Lebanese civilians seek hope in Tyre

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:14 am

My heart goes out to these innocent people caught up in the conflict and afraid for their lives. Israel's campaign appears to be indiscriminate.

http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/wo ... ?th&emc=th

This is an audio/video article showing the plight of the Lebanese civilians.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:34 am

Strange how, so far, everyone has been more concerned with laying blame and not an ounce of compassion has been shown for the civilians, particularly children, who are not responsible for Hizbollah.

The same applies to those civilians killed in Israel, but this report focusses on Lebanon because of the huge number of frightened people there.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:34 pm

OpenMind wrote: Strange how, so far, everyone has been more concerned with laying blame and not an ounce of compassion has been shown for the civilians, particularly children, who are not responsible for Hizbollah.

The same applies to those civilians killed in Israel, but this report focusses on Lebanon because of the huge number of frightened people there.

Its all such a mess OM.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:42 pm

Nomad wrote: Its all such a mess OM.

Yah. Maybe it's about time we went out and shot all the leaders and politicians and all those that aspire to be such.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:00 pm

Apparently, according to the BBC news tonight, when asked by a reporter concerning the killing of Lebanese civilians, an Israeli soldier simply replied that they had a job to do.

A third of the civilian casualties are children.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:43 pm

How many Israeli civilians have died?

golem · Post by **golem** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:37 am

OpenMind wrote: Strange how, so far, everyone has been more concerned with laying blame and not an ounce of compassion has been shown for the civilians, particularly children, who are not responsible for Hizbollah.

The same applies to those civilians killed in Israel, but this report focusses on Lebanon because of the huge number of frightened people there.

The kids may not be responsible for hez-b'allah but hez-b'allah is responsible for the deaths of the kids.

As for hez-b'allah, I prefer to use the literal translation for the arabic "party

of allah". Lets' not ignore the islamic drive behind this.

Post by **spot** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:50 am

Most would want to retain control of their reactions, to say to themselves "I have a choice, to react or not to react" and to decide and then to do as they have chosen. That selectivity was long ago abandoned within Israeli political circles. The consequence is that any two-bit organization can trip a totally predictable and guaranteed response at practically no cost to itself, having laid as many traps and fallbacks as it can think up along the way. Any two-bit organization can select the timing and appear to be responding to the assault on Gaza. The two-bit external tail has wagged the Israeli dog once more. Lebanon is being raped yet again in full view of the cameras, and not a single Israeli politician has actually chosen to do this thing. Israeli foreign policy is being written by an insignificant and otherwise powerless pressure group in Damascus.

Bez · Post by **Bez** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:57 am

Why does the human race behave like this....I know little of the politics but surely the cost in lives, resources and to economies is devastating......people will be crying out for aid that will be freely given, but when will the people giving the orders and pushing the buttons be taken to account.

golem · Post by **golem** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:00 am

spot wrote: Most would want to retain control of their reactions, to say to themselves "I have a choice, to react or not to react" and to decide and then to do as they have chosen. That selectivity was long ago abandoned within Israeli political circles. The consequence is that any two-bit organization can trip a totally predictable and guaranteed response at practically no cost to itself, having laid as many traps and fallbacks as it can think up along the way. Any two-bit organization can select the timing and appear to be responding to the assault on Gaza. The two-bit external tail has wagged the Israeli dog once more. Lebanon is being raped yet again in full view of the cameras, and not a single Israeli politician has actually chosen to do this thing. Israeli foreign policy is being written by an insignificant and otherwise powerless pressure group in Damascus.

Utter and totral rubbish.

There is greater than 80% approval amongst the Israeli citizens for this campaign.

Read in one of your own newspapers.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/ ... 98,00.html

Post by **spot** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:06 am

golem wrote: Utter and totral rubbish.Most would want to retain control of their reactions, to say to themselves "I have a choice, to react or not to react" and to decide and then to do as they have chosen.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 4:36 am

spot wrote: Most would want to retain control of their reactions, to say to themselves "I have a choice, to react or not to react" and to decide and then to do as they have chosen.
Are you implying that the article golem cites is wrong? It seems that most have done as you've said.

golem's link wrote:

Israel's military operations against Hizbullah have broad support from across the country's political spectrum with 86% of the population backing the action, according to a poll in yesterday's Yedioth Ahronoth newspaper.

