flopstock wrote: I agree completely. Those are the 'little things', IMO.
But I've had people say to me "I don't know why I did that, I knew it would p*** you off", or " I just knew this was gonna hurt you." Well, I can tell them why they did it.. They did it because their want was greater then my feelings. So don't pretend later that my feelings ever mattered in the first place...
An apology at that point is less then nothing.
I guess I'm lucky then. I cannot think of a time I was the victim of one of your big things.
Forgiveness
Forgiveness
koan wrote: I read something very interesting in a book on healing. The author states that forgiveness can only work if the person who wronged you a)admits they wronged you and b)makes an effort to not do it again.
When people tell you to forgive they usually don't stop to consider these points. Where these two factors exist then forgiveness is the best response.
HAZAA
I have searched for just those words....
And if point a and b fail, then I guess I try and settle with ignore.
When people tell you to forgive they usually don't stop to consider these points. Where these two factors exist then forgiveness is the best response.
HAZAA
I have searched for just those words....
And if point a and b fail, then I guess I try and settle with ignore.
�You only live once, but if you do it right, once is enough.�
• Mae West
• Mae West
Forgiveness
koan wrote: I read something very interesting in a book on healing. The author states that forgiveness can only work if the person who wronged you a)admits they wronged you and b)makes an effort to not do it again.
When people tell you to forgive they usually don't stop to consider these points. Where these two factors exist then forgiveness is the best response.
I dont know if I agree with this. Forgiving someone is a personal matter that affects us in different degrees, depending on the nature or severity of the trespass I suppose. But while the act may offer relief for the agressor I think it infinitely provides something more profound to the one actually doing the forgiving. I think its boundaries reach many levels, not the least of which is a growth of the soul. It offers maturity and wisdom. A lesson created from within. Forgiving can be very powerful, and whether or not the recipient acknowledges fault is of little consequence because by the time youve reached that level of internal maturity the deed itself is no longer of any great importance, because youve left that plane of greed. Harboring anger and seething over injustices done to you is greedy in the sense that you think it provides you power but in truth it saps you of energy, which in turn stunts your personal growth.
When people tell you to forgive they usually don't stop to consider these points. Where these two factors exist then forgiveness is the best response.
I dont know if I agree with this. Forgiving someone is a personal matter that affects us in different degrees, depending on the nature or severity of the trespass I suppose. But while the act may offer relief for the agressor I think it infinitely provides something more profound to the one actually doing the forgiving. I think its boundaries reach many levels, not the least of which is a growth of the soul. It offers maturity and wisdom. A lesson created from within. Forgiving can be very powerful, and whether or not the recipient acknowledges fault is of little consequence because by the time youve reached that level of internal maturity the deed itself is no longer of any great importance, because youve left that plane of greed. Harboring anger and seething over injustices done to you is greedy in the sense that you think it provides you power but in truth it saps you of energy, which in turn stunts your personal growth.
I AM AWESOME MAN
Forgiveness
Nomad wrote: I dont know if I agree with this. Forgiving someone is a personal matter that affects us in different degrees, depending on the nature or severity of the trespass I suppose. But while the act may offer relief for the agressor I think it infinitely provides something more profound to the one actually doing the forgiving. I think its boundaries reach many levels, not the least of which is a growth of the soul. It offers maturity and wisdom. A lesson created from within. Forgiving can be very powerful, and whether or not the recipient acknowledges fault is of little consequence because by the time youve reached that level of internal maturity the deed itself is no longer of any great importance, because youve left that plane of greed. Harboring anger and seething over injustices done to you is greedy in the sense that you think it provides you power but in truth it saps you of energy, which in turn stunts your personal growth.
Hang about - is our Nomad allowed to be this deep?
I agree and more power to yer elbow Sir.
Hang about - is our Nomad allowed to be this deep?
I agree and more power to yer elbow Sir.
Forgiveness
There is no harbouring or seething involved .
Boundaries was the key word for me in Nomad's speech. I would have completely agreed with him many years ago. Developing boundaries is a difficult thing for some people and when that is true then forgiving and forgetting creates the person with the proverbial "victim" stamped upon their forehead. Thou shalt not fool me twice becomes a useful motto. I do think that the issue of forgiveness is rather broad of a topic. I forgive when someone farts on the couch next to me almost instantly. I do not forgive someone stealing from my home as easily. For example. It would be very foolish to forget about that and leave them to housesit again another weekend.
