Who is right?

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 10:27 am

Okay......you have muslims. Allah and Mohammed his prophet. The devotion served to this religion is incomparable. They share the same holy ground as the other big two.

Judaism. These guys just have God. Their messiah has yet to appear. But they have the distinction of being the 'apple of God's eye'. They were the first to pen the Torah. They have been persecuted throughout their long, ancient history. They share many prophets and such with their muslim neighbors. Jews proclaim themselves the sons of Isaac, and muslims, the sons of Ishmael.

Then you have the Christians. They have God and Jesus the Christ. Branch off the old olive tree. (judaism) Writers of the new testament. Persecuted throughout its relative short history.

All three worship the same God. Only the messiah issue is different. They all come from the same patriarch, Abraham.

So who is right? Or can we all be?

Blackjack · Post by **Blackjack** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 10:33 am

Sentential logic: We can all be wrong, that is quite possible. But, sadly, we can't all be right. I would have been happy to explain this to Lessing while he was writing his Three Ring Parable had I been around at the time.

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 10:39 am

Mans search for the truth. If the three main religions are wrong, then where can we find the truth? And if there IS no truth........what the heck are we searching for?

Blackjack · Post by **Blackjack** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 10:45 am

Maybe one of them is right but at most one. If that's hard to swallow, keep in mind what C.S. Lewis said: "There can only be one correct answer to a sum, but some wrong answers are closer to the right answer than others."

And it's also possible for the truth to simply remain unknown. As it quite often does.

Sheryl · Post by **Sheryl** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 10:45 am

Raven wrote: Mans search for the truth. If the three main religions are wrong, then where can we find the truth? And if there IS no truth........what the heck are we searching for?

Happiness, self-worth.

Richard Bell · Post by **Richard Bell** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 11:11 am

Raven wrote:

So who is right?

None of the above .

Bob is right . All hail his Slackness !

"Slack-filled young men and women of Yeti descent who are spread, SEEMINGLY randomly, throughout the breakthinking world... but are bent on breaching all Earthly human political and cultural barriers with the searing nonhuman truth of the Word of "Bob": J.R. "Bob" Dobbs, that LIVING GOD WHO WALKS THIS PLANET EARTH IN HUCKSTER'S SHOES."

http://www.subgenius.com

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 5:14 pm

There is no problem with the point that all three could be correct.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 5:36 pm

Far Rider:-6

I greatly appreciate your second last paragraph. re every religion. How correct I think you are on that one.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Christofer · Post by **Christofer** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 6:24 am

All three share the same God? I would challenge this in the sense of what is taught.

Jews have it written that they are to take an eye for an eye -

Exodus 21:23-25 - you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

Muslims are told to kill - 9.014 "Fight them (infidels) and Allah will punish them by your (muslims) hands" 9.052 ""Allah will afflict you (infidels) with punishment from himself (Allah) or by our(muslims) hands"

But Christians are told -

Matthew 5:39 and Luke 6:16 -Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

the concept may appear to be the same God - but only Christians are told - commanded even - to not hit back - not take revenge - and in fact - this was demonstrated by Jesus - Stephen - and the Apostles and their deaths... of course - most Christians do not follow this teaching - as seen in war - personal conflict - and our entertainment - like boxing - wrestling - video games - movies...

Same God? I can't believe it.

The true God commands us to LOVE - even our enemies !

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:59 am

[quote=Far Rider]God is right, everyone else is just trying to figure out what God said.

The Muslums have a great faith in a god that they made up to be like Israel. The Muslum religion was robbed by unsrupulaous men who have turned it into a lie.

Israel failed to see Messiah when he came and are still caught in a cycle of blindness.

The christians saw Messiah, worshipped him in truth, but broke into religious denominational fighting that has seperated the ones who hold the truth so much that none of them work for the common goal of Christ. And sadly many have fallen so far from the truth that they dont even accept the basic tennents of scripture.

