500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:09 am

Here, I have posted 2 articles together.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... w_20072006

500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage

By Tim Butcher in Beirut

(Filed: 20/07/2006)

More than 60 people, most of them Lebanese civilians, were killed yesterday on the bloodiest day of the Middle East conflict so far.

As the violence continued the United Nations raised the possibility that civilian deaths could lead to war crimes charges. Lebanon said 300 people had been killed in eight days of Israeli air strikes and artillery barrages.

Louise Arbour, the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, said commanders were legally obliged to protect non-combatants. She did not refer explicitly to Hizbollah, which continues to fire rockets indiscriminately across the Lebanese border, or Israel.

The first signs of a full-blown humanitarian disaster emerged with an estimated 500,000 Lebanese driven from their homes. Many civilians have been killed as they tried to flee the fighting, with Israel announcing that it regarded vehicles as legitimate targets.

The first 180 British citizens to be evacuated by the Royal Navy arrived in Cyprus yesterday on the destroyer Gloucester. A second destroyer, the York, later docked in Limassol with up to 300 British nationals on board. Thousands more Britons were waiting in Beirut to be evacuated.

Â© Copyright of Telegraph Group Limited 2006.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... w_20072006

Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground

By Tim Butcher and Ramsay Short in Beirut and Harry de Quetteville in Jerusalem

(Filed: 20/07/2006)

Two Israeli soldiers and one Hizbollah fighter died in fierce fighting that broke out yesterday when Israeli troops entered a few hundred yards into Lebanon to destroy a bunker system used by the Shia militant movement. It was the first clash on the ground since Israel launched its assault on Lebanon.

Nine Israeli soldiers and an unknown number of Hizbollah gunmen were wounded in the firefight. The relatively heavy losses will diminish any Israeli willingness for a ground invasion of southern Lebanon and indicate that the current operation is likely to remain restricted to air attacks and artillery barrages.

Meanwhile, Hizbollah continued to fire rockets across the border into Israel, killing two Arab brothers aged three and eight playing outside their home in a village near Nazareth.

The ground battle took place after a unit of Israeli special forces entered Lebanon to blow up a border base used by Hizbollah in an old Israeli outpost known as Shaked.

Israeli sappers believed that they knew the lay-out of the base, which dated back to the Jewish occupation of Lebanon, but were surprised by gunmen who had hidden in a number of tunnels dug in the area.

Israeli soldiers were preparing to blow up a large Hizbollah arms cache in the main bunker when they were attacked and suffered heavy casualties. They called in support fire from nearby Israeli positions and at least one Hizbollah fighter was killed.

One more was seen running away through the trees. Israeli tanks and armoured vehicles were called forward but detonated a mine concealed under the track, although they suffered no casualties.

The intensity of the firefight and the element of surprise achieved by Hizbollah will add further to the concerns of Israeli commanders about ordering a large-scale ground invasion of southern Lebanon.

Since the current crisis began Israel has sought to reduce Hizbollah's fighting capability with artillery barrages and air attacks, even though a sweep by ground troops is needed to clear an area thoroughly of enemy forces.

Having suffered more than 1,000 fatalities during its occupation of Lebanon, mostly inflicted by Hizbollah, Israeli commanders know that any such sweep across the border would be costly.

The rocket attack on Nazareth was the first time one of the region's holy cities has been struck in the eight days of the conflict. Police said the two children were playing outside their home when they were killed by one of four missiles that reportedly hit the 65,000-strong town in the late afternoon.

Earlier in the week a missile fell just to the east of Nazareth, which is largely populated by Israelis of Arab descent.

The attack brings Israeli deaths up to 29 - 15 civilians and 14 members of the armed forces - since fighting began. Hundreds more have been wounded and many towns in the north have been virtually closed down by the near incessant Hizbollah barrage.

That missile barrage forced the Israelis to remove petro-chemicals from storage tanks in the northern port city of Haifa. Major-General Yitzhak Gershon, Israel's home front commander, said 90 per cent of the hazardous substances had been removed and the remainder were being diluted.

Israel's air attacks on Beirut continued yesterday when helicopters fired three rockets into two trucks in the Christian residential neighbourhood of Achrafieh, far from Hizbollah targets.