Boundaries was the key word for me in Nomad's speech. I would have completely agreed with him many years ago. Developing boundaries is a difficult thing for some people and when that is true then forgiving and forgetting creates the person with the proverbial "victim" stamped upon their forehead. Thou shalt not fool me twice becomes a useful motto. I do think that the issue of forgiveness is rather broad of a topic. I forgive when someone farts on the couch next to me almost instantly. I do not forgive someone stealing from my home as easily. For example. It would be very foolish to forget about that and leave them to housesit again another weekend.
Forgiveness
koan wrote: There is no harbouring or seething involved .
Boundaries was the key word for me in Nomad's speech. I would have completely agreed with him many years ago. Developing boundaries is a difficult thing for some people and when that is true then forgiving and forgetting creates the person with the proverbial "victim" stamped upon their forehead. Thou shalt not fool me twice becomes a useful motto. I do think that the issue of forgiveness is rather broad of a topic. I forgive when someone farts on the couch next to me almost instantly. I do not forgive someone stealing from my home as easily. For example. It would be very foolish to forget about that and leave them to housesit again another weekend.
I understand, but you dont have to be labeled a victim to forgive. In reality its a selfish act. It relieves you of the burden of carrying around that torch. Maybe your not seething every time someone wrongs you but theres a slow burn in there somewhere. Not to mention how it jades you from future interactions. You lose when you give up on the idea that most people are good and decent. You dont have to be a fool about it, but I think a subtle calm and peace is aroused in you when you can let go. That enables you to get on with being "all" of you.
Boundaries was the key word for me in Nomad's speech. I would have completely agreed with him many years ago. Developing boundaries is a difficult thing for some people and when that is true then forgiving and forgetting creates the person with the proverbial "victim" stamped upon their forehead. Thou shalt not fool me twice becomes a useful motto. I do think that the issue of forgiveness is rather broad of a topic. I forgive when someone farts on the couch next to me almost instantly. I do not forgive someone stealing from my home as easily. For example. It would be very foolish to forget about that and leave them to housesit again another weekend.
I understand, but you dont have to be labeled a victim to forgive. In reality its a selfish act. It relieves you of the burden of carrying around that torch. Maybe your not seething every time someone wrongs you but theres a slow burn in there somewhere. Not to mention how it jades you from future interactions. You lose when you give up on the idea that most people are good and decent. You dont have to be a fool about it, but I think a subtle calm and peace is aroused in you when you can let go. That enables you to get on with being "all" of you.
I AM AWESOME MAN
Forgiveness
koan wrote: There is no harbouring or seething involved .
Boundaries was the key word for me in Nomad's speech. I would have completely agreed with him many years ago. Developing boundaries is a difficult thing for some people and when that is true then forgiving and forgetting creates the person with the proverbial "victim" stamped upon their forehead. Thou shalt not fool me twice becomes a useful motto. I do think that the issue of forgiveness is rather broad of a topic. I forgive when someone farts on the couch next to me almost instantly. I do not forgive someone stealing from my home as easily. For example. It would be very foolish to forget about that and leave them to housesit again another weekend.
There's a big difference between learning a lesson for the future and forgiving the person who did it.
Yes, you should always learn from your mistakes and from the actions of others but that does not mean that you cannot forgive the wrong.
Boundaries was the key word for me in Nomad's speech. I would have completely agreed with him many years ago. Developing boundaries is a difficult thing for some people and when that is true then forgiving and forgetting creates the person with the proverbial "victim" stamped upon their forehead. Thou shalt not fool me twice becomes a useful motto. I do think that the issue of forgiveness is rather broad of a topic. I forgive when someone farts on the couch next to me almost instantly. I do not forgive someone stealing from my home as easily. For example. It would be very foolish to forget about that and leave them to housesit again another weekend.
There's a big difference between learning a lesson for the future and forgiving the person who did it.
Yes, you should always learn from your mistakes and from the actions of others but that does not mean that you cannot forgive the wrong.
