A question of morality.

gordonartist · Post by **gordonartist** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 7:55 pm

There are numerous shows on our TV about when and why and how to catch fish. The presenters hold up for inspection and TV coverage, the still wriggling fish.

They then release them back to the wild muttering various platitudes.

These are the "Sport" fishermen and women.

On the other hand, except when the fish is undersize and illegal, I have always prepared my catch for eating.

Who is morally right? The "sport" fisherman or me?

Gordon.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 7:59 pm

I think its ok to catch and release. From what Ive seen theyre umm respectful of the fishes. They want them healthy so they can catch them and release them again.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 10:34 pm

flopstock wrote: Oh come on now! You're trying to tell us that you've never seen ANY of them 'cop' a quick feel, before the release?:rolleyes:

maybe

but I didnt know thats why we were there

theia · Post by **theia** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 12:02 am

gordonartist wrote: There are numerous shows on our TV about when and why and how to catch fish. The presenters hold up for inspection and TV coverage, the still wriggling fish.

They then release them back to the wild muttering various platitudes.

These are the "Sport" fishermen and women.

On the other hand, except when the fish is undersize and illegal, I have always prepared my catch for eating.

Who is morally right? The "sport" fisherman or me?

Gordon.

I know nothing at all about fishing so I would just like to ask the experts, does the hook hurt or damage the fish's mouth? Because if it does, then I think I would say that it's better to eat it than throw it back.

golem · Post by **golem** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 12:22 am

Who cares?

When brought down to its essentials fishing is just a bit of string with a worm at each end.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 1:08 am

This is amazing. We're talking about sport fishing and the "morality" of it? I don't even understand how the two can be correlated in any way. WTF does morals have to do with catch and release or catch and eat? It's absurd.

Furthermore, fish do not feel deep pain, so a hook in it's mouth, quickly removed causes no more discomfort to a fish than removing a sliver from your finger. Probably less.

The truly most amazing thing? That I replied to this post in the first place.

golem · Post by **golem** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 1:29 am

Fish are capable of experiencing pain. This is the conclusion of researchers who observed rainbow trout behaviour after the animals were given injections that would be painful to people. Other scientists reject their interpretation, but the study could still be used by anti-angling campaigners.

The argument over whether fishing is a "blood sport" in the same vein as fox hunting and hare coursing has hinged on whether fish feel pain in a similar way to animals. If they do not, as most researchers currently believe, then the animal welfare argument against angling largely falls apart.

Lynne Sneddon at the Roslin Institute, near Edinburgh, Scotland, and her colleagues, took measurements from individual neurons in anaesthetised fish while they poked the fish's heads and applied acid and heat.

They identified up to 22 neurons that fire in response to the stimuli. What is more, the firing pattern looked much the same as neurons in humans that transmit the pain message. So fish have the neural hardware to transmit the message but does it register as pain in the fish brain?

It is of course impossible to really know whether another person is feeling pain, let alone another species, notes Patrick Bateson, an animal behaviour expert at Cambridge University, UK. But the next best thing, he says, is to look for behavioural responses that resemble those exhibited by a human in pain.

Bee venom

The team compared the behaviour of fish that had either bee venom or acetic acid injected into their lips with animals that had received harmless saline.

The fish given the nasty chemicals showed clear signs of physiological stress, the researchers found. They took 90 minutes longer to resume feeding and their rate of gill breathing was characteristic of a fish swimming at top speed.

More surprisingly, they displayed very unusual behaviours such as rocking from side to side. Sneddon believes this may be similar to repetitive behaviours sometimes seen in zoo animals. The fish treated with acid also rubbed their lips on the sides and bottom of the tank.

"These behaviours are not just reflex responses," argues Sneddon. If a human touches a hot iron then, before any pain is registered, a local neural reflex circuit pulls the hand away to prevent damage. But the throbbing discomfort felt after the event is pain. She believes that the strange trout behaviours are evidence of something similar.

Cry out

But James Rose, an expert in fish neurobiology at the University of Wyoming in Laramie disagrees: "It has nothing to do with pain - the fish brain just hasn't got the hardware to experience pain."

He points out, for example, that even people in a persistent vegetative state are able to make complex responses to painful stimuli. They can cry out or screw up their faces without ever being conscious of their surroundings.

Whether it can be classed as pain or not, Sneddon's work has identified that fish experience prolonged discomfort following an injection that would be painful to humans.

For Bateson that is a significant step forward in the argument : "There seems, already, to be a good argument to say that fish should be treated carefully."

Source - The New Scientist.