Although no one was hurt, it was the first direct strike in the heart of the capital.

Security sources said the attack was probably an error because the trucks located were the kind used for building wells and could look like missile launchers on radar screens.

Fighting also continued on Israel's second front as troops killed 12 Palestinians in clashes in the Gaza Strip and occupied West Bank, including four gunmen and two civilians, as tanks pushed into a central Gaza refugee camp.

Three more Palestinians were killed later in the day and more than 60, including 10 children, were wounded, according to medics.

Such is the intensity of the fighting that Israeli troops who have been jailed for minor offences have been released early so they can rejoin their units.

Â© Copyright of Telegraph Group Limited 2006.

chonsigirl · Post by **chonsigirl** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:28 am

This is so sad.

The 6 am news showed the first planeloads of Americans returning, they are debarking at BWI, my local airport. I am sure by noon they will have their comments on the news, about the war.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:29 am

chonsigirl wrote: This is so sad.

The 6 am news showed the first planeloads of Americans returning, they are debarking at BWI, my local airport. I am sure by noon they will have their comments on the news, about the war.

I have posted another thread showing the plight of the Lebanese civilians. This is so wrong and heartbreaking.

golem · Post by **golem** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:02 am

Blame hezballah. they brought this thing on The Lebanon.

Bronwen · Post by **Bronwen** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:02 am

OpenMind wrote: I have posted another thread showing the plight of the Lebanese civilians. This is so wrong and heartbreaking.So wrong, so heartbreaking, and so self-imposed.

All they have to do is return the kidnapped soldiers unharmed and stop shelling Israel.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:22 am

The Lebanese civilians cannot do anything but pray. Should a nation be targetted for the sake of the minority?

Bez · Post by **Bez** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:24 am

golem wrote: Blame hezballah. they brought this thing on The Lebanon.

Blame everyone that believes lives are cheap

Blame everyone that has hatred in their hearts

Blame everyone that justifies war because of their greed, religious or political beliefs

golem · Post by **golem** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Bez wrote:
Blame everyone that believes lives are cheap

Blame everyone that has hatred in their hearts

Blame everyone that justifies war because of their greed, religious or political beliefs

OK, blame hezballah AND hammas then.

golem · Post by **golem** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:29 am

OpenMind wrote: The Lebanese civilians cannot do anything but pray. Should a nation be targetted for the sake of the minority?

The nation is not being targeted. The analogy is an operation to remove a cancer. The body inevitably receives some incidental injury in the process.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:09 am

blame hesbollah.

blaming anyone else is saying that the victim 'asked for it' or deserved it.

hesbollah launched an unprovoked attack on israel. they knew what they were doing. they *want* a war. it gives them an opportunity to kill israelis. the islamofascists see the only good jew as a dead jew. this is not exactly a 'breaking news' bulletin.

stop blaming the victim.

golem · Post by **golem** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:39 am

--- and in the meantime Iran continues to make it's atomic bomb while the worlds attentuion is focused elsewhere.

Coincidence?

Hardly.

Bronwen · Post by **Bronwen** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:14 am

I hope everyone perusing this thread, and especially those who have posted, will take the time to read this. It's not very long:

http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedc ... lerman.htm

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:04 am

golem wrote: --- and in the meantime Iran continues to make it's atomic bomb while the worlds attentuion is focused elsewhere.

Coincidence?

Hardly.

None of this has gone unnoticed and a report has become available that I will be posting soon - in a new thread.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:09 am

Bronwen wrote: I hope everyone perusing this thread, and especially those who have posted, will take the time to read this. It's not very long:

http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedc ... lerman.htm

I have no doubt that Israel wants to justify what has become, by appearances, indiscriminate killing of Lebanese civilians.

And those civilians whose homes have been used for missile launches - was this of their free will, or were they co-erced? Hezbollah are known to be an evil group who, I am sure, would place an automatic rifle in the hands of babies or use them for a shield if it suited their purpose.

Issie · Post by **Issie** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:15 am

golem wrote: OK, blame hezballah AND hammas then.

Yeh, let`s blame everyone but Israel.

Israel that has stolen land that is not theirs.