Forgiveness
Perhaps I am wrong in reading into this thread that it was implied that forgiving should be done to retain relationships. I don't think that all relationships are worth retaining. I don't recommend dwelling on hard feelings but if forgiving is tied to continuing destructive relationships I want nothing of it.
Forgiveness
Here's a specific. I was dating someone. He raped me. Obviously I saw something in him that was worth dating. I forgive the action as being one of a complete moron who feels the need to take what he wants because he otherwise feels inadequate but I do not think I need to ever speak to him again and I do not think I should think kindly of him as he will likely do it again.
Forgiveness
koan wrote: Perhaps I am wrong in reading into this thread that it was implied that forgiving should be done to retain relationships. I don't think that all relationships are worth retaining. I don't recommend dwelling on hard feelings but if forgiving is tied to continuing destructive relationships I want nothing of it.
No, no, no. Forgive to retain your sanity and humanity - when a relationship is over then let it go.
Holding a grudge and insisting on getting your own back even if it's years later will destroy you as a person - let it go and move on.
I've been arguing the general and not specific to immediate personal relationships.
I agree, if you are in a destructive relationship that is going nowhere then get out - but then let it go.
No, no, no. Forgive to retain your sanity and humanity - when a relationship is over then let it go.
Holding a grudge and insisting on getting your own back even if it's years later will destroy you as a person - let it go and move on.
I've been arguing the general and not specific to immediate personal relationships.
I agree, if you are in a destructive relationship that is going nowhere then get out - but then let it go.
Forgiveness
If a person pursues the one that did them wrong by phoning, writing or otherwise communicating with them then it is no longer a one sided crime. My idea of forgiveness is to say your piece honestly and bluntly. If the person admits they wronged you and offers to try and avoid wronging you then peace and forgiveness can be found. If the person, as in the specific case that I cited, refuses to admit to anything and continues to try and contact me then the wrongs are piling up and each instance calls for forgiveness again. It can become a much bigger deal over time.
Perhaps the question is of what to do when the one who has wronged you continues to pursue without admitting there was a wrong. It compiles.
Perhaps the question is of what to do when the one who has wronged you continues to pursue without admitting there was a wrong. It compiles.
Forgiveness
koan wrote: If a person pursues the one that did them wrong by phoning, writing or otherwise communicating with them then it is no longer a one sided crime. My idea of forgiveness is to say your piece honestly and bluntly. If the person admits they wronged you and offers to try and avoid wronging you then peace and forgiveness can be found. If the person, as in the specific case that I cited, refuses to admit to anything and continues to try and contact me then the wrongs are piling up and each instance calls for forgiveness again. It can become a much bigger deal over time.
Perhaps the question is of what to do when the one who has wronged you continues to pursue without admitting there was a wrong. It compiles.
OK a specific case in point.
I preasure through family / friends did not stop the harrasment then I would seek redress through the courts.
Perhaps the question is of what to do when the one who has wronged you continues to pursue without admitting there was a wrong. It compiles.
OK a specific case in point.
I preasure through family / friends did not stop the harrasment then I would seek redress through the courts.
Forgiveness
Bryn Mawr wrote: OK a specific case in point.
I preasure through family / friends did not stop the harrasment then I would seek redress through the courts.
So you can see how forgiveness is not always a straight forward case.
In the end, I found a way to cause him a big enough problem that it made it not worth his while to bother me anymore. I think a similar situation happens quite frequently on a non physical but still psychologically damaging level on forums.
I preasure through family / friends did not stop the harrasment then I would seek redress through the courts.
So you can see how forgiveness is not always a straight forward case.
In the end, I found a way to cause him a big enough problem that it made it not worth his while to bother me anymore. I think a similar situation happens quite frequently on a non physical but still psychologically damaging level on forums.
Forgiveness
koan wrote: So you can see how forgiveness is not always a straight forward case.
In the end, I found a way to cause him a big enough problem that it made it not worth his while to bother me anymore. I think a similar situation happens quite frequently on a non physical but still psychologically damaging level on forums.
I'm sorry, I tend to argue from a theoretical viewpoint - I have more experience there
In the end, I found a way to cause him a big enough problem that it made it not worth his while to bother me anymore. I think a similar situation happens quite frequently on a non physical but still psychologically damaging level on forums.