I agree.

But I also think if you really want to know God, you have to go to the people who knew Him first.

The jews have such WONDERFUL and insightful literature! For example, the book Congregation. It is a compilation of various jewish authors, writing essays on the books of the old testament.

Sven · Post by **Sven** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 8:39 pm

None of them are "right". All their literature was written by humans. And I agree with the point that some of it is wonderful and makes some good points on morality, philosophy and law. But that's all it is. An attempt of pre-scientific societies to deal with these issues and organise society. If you want to believe in God, fine, but nowadays I'm afraid he's irrelevant. Those who say they lead good godly lives but do not adhere to any particular branch of organised religion are not Christians, Jews or Muslims I'm afraid. These religions do not allow you to pick and choose particular parts of text you can agree with to lead a morally consistent lives and ignore the rest. They are highly hierarchical non-democratic organisations whose leaders claim to have a mandate from god directly. Modern secular society has rules in place which are in part based on some these ancient texts, without the need for a benevolent all-knowing being, just as it has taken some guidelines from other pre-scientific cultures like Roman law and the Law of Nature from the western middle ages. Either god is benevolent and forgiving in which case it does not matter whether or not you believe in him (i.e. he is irrelevant) or he is a vindictive bigamist who only favours a particular section of society or race in which case it does not matter whether other people believe in him because you are part of the chosen ones anyway. Converting others is not going to make him more powerful.

memebias · Post by **memebias** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 4:34 pm

Christofer wrote:

Same God? I can't believe it.

The true God commands us to LOVE - even our enemies !

You'd expect some originality from a god wouldn't you?

How shall I defend myself against an enemy? By being good and kind towards him

Diogenes (c412-323 BCE)

Someone gets angry with you. Challenge him with kindness in return.

Seneca (4 BCE -65 CE)

Who holds the ethical high ground here? Followers of the 'true God' who expect a reward for their efforts to love their enemies, (Luke 6:35) or the pagans who only reward was in the action itself?

Christofer · Post by **Christofer** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 5:02 pm

I don't think of salvation as a reward - it is a gift of grace! The pleasure of following Jesus is rewarding within itself - the only reward IS in the action itself. I am not claiming ALL or even MOST Christians are doing what they should, but true Christianity as Christ taught is not much like what we have today. Ancient philosophers may also come to similar conclusions, but doesn't it make sense that they would come to the same conclusions? There is only one truth - regardless of who speaks it.

memebias · Post by **memebias** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 5:55 pm

Christofer wrote: I don't think of salvation as a reward - it is a gift of grace! The pleasure of following Jesus is rewarding within itself - the only reward IS in the action itself.

But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest:

I am not claiming ALL or even MOST Christians are doing what they should, but true Christianity as Christ taught is not much like what we have today.

A classic No True Scotsman argument. Who decides what 'true' Christianity is? Or even what a 'true' Christian is?

Is a man a 'true' Christian if he decides that the examples of intolerance towards non-believers in the bible carry greater moral weight than the morality of tolerance preached in "...love ye your enemies"?

Ancient philosophers may also come to similar conclusions, but doesn't it make sense that they would come to the same conclusions? There is only one truth - regardless of who speaks it.

As I said, you'd think the moral precepts of a god would at least show some signs of originality.

Christofer · Post by **Christofer** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 7:29 am

I thought the question was - 'Is salvation a reward?' -

There is a 'reward' mentioned with concern to loving your enemy, but it isn't identified as 'salvation' as far as I know.

A classic No True Scotsman argument. Who decides what 'true' Christianity is? Or even what a 'true' Christian is?

I suppose God will decide what a true Christian is - but until then - we have to live by what is written to define a Christian - which means we also have to rely on interpretation. While what I say is just my opinion - you can believe that I believe what I am saying about

As I said, you'd think the moral precepts of a god would at least show some signs of originality.