Israel that refuses to go back to the 1967 borders.

Israel that ignores the UN resolutions

Israel that is backed by the USA

Israel that without the USA would be nothing.

This time Israel has met someone who is prepared to stand up against its bully tactics.

This time the USA are quite prepared to sit back and let Israel do the fighting, it saves them having to do it.

Israel that wanted peace so much, that when it looked a possibility,Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated by an Israeli extremist..

Remember, it takes two countries to start a war.

Israel is good at bleating out and playing the victim.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:14 am

Things could turn around - I mean spinning pivot - if the Lebanese gov't would take responsibility for their citizenry and act with Israel to take out hezboolah (or whatever).

golem · Post by **golem** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:39 am

Issie wrote: Yeh, let`s blame everyone but Israel.

Israel that has stolen land that is not theirs.

Israel that refuses to go back to the 1967 borders.

Israel that ignores the UN resolutions

Israel that is backed by the USA

Israel that without the USA would be nothing.

This time Israel has met someone who is prepared to stand up against its bully tactics.

This time the USA are quite prepared to sit back and let Israel do the fighting, it saves them having to do it.

Israel that wanted peace so much, that when it looked a possibility,Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated by an Israeli extremist..

Remember, it takes two countries to start a war.

Israel is good at bleating out and playing the victim.

What little you know. What even less you understand.

Here is the hammas charter.

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/hamas.htm .

That tells the world what we constantly have to face.

buttercup · Post by **buttercup** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:45 am

golem are you in israel or the uk at this moment?

Bez · Post by **Bez** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 7:07 am

golem wrote: What little you know. What even less you understand.

Here is the hammas charter.

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/hamas.htm .

That tells the world what we constantly have to face.

I have read this Golem and have a better understanding of the situation.... thank you

Issie · Post by **Issie** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 7:07 am

golem wrote: What little you know. What even less you understand.

Golem

I`ve read enough of your posts to expect the personal insults that you write.

Don`t patronise or be condescending to me.

The bigotted, brain washed idiology that has been instilled into your tunnel vision warped intelligence is a fine example of why the world is in the mess it is today, There really is no hope for mankind.

That tells the world what we constantly have to face.

That tells the world what you want to bleat and believe.

I see you avoided the contents in my previous post by giving me a link to Hamas, typical reply when the truth has been stated.

I`ve just watched the news here and the Childrens aid has just said that 45% of the people you have slaughtered in lebanon....were Children.

Is one childs life worth more than another.?

golem · Post by **golem** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 7:24 am

Issie wrote: Golem

I`ve read enough of your posts to expect the personal insults that you write.

Don`t patronise or be condescending to me.

The bigotted, brain washed idiology that has been instilled into your tunnel vision warped intelligence is a fine example of why the world is in the mess it is today, There really is no hope for mankind.

That tells the world what we constantly have to face.

That tells the world what you want to bleat and believe.

I see you avoided the contents in my previous post by giving me a link to Hamas, typical reply when the truth has been stated.

I`ve just watched the news here and the Childrens aid has just said that 45% of the people you have slaughtered in lebanon....were Children.

Is one childs life worth more than another.?

You should not forget that islam directs the telling of lies in order to obtain peace --- for islam.

IS one childs life worth more? Plainly the palests seem to think so, they are more than ready to turn their kids into walking bombs on order to kill ours.

Issie · Post by **Issie** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:10 am

golem wrote: You should not forget that islam directs the telling of lies in order to obtain peace --- for islam.

IS one childs life worth more? Plainly the palests seem to think so, they are more than ready to turn their kids into walking bombs on order to kill ours.

Again Golem, you portray your deep rooted bigotted view.

Did I mention Jews or Muslims/Islam.?

Are you so blind that you cannot see why the people in Palestine want to fight Israel.?

Are you so blind that you cannot see building settlements and treating the Palestinians worse than pigs on their land...... will be revenged.?

Are you so blind that only because the USA is arming and supplying Israel that you have been allowed to contraveen all the UN proposals.?

Have you ever lived in an occupied country where the people have no hope, in a David and USA backed Goliath situation.?

Turning anyone into a suicide bomber, must be the last resort and born out of desperation living in a hell hole.