I'm sorry, I tend to argue from a theoretical viewpoint - I have more experience there
Forgiveness
SnoozeControl wrote: So you're comparing a rape and continued stalking by the rapist to harrassment in a forum? I fail to see any similiarities.
One person tries to dominate another, refuses to admit to the behaviour and won't back down. It is very similar in my mind. Different technique. Same behaviour.
One person tries to dominate another, refuses to admit to the behaviour and won't back down. It is very similar in my mind. Different technique. Same behaviour.
Forgiveness
Bryn Mawr wrote: I'm sorry, I tend to argue from a theoretical viewpoint - I have more experience there
I don't bring the example in to eliminate your opinion. I'm quite over it all. I brought it in to ground the topic a bit and give an example of how theory and experience need to be blended. Theoretically I forgave him. Experientially I attacked him back in order to defend my rightful boundaries.
I don't bring the example in to eliminate your opinion. I'm quite over it all. I brought it in to ground the topic a bit and give an example of how theory and experience need to be blended. Theoretically I forgave him. Experientially I attacked him back in order to defend my rightful boundaries.
Forgiveness
koan wrote: Here's a specific. I was dating someone. He raped me. Obviously I saw something in him that was worth dating. I forgive the action as being one of a complete moron who feels the need to take what he wants because he otherwise feels inadequate but I do not think I need to ever speak to him again and I do not think I should think kindly of him as he will likely do it again.
Theres no right or wrong answer as I said I think its personal. My real question was how does forgiveness liberate you ? In what way do we benefit by forgiving ?
Theres no right or wrong answer as I said I think its personal. My real question was how does forgiveness liberate you ? In what way do we benefit by forgiving ?
I AM AWESOME MAN
Forgiveness
koan wrote: I don't bring the example in to eliminate your opinion. I'm quite over it all. I brought it in to ground the topic a bit and give an example of how theory and experience need to be blended. Theoretically I forgave him. Experientially I attacked him back in order to defend my rightful boundaries.
Not knowing the case you're quoting I cannot comment but I have no objection to fighting your corner - I've just seen too many people tear themself apart when they cannot win and cannot let it go.
Not knowing the case you're quoting I cannot comment but I have no objection to fighting your corner - I've just seen too many people tear themself apart when they cannot win and cannot let it go.
Forgiveness
flopstock wrote: I don't think it does... folks just think it does. It makes you feel better about yourself, ya know ..you were the better person, you acted like an adult, there will be peace in the valley...etc... I don't think you can really let it go by saying 'i forgive you". If you could, you wouldn't remember any of the things that had been done to you that you had to forgive for...
I think it's more important to remember the things you have been forgiven 'for'. Might make you think twice next time.
There are three different concepts within this post.
Firstly "I, the victim, forgive you". This does not imply "I foget everything that's happened.
Secondly "I, the victim, forget the past" which implies that you have not learnt from it.
and thirdly "I, the transgressor, remember the past" which is independant of the memory of the victim.
All three are independent actions with different consequences.
You can do the first whilst not doing the second.
You can have the third at the same time as the first.
I think it's more important to remember the things you have been forgiven 'for'. Might make you think twice next time.
There are three different concepts within this post.
Firstly "I, the victim, forgive you". This does not imply "I foget everything that's happened.
Secondly "I, the victim, forget the past" which implies that you have not learnt from it.
and thirdly "I, the transgressor, remember the past" which is independant of the memory of the victim.
All three are independent actions with different consequences.
You can do the first whilst not doing the second.
You can have the third at the same time as the first.
Forgiveness
And it still comes back to how you define "forgiveness". If the situation - whatever it is - is a continuing one, then you don't have closure until there is some kind of resolution. Then you have choices. Either you put down the burden of anger, bitterness, hate, whatever it is, make a strong and conscious decision to move on and direct your energies to something else, or you nurture the grudge till it consumes you.
For me there are a few extreme cases where the injury would be beyond my capability to forgive however you define the word. But in those cases I think I probably wouldnt want to continue living anyway.
For me there are a few extreme cases where the injury would be beyond my capability to forgive however you define the word. But in those cases I think I probably wouldnt want to continue living anyway.