Journal reference: Proceedings of the Royal Society B (DOI 10.1098/rspb.2003.2349)

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 1:35 am

And as I said, a little more clearly, a hook removed *properly and carefully* probably does not cause the fish any more discomfort than removing a sliver from your finger.

Why do I even involve myself in conversations that I think are absurd, anyway???

Probably because the next thing you know, all the anti-hunters will be rallying 'round, screaming for "fish rights." :-5

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 1:45 am

Diuretic wrote: Could be compulsive-response disorder BR

Are you like a Nomad sock-puppet? Trying to psycho-analyze me?

golem · Post by **golem** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 1:53 am

BabyRider wrote: And as I said, a little more clearly, a hook removed *properly and carefully* probably does not cause the fish any more discomfort than removing a sliver from your finger.

Why do I even involve myself in conversations that I think are absurd, anyway???

Probably because the next thing you know, all the anti-hunters will be rallying 'round, screaming for "fish rights." :-5

Hunting and killing for pleasure is a personality disorder.

Waltzing Matilda · Post by **Waltzing Matilda** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 3:48 am

gordonartist wrote: There are numerous shows on our TV about when and why and how to catch fish. The presenters hold up for inspection and TV coverage, the still wriggling fish.

They then release them back to the wild muttering various platitudes.

These are the "Sport" fishermen and women.

On the other hand, except when the fish is undersize and illegal, I have always prepared my catch for eating.

Who is morally right? The "sport" fisherman or me?

Gordon.My husband does a catch and release system...but he does kiss them before he releaes them:-3 (like Rex Hunt)...I tend to think that his actions are cruel and unusual punishment on those poor fishies...they proberly sink to the bottom and did anyway:p

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 5:51 am

I used to practice catch & release. Some of the fish I caught were so big they wouldn't have fit in the fry pan. Besides, it would have been too much meat for my small family. I didn't want to waste it, so I would let it go so someone else might catch it. All I kept was the memory and the story of the hours-long fight to land it. Too bad there weren't digital cameras back then - maybe more people would have believed me. :rolleyes:

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 7:25 am

SnoozeControl wrote: All I know is that those fishing shows are some of the worst TV ever created. My ex loved to watch some fat guy with a Southern accent say over and over again

"Nice fish." "Pretty fish." "That thar's a nice, pretty fish." Arg!

Its more like an action film with the fishes thrashing about, hooked weapons protruding from their faces and those beady little eyes boring a hole through you.

Was your ex as affectionate with you ?

"Nice sneezer" "Pretty little sneezer"

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 8:03 am

BabyRider wrote: Are you like a Nomad sock-puppet? Trying to psycho-analyze me?

I dont have any assistants. By the way I just finished chapter 3. :-6

CARLA · Post by **CARLA** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 8:37 am

BR, I couldn't agree more, that is why I didn't reply to this post till now. I agree 100% about the fish and pain. But let me tell you slivers hurt like hell to have removed...

[QUOTE]Originally Posted by BabyRider

This is amazing. We're talking about sport fishing and the "morality" of it? I don't even understand how the two can be correlated in any way. WTF does morals have to do with catch and release or catch and eat? It's absurd.

Furthermore, fish do not feel deep pain, so a hook in it's mouth, quickly removed causes no more discomfort to a fish than removing a sliver from your finger. Probably less.

The truly most amazing thing? That I replied to this post in the first place. [/QUOTE]

sunny104 · Post by **sunny104** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 8:54 am

I had fish for lunch yesterday! :-3

sunny104 · Post by **sunny104** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 9:10 am

flopstock wrote: Did it scream?:eek:

It was from McD's, so it wasn't "real" fish anyway...LOL!

chonsigirl · Post by **chonsigirl** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 9:11 am

Whew, thought it was those chicken nuggets for a minute............

sunny104 · Post by **sunny104** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 9:13 am

chonsigirl wrote: Whew, thought it was those chicken nuggets for a minute............

:yh_sick

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 9:18 am

The fish ! What about the fish people ? Doesnt anyone care anymore ? Vultures !

chonsigirl · Post by **chonsigirl** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 9:19 am

Makes you want to be a vegetarian, I do try to eat meat as little as possible.

sunny104 · Post by **sunny104** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 9:22 am

Nomad wrote: The fish ! What about the fish people ? Doesnt anyone care anymore ? Vultures !

Fish people?!?!?!:eek:

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 9:25 am

sunny104 wrote: Fish people?!?!?!:eek:

LOL !

Yea...thats right fish people

sunny104 · Post by **sunny104** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 9:28 am

Nomad wrote: LOL !