There are faults on both sides, neither of you are right and neither of you have the right to kill in any Gods name....but if you went back to the 1967 borders, that would be a start in the right direction towards peace.

I just get tired of hearing the Jews bleat on and on and on.....it`s never their fault .

golem · Post by **golem** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 11:51 pm

Issie wrote: Again Golem, you portray your deep rooted bigotted view.

Did I mention Jews or Muslims/Islam.?

Are you so blind that you cannot see why the people in Palestine want to fight Israel.?

Are you so blind that you cannot see building settlements and treating the Palestinians worse than pigs on their land...... will be revenged.?

Are you so blind that only because the USA is arming and supplying Israel that you have been allowed to contraveen all the UN proposals.?

Have you ever lived in an occupied country where the people have no hope, in a David and USA backed Goliath situation.?

Turning anyone into a suicide bomber, must be the last resort and born out of desperation living in a hell hole.

There are faults on both sides, neither of you are right and neither of you have the right to kill in any Gods name....but if you went back to the 1967 borders, that would be a start in the right direction towards peace.

I just get tired of hearing the Jews bleat on and on and on.....it`s never their fault .

Ah der verdammt Juden again eh?

I really must spend more time reading the things that you people right, they make me feel so hopeful whereas what I see around me from the palests, their intent to evict Israel from what they see as "their land", a land that they (conveniently) see as a waaf, their turning their back on our repeated and very genuine attempts at securing peace, the hardship that so many of my family and neighbors live under, the fear of the next homicide bomb when some piece of filth send one of their kids in covered with plastique in order to kill our, Oh yes, what you write makes me feel that we are doing so much better than my eyes show me and my ears tell me.

The 1967 borders? Get real. The only borders that most palasts would accept would be the pre UN 181 borders, that is to say the sea.

And one particular point of correction. We do not kill on G-ds name. That is the practice engaged in by the palests. We only kill out of self defence.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 12:30 am

Issie wrote: Golem

I`ve just watched the news here and the Childrens aid has just said that 45% of the people you have slaughtered in lebanon....were Children.

Is one childs life worth more than another.?

their blood - and the blood of israeli civilians killed in hezbollahs unprovoked attack - is on the hands of the islamofascists, as well as the governments of lebanon and syria that tolerate and shelter hezbollah.

don't attack your neighbor if you aren't prepared to have them fight back.

i hope as few civilians die in this conflict as possible. the easiest way to prevent more deaths is for the civilians to assist israel in rooting out hezbollah. hey, the government of lebanon could help too, there's a thought. you know, rather than giving aid and comfort to those who brought this down upon them.

no, one child's life is not worth more than another. perhaps that's why israel has been dropping leaflets for days warning the civilian population to get out. wouldn't it have been nice if hezbollah had done the same thing before it decided to start lobbing missiles at israeli civilians, out of the clear blue sky?

Bronwen · Post by **Bronwen** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 1:33 am

OpenMind wrote: 1. I have no doubt that Israel wants to justify what has become, by appearances, indiscriminate killing of Lebanese civilians.

2. And those civilians whose homes have been used for missile launches - was this of their free will, or were they co-erced?

3. Hezbollah are known to be an evil group who, I am sure, would place an automatic rifle in the hands of babies or use them for a shield if it suited their purpose.1. I don't think it's all that indiscriminate. First of all, that would be illogical. Why bomb civilians 'indiscriminately' when you could be targeting terrorists, specifically and deliberately? And by the way, you are to be commended for not preceding the word 'civilians' with the word 'innocent' as some other posters here (and elsewhere) have done.

2. One of the things that makes Hezbollah terrorists rather than merely guerillas is that they not only target INNOCENT civilians but they hide behind/among their OWN civilians. Whether the latter are 'innocent' depends on the circumstances. Many willingly and eagerly assist the terrorists in any way possible. These 'civilians' are not 'innocent'. Others may be coerced as you say. That is unfortunate, but hardly Israel's fault. The UN gave the Lebanese government the mandate of removing the terrorists, which they have failed to do. They can't have it both ways. They can't whine, 'We're too weak and useless to put down Hezbollah' and then expect no retaliation when Israel is invaded and bombed from Lebanese territory.

