Here's a toughie....

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 8:45 pm

Talking to Nomad about work reminded me of this, and I'd like some unbiased input.

I have these two customers, we'll call Tom and Dee, and they have a grandson who lives with them we'll call Charlie. Charlie is 5, and has lived with his grandparents for the past year or so. Parents are complete losers, typical drinking drug-abusing pieces of crap.

So. Tom and Dee, even with the responsibility of bringing up their grandson, think it's ok to have Charlie in the bar with them, while they drink, for several hours, 7 days a week.

I feel so horrible for this poor little guy, bored out of his skull, watching grandma and grandpa get drunk in this smoky, hole-in-the-wall bar.

If it was occassionally, I'd be less concerned, but it is literally every single day. And it's not a quick beer and we're gone, it's hours.

Then my practical side kicks in: he's definitely not going to be able to live with his parents, that's not an option. If he gets taken away from his grandparents, too, what will it be like for him to be in the system?

I'm so torn...part of me wants to call child protective services on their ignorant, selfish asses, and part of me says mind my own business.

What would you do?

valerie · Post by **valerie** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 8:51 pm

Wow, that is a toughie. Poor kid. I'd say call but if he didn't get taken

away, the grandparents (wrong word for THEM, really) might just switch

bars.

It's no place for a little boy.

I think I'd call. I think.

Now I want to cry.

:-1

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 8:59 pm

valerie wrote: Wow, that is a toughie. Poor kid. I'd say call but if he didn't get taken

away, the grandparents (wrong word for THEM, really) might just switch

bars.

It's no place for a little boy.

I think I'd call. I think.

Now I want to cry.

:-1
Oh damn, I'm sorry Val, I don't want to make anyone cry, but it breaks my f*cking heart to see this poor kid being raised in a bar...is that a worse fate than having druggie parents? Drunks for grandparents?

The real big problem is, Tom and Dee have been coming to the Alibi for about 20 years. They are well-loved, popular customers with the owners and management and the owner is more concerned about losing their daily contributions than she is about this little boy.

Usually, I see a wrong, and if I can right it, I do. This time, I'm just torn clean down the middle. I truly don't know what would be best for this child and is it my business in the first place??? F*CK!!! I don't know what to do. I'll wait for more input. You guys always help me put things in perspective.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 9:05 pm

I would step in. If it were my bar Id tell them not to bring him in. Period. He deserves a chance at a decent life. Not much hope for him like that. There are people out there that would love to have an opportunity to nurture a child. 5 isnt too late, another year and who knows. I would get involved myself. Doesnt matter about them. Hes just in their way anyway.

valerie · Post by **valerie** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 9:09 pm

Right now I'd like to see more input, too.

I'm just sad because little kids are so important to all of us. I never

wanted any of my own, true, but I love them and care about them and

when I hear about something like this it gets me.

And then thinking of him in foster care and all the horror stories you hear

about that...

Does he at least look clothed and fed and clean and stuff?

I'll talk at ya later... I'm off to bed. I gotta de-stress.

Poor little boy.

mominiowa · Post by **mominiowa** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 9:10 pm

Oh man....Thats tough--but I would have to say I'd call..My brother and sister in law have tried for so many years to have a baby and the wait for a new born in crazy..If he is taken and rights would be terminated - that age group are wanted more and more to be adopted..Ok I know I am getting way ahead of myself..But I always hated that too--We had a grandma that brought her newborn grand baby in -in the stroller and the drunks were always a slobbering on her and all I could think was --if this child isn't sick -the smoke and slobbers from Joe Blow will get it that way--We finally said NO kids -plain and simple after 5 pm....Good Luck!

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 9:10 pm

I don't have the authority to tell them not to bring him in. I've spoken with the owner about it and she says her dad did the same thing with her. He brought her to the bar he owned at the time and she grew up that way, and look at her now. A multi-millionaire. Thing is, she's 82, and when she was a child, things were WAAAAAY different than they are now. She has more interest in the welfare of her bank account than the welfare of this child.

Please, keep the input coming, gang. I know what my heart is saying, I just need to hear more suggestions.