Yea...thats right fish people

Well..can we eat them??

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 12:47 pm

I hang my principles on the case for fear. Do you know what it feels like to be running for your life? I get no pleasure out of scaring anyone or anything let alone hurting it. But this is my choice and I don't bang on about it like I'm on a mission to convert everyone. Since I stopped eating meat in 1992, I find that I no longer have a taste for it. Occasionally, the smell of bacon attracts me, but my appetite is not sharpened by the smell.

I'm not strictly a vegetarian, I will eat meat, fish, poultry, etc if there is no other choice. Nonetheless, I would kill as efficiently as possible. Vegetables provide me with first hand nourishment rather than second hand through another creature. The only advantage from eating meat is that our bodies can assimilate it more easily than vegetables. There is no other nutrÃƒtÃƒonal advantage.

The essential fatty acids that are derived from oily fish are available in various seeds since nature has to provide for herbivores.

However, I sometimes become angry when I hear people arguing that creatures feel no pain. How the hell would they know? Why do creatures try to get away and get stressed out? People will argue black is white if it suits them. The only difference with animals is that they get over their pain more quickly. Not like a lot of human wimps.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 12:48 pm

golem wrote: Hunting and killing for pleasure is a personality disorder.
Awww, Sh!t, are you really gonna get me started? This is a joke, right? Please tell me this is a joke.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 12:52 pm

OpenMind wrote: I hang my principles on the case for fear. Do you know what it feels like to be running for your life? I get no pleasure out of scaring anyone or anything let alone hurting it. But this is my choice and I don't bang on about it like I'm on a mission to convert everyone. Since I stopped eating meat in 1992, I find that I no longer have a taste for it. Occasionally, the smell of bacon attracts me, but my appetite is not sharpened by the smell.

I'm not strictly a vegetarian, I will eat meat, fish, poultry, etc if there is no other choice. Nonetheless, I would kill as efficiently as possible. Vegetables provide me with first hand nourishment rather than second hand through another creature. The only advantage from eating meat is that our bodies can assimilate it more easily than vegetables. There is no other nutrÃƒtÃƒonal advantage.

The essential fatty acids that are derived from oily fish are available in various seeds since nature has to provide for herbivores.

However, I sometimes become angry when I hear people arguing that creatures feel no pain. How the hell would they know? Why do creatures try to get away and get stressed out? People will argue black is white if it suits them. The only difference with animals is that they get over their pain more quickly. Not like a lot of human wimps.

If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 1:00 pm

Nomad wrote: If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason.

AS I recall, it was proved back in the 70s that plants experience stress when they are cut or severed.

valerie · Post by **valerie** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 1:02 pm

OpenMind wrote: AS I recall, it was proved back in the 70s that plants experience stress when they are cut or severed.

"When torn from their life source"

I heard that, too, OM, let me see if I can figure out WHERE...

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 1:23 pm

valerie wrote: "When torn from their life source"

I heard that, too, OM, let me see if I can figure out WHERE...

I believe it was an electrochemical reaction.

valerie · Post by **valerie** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 1:33 pm

All I can find... and it's not much... but it's out of a 1972 cookbook of

mine... something about the moral question of eating meat. "Everything

living must die and it has been proven that fruits and

vegetables emit a death cry when torn form their life source. So no

self-righteous crap about not being a murderer every time you eat a

carrot."

This is Dana Crumb's (wife of R. Crumb) cookbook EAT IT.

The date would fit with whata we recall, I guess.

:-6

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 1:55 pm

valerie wrote: All I can find... and it's not much... but it's out of a 1972 cookbook of

mine... something about the moral question of eating meat. "Everything

living must die and it has been proven that fruits and

vegetables emit a death cry when torn form their life source. So no

self-righteous crap about not being a murderer every time you eat a

carrot."

This is Dana Crumb's (wife of R. Crumb) cookbook EAT IT.

The date would fit with whata we recall, I guess.

:-6

I know that there is more than that. I remember hearing that plants scream when any part of them was pulled off and that these people (whoever they were had heard the plants). I tried it and couldn't hear a thing. Still, when I was a small boy, I would pull spiders' legs off and flies' wings off, and I didn't hear them scream either. Our cat scratched me and hissed at me when I tried to pull his leg off.

But I do remember reading about an electrochemical reaction experienced by a plant whenever it was cut.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 3:50 pm

ArnoldLayne wrote: When hooked up to an electro- oscillospectroscope, Prince Charles plants were discovered to scream and cry in pain, which was translated into "Can't you make him go away"

Yeh, I remember that now. I felt real sorry for those plants.