There was a short news item on BBC Teletext last Sunday, saying that Israel had taken out an ammo dump in Gaza and two infants were reported as having been killed. That Israel took out the ammo dump I do not doubt. That two infants were living over it, well, if that was true, why? If you had two infant children, would you live over an ammo dump with them?

A few days ago CNN showed scenes in Beirut of posters of well-known terrorists being sold in shops, along with audio CD's extolling terrorism in songs and rants. In the same report, two young Beirut mothers, bundled up in their Islamic coverings as if it were the middle of winter in Winnipeg, both with young children in tow, bragged about how they were teaching their kids to hate Jews and that they would be proud to have them become terrorists or suicide bombers. Were these scumbags being 'coerced'?

Now, buying a poster or a CD may not make one a criminal or a terrorist, but neither am I likely to lose any sleep if terrorist sympathizers are among the civilains 'indiscriminately' bombed, which is to say, the bombing may not be as 'indiscriminate' as you portray it.

3. I certainly agree with you there, and I might add, though it is possibly beyond the scope of this thread, that Iran's lunatic head honcho continues to insist that:

a. Iran will continue to enrich uranium in spite of international sanctions.

b. Israel will be wiped off the face of the earth.

c. Of course, the enriched uranium is for peaceful purposes only.

Lebanon is just the beginning. The nations of the civilized world are going to have to decide whether they want to succumb to terrorism or to destroy it, and they're going to have to decide soon.

golem · Post by **golem** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 1:34 am

Well, having just opened a letter it looks like Iâ€™ll be away for a (hopefully) short while.

Iâ€™ve just been â€œinvitedâ€ to assist in the effort in the North.

At my age and especially with my experience in the past Iâ€™ll be involved in the interrogation of captured terrorists.

(My days of capturing or otherwise dealing with them are sad to say long gone.)

I must confess that Iâ€™m REALLY looking forward to it, and since selling my interests in the UK Iâ€™ve been at a bit of a loose end so itâ€™ll be good to be doing something that Iâ€™ve shown a certain ability for in the past, as well as doing something positive for my nation.

.

Bronwen · Post by **Bronwen** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 1:44 am

golem wrote: Well, having just opened a letter it looks like Iâ€™ll be away for a (hopefully) short while.

Iâ€™ve just been â€œinvitedâ€ to assist in the effort in the North.

At my age and especially with my experience in the past Iâ€™ll be involved in the interrogation of captured terrorists.

(My days of capturing or otherwise dealing with them are sad to say long gone.)

I must confess that Iâ€™m REALLY looking forward to it, and since selling my interests in the UK Iâ€™ve been at a bit of a loose end so itâ€™ll be good to be doing something that Iâ€™ve shown a certain ability for in the past, as well as doing something positive for my nation.

.golem, I will be praying for all of you. To paraphrase General Patton, go through 'em like crap through a goose!

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 2:25 am

golem wrote: Well, having just opened a letter it looks like Iâ€™ll be away for a (hopefully) short while.

Iâ€™ve just been â€œinvitedâ€ to assist in the effort in the North.

At my age and especially with my experience in the past Iâ€™ll be involved in the interrogation of captured terrorists.

(My days of capturing or otherwise dealing with them are sad to say long gone.)

I must confess that Iâ€™m REALLY looking forward to it, and since selling my interests in the UK Iâ€™ve been at a bit of a loose end so itâ€™ll be good to be doing something that Iâ€™ve shown a certain ability for in the past, as well as doing something positive for my nation.

.

Golem, may you go with JHWH and be guided and protected by Him.:-4

Issie · Post by **Issie** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 2:39 am

I must stop reading the tunnel vision hatred that the likes of you have been brainwashed with.

Get real?

It is you that needs to get realâ€¦.the 1967 border rule, is not my rule, your rule, Israelâ€™s rule, Palestinians ruleâ€¦..it is the UN World rule. â€¦one that you think is your right to contravene.

their turning their back on our repeated and very genuine attempts at securing peace, the hardship that so many of my family and neighbors live under,

Thatâ€™s a load of toss, and you know it, the only time peace was anywhere near being a reality, some Israeli lunatic assassinated Rabinâ€¦.because they couldnâ€™t accept that you might actually be able to live side by side in the bloody dessert.

piece of filth.? You are one hatred example of mankind and it is people like you that fuel the never ending flamesâ€¦â€¦but there you go again, blame anyone but yourselves and lets start bleating out again.