Peg · Post by **Peg** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 11:04 pm

WOW! Tough call. I am not much for seeing a child taken away from their family except in extreme cases. I think this is one of them. Are they driving with this child in a vehicle after drinking all day? Is he eating actual food while he is there? Poor guy needs to be outdoors getting fresh air, not in some smokey old bar. What have other customers said? Do you know anyone that might offer to watch him a few hours a day? You could always call anonymously and pretend to be a customer there. Maybe a visit from Children's Services will be enough to make them realize this just isn't right.:-1

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 11:11 pm

Peg wrote: WOW! Tough call. I am not much for seeing a child taken away from their family except in extreme cases. I think this is one of them. Are they driving with this child in a vehicle after drinking all day? Is he eating actual food while he is there? Poor guy needs to be outdoors getting fresh air, not in some smokey old bar. What have other customers said? Do you know anyone that might offer to watch him a few hours a day? You could always call anonymously and pretend to be a customer there. Maybe a visit from Children's Services will be enough to make them realize this just isn't right.:-1
They do drive home with him when they are drunk. He gets food while he's there, we feed him chicken tenders and fries and stuff.

Maybe a call is in order....anonymously.

Peg · Post by **Peg** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 1:24 am

I'd have to call. :-1 As hard as it is, it may save his life.

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 2:27 am

If they drive drunk with him in the car.... you have an obligation to make a call.

If there is smoking in the bar,, nowdays, that is abuse.

Kids did hang out in bars, years ago. In my moms time.

My mother raised my nephew from the time he was an infant. Hes 18 now. My sister and her "Man" were life long drug attics. They are both deceased. The child is 18. Of course its wonderful, and was a tremendous sacrifice, for my mother to raise him. But guess what? He has major problems also. And I can assure you mom didnt bring him to a bar. He was raised like a baby bird. Excellent care.

So the boy you describe has many strikes against him. It is very, very, sad.

If social services stepped in and he had the chance to be raised in a different home.. maybe he would have a chance. But more than likely, his parents still have rights. So even if he went into foster care he would probably be bounced back and forth. The call would be to take him out of imminent danger.

Stupid, Bastard, iggnorant adults.

By the way... my sons spent time at the bar, when they were young, at a nice restaurant I worked in. I wasnt drinking, I was working. They would sit at the bar and my friends.. the bartenders and waitresses would serve them dinner like little kings, on white cloth napkins. Then I would send them to the movies across the street, until I got off. They loved it, and they met many different people I knew.

So, Im not prudish. The scenario you describe sounds horrible, and dangerous.

People like you,are the kind of people who should be behind bars. Responsible, and caring. Not only laughing, and serving booze... but keeping their eyes opened and observing what goes on. Your owner.. millionaire or not, sounds like an idiot without a conscience. Or just burned out. Losing the guaranteed bucks spent by the disgusting grandparents, is more important than saving the child.

Makes me sick.

cars · Post by **cars** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 2:41 am

Peg wrote: WOW! Tough call. I am not much for seeing a child taken away from their family except in extreme cases. I think this is one of them. Are they driving with this child in a vehicle after drinking all day? Is he eating actual food while he is there? Poor guy needs to be outdoors getting fresh air, not in some smokey old bar. What have other customers said? Do you know anyone that might offer to watch him a few hours a day? You could always call anonymously and pretend to be a customer there. Maybe a visit from Children's Services will be enough to make them realize this just isn't right.:-1

Yeah, what Peg said.

But here's a devious side thought. (Thinking outside of the box)

Once DCS gets involved, things get very serious, & it's very probable that this poor Grandson will not have only lost his parents, but now also his Grandparents as well. So here comes the devious part. Do you know anyone who could "impersonate" themselves as being from the DCS who could pay a visit to these Grandparents, "while they're "in-the'bar", saying DCS got a complaint of child abuse with a little boy always being in this bar. This way, the Grandparents just may get the bijeasus scared out of them (if thy're not too drunk) and improve the situation. Because once DCS gets involved, there's no turning back, no matter had sad the situation turns out. Most likely once DCS did gets involved, from what you have said the situation is, this little boy will be going to "foster care"!

PS: since this little boy is now 5, won't he be starting to go to "School" for a few hours a day, 5 days a week? That should make a little better for him. And if they don't change, as for the Drunk driving thing, anonymously alert the cops to wait outside the bar for these two loosers.

saffy · Post by **saffy** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 3:05 am

It's a very difficult situation to be in, like a previous poster I don't agree with removing a child from their environment willy nilly. Instead the relevant services should be there to help the family and provide support.

I'm not sure about the USA but do you have a department which is like our (UK) social serives or the NSPCC you could advice from?

It might be as simple a case as that they need proper parenting classes to show them the error of their ways?..one would like to hope so anyway.

But as for the drunk driving then it's definitely out of order..i'm surprised that the police haven't been called before about it.