You would think - but as I said - truth is truth... the grass is green whether a gardener or a plumber tells you it is green - ya know?

memebias · Post by **memebias** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 2:05 pm

There is a 'reward' mentioned with concern to loving your enemy, but it isn't identified as 'salvation' as far as I know.

Not the point. The point is the pagans who also developed this philosophy didnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t mention a reward of any kind. Their beliefs were not as dominated by the idea of reward/punishment as we find in Christianity.

I suppose God will decide what a true Christian is - but until then - we have to live by what is written to define a Christian - which means we also have to rely on interpretation. While what I say is just my opinion - you can believe that I believe what I am saying about.

And with 20,000 plus Christian denominations, all claiming to be the true way to god, there are going to be a lot a disappointed people who think they are Christians come judgement day.

You would think - but as I said - truth is truth... the grass is green whether a gardener or a plumber tells you it is green - ya know?

If this self evident truth is the way god wants you to act, do you think itÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s a reasonable way to live life?

Christofer · Post by **Christofer** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 7:13 pm

The point is the pagans who also developed this philosophy didnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t mention a reward of any kind.

Perhaps that was one of the reasons God HAD to send His Son? Someone had to set the world straight!

there are going to be a lot a disappointed people who think they are Christians come judgement day.

But it won't just be people who think they are Christian but aren't - we will also find people of all faiths - confused - and wondering how they missed it...

If this self evident truth is the way god wants you to act, do you think itÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s a reasonable way to live life?

If it is what God wants - it is the only true Way to live, in my opinion. If you believe in Jesus and follow Him as best as you can - striving to be more like Him all the time - then it is certainly a good life to live!

Post by **spot** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 7:47 pm

Christofer wrote: But it won't just be people who think they are Christian but aren't - we will also find people of all faiths - confused - and wondering how they missed it...That seems an accurate reflection of Christian thinking, that the only way to the Father is through the Son. It seems commonplace in Islam too that Paradise is reserved solely for its adherents. One of the attractions of Judaism is that there is far more reference there to the righteous of all nations entering the world to come, and that dogmatic belief is far less evident than simple interested speculation.

Nobody has mentioned the fourth Abrahamic religion, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It's only been going for a couple of hundred years, but it's quite distinct from the other three. The Mormons, like the Jews, proclaim the resurrection of all, not just their own followers.

You can ask to become a Mormon, a Christian or a Muslim. It's far harder (though, depending on who you ask, possible) to become a Jew.

Christofer · Post by **Christofer** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 8:47 pm

But of all the religions - so few people simply follow the command to love others - especially our enemies....

the only ones I can think of from the 20th century are Ghandi and Martin Luther King - Im sure there are others - but how many - a dozen? over a hundred years? - pickings are slim!

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 8:58 pm

Christofer wrote: But of all the religions - so few people simply follow the command to love others - especially our enemies....

the only ones I can think of from the 20th century are Ghandi and Martin Luther King - Im sure there are others - but how many - a dozen? over a hundred years? - pickings are slim!
I'm coming into this conversation quite late, mainly because I don't normally get involved in religious debate; I don't know enough about it.

My reasons for coming in now are two-fold:

Welcome to FG, Christofer, nice to have you here!!!

I have to wonder at your wording above: "simply follow the command to love others"....I have a hard time being commanded to do a damn thing, especially love anyone, even more especially, love my enemies.

Not to mention, why does it have to be an icon? Why can't it be everyday people such as many here who suggest and follow that ideal every day?

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 9:01 pm

I cannot agree with Sven at all.

I think what is quite evident that some folks are generally unaware of modern theology. Some things I read here have been dismissed some time ago.

Christopher:-6 You are correct about love and following Jesus example.

As a Christian pluralist I accept the validity of all faiths as man's search for God. Jesus gave us the Great Commandment. I do not see how one can declare themselves a Christian and yet ignore that commandment. I would certainly be interested in an explanation. It might help me understand.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Christofer · Post by **Christofer** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 9:11 pm

I have to wonder at your wording above: "simply follow the command to love others"....I have a hard time being commanded to do a damn thing, especially love anyone, even more especially, love my enemies.

