but...do we? Why do children have guns in school? You can't blame the children for the availability of guns. How does a child learn to degrade and assault people? It is a learned behaviour. Our children say more about the generation that raised them than anything else. But then, I did not raise my daughter immorally. Yet she is faced with a world much different than my own so she will have to respond to it in ways I never had to imagine. Yes, the adults are responsible because we create the reality a child must learn to live in. Are just the parents responsible? No. Adults with or without children form the society that these children are trying to enter.

If you are a perfect parent and raise a saintly child...what world are you going to send them to to keep them safe? An innocent in this world is most likely to end up a victim. It hurts me to watch my child grow up in this society and I put all my energy into keeping her pure without making her an easy target. I don't know if it will work.

Children are born innocent. I do my best but I am not the only person in her life. If I shelter her she will hate me when she finds out what the world is really like. If I tell her the world is cruel she will leave in fear and anger. They learn from us. They read the newspapers. All around them is hate. What are we supposed to do?
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Post by Suresh Gupta »

koan wrote: .........If you are a perfect parent and raise a saintly child...what world are you going to send them to keep them safe? An innocent in this world is most likely to end up a victim. It hurts me to watch my child grow up in this society and I put all my energy into keeping her pure without making her an easy target. I don't know if it will work.

Children are born innocent. I do my best but I am not the only person in her life. If I shelter her she will hate me when she finds out what the world is really like. If I tell her the world is cruel she will leave in fear and anger. They learn from us. They read the newspapers. All around them is hate. What are we supposed to do?


You have done a good analysis. It shows the concern of a sincere parent.

Who is a saintly child and how do you raise such child?

In the early years of a child, mother is the only person in his/her life. Slowly as the child grows up other perple start entering his/her life. Behaviour of all these people affect the child. Parents have to be very careful as you can not isolate your child.

The most important element is the environment created in the home which includes behaviour of all family members. Child is always watching them, their behaviour as an individual and with others. This elementary education is the most important factor in child's life. This is also the phase in child's lefe which is most neglected by parents and other family members. They indulge in all sorts of things thinking that child can not understand anything.
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Suresh Gupta

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A Karenina
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The moral decline.

Post by A Karenina »

koan wrote: As my daughter is getting close to teenage years and puberty, I started reading a book called "Saving Ophelia" that helps parents cope with youth as they encounter the new world. It is a new world for every generation. When a girl says now "I am being harassed sexually by boys at school" it is more likely to mean she is being sexually assaulted. We shrug off things our children tell us thinking we went through it and we know what it means but...do we? Why do children have guns in school? You can't blame the children for the availability of guns. How does a child learn to degrade and assault people? It is a learned behaviour. Our children say more about the generation that raised them than anything else. But then, I did not raise my daughter immorally. Yet she is faced with a world much different than my own so she will have to respond to it in ways I never had to imagine. Yes, the adults are responsible because we create the reality a child must learn to live in. Are just the parents responsible? No. Adults with or without children form the society that these children are trying to enter.



If you are a perfect parent and raise a saintly child...what world are you going to send them to to keep them safe? An innocent in this world is most likely to end up a victim. It hurts me to watch my child grow up in this society and I put all my energy into keeping her pure without making her an easy target. I don't know if it will work.



Children are born innocent. I do my best but I am not the only person in her life. If I shelter her she will hate me when she finds out what the world is really like. If I tell her the world is cruel she will leave in fear and anger. They learn from us. They read the newspapers. All around them is hate. What are we supposed to do?
Reviving Ophelia? Mary Pipher? I read that book, too, and found it to be good, although somewhat alarmist. At the core of the book lies one very wise warning - pay attention to what our kids are saying, and do not underestimate what they are feeling/thinking.



As a parent, I feel for your obvious pain and confusion as your daughter learns to cope with things all around her. My "advice" or my point of view may come across as cold; in reality it's anything but.



We look at our children, we see how beautiful they are, and we know they deserve a better world than the one we've brought them into. We try to protect them from realities, and to keep them sheltered as long as possible. We make excuses for them and we blame specific segments of society for the hatred and the violence. That is our emotional reaction as a parent.



Now, let's get over it.



We are just as beautiful as our children, at least in our parents' eyes if not our own. We also deserve a better world than what we currently have. And we know the only solution is to have self-respect, respect for others, work to put our values into action, and to keep having faith in something greater than ourselves.



Our kids are made of the same stuff we are. In time, they will also know what we know, and they will build lives for themselves based on their own dreams and values. They are completely capable of it, and in fact it's what they were born to do. Let them at it.



The worst part of being a parent is to see your child's pain and to believe you can do nothing about it. What we often miss is that we have already done something about it, and we will keep doing something about it. We love them. We listen to them. We teach them the skills they need. We show them affection, and more than anything else, we reflect their worth through our love.



We humans like to think that we are somehow different than those before us. In our self-centeredness, we assume that no one has really faced these issues before us. Bull.



Violence has been around since the dawn of mankind. Guns have been around and children have had access to them for centuries. Boys have had hormonal impulses and some girls have paid for those impulses since recorded history. Peer pressure and cruelty has been written about in a hundred different languages over time. Ain't nothin' new, baby. (add a gentle smile with that).



And this is nothing but hopeful....because it shows that the human spirit does find a way to thrive in spite of ugliness. We here at FG have thrived, and will continue to. So will our children. We need to believe in them, and prove to them that they are worth believing in. We need to admit the ugliness but always remember to show the beauty as well ~ and there is plenty of beauty. :)



Suresh is right when he talks about the importance of a loving, stable environment. You've already provided that, and will continue to do so. Now it gets much rougher. You must also set boundaries for your daughter and watch as she crosses them. You must explain quickly and easily what the problem is, and then watch her struggle with the pain of consequences. If you protect her form this, if you follow what screams deep inside of every parent, then you deny her the ability to grow as a person.