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 3:22 am

not only do you have to call dept. of children and families, you have to ride herd on their butts to make sure the kid is put into foster care. this is a crime. period. no waffling about, this kid is being abused, neglected and endangered. and you don't need our permission to do it. if you were a doctor or nurse or teacher or cop you would be mandated to make the call. as it is, your conscience is mandating you.

pantsonfire321@aol.com · Sat Apr 15, 2006 5:43 am

I reported my neighbour she was a drunk/ druggie village bike she would leave her son (2,1/2) home alone and go off to the pub . I approached social service's... they didnt take the child straight away it was only after more allegations came to light . The child was only put into foster care after she got drunk and lamped a policeman then we found out that not only was she leaving him home alone she was drugging him with Rrohipnol (not sure of spelling) which she had priscribed on private presription .The kid now lives with his father and new wife the bitch gets him weekends and holidays,she knows i'm watching her and and we have CCTV so she won't chance it again .I did get alot of flack because of it... the woman was a nasty bitch so my advice would be ..if in doubt make the call and let somebody else make that decision. good luck..

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 1:40 pm

You guys have helped me make up my mind. I cannot, in good conscience, leave this kid to suffer anymore. On Monday morning, I will be calling the police to see what can be done.

By the way, what does everyone think of cars suggestion to have someone "impersonate" a CPS officer? Just might be enough to scare them into changing their selfish, stupid, drunken ways.

saffy · Post by **saffy** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 1:42 pm

Isn't it illegal to impersonate a figure of authority?

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 1:45 pm

agreed. bad idea. you can get shot that way.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 1:46 pm

saffy wrote: Isn't it illegal to impersonate a figure of authority?
Probably. But I'd still like the opinions on the idea. I've got plenty of people who don't really fear the repurcussions of impersonating a person in authority.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 1:47 pm

lady cop wrote: agreed. bad idea. you can get shot that way.
By whom? It's not like he'd be impersonating a cop...or is it? Need your advice here, LC.

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 1:49 pm

DCF people aren't real popular either, they usually don't bring good news. their job can be dangerous sometimes. also, what if they ask for ID? and you know they will phone DCF right away. in my opinion BR, call DCF and report it, not the cops. they need a crime in progress.

saffy · Post by **saffy** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 1:51 pm

If it was just a prank then fair enough though I still wouldn't recommend it but this is a child who needs help and support.

He is the priority, putting the frighteners on his gaurdians to behave appropriately in public is all well and good but what will happen 'behind closed doors'?

Things like this situation need to be addressed, the relevant authorities need to know and the child needs a bit of TLC.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 1:51 pm

lady cop wrote: DCF people aren't real popular either, they usually don't bring good news. their job can be dangerous sometimes. also, what if they ask for ID? and you know they will phone DCF right away. in my opinion BR, call DCF and report it, not the cops. they need a crime in progress.
Then that's what I'll do. I knew I should have done it all along, I just needed to hear people say it was right to get involved. This IS a child we're talking about, and he deserves better.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 1:53 pm

saffy wrote: If it was just a prank then fair enough though I still wouldn't recommend it but this is a child who needs help and support.

He is the priority, putting the frighteners on his gaurdians to behave appropriately in public is all well and good but what will happen 'behind closed doors'?

Things like this situation need to be addressed, the relevant authorities need to know and the child needs a bit of TLC.
You're right. I don't want a prank, I want a solution. And this poor baby in a better place.

cars · Post by **cars** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 11:06 pm

Still no one has addressed the issue of this child finally going to "School" 5 days a week for several hours each day, starting end of Aug or early Sept, now that he is 5. :-2 That would take the child out of the every day constant bar scene.

Side question BR, have you ever seen "bruses" on the boy? If yes, than call DCS.

PIXIECHICK35 · Post by **PIXIECHICK35** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 4:49 am

I worked for child protective services once....these are not bad people. This is my question....What the hell kind of people take a child into a bar????? That is disgusting. The certainly don't have the childs best interest at heart. This is NOT a normal situation for a child. It sounds to me that the grandparents are not much better than the parents themselves. Perhaps he would have a much better chance at a normal life, free of the constant influence of alchohol, if he was removed. I feel bad for that child. If these people take him out in public and act that way, imagine what his home life must be like. It makes me ill. My opinion....Make the call.

CARLA · Post by **CARLA** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 11:19 am

BR, it is simple make the call this child is being abused in every sense of the word. I'm a grandma of a 7 year old, taking her to a bar for chirst sake would never be an options period, just not what good parenting would allow you to do in this day and age.