I hear ya - BabyRider - it can be difficult - but as far as it being a command - He is my master - so its natural to follow His commands - I can see how it would be tough to relate to the obedience if you aren't trying to follow Him.

Not to mention, why does it have to be an icon? Why can't it be everyday people such as many here who suggest and follow that ideal every day?

Its supposed to be everyday people living the ideal - but Jesus is the greatest example I know of concerning the ideal - thus - the icon -

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 9:24 pm

Christofer:

An excellent response. One might also consider Matt. 25:31ff as well.

Shalom

Ted:-6

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 10:26 pm

Christofer wrote: I hear ya - BabyRider - it can be difficult - but as far as it being a command - He is my master - so its natural to follow His commands - I can see how it would be tough to relate to the obedience if you aren't trying to follow Him.
I am my own master, which is why you and I see this differently. Blind obedience isn't something I can relate to, (and I don't bash anyone who can accept it) and I don't believe I need anyone to command me on how to live my life. I try to be an honest, upstanding person. My belief is that a person's walk with God is strictly personal and not to be doled out as command by any religion or person. If it works for you, go with it. I'm not here to squash your beliefs.

Christofer wrote: Its supposed to be everyday people living the ideal - but Jesus is the greatest example I know of concerning the ideal - thus - the icon -

The greatest examples I have are the people I surround myself with, and my family. (Well, some of them anyway. :yh_eyebro ) Just an observation, don't you see everyday people, NOT involved in any organized religion or preaching an obedience to God living this way? Any at all? Outside your circle, I mean. Just debate and discussion here, I want to be very clear that I am not jumping on your beliefs.

Christofer · Post by **Christofer** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 5:27 am

Blind obedience isn't something I can relate to, (and I don't bash anyone who can accept it) and I don't believe I need anyone to command me on how to live my life.

My obedience isn't really blind though. It does take a leap of faith to begin, but once you have begun, you see much more than you did. However blind my faith was in the beginning, it is full of vision now (Praise the Lord). Like you though - I understand and appreciate your personal position. I know of many who seem to be doing great without God, so who am I to judge? Not everyone will accept the teachings of Jesus.

Just an observation, don't you see everyday people, NOT involved in any organized religion or preaching an obedience to God living this way? Any at all? Outside your circle, I mean. Just debate and discussion here, I want to be very clear that I am not jumping on your beliefs.

Of course I do, in fact - I don't belong to any formal organization either. Jesus is an icon for the religion, but to me, He is alive and well and working with us daily. Look at Ghandi - he was more 'Christian' than any Christian I know - and he was Hindu! The point is, men like Ghandi make me pause on passing judgement about a person - after all - that's God's job.

Still, there is always a soul out there looking for 'something' - and I am hoping that I can show them the One who had the 'something' I was looking for. It isn't about going to church, or following priests, or even reading the Bible - per-say - it's about opening a door to the Messiah.

I appreciate your patience with me as we chatter back and forth, there is enough bashing out there to fill a billion pages -

memebias · Post by **memebias** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 2:53 pm

Christofer wrote: Perhaps that was one of the reasons God HAD to send His Son? Someone had to set the world straight!

So one of the reasons someone had to be nailed to a piece of wood is because humans have all by themselves come up with the flawed idea of pacifism in the face of physical aggression. Interesting notion.

But it won't just be people who think they are Christian but aren't - we will also find people of all faiths - confused - and wondering how they missed it...

How did we miss it? IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ve been told countless times by many believers that the reason I do not believe is because I canÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t see their Ã¢â‚¬ËœtruthÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ or wonÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t see their Ã¢â‚¬ËœtruthÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ because I have used my freewill to deliberately deny the existence of their god.