"Life is too short to ski with ugly men"
Forgiveness
flopstock wrote: I don't think it does... folks just think it does. It makes you feel better about yourself, ya know ..you were the better person, you acted like an adult, there will be peace in the valley...etc... I don't think you can really let it go by saying 'i forgive you". If you could, you wouldn't remember any of the things that had been done to you that you had to forgive for...
I think it's more important to remember the things you have been forgiven 'for'. Might make you think twice next time.
I always respect your opinions.
I think it's more important to remember the things you have been forgiven 'for'. Might make you think twice next time.
I always respect your opinions.
I AM AWESOME MAN
Forgiveness
flopstock wrote: Just ignore me darlin...i don't think i knew what was really going on here...back to the arcade for me...
Forgive me, I've been hammering away on two fronts for hours.
This one's been interesting and I think that Koan and I are getting to an agreement.
The other's just been hard work.
it's 01:10 and I've to be up for work at 07:00 - I'm off to bed.
Forgive me, I've been hammering away on two fronts for hours.
This one's been interesting and I think that Koan and I are getting to an agreement.
The other's just been hard work.
it's 01:10 and I've to be up for work at 07:00 - I'm off to bed.
Forgiveness
As to the severity of bullying that can happen in cyberworld. I know one person who revealed that he was homosexual to another member over emails and was subsequently blackmailed. The supposed friend threatened to tell his mother, who's email had been inadvertantly included in one of the correspondences. In this manner control was maintained over the one person's very real life.
btw the members were not necessarily of this forum and it doesn't matter who they were.
So does he forgive? At the time he told me he was terrified. He may still be.
It is easy to shrug off someone else's nightmare. And it takes different people different lengths of time to recover. The only thing that matters is feeling safe. Forgiveness sometimes is a luxury.
btw the members were not necessarily of this forum and it doesn't matter who they were.
So does he forgive? At the time he told me he was terrified. He may still be.
It is easy to shrug off someone else's nightmare. And it takes different people different lengths of time to recover. The only thing that matters is feeling safe. Forgiveness sometimes is a luxury.
Forgiveness
SnoozeControl wrote: I understand what you're saying, but I have to wonder if he meant for his secret to come out. What was the final outcome... did his mother finally find out? And what sort of blackmail? Was money involved?
I suggested he tell his mother so that he eliminated the threat. Don't know if he did. Whether he wanted it to come out or not is entirely irrelevant and no money was involved. It was entirely emotional and psychological blackmail.
The reality is that what is important to one person can be trivial to another. Forgiveness in this case would not solve the problem.
I suggested he tell his mother so that he eliminated the threat. Don't know if he did. Whether he wanted it to come out or not is entirely irrelevant and no money was involved. It was entirely emotional and psychological blackmail.
The reality is that what is important to one person can be trivial to another. Forgiveness in this case would not solve the problem.
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Accountable
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Forgiveness
cherandbuster wrote: Acc, my theory as well. I like the way you put it!
I would rather believe in others and be occasionally disappointed . . . than be cynical about others and be occasionally right. It's how I choose to live my life.
:yh_hugs :yh_hugs
I would rather believe in others and be occasionally disappointed . . . than be cynical about others and be occasionally right. It's how I choose to live my life.
:yh_hugs :yh_hugs
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Forgiveness
koan wrote: There is no harbouring or seething involved .
Boundaries was the key word for me in Nomad's speech. I would have completely agreed with him many years ago. Developing boundaries is a difficult thing for some people and when that is true then forgiving and forgetting creates the person with the proverbial "victim" stamped upon their forehead. Thou shalt not fool me twice becomes a useful motto. I do think that the issue of forgiveness is rather broad of a topic. I forgive when someone farts on the couch next to me almost instantly. I do not forgive someone stealing from my home as easily. For example. It would be very foolish to forget about that and leave them to housesit again another weekend.I can forgive without restoring trust. If I am wronged, and the person is genuinely sorry, I may forgive him. If the wrong was done on impulse, say he stole from me or neglected my child while babysitting, I will not trust him in the same situation, though he is forgiven.