So, you havenâ€™t broken UN resolutions?

Built settlements on land that isnâ€™t yours.?

Encaged people in cities with stone walls, barbed wire and patrol checkpoints because YOU think you have a right to build settlements and communities there.?â€¦then start bleating on, when some organisation, after receiving no assistance from the UN, take matters into their own hands.

And the WORLD knows why Israel has been allowed to do as it pleasesâ€¦..The good old US of A supportâ€¦.and the world knows that once Israel has bombed Lebanon or anywhere else for that matter, that the contracts to rebuild it back up again, will fall to American companiesâ€¦.quite frankly, it stinks.!

There has never been a President elect that has succeeded to the White House without the American-Jewish vote or their money.

You say you do not kill in Gods name, but it is the indoctrinate of your faith that is the underlying cause of your hatredâ€¦you just hide behind it.

You say you have sold your interest in the UKâ€¦well all I can say is thank goodness, because we donâ€™t need people like you living amongst usâ€¦..just as we donâ€™t need Islamic lunatics.

The UK is an Island, with 60 million people, and you could fit England into the state of Texas six times over and still have space.

In the city of London, we have 7 million people of every race, creed and colour, living like sardines side by sideâ€¦â€¦yet you cannot even live side by side in the dessertâ€¦.says it all doesnâ€™t it.?

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 2:51 am

Bronwen. Your argument is commendable and I cannot fault it. But, just a couple of points.

A few days ago CNN showed scenes in Beirut of posters of well-known terrorists being sold in shops, along with audio CD's extolling terrorism in songs and rants. In the same report, two young Beirut mothers, bundled up in their Islamic coverings as if it were the middle of winter in Winnipeg, both with young children in tow, bragged about how they were teaching their kids to hate Jews and that they would be proud to have them become terrorists or suicide bombers. Were these scumbags being 'coerced'?

There are bound to be supporters, but equally, there are those who do not support Hizbollah and are painfully aware of their tactics in using civilians. Blogs have made me aware of this. Not that they love Israel any more for this.

Notwithstanding, Israel's intelligence is sharp, if not entirely faultless. So, while the pictures on the TV screens make things appear bad (and I have come to expect this of journalism), I am generally satisfied that Israel are targetting known Hizbollah buildings. Hence the addition in my sentence that you numbered 1. of the words "by appearances"

Lebanon is just the beginning. The nations of the civilized world are going to have to decide whether they want to succumb to terrorism or to destroy it, and they're going to have to decide soon.

While we in the West sit back in our armchairs and watch these wars playing themselves out, we should remember that we are at war. Those that have been directly effected by the actions of terrorists in the West will be only too aware of this. One in which we have become very complacent. One also in which we are bombarded by so many different perspectives and opinions, we are in danger of losing sight of the origins of the war and why the terrorists sprang up in the first place.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 5:45 pm

Issie wrote: I must stop reading the tunnel vision hatred that the likes of you have been brainwashed with.

Get real?

It is you that needs to get realâ€¦.the 1967 border rule, is not my rule, your rule, Israelâ€™s rule, Palestinians ruleâ€¦..it is the UN World rule. â€¦one that you think is your right to contravene.

their turning their back on our repeated and very genuine attempts at securing peace, the hardship that so many of my family and neighbors live under,

Thatâ€™s a load of toss, and you know it, the only time peace was anywhere near being a reality, some Israeli lunatic assassinated Rabinâ€¦.because they couldnâ€™t accept that you might actually be able to live side by side in the bloody dessert.

piece of filth.? You are one hatred example of mankind and it is people like you that fuel the never ending flamesâ€¦â€¦but there you go again, blame anyone but yourselves and lets start bleating out again.

So, you havenâ€™t broken UN resolutions?

Built settlements on land that isnâ€™t yours.?