How could this be? It would have been the easiest thing in the world for god to have created humanity without the ability to deny him if he truly wanted everyone to be saved.

If it is what God wants - it is the only true Way to live, in my opinion.

Astonishing how many of the participants in the last World War, although invoking god on every possible occasion didnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t follow this ideal.

Do you really think turning the other cheek was a sane policy for the British in 1939? Or the Americans in 1941? Both nations with a long christian heritage. Turning the other cheek is not a safe option for long term survival.

You mention Ghandi and King as successful examples of the Ã¢â‚¬Å“turn the other cheekÃ¢â‚¬Â tactic in action. LetÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s put this in perspective. The campaigns of these individuals were conducted against two democratic societies, both with a generally reasonable track record regarding human rights.

How successful do you think Ghandi or King would have been if they were fighting against a totalitarian regime? How long before they were transported to a gulag or gas chamber?

Turning the other cheek only works if your enemy is likely to stop punching you into a pulp at some stage.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:01 pm

Christofer wrote: Still, there is always a soul out there looking for 'something' - and I am hoping that I can show them the One who had the 'something' I was looking for. It isn't about going to church, or following priests, or even reading the Bible - per-say - it's about opening a door to the Messiah.

I totally agree that there are many out there, looking for that "something." If you can help them find it, more power to you. I also agree that it's not about church, or any of the other things you said. Again, a person's walk with God is a personal, private one. I like that you don't belong to any organized religion. (Not that that's any of my business.)

Christofer wrote:

I appreciate your patience with me as we chatter back and forth, there is enough bashing out there to fill a billion pages -

As I appreciate yours. You're absolutely right. :yh_peace

Jives · Post by **Jives** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:09 pm

Great answer, Far. I did a little research on Mohammad once. Turns out he started on a street corner, but couldn't get any attention. So he and his little band went out in the desert and became highway robbers. They robbed enough caravans to become bloodthirsty conquerors. Their first target? His old home town. He ruthlessly sacked, burned, and looted it. That's an oversimplification of the events, but it's close to the mark on behavior.

I'm pretty sure that anyone following this guy is an idiot.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 4:34 pm

Blackjack wrote: Maybe one of them is right but at most one. If that's hard to swallow, keep in mind what C.S. Lewis said: "There can only be one correct answer to a sum, but some wrong answers are closer to the right answer than others."

And it's also possible for the truth to simply remain unknown. As it quite often does.

C.S. Lewis may have been a wonderful author, philosopher and theologan but no mathimatician - just consider a quadratic equasion.

It's equally possible that God is so much greater than us that we each only see a portion of the truth.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 4:46 pm

Bryn Mawr wrote: It's equally possible that God is so much greater than us that we each only see a portion of the truth.

Oh, wow. I really like that Bryn.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 4:53 pm

BabyRider wrote: Oh, wow. I really like that Bryn.

At your service maam

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 6:20 pm

Bryn Mawr wrote: At your service maam
No humbleness necessary, Bryn. You said something succinct and eloquent. I appreciate succinct and eloquent.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 7:26 pm

I don't know about that. The Bible is very clear in many places that humility is part of the Christian way. Micah 6:8 for one.

Shalom

Ted:-6

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 7:33 pm

Ted wrote: I don't know about that. The Bible is very clear in many places that humility is part of the Christian way. Micah 6:8 for one.

Shalom

Ted:-6
While I appreciate all the scripture you're constantly quoting, (read: spewing) I was referring to Bryn being humble towards me. I don't deserve any humbleness from anyone, as I am no better than she.

So take your sanctimonious intrusion and stuff it.

God, I hate superior attitudes. Blech.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 7:39 pm

BabyRider:-6

All Christians are called to be humble. We are all called to be servants as well, in one way or another.

I find it hard to believe that a Christian would knock another for quoting scripture. That indeed is a puzzle.