Asked what Israel's next move should be, 58% said they thought the military should keep fighting until "Hizbullah is wiped out". In the north of Israel, where several hundred Hizbullah rockets have landed in the past week, the percentage of those who support military action was significantly higher.

Post by **spot** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:25 am

Accountable wrote: Are you implying that the article golem cites is wrong? It seems that most have done as you've said.The line you quoted was me telling golem that his knee-jerk was a perfect example of his own inability to decide when, where and why to react. I could have put money on the nature of his response.

As for the reported poll:

It's taken after the reaction, not before, so it's backing of an existing move and not a recommendation to do it"That selectivity was long ago abandoned within Israeli political circles" - I described the nature of this particular representative democracy, not the baying of a mob. Israeli political circles have abandoned their capacity to react with discrimination.The idea that, when a government launches an offensive campaign abroad, the proportion of its people who back their leadership soars is not new. Most governments have been able to make that decision themselves. This one has invariably struck out with a massively disproportionate response. It is incapable of determining its own policy any longer, it has handed those reins over to the provocators. It can only be said to determine its own policy if it can be seen to have selected from a range of alternative responses in a succession of events instead of following a predictable formula. Does the current Israeli government follow a predictable formula? I'd say it does. Perhaps anyone disagreeing would point to instances within the recent succession of events where they haven't "struck out with a massively disproportionate response".

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:38 am

I have a question. Just what is it going to take to rein in the Islamics, muslims etc. I mean what the hell is the world supposed to do with these people?

Post by **spot** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:49 am

YZGI wrote: I have a question. Just what is it going to take to rein in the Islamics, muslims etc. I mean what the hell is the world supposed to do with these people?Treat them as a neighbouring family with whom you have a disagreement, of course. They're people. Treat them as people. Assuming your family is worth more to you than theirs is to them is the traditional basis of feuding, I thought. People have ended feuds before.

Assuming you can know your neighbouring family's aspirations and ambitions better than they do isn't helpful.

Assuming that an entire neighbouring family shares an identical view isn't helpful.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:56 am

YZGI wrote: I have a question. Just what is it going to take to rein in the Islamics, muslims etc. I mean what the hell is the world supposed to do with these people?

The problem isn't the Islamists and Moslems but the extremists within their populace, e.g. Hammas and Hezbollah.

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:56 am

But what if they want to KILL you spot?

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:59 am

I understand it's the extremists, Just seems like there are a hell of alot of them lately.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 9:02 am

YZGI wrote: I understand it's the extremists, Just seems like there are a hell of alot of them lately.

I am surrounded by Islams and Muslims and as a general rule, I am safe from them. Again, it's a minority of extremists that give these otherwise good-willed people a bad name.

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 9:14 am

I see your point. The problem is, there really arent many muslims where I live and the media only rant about the extremists so we only here about them.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 9:21 am

YZGI wrote: I see your point. The problem is, there really arent many muslims where I live and the media only rant about the extremists so we only here about them.

That's understandable, YZGI. The media can be very choosy about the truths they cover to sell their rags.

I have to bear in mind also that the Islams and Muslims that I live amongst probably have a slightly different mindset to their distant cousins overseas. But Onsekiz's thread is illuminating regarding the Lebanese. You'll find it here:

http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/showt ... hp?t=17580

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 9:32 am

Thanks I'll check it out.

cherandbuster · Post by **cherandbuster** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 9:48 am

BR,

Isn't it true that Detroit has the largest Muslim population in the United States?

golem · Post by **golem** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 12:19 am

YZGI wrote: I have a question. Just what is it going to take to rein in the Islamics, muslims etc. I mean what the hell is the world supposed to do with these people?Letâ€™s just do a reality check.

Islam is utterly incompatible with Western democracy.

Really.

In islam there are a set of laws that have been â€œdisclosedâ€ to mohammed from their â€œgodâ€ that set out what man may and may not do. It would be an act of heresy to even suggest that any of these laws should change, and heresy in islam results in death.