Encaged people in cities with stone walls, barbed wire and patrol checkpoints because YOU think you have a right to build settlements and communities there.?â€¦then start bleating on, when some organisation, after receiving no assistance from the UN, take matters into their own hands.

And the WORLD knows why Israel has been allowed to do as it pleasesâ€¦..The good old US of A supportâ€¦.and the world knows that once Israel has bombed Lebanon or anywhere else for that matter, that the contracts to rebuild it back up again, will fall to American companiesâ€¦.quite frankly, it stinks.!

There has never been a President elect that has succeeded to the White House without the American-Jewish vote or their money.

You say you do not kill in Gods name, but it is the indoctrinate of your faith that is the underlying cause of your hatredâ€¦you just hide behind it.

You say you have sold your interest in the UKâ€¦well all I can say is thank goodness, because we donâ€™t need people like you living amongst usâ€¦..just as we donâ€™t need Islamic lunatics.

The UK is an Island, with 60 million people, and you could fit England into the state of Texas six times over and still have space.

In the city of London, we have 7 million people of every race, creed and colour, living like sardines side by sideâ€¦â€¦yet you cannot even live side by side in the dessertâ€¦.says it all doesnâ€™t it.?You are aware this conversation is about Israel fighting Hez B'Allah in Lebanon, right?

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 6:10 pm

golem wrote: Blame hezballah. they brought this thing on The Lebanon.

And they say blame Israel

So there ya go back to square1

Sounds oddly familiar

Issie · Post by **Issie** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 2:36 am

You are aware this conversation is about Israel fighting Hez B'Allah in Lebanon, right?

Try reminding your friend Golem what this topic was about......like what has a Hamas charter got to do with Hezbullah in lebanon.?

And they say blame Israel

So there ya go back to square1

Sounds oddly familiar

Oh, god forbid, we mustn`t blame Israel :-5

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 4:52 am

If a militant group of Qebecois kidnapped American soldiers and started rocketing Maine, and the Canadian gov't claimed they were powerless to stop it, I would expect an overwhelming military response.

If a militant group of Texans kidnapped Mexican soldiers and started rocketing our southern neighbors, and the US gov't claimed they were powerless to stop it, I would expect an overwhelming military response.

If a militant group of Bolivians kidnapped Paraguayan soldiers and started rocketing Praguay, and the Bolivian gov't claimed they were powerless to stop it, I would expect an overwhelming military response.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 5:42 am

I believe that what ACC is saying is that a country has a right to defend itself from militants whoever they are. And if the government of the country housing the militants does nothing for whatever reason, then the government is effectively backing the militants unless that government begs the rest of the world for help.

I agree that Israel's response appears disproportionate. But then, the arrena of war has also become riddled with PC. Israel obviously doesn't give a toss about PC and simply wants to get rid of this scourge. Look at the costs to Western forces for their involvement in Iraq. And have they echieved anything. Sometimes it appears as though things are simply worse than they were. What's really going on there. Every day I read of more people being killed by Sunnis or Shiites.

We can look back at how the Israelis gained their land, but there is nothing we can do now to change that without uprooting a nation of people. We can't go back by that route.

It would be wonderful if we could all get on. How does that song go?

I'd like to teach the world to sing

In perfect harmony

I'd like to hold it in my arms

And keep it company

I'd like to see the world for once

All standing hand in hand

And hear them echo through the hills

For peace throughout the land

That's the song i hear

Let the world sing today

A song of peace that echoes on

And never goes away

But, of course, we know that this cannot be in the present social environment. It would be nice, but I cannot see how it's going to come about just yet.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 6:20 am

Diuretic wrote: Whatever happened to a proportional response? Looks like it got trampled in the rush to all-out war which everyone seems to want so badly.Why should anyone be limited to proportional response when there was never a proportional initiation?

Take the scenario to any analogy you choose:

If you see ants in the kitchen, so you spray to kill all of them, or do you watch and only squish those that take your sugar?

In school if a kid poked another with a stick, did it stop when the other poked back with a similar stick (proportional response) or when he beat the crap out of the first or told the teacher (overwhelming response)

Proportional response to aggression only invites similar or escalated aggression, until overwhelming response is used in frustration.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 6:23 am

Issie wrote: You are aware this conversation is about Israel fighting Hez B'Allah in Lebanon, right?