Life hurts. Life is also incredibly wonderful. Deny her one, and you deny her the other. I can tell you from watching my own son struggle through the illness and death of his father that the results are glorious! He has faith in himself now. He knows that he can survive hardship and be ok. He knows the cycle of grief now. He has a newfound confidence, and is more brave about facing the world, exploring life. I wouldn't deny him that for anything.



These ideas can be harsh on the surface. I apologize if I've offended anyone. But this has been my experience as a daughter and as a mother.
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.

Aristotle
LottomagicZ4941
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The moral decline.

Post by LottomagicZ4941 »

There is nothing new under the son er sun.

I think the moral decline is exagurated.

Now with body piercing we may just be devoling.

Just common since it is a infection risk.

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The moral decline.

Post by LottomagicZ4941 »

Then again there are less and less people who respect the Bible as God's word.

With out the Bible as a guide I would think the guy who had the sex with the dog was okay.

When we lose our compas we have nothing to give us our direction.

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vampress.rozz
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The moral decline.

Post by vampress.rozz »

This thread makes for interesting reading. Ive worked with loads of kids...each one an individual. I find in all cases if you take time to talk to them as equals and listen to them they value it.

As parents we try our best. Those children that spend time being dumped in pre-school and after school clubs for hours on end have it hard....sometimes parents find it necessary I suppose.

No matter what upbringing you give them children will find their own way. Before I had my first son I would always say my mum isnt an alcoholic but she has a drinking problem (when My son was born it was like a new beginning for her) from it I took the idea that alcahol is bad steer clear my brother on the other hand seemed to take...it helps to ease problems and so drank regularly. One day it made me laugh when talking about her father she uttered the words"he wasn't an alcoholic but he did have a drinking problem." she had never heard me say that about her.

I believe in a universal spirit that If we listen to guides us about what is right and wrong... some prefer to think in the term god but I dont believe in something you can go up to and poke...I dont need a book to tell me what is right and wrong.

If my youngest does something wrong he is really upset if he thinks it has upset me. That's the power of a loving relationship.

If my oldest does something wrong he gets angry at me for telling him it was a wrong thing to do. We have the same loving relationship and yet I get two completely different reactions to the same style of discipline.

I love both my sons for being individuals.

Our government has provided children with arguments against parents..."I'll phone the social" syndrome and that makes life difficult sometimes (Ive yet to face that with my two)

Every generation has to suffer being told "It wasnt like that in my day"

News travels fast these days and bad news travels even faster....so my dad always says....we hear about the bad side all the time yet the number of child carers has increased dramatically over the years:)

phew there's my essay finished lol
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Suresh Gupta
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The moral decline.

Post by Suresh Gupta »

I can say something about moral decline in Indian society. For a large section of Indian society, money is being considered more important than moral values. A person with more money but having little or no moral values gets better recognition and importance in the society in comparison to a person committed to moral values but has less money. More and more people therefore try to earn more and more money. The means to earn money are not considered important. The aim is to earn more money by whatever means. Money creates greed and more money creates more greed. More greed creates hate and hate creates violance.

All this goes contrary to basic Indian thought that means are more important than the result. In other words if means are improper the result will never be good. This contradiction in Indian society is the result of lack of moral education at home by elders. Indian families are breaking up in smaller units where parents hardly have any time to teach moral values to their children. Children learn by examples of their parents who are only indulging in immoral means to earn more and more money.
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Suresh Gupta

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cars
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The moral decline.

Post by cars »

Suresh Gupta wrote: I can say something about moral decline in Indian society. For a large section of Indian society, money is being considered more important than moral values. A person with more money but having little or no moral values gets better recognition and importance in the society in comparison to a person committed to moral values but has less money. More and more people therefore try to earn more and more money. The means to earn money are not considered important. The aim is to earn more money by whatever means. Money creates greed and more money creates more greed. More greed creates hate and hate creates violance.

All this goes contrary to basic Indian thought that means are more important than the result. In other words if means are improper the result will never be good. This contradiction in Indian society is the result of lack of moral education at home by elders. Indian families are breaking up in smaller units where parents hardly have any time to teach moral values to their children. Children learn by examples of their parents who are only indulging in immoral means to earn more and more money.
Well hello Suresh, it's been quite some time since I've seen your last posting. It's wonderful to see you back in the Garden again! You were one of the first people to give me a kind, warm welcome to the Garden. Your insight & guidance helped me get through a tough time I was going through when I first joined the Garden. I will always remember your kindness, thankyou! :)
Cars :)
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vampress.rozz
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Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 4:38 am

The moral decline.

Post by vampress.rozz »

Suresh Gupta wrote: I can say something about moral decline in Indian society. For a large section of Indian society, money is being considered more important than moral values. A person with more money but having little or no moral values gets better recognition and importance in the society in comparison to a person committed to moral values but has less money. More and more people therefore try to earn more and more money. The means to earn money are not considered important. The aim is to earn more money by whatever means. Money creates greed and more money creates more greed. More greed creates hate and hate creates violance.

All this goes contrary to basic Indian thought that means are more important than the result. In other words if means are improper the result will never be good. This contradiction in Indian society is the result of lack of moral education at home by elders. Indian families are breaking up in smaller units where parents hardly have any time to teach moral values to their children. Children learn by examples of their parents who are only indulging in immoral means to earn more and more money.
That could be why I have great kids...I dont earn a lot of money although I like to think they would be great anyway :-2
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