Oh there can be democratically elected officials but their job is simply to see to the day by day matters and NOT to make or repeal laws that govern society.

In fact, the most devout believers will not even vote in an election where a man is to be empowered in a parliament that can introduce laws that might run counter to the law of islam. To do so would be an act that contradicted islamic law. Note â€“ this is not about the penalties in shaâ€™ia law, this is about the laws themselves.

Then there is the relationship with islam by secular society. There can only ever be one that satisfies islam and that is in the final analysis when everyone has been converted TO islam. There are transitory stages that are acceptable, there is for example the state where mohammedans are let to live their lives in peace (while they gather strength).

Then there is the case where islam takes control and provided that the non-mohammedans pay the â€œzukethâ€, the religious tax, they are permitted to live in the midst though with restrictions on what they may do as was the case in countries like Spain when the statement that the mohammedans were happy to live cheek by jowl with non-mohammedans stops short of te conditions that applied.

There is the state of â€œtreatyâ€, a very tenuous state that the mohammedans can break at any time that suits them (as is permitted from hadithic example) in which provided a population has agreed not to impede them they leave it largely alone. For a while.

What is to be done? For one thing, learn what islam is all about. Not the â€œreligion of peaceâ€ rubbish, it isnâ€™t. Well, actually that is not true. It IS a religion of peace for the mohammedans within their won society as if anyone breaks a law they are likely to have a part of them chopped off or they are likely to be put to death.

The peace is the peace of a graveyard, a place of stasis, unchanged and more to the point unchangeable since the time of mohammed as there is no way that anything in islam CANN change. The koran sees to that.

Then learn about the intent of islam to conquer the world. No, really. Forget this live in peace as neighbors rubbish. Live in peace if possible, but do not for a moment in time expect that it can be a permanent situation as your neighbour has a holy duty to convert you to islam.

And if not him convert you, then his kids to convert your kids.

Or his grand kids to convert YOUR grand kids.

And unless stopped, happen it will

Islam has no place in the modern world. Followers know this and realise that one or the other must eventually dominate.

What to do?

LEAR the truth about what is not a religion, but a complete archaic regressive and repressive philosophy containing a warped version of the religion of the 7th. Century along with horrific morality of a savage people living in a savage time and that is actually a vicious dominating cult.

And then make others aware.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 12:44 am

Golem wrote: Then learn about the intent of islam to conquer the world. No, really. Forget this live in peace as neighbors rubbish. Live in peace if possible, but do not for a moment in time expect that it can be a permanent situation as your neighbour has a holy duty to convert you to islam.

And if not him convert you, then his kids to convert your kids.

Or his grand kids to convert YOUR grand kids.

And unless stopped, happen it will

In all my years, I have not experienced this, neither have my friends nor their children nor their grandchildren. They abide by their religious code and do not interfere with the rest of us. There are only those few young impressionable youths who have been fuelled to extremes by the Islamic terrorist groups abroad from our country.

golem · Post by **golem** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 1:15 am

OpenMind wrote: In all my years, I have not experienced this, neither have my friends nor their children nor their grandchildren. They abide by their religious code and do not interfere with the rest of us. There are only those few young impressionable youths who have been fuelled to extremes by the Islamic terrorist groups abroad from our country.

You should get out more.

golem · Post by **golem** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 1:20 am

Diuretic wrote: This validates my position that religion and politics should be kept separate.

golem you are describing a theocracy and a theocracy is antithetical to a democracy, regardless of which religion is driving the theocracy.

I totally agree and it is the recognition OF that which has caused the government of my country to EVOLVE to a predominatly secular government and set of MK's.

Although Israel IS the Jewish state the reality is that the vast majority of us see our Judaism as a national identity more than anything else by far.

Plus there's the traditions that remind us of our history of course, and the Yiddish food's not bad either!

(Can't say the same for the strict kosher though. We often seem to throw the best cuts of meat away!)

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 3:15 am

golem wrote: You should get out more.

Get a life outside of Israel yourself, mate. You are just plain insolent. Do you expect my sympathies? You argue more like an extremist yourself. From here on, I shall not bother replying to you.