Boundaries was the key word for me in Nomad's speech. I would have completely agreed with him many years ago. Developing boundaries is a difficult thing for some people and when that is true then forgiving and forgetting creates the person with the proverbial "victim" stamped upon their forehead. Thou shalt not fool me twice becomes a useful motto. I do think that the issue of forgiveness is rather broad of a topic. I forgive when someone farts on the couch next to me almost instantly. I do not forgive someone stealing from my home as easily. For example. It would be very foolish to forget about that and leave them to housesit again another weekend.I can forgive without restoring trust. If I am wronged, and the person is genuinely sorry, I may forgive him. If the wrong was done on impulse, say he stole from me or neglected my child while babysitting, I will not trust him in the same situation, though he is forgiven.
Forgiveness
Accountable wrote: I can forgive without restoring trust. If I am wronged, and the person is genuinely sorry, I may forgive him. If the wrong was done on impulse, say he stole from me or neglected my child while babysitting, I will not trust him in the same situation, though he is forgiven.
ok. what if the person is not only genuinely sorry but refuses to admit he wronged you? I'll imagine you still forgive him but what do you do?
ok. what if the person is not only genuinely sorry but refuses to admit he wronged you? I'll imagine you still forgive him but what do you do?
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Forgiveness
koan wrote: ok. what if the person is not only genuinely sorry but refuses to admit he wronged you? I'll imagine you still forgive him but what do you do?I don't see how that's possible. What would he be sorry for if he did nothing wrong?
Forgiveness
Accountable wrote: I don't see how that's possible. What would he be sorry for if he did nothing wrong?
My apologies, it got tricky with the nots. been typing all day.
not only is he not sorry but also refuses to admit he wronged you.
translate: you got wronged. buddy says "to hell with you, it's all in your head" and continues to wrong you. What do you do? How do you forgive an ongoing wrong?
My apologies, it got tricky with the nots. been typing all day.
not only is he not sorry but also refuses to admit he wronged you.
translate: you got wronged. buddy says "to hell with you, it's all in your head" and continues to wrong you. What do you do? How do you forgive an ongoing wrong?
Forgiveness
Bryn Mawr wrote: No, no, no. Forgive to retain your sanity and humanity - when a relationship is over then let it go.
Holding a grudge and insisting on getting your own back even if it's years later will destroy you as a person - let it go and move on.
I've been arguing the general and not specific to immediate personal relationships.
I agree, if you are in a destructive relationship that is going nowhere then get out - but then let it go.
Speaking of holding grudges or resentments...it's very true that will destroy you as a person, regardless of what the offense was, however, in my experience and knowledge of this letting go of a resentment doesn't always equal forgiveness...more so, it equals just that - letting it go. By letting it go, whether it be anger, grief, whatever, you're clearing your own plate, irregardless of the others involved. On the flip side, when it's an unjustified grudge, reliving that over and over and over again (for instance you're in an argument and 3 weeks later you're STILL thinking of what you SHOULD have said) is the stuff that causes ulcers. Do ya really think that person is still thinking about you?
Now, most of what I view regarding forgiveness and letting go stems from my background (in recovery) and my job (helping others to recover), so sometimes that tends to differ from the norm.
Holding a grudge and insisting on getting your own back even if it's years later will destroy you as a person - let it go and move on.
I've been arguing the general and not specific to immediate personal relationships.
I agree, if you are in a destructive relationship that is going nowhere then get out - but then let it go.
Speaking of holding grudges or resentments...it's very true that will destroy you as a person, regardless of what the offense was, however, in my experience and knowledge of this letting go of a resentment doesn't always equal forgiveness...more so, it equals just that - letting it go. By letting it go, whether it be anger, grief, whatever, you're clearing your own plate, irregardless of the others involved. On the flip side, when it's an unjustified grudge, reliving that over and over and over again (for instance you're in an argument and 3 weeks later you're STILL thinking of what you SHOULD have said) is the stuff that causes ulcers. Do ya really think that person is still thinking about you?
Now, most of what I view regarding forgiveness and letting go stems from my background (in recovery) and my job (helping others to recover), so sometimes that tends to differ from the norm.