As far as it being a superior attitude; not on my part. If the shoe doesn't fit then don't wear it. I am but a humble servant of my Lord the risen One.

Anyway as you wish.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Sven · Post by **Sven** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 10:15 pm

Ted wrote: I cannot agree with Sven at all.

Fair enough.

Ted wrote: I think what is quite evident that some folks are generally unaware of modern theology. Some things I read here have been dismissed some time ago.

Which things are you talking about? And they have been dismissed by whom exactly?

Ted wrote: Jesus gave us the Great Commandment.

Which commandment is that? And how did Jesus give you (and the rest of us) this commandment? In other words, what is your belief in Jesus Christ and, maybe more importantly, the contents of his message based on? Some ancient texts of dubious authorship? An interpretation of historic facts by third parties with their own agendas? Even if you hold the (highly contested) view that the gospels were written by apostles, the closest to Jesus you get are some people who used to hang out with him. Keep the message of mutual respect, dump the personalities. God is irrelevant unless you personally need the concept to be able to live your life like that because some other people told you to or maybe because you have sociopathic tendencies. Peoples and cultures without monotheistic belief systems had come up with what you call his message as a working model for interpersonal relationships ages before Jesus came on the scene and alledgedly repeated what others had come up with before him.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 12:32 am

Ted wrote: BabyRider:-6

All Christians are called to be humble. We are all called to be servants as well, in one way or another.

I find it hard to believe that a Christian would knock another for quoting scripture. That indeed is a puzzle.

As far as it being a superior attitude; not on my part. If the shoe doesn't fit then don't wear it. I am but a humble servant of my Lord the risen One.

Anyway as you wish.

Shalom

Ted:-6
Ted :yh_sick

I am not and never have claimed to be a Christian. As I'm sure you have noticed. Well, perhaps not, you're always so wrapped up in your constant preaching. I am no one's servant, either.

Don't preach to me, I get enough of that from my mother, and I don't listen to her, either. Save your bible thumping for someone who's actually interested.

Doesn't play well with others,

BabyRider :yh_peace

Celtic Thunder · Post by **Celtic Thunder** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:52 am

IMO We are all right there is 1 superior being call him/her what you will.

The reason that the Holy books/ beliefs differ is due to our interpretation of what we are told.

downag · Post by **downag** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 6:36 am

It seems that God remains in control and there is nothing any one of us can do about it.

There is an idea presented in the bible which relays that most people just cannot see the light, and wont unless God opens their eyes and ears (understanding).

There is a story told in the bible that you don't often see. It is about a super-being who doesn't know of his own origin. He just knows he is and he even states that he has "looked for another, and found none." This "ONE" way back in the remote past discovered he can make anything he wants by expressing that he desires it to exist, as in "Let there be light". OR "LIGHT, BE!" A formidable person without a doubt. The scripture relates that he stretched a line and built what we call the "heavens". Imagine a perfect clockwork which never runs down. And then he made something else for his own pleasure, HIS SONS. An innumerable company. Billions upon billions of them. Call them angels. These Sons of God inhabited three planets of the system their Father had designated as their home. Call these places Earth, Mars and Rahab. And then sometime a long time ago, one of these sons, perhaps his first attempt, whom he made the "full pattern" full of power and immensely intelligent and beautiful, led a rebellion of 1/3 of his brethren against their Father. This God of creation turned to address this rebellion and destroyed the 5th planet of the system of their home which caused catastrophy on the other planets. Rahab was rendered a stretch of broken rocks which still circles its star (the asteroid belt). Mars was bombarded with debris and life was essentially wiped out. Earth's moon suffered immense bombardment and the "craters " still show. Earth suffered a total change in climate and the wonderful animals which were on her where all killed (dinosaurs).

God's sons, which are/were made of "stuff" not unlike their Father, were overthrown but not destroyed. As can be garnered from the Bible, it seems that in that rebellion, though 1/3 followed their rebell leader, a larger portion of the "Host of Heaven" stood by and didn't take sides. There was only a small contingent of the billions who stood by their creator.