Try reminding your friend Golem what this topic was about......like what has a Hamas charter got to do with Hezbullah in lebanon.?

Point taken. Golem, try to focus your bigotry and hatred to the subject at hand, please.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 8:39 am

As I posted earlier, Lebanon could end it today, or at least this week.

Issie · Post by **Issie** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 9:11 am

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 207478.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 207066.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 205246.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 207688.stm

http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread. ... 0723170930

I`m saying nothing, I`ve just posted the links that some of you might like to read.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:13 am

Issie wrote: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 207478.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 207066.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 205246.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 207688.stm

http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread. ... 0723170930

I`m saying nothing, I`ve just posted the links that some of you might like to read.

two bullet points from the first article are extremely telling:

Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said Israel had "pushed the button for its own destruction".

Syria's information minister said his country would enter the conflict if a major Israeli ground invasion of Lebanon threatened the security of Damascus.how very, very curious. what interest does iran have in this conflict? they're way across on the other side of jordan and iraq. well, of course we know why. iran funds and arms hezbollah. this is a matter of record. and ahmadinejad has stated openly that he believes israel needs to be eliminated, as the jews are a stain upon islam. and we know what interest syria has - they also fund and arm hezbollah. the conflict is at the israel-lebanon border - far from damascus. but of course, syria has always maintained that lebanon is rightfully theirs.

where is the lebanese military in this? where is lebanon's government? why are they not routing these terrorists working within their borders? could it be that these terrorists operate at the pleasure of the lebanese government? well, duh.

primary blame for this conflict falls upon hezbollah. the lebanese government can accept responsibility for the deaths of lebanese civilians, for failing to route the terrorists working withing their borders.

for all the rhetoric of peace, if the lebanese government condones via neglect the activities of terrorists working inside their borders, then it means that the lebanese government brought this upon their own people.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:30 am

make no mistake here - i feel compelled to point out, largely due to much of the rhetoric that's been exchanged on this and other matters recently - while i maintain that responsibility for the civilian deaths in lebanon falls foursquare upon hezbollah and the complicit lebanese government, i do not like, relish, support, or believe any good comes from the death of civilians. it's a horrible byproduct of conflict.

the civilian deaths in lebanon could have been completely avoided had hesbollah not decided to start lobbing rockets into israel without provocation.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 2:22 pm

Scrat wrote: So the Hezbollah started lobbing rockets first? I guess you're taking that on faith.

Get rational, this is a conflict that has been going on forever. Talk about lame.

Truth is that both sides have been taking potshots at one another for the last 60 years. Neither Hezbollah or Israel is innocent.

i'm well aware that the conflicts go back - much farther than sixty years in fact. however, the difference is that israel has been bending over backwards in the last several years in hopes of maintaining whatever fragile peace can be found.

it's real simple though. israel doesn't send suicide bombers into the gaza strip or the west bank or lebanon. israel does not have as its stated goal the destruction of lebanon or syria or jordan or the palestinians. hezbollah et al however - bless their candor - openly state that they will never be done until the jewish state is eliminated - and it's not much of a leap - the jewish people.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 2:31 pm

anastrophe wrote: i'm well aware that the conflicts go back - much farther than sixty years in fact. however, the difference is that israel has been bending over backwards in the last several years in hopes of maintaining whatever fragile peace can be found.

it's real simple though. israel doesn't send suicide bombers into the gaza strip or the west bank or lebanon. israel does not have as its stated goal the destruction of lebanon or syria or jordan or the palestinians. hezbollah et al however - bless their candor - openly state that they will never be done until the jewish state is eliminated - and it's not much of a leap - the jewish people.

And that will be followed by the rest of us Infidels.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 3:18 pm

Issie wrote: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 207478.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 207066.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 205246.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 207688.stm

http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread. ... 0723170930

I`m saying nothing, I`ve just posted the links that some of you might like to read.Amazing. All this destruction and not one Israeli casualty? At least, that's how it reads. Israel seems to be doing all the killing and the poor innocent Lebanese can only flee for their lives.

:yh_frustr Where's the balanced report?