Forgiveness
koan wrote: My apologies, it got tricky with the nots. been typing all day.
not only is he not sorry but also refuses to admit he wronged you.
translate: you got wronged. buddy says "to hell with you, it's all in your head" and continues to wrong you. What do you do? How do you forgive an ongoing wrong?
the first thing that comes to my mind is why would you still be associated with someone that continues to wrong you, especially if you've vocalized how you feel about that?
not only is he not sorry but also refuses to admit he wronged you.
translate: you got wronged. buddy says "to hell with you, it's all in your head" and continues to wrong you. What do you do? How do you forgive an ongoing wrong?
the first thing that comes to my mind is why would you still be associated with someone that continues to wrong you, especially if you've vocalized how you feel about that?
Forgiveness
Mystery wrote: the first thing that comes to my mind is why would you still be associated with someone that continues to wrong you, especially if you've vocalized how you feel about that?
Thank you. That's my point as well.
Though I have vocalized how I feel others seemed to feel that forgiveness should include both people being able to continue a normal relationship regardless of details. Or perhaps we can all agree that peaceful forgiveness means both people leaving the relationship behind them sometimes.
Thank you. That's my point as well.
Though I have vocalized how I feel others seemed to feel that forgiveness should include both people being able to continue a normal relationship regardless of details. Or perhaps we can all agree that peaceful forgiveness means both people leaving the relationship behind them sometimes.
Forgiveness
Yes indeed, Mystery and Koan. Forgiveness - in my book - doesn't mean condoning what's happened, excusing it, being friends with the person who wronged you or anything like that. And it sure doesn't mean you have to stick around to get clobbered again though in some circumstances you may choose to take that risk.
"Life is too short to ski with ugly men"
Forgiveness
Nomad wrote: Theres no right or wrong answer as I said I think its personal. My real question was how does forgiveness liberate you ? In what way do we benefit by forgiving ?
Just clarifying my own experience.
1. My mother was a GOOD mum, but not loving.
I explored the reasons behind this because it 'stood between' us.
I believe I came to understand the reasons and that underststanding led me
to put the issue behind me and be at peace with our relationship.
2. Married for 40 yrs. Husband has 2 affairs (that I know of). Carry on because of
children and after they left home because of material 'stuff'.
I explored the reasons why he had affairs ....yep there's always 2 sides to
every relationship.... but bearing in mind MY part in the marriage, the blame
lies fairly and squarely on HIS shoulders. All my family and HIS agree here.
I have NO forgiveness in this situation only acceptance (wiithout bitterness
now) that it happened and the determination to part, and move on to a
happier life.
3. Keeping things in perspective, all other 'wrongs that require forgiveness'
against me in my life would be considered trivial but none the less hurtful (and
I am easily hurt). If forgiveness means accepting apologies and explanations,
then I've done that hundreds of times and depending on the person or
circumstances the 'air is cleared' and everything goes back to 'normality'.
In a lot of cases I can still work with that person but the realtionship is
'soured'....I'm afraid i have a long memory concerning people that 'sh!t' on me
and despite reading many Buddhist teachings on this 'Forgiveness' topic I find
I still cannot empty this 'cupboard' in my brain where this stuff is stored.
I think we make judgements in our own hearts and heads about those that are worth forgiving and those that aren't and these judgements are made based on the person and the history you have with them. This may seem harsh and shallow, but is reality.
The benefits of forgiving....mending of a relationship you value, regaining peace of mind.
Just clarifying my own experience.
1. My mother was a GOOD mum, but not loving.
I explored the reasons behind this because it 'stood between' us.
I believe I came to understand the reasons and that underststanding led me
to put the issue behind me and be at peace with our relationship.
2. Married for 40 yrs. Husband has 2 affairs (that I know of). Carry on because of
children and after they left home because of material 'stuff'.
I explored the reasons why he had affairs ....yep there's always 2 sides to
every relationship.... but bearing in mind MY part in the marriage, the blame
lies fairly and squarely on HIS shoulders. All my family and HIS agree here.
I have NO forgiveness in this situation only acceptance (wiithout bitterness
now) that it happened and the determination to part, and move on to a
happier life.
3. Keeping things in perspective, all other 'wrongs that require forgiveness'
against me in my life would be considered trivial but none the less hurtful (and
I am easily hurt). If forgiveness means accepting apologies and explanations,
then I've done that hundreds of times and depending on the person or
circumstances the 'air is cleared' and everything goes back to 'normality'.