The plan was made to reconcile the entire creation justly and to offer free return to all who would repent of their rebellion and/or indifference. The Earth was rejuvinated and God made "man" (his sons) flesh (male and female). The patriarch Jacob was shown this in his dream of the angels of heaven ascending and descending a ladder from heaven to earth.

Not all who are put into the "flesh" will see salvation in this life in the flesh. The bible relates that a stupor is placed upon them, lest they would become responsible for everything in "this life" during phase one of the plan. The plan has been in effect for about 6,000 years now. There remains one thousand years yet to be. When the "messiah" of the Christians returns his second time (our Father) to reign with a rod of iron, as it is written.

But first, the leader of the rebellion will come to deceive those who are here at the very last of this "flesh" age. He will come claiming to be God and will deceive many (most). The blind guides have painted a scenario of terrible times of war and famine and plagues, etc. They see not what the word really says. The liar will come in peacably and prosperously. People will really think God has arrived. He will arrive in ships which have been seen throughout history as "chariots" and other figures of flying craft not of this world. Chariot is an old world name for "vehicle"; no?!

By a compilation of all history and science and the Bible, one can see this tapestry emerge.

Look up you people, for the Great and Terrible Day of the LORD OF HOSTS is soon to arrive!:)

But the great deceiver comes first.:-3

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 10:45 am

BabyRider wrote: No humbleness necessary, Bryn. You said something succinct and eloquent. I appreciate succinct and eloquent.

Not much humility round here - just an attempt at being gentlemanly

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 1:59 pm

Bryn Mawr wrote: Not much humility round here - just an attempt at being gentlemanly
Oh. Damn. Bryn, I am SOOOOOO sorry, I thought you were a woman.

Post by **spot** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 2:03 pm

BabyRider wrote: Oh. Damn. Bryn, I am SOOOOOO sorry, I thought you were a woman.With a name like Bryn, you'll probably find he's as Welsh as a Merioneth leek.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 2:14 pm

BabyRider wrote: Oh. Damn. Bryn, I am SOOOOOO sorry, I thought you were a woman.

Damn an bejeasus - there one character round here who'll be laughing his little socks off - I expect him to appear anny second now

and I always thought the beard was a dead giveaway :p

BabyRider wrote:

You'd be there for a fortnight!

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 2:16 pm

Really, Bryn, I am truly sorry. I hate making faux pas like that. :-5

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 2:18 pm

spot wrote: With a name like Bryn, you'll probably find he's as Welsh as a Merioneth leek.

Where else do you think Brynmawr is!

Sven · Post by **Sven** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 7:29 pm

downag wrote:

It seems that God remains in control and there is nothing any one of us can do about it.

There is an idea presented in the bible which relays that most people just cannot see the light, and wont unless God opens their eyes and ears (understanding).

There is a story told in the bible that you don't often see. It is about a super-being who doesn't know of his own origin. He just knows he is and he even states that he has "looked for another, and found none." This "ONE" way back in the remote past discovered he can make anything he wants by expressing that he desires it to exist, as in "Let there be light". OR "LIGHT, BE!" A formidable person without a doubt. The scripture relates that he stretched a line and built what we call the "heavens". Imagine a perfect clockwork which never runs down. And then he made something else for his own pleasure, HIS SONS. An innumerable company. Billions upon billions of them. Call them angels. These Sons of God inhabited three planets of the system their Father had designated as their home. Call these places Earth, Mars and Rahab. And then sometime a long time ago, one of these sons, perhaps his first attempt, whom he made the "full pattern" full of power and immensely intelligent and beautiful, led a rebellion of 1/3 of his brethren against their Father. This God of creation turned to address this rebellion and destroyed the 5th planet of the system of their home which caused catastrophy on the other planets. Rahab was rendered a stretch of broken rocks which still circles its star (the asteroid belt). Mars was bombarded with debris and life was essentially wiped out. Earth's moon suffered immense bombardment and the "craters " still show. Earth suffered a total change in climate and the wonderful animals which were on her where all killed (dinosaurs).