This baby is 5 she must be in pre-school or kindergarten or have they neglected to enroll her in school as well. Lot of red flag here and they are as LC stated breaking the law period.

Don't feel bad about making the call it has to be done and now is the time.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 11:34 am

BR, it is simple make the call this child is being abused in every sense of the word. I'm a grandma of a 7 year old, taking her to a bar for chirst sake would never be an options period, just not what good parenting would allow you to do in this day and age.

This baby is 5 she must be in pre-school or kindergarten or have they neglected to enroll her in school as well. Lot of red flag here and they are as LC stated breaking the law period.

Don't feel bad about making the call it has to be done and now is the time

cars · Post by **cars** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:04 am

So BR, I'm sure curiosity has the best of most of us, what did you decide to do today? :-2

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:32 am

cars wrote: So BR, I'm sure curiosity has the best of most of us, what did you decide to do today? :-2
I knew someone would ask....

When I got to work yesterday, there sat grandma and grandpa, getting sloshed, but no Charlie. Apparently they got a sitter so they could come to the bar and watch the game. Of course, they went home drunk.

What do you all think I did?

Of course, I called. I went online to find Child Protective Services, and told them I was a customer at a local bar and had been witnessing this child, being subjected to hours upon hours of this smoky, dingy bar surrounded by drunks, getting more attention from the staff than his own grandparents. I gave them the real names of the customers and the baby, and asked to remain anonymous. I gave them the times they were usually there, and when it was most likely that Charlie would be with them. (Sundays they seem to not bring him at all, at least he gets one day a week off.)

I was told that I would not be able to get further updates on the case if I wanted to stay anonymous and if I were to call back for progress reports, they'd need my real name. I am hesitant to do that, because it could mean my job.

I will wait and see what happens in the bar, and if I can't get action to be taken, I will push it further. Now it's a wait-and-see type of thing. I'll keep you guys updated as I know more.

Thanks again for helping give my conscience the nudge over the edge that it needed. Like I said, I knew what had to be done, I just needed to hear someone else say it, too.

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:34 am

good for you Baby. stay on it. i know you will. ((((HUG))))

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:36 am

PS...by law, they have to investigate within 24 hours. hell, if you're worried, write me, i'll make the call.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:40 am

lady cop wrote: PS...by law, they have to investigate within 24 hours. hell, if you're worried, write me, i'll make the call.
If I need reinforcements on this one, you'll be the first one I call. I told them they would not have Charlie tonight, because they run the shuffleboard league, and he's never there for that, but he would definitely be there tomorrow. On MY shift.

Don't they want to catch them red-handed? Or will they come in asking questions or what? Do you know what the procedure from here will be like, LC?

chonsigirl · Post by **chonsigirl** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:41 am

BR, does Charlie go to school, maybe Kinder? You can always call the school counselor, they can make the call also to Protective Services, if you want to remain anonymous.

DesignerGal · Post by **DesignerGal** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:43 am

CALL!!!!

How will you feel when those drunks crash on the way home and kill him?

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:46 am

BabyRider wrote: If I need reinforcements on this one, you'll be the first one I call. I told them they would not have Charlie tonight, because they run the shuffleboard league, and he's never there for that, but he would definitely be there tomorrow. On MY shift.

Don't they want to catch them red-handed? Or will they come in asking questions or what? Do you know what the procedure from here will be like, LC?DCF will investigate. they will come in and ask questions. if they don't, tell me. then give me a px number. i will give them my name and badge number. you just mail me the details. they do not need to catch them red-handed, they just need sworn affidavits. but if they walk in the bar and that baby is there, then they'll be arrested as well as investigated. it's all good.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:49 am

lady cop wrote: DCF will investigate. they will come in and ask questions. if they don't, tell me. then give me a px number. i will give them my name and badge number. you just mail me the details. they do not need to catch them red-handed, they just need sworn affidavits. but if they walk in the bar and that baby is there, then they'll be arrested as well as investigated. it's all good.
Excellent! I'm going to email you the px of the bar, my px, and the real names of the people involved. What else do you want? I am pretty sure, by the way they sounded that action of some kind was going to be taken quickly, they don't mess around when it comes to kids, that's for damn sure.

If DCF comes in and asks me point blank about it, and I pretend I knew nothing about the report, my boss can't do squat about me telling the truth. Actually, I hope they DO come and ask me questions.