In a lot of cases I can still work with that person but the realtionship is
'soured'....I'm afraid i have a long memory concerning people that 'sh!t' on me
and despite reading many Buddhist teachings on this 'Forgiveness' topic I find
I still cannot empty this 'cupboard' in my brain where this stuff is stored.
I think we make judgements in our own hearts and heads about those that are worth forgiving and those that aren't and these judgements are made based on the person and the history you have with them. This may seem harsh and shallow, but is reality.
The benefits of forgiving....mending of a relationship you value, regaining peace of mind.
A smile is a window on your face to show your heart is home
Forgiveness
There can be no forgiveness without accountability, or remorse.
When true and complete forgiveness happens, all fear and trepidation is gone. This action is possible when a transgressor is someone we place importance in having in our lives. Tolerance can be mistaken for forgiveness.
My dad hurts and dissapoints me over and over again. He never apologizes, and he never takes responsibility for the hurt he causes me, or others. Obviously I have to see him, but it never feels good because I know he will hurt again. I cannott forgive anyone in whom I see the potential for destroying the spirit of others.To forgive automaticly and blindly is foolish, and dangerous. Forgiveness is earned. It has to be to have value.
When true and complete forgiveness happens, all fear and trepidation is gone. This action is possible when a transgressor is someone we place importance in having in our lives. Tolerance can be mistaken for forgiveness.
My dad hurts and dissapoints me over and over again. He never apologizes, and he never takes responsibility for the hurt he causes me, or others. Obviously I have to see him, but it never feels good because I know he will hurt again. I cannott forgive anyone in whom I see the potential for destroying the spirit of others.To forgive automaticly and blindly is foolish, and dangerous. Forgiveness is earned. It has to be to have value.
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Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Forgiveness
Reading over all this, it's clear we have different definitions of forgiveness. I think this thread shows that forgiveness is a continuum, from holding a smoldering grudge at one end, to full forgiveness, exceptance, and dancing in a poppy field barefoot at the other extreme.
If you can't grant full forgiveness - because frankly, some people are unaffected whether you forgive or not - you must find a place on the continuum that keeps you sane and allows you to move on.
If you can't grant full forgiveness - because frankly, some people are unaffected whether you forgive or not - you must find a place on the continuum that keeps you sane and allows you to move on.
Forgiveness
Accountable wrote: Reading over all this, it's clear we have different definitions of forgiveness. I think this thread shows that forgiveness is a continuum, from holding a smoldering grudge at one end, to full forgiveness, exceptance, and dancing in a poppy field barefoot at the other extreme.
If you can't grant full forgiveness - because frankly, some people are unaffected whether you forgive or not - you must find a place on the continuum that keeps you sane and allows you to move on.
The definitions are different because Human Beings are different.....anyway, I'm off to dance in the poppy fields.
Oh yeh....before I go......the last sentence makes perfect sense to me and I've stored in the section of my brain that contains other ACC words of wisdom. :-4
If you can't grant full forgiveness - because frankly, some people are unaffected whether you forgive or not - you must find a place on the continuum that keeps you sane and allows you to move on.
The definitions are different because Human Beings are different.....anyway, I'm off to dance in the poppy fields.
Oh yeh....before I go......the last sentence makes perfect sense to me and I've stored in the section of my brain that contains other ACC words of wisdom. :-4
A smile is a window on your face to show your heart is home
Forgiveness
Do what you feel in your heart to be right, you'll be criticized anyway. You'll be damned if you do, and damned if you don't
some things i can never forgive but i can bury them which enables me to move past them :-6
some things i can never forgive but i can bury them which enables me to move past them :-6
Forgiveness
Can I just say that I find this thread very helpful. The wider viewpoint, particularly.
"Life is too short to ski with ugly men"
Forgiveness
is this a spin off thread from a falling out or just a genuine what do you think of forgiveness 
Forgiveness
Buttercup - I think it did spin off from other stuff.. but it's transcended that - sure with occasional lapses - and has some really thoughtprovoking and helpful input. Worth reading.
"Life is too short to ski with ugly men"