God's sons, which are/were made of "stuff" not unlike their Father, were overthrown but not destroyed. As can be garnered from the Bible, it seems that in that rebellion, though 1/3 followed their rebell leader, a larger portion of the "Host of Heaven" stood by and didn't take sides. There was only a small contingent of the billions who stood by their creator.

The plan was made to reconcile the entire creation justly and to offer free return to all who would repent of their rebellion and/or indifference. The Earth was rejuvinated and God made "man" (his sons) flesh (male and female). The patriarch Jacob was shown this in his dream of the angels of heaven ascending and descending a ladder from heaven to earth.

Not all who are put into the "flesh" will see salvation in this life in the flesh. The bible relates that a stupor is placed upon them, lest they would become responsible for everything in "this life" during phase one of the plan. The plan has been in effect for about 6,000 years now. There remains one thousand years yet to be. When the "messiah" of the Christians returns his second time (our Father) to reign with a rod of iron, as it is written.

But first, the leader of the rebellion will come to deceive those who are here at the very last of this "flesh" age. He will come claiming to be God and will deceive many (most). The blind guides have painted a scenario of terrible times of war and famine and plagues, etc. They see not what the word really says. The liar will come in peacably and prosperously. People will really think God has arrived. He will arrive in ships which have been seen throughout history as "chariots" and other figures of flying craft not of this world. Chariot is an old world name for "vehicle"; no?!

By a compilation of all history and science and the Bible, one can see this tapestry emerge.

Look up you people, for the Great and Terrible Day of the LORD OF HOSTS is soon to arrive!:)

But the great deceiver comes first.:-3

Wow! Are you for real? Where abouts in the scriptures did you find this? With dates and timelines and everything... The lord of hosts hey? Sounds interesting.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 8:36 pm

Wow is correct. It is an interesting myth. Does it not paint a God who is a monster? Does God actually stop people from seeing the truth? Is this a just and righteous god? How can we trust in such a god?

Does this not make God sound like an ancient Greek myth with a cyclopse, the sirens, of Ulysses travels, a real monster?

Wasn't God on the earth before the last 6000 years?

Why would a just and righteous God inflict the "deceiver" on humankind?

Shalom

Ted:-6

downag · Post by **downag** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 5:05 am

Sven and Ted;

Sven first, take a look at the material available at "theseason.org"

Ted, YHVH has to be fair to Lucifer too.

His long suffering and mercy will be demonstrated.

After all, it is HIS universe. And I want to be part of the future of it. The promise is completely open ended for a future of life and love and joy. You cannot have an insane person running amuk (sp?). God didn't inflict Lucifer upon us, he (Lucifer) just went nuts and thought he could be worshipped like his maker. 6,000 years is just a wink in the scheme of eternity.

By the way, the Bible calls Lucifer "the god (notice the little "g") of >this< world."

Have to go for now.

d

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:02 pm

downag:-6

Historical research has pretty well shown that "Lucifer" is a human creation borrowed from some of the other early tribes in the east. The Hebrew people used this to explain the presence of evil in the world.

How and in what way is God obligated to treat "Lucifer",if he exists, fairly? I fail to see the logic between a God who loves the world unconditionally and feels that s/he must be fair to such a character as Lucifer.

We do not know what happens after death. Any words that we would use are metaphors because nothing else will do justice to that. Is it not a waste of time and harmful to try to go into details about which Jesus has clearly said we cannot know? When Jesus says that He came to earth so that we might have life and life more abundantly is he not talking as well about our earthly life?

If Jesus is concerned about the oppressed, the impoverished etc. are we as Christians not obligated to exercise the same concern?

Shalom

Ted:-6