Post by **spot** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 3:52 am

OpenMind wrote: You argue more like an extremist yourself. From here on, I shall not bother replying to you.You've finally met our resident provocateur then, have you? Don't, whatever you do, believe (as he'd like you to believe) that he's a typical Israeli. I've met lots and they don't froth like this, they don't foment like this. golem has an agenda and I have thought for some time now that it's a purely anti-Israeli one aimed at generating ill-will.

Issie · Post by **Issie** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 4:02 am

spot wrote: You've finally met our resident provocateur then, have you? Don't, whatever you do, believe (as he'd like you to believe) that he's a typical Israeli. I've met lots and they don't froth like this, they don't foment like this. golem has an agenda and I have thought for some time now that it's a purely anti-Israeli one aimed at generating ill-will.
Wish you had told me :wah: and yes I agree with you.

You have a very closed mind if you meet one "bad" Israeli, Arab, American,British citizen etc and believe one person represents a nation.

In islam there are a set of laws that have been â€œdisclosedâ€ to mohammed from their â€œgodâ€

Golem, their God.?

There is only ONE GOD...end of!!!!!...doesn`t Judaism teach you that.?

Get a life outside of Israel yourself, mate. You are just plain insolent. Do you expect my sympathies? You argue more like an extremist yourself. From here on, I shall not bother replying to you.

My thoughts exactly....one Muslim full of love for mankind is worth ten times more than a Jew full of hate....

Post by **spot** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 4:20 am

Issie wrote: one Muslim full of love for mankind is worth ten times more than a Jew full of hate....And, of course, vice versa, the reverse would be equally true.

Issie · Post by **Issie** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 4:24 am

spot wrote: And, of course, vice versa, the reverse would be equally true.
Yes, of course, I apologise for not finishing off with visa versa....but my thoughts were focussed on Golem.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 12:12 pm

spot wrote: You've finally met our resident provocateur then, have you? Don't, whatever you do, believe (as he'd like you to believe) that he's a typical Israeli. I've met lots and they don't froth like this, they don't foment like this. golem has an agenda and I have thought for some time now that it's a purely anti-Israeli one aimed at generating ill-will.

I should have known better, Spot. Since he declares himself as a curmudgeon in his profile. The definition I have for this is churl or miser. Churl is defined as ill-bred or cross-grained or niggardly fellow.

There you go. He is true to his word. And I shall say nothing more about this 'fellow'.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 4:54 am

http://www.townhall.com/funnies/2006/07/23

cherandbuster · Post by **cherandbuster** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 5:16 am

So much truth in 'cartoons'.

Loved them! Thanks for posting :-6

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 5:45 am

Darn, ACC. I've got work to do and you just know how I love cartoons, dontcha.:wah:

woppy71 · Post by **woppy71** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:47 am

Bez wrote: Why does the human race behave like this....I know little of the politics but surely the cost in lives, resources and to economies is devastating......people will be crying out for aid that will be freely given, but when will the people giving the orders and pushing the buttons be taken to account.

Sadly Bez, as I have said in another post, the human race seems to have a predisposition to self destruct. Very sad indeed.

:(

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:54 am

Diuretic wrote: We are the worst of aggressive animals, we are very aggressive animals with superior brains and we own the planet.

We think we own it. We could have superior brains, but we only use a fifth of them. Dumb.

cherandbuster · Post by **cherandbuster** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:56 am

OpenMind wrote: We think we own it. We could have superior brains, but we only use a fifth of them. Dumb.

Is that true, Ommmm?

20% only?

A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

Post by **spot** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:59 am

In what sense do we have an unused 80% of a brain? In what way is that 80% performing no function? By what means could we make our brains superior by using the unused four fifths?

Post by **spot** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:02 am

onsekiz wrote: It's only 1300 grams o meat.It may be only 1300 grams of meat to you, but it's a square meal for six hungry adults where I come from if you deep fry it in thin dredged strips and put a mushroom and wine sauce round it.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:03 am

spot wrote: In what sense do we have an unused 80% of a brain? In what way is that 80% performing no function? By what means could we make our brains superior by using the unused four fifths?

This has been common knowledge for as long as I remember. I wish I could research it, but I don't have the time at the moment. Perhaps another time when I'm not so pressed for time.