DesignerGal · Post by **DesignerGal** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:52 am

Sorry...I see you did. Didnt read the thread all the way through. My bad...sorry everyone.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:54 am

DesignerGal wrote: Sorry...I see you did. Didnt read the thread all the way through. My bad...sorry everyone.

That's ok DG. Seems it was pretty much unanimous, you just got your vote in late! :yh_bigsmi

I'll keep the thread updated as I learn what's going on with the case. I hope I get to update you all soon.

Rapunzel · Post by **Rapunzel** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 4:26 pm

I'm glad you phoned BR. As others have said, they're endangering this child by leaving him in a smoky bar, by driving drunk with him and by leaving him alone when they're sleeping it off next day and when he, like most kids, is probably up at dawn! And spending the day unsupervised and probably unfed!

Even having a friend to put the frighteners on them would probably have only driven them to hide their woes in drink! At least this kid has a chance of a better life away from them! If they're sleeping it off each day he probably doesn't even go to school as they would never be up in time.

Could you get a mate to report them for you also, then she/he could use their real name and check up on him?

I'm so glad you phoned them BR!

Pat on the back for you, it was a difficult decision!

And *BuMp* for this thread!

Peg · Post by **Peg** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 5:14 pm

I'm sure it couldn't have been an easy call for you to make. Just remember, you may have just saved this child's life. Let's hope they system works.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 5:16 pm

Peg wrote: I'm sure it couldn't have been an easy call for you to make. Just remember, you may have just saved this child's life. Let's hope they system works.
You know what, Peg? At first it was hard. But now, after reading about your situation, it makes it easier, because this is something I CAN do something about.

Keep our fingers crossed that the system does right by this boy.

Richard Bell · Post by **Richard Bell** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 7:41 pm

BabyRider wrote: If DCF comes in and asks me point blank about it, and I pretend I knew nothing about the report, my boss can't do squat about me telling the truth.

I don't know what it's like in your jurisdiction, BR, but here's what would happen here in Ontario:

1. The law states that any suspected child abuse must be reported to the authorities. This is not an option. As several have already stated, a smoke filled bar and a drunk driver are definitely forms of abuse.

A couple of years ago, I called the Childrens' Aid and the police on a guy who rode his three year old son on his bicycle handlebars past my house every morning, even on icy, snowy days. They took care of it.

2. Children under a certain height and weight (I don't know offhand what the limits are, but it most certainly covers a five year old) must be seated and belted in an age appropriate car seat while riding in a vehicle. I'm guessing gran & gramps probably neglected that, too.

3. If an employee of a licensed establishment put his/her employment in jeopardy by blowing the whistle on an illegal act, the Liquor License Board of Ontario would be on the bar owner like a ton of bricks, and their liquor license would be revoked. I certainly hope the mercenary old dolly that owns your bar is subjected to similar rules.

Congratulations on Doing The Right Thing.

R.B.

CARLA · Post by **CARLA** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 8:11 pm

BR, you did the right thing good for you BRAVO !@!

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 10:06 pm

Richard Bell wrote: I don't know what it's like in your jurisdiction, BR, but here's what would happen here in Ontario:

1. The law states that any suspected child abuse must be reported to the authorities. This is not an option. As several have already stated, a smoke filled bar and a drunk driver are definitely forms of abuse.

A couple of years ago, I called the Childrens' Aid and the police on a guy who rode his three year old son on his bicycle handlebars past my house every morning, even on icy, snowy days. They took care of it.

2. Children under a certain height and weight (I don't know offhand what the limits are, but it most certainly covers a five year old) must be seated and belted in an age appropriate car seat while riding in a vehicle. I'm guessing gran & gramps probably neglected that, too.

3. If an employee of a licensed establishment put his/her employment in jeopardy by blowing the whistle on an illegal act, the Liquor License Board of Ontario would be on the bar owner like a ton of bricks, and their liquor license would be revoked. I certainly hope the mercenary old dolly that owns your bar is subjected to similar rules.

Congratulations on Doing The Right Thing.

R.B.
Richard, I believe that many of those laws are in place here, as well. I know the car seat one is, and it's for any child under 60 pounds. This little guy probably weighs in at 35 or 40.

I have made this my mission right now. I will see this poor kid have a better life if it's possible. Whatever I have to do, even if it means coming out that it was me who did it, I don't care. People don't get involved in the welfare of our children enough as it is. I preach about righting wrongs when I see them, well, dammit, here's a wrong I may be able to fix. If I can, I will.

Thank you so much for all the encouragement. I expected nothing less from this fine group of people. You're all awesome. :-4