Notification law cut teen abortions

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Accountable
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Notification law cut teen abortions

Post by Accountable »

It's a shame that we need a law that gives parents permission to do their jobs, but it is gratifying to see that parental involvement works.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Study: Notification law cut teen abortions



(AP) -- Abortion rates declined significantly among Texas girls -- though some got riskier abortions later in pregnancy -- after the state enacted a parental notification law, researchers say.



The findings could have a strong influence on the abortion debate. Texas is the biggest of 35 states that require minors to notify their parents or get their consent before obtaining an abortion, although a judge can usually grant a waiver.



Researchers at Baruch College at City University of New York studied the records of teen abortions and births for the two years before the Texas law took effect on January 1, 2000, and for three years afterward.



Abortion rates dropped for girls ages 15 through 18, even though the 18-year-olds were not subject to the law. But the drop was more pronounced among the younger girls. Their rates fell 11 percent to 20 percent more than the rate among the 18-year-olds did.



"The law has definite behavioral effects," said lead researcher Ted Joyce, a Baruch professor of economics.



The study was reported in Thursday's New England Journal of Medicine.



In the study, birth rates declined for all ages in the 15- to 18-year-old group. At the same time, the abortion rate among 18-year-olds fell from 27.7 abortions per 1,000 girls before the law to 25.8 afterward. The rate dropped from 18.7 to 14.5 among 17-year-olds; 12.1 to 9.0 among 16-year-olds; and 6.5 to 5.4 among 15-year-olds.



Texas state Sen. Florence Shapiro, who sponsored the notification law, said the findings show that more parents are becoming involved in their daughters' "life-altering decisions."



"That was my intent," she said. Last year, Texas went further and enacted a law requiring parental consent.



In the study, girls 171/2 or slightly older were one-third more likely to have an abortion in the second trimester than girls already 18 when they became pregnant, indicating many waited until they turned 18 to escape the notification requirement.



Abortion later in pregnancy carries a much higher rate of deadly complications, though the overall risk is still extremely small.



The study "draws attention to the way that these kinds of laws can put teens in a compromised position that puts their health at risk," said Lawrence Finer, director of domestic research at the Guttmacher Institute, a nonprofit research group that specializes in reproductive issues.



The abortion rate has been falling among all girls since 1991 both nationally and in Texas, as have teen birth rates, for reasons that are believed to include greater use of birth control, more effective methods and a delay in first-time intercourse.



Besides the 35 states with parental consent or notification laws in force, nine states have passed such laws but they have been found unconstitutional, according to NARAL Pro-Choice America.



The Baruch researchers studied Texas because of its large and ethnically diverse population and because most girls there live far from states that do not require parental involvement before an abortion.



The New York Times conducted its own analysis of abortion rates in Texas and five other states and concluded in a story Monday that parental involvement laws have had little effect there.



Joyce said that analysis had a different outcome because it included two states with tiny populations, one state where the law was overturned, and two states near areas where abortion is easily accessible without parental involvement.



Find this article at:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/03/08/ab ... arental.ap
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Post by Peg »

In the study, girls 171/2 or slightly older were one-third more likely to have an abortion in the second trimester than girls already 18 when they became pregnant, indicating many waited until they turned 18 to escape the notification requirement.

Abortion later in pregnancy carries a much higher rate of deadly complications, though the overall risk is still extremely small.


This is the part that worries me most. And I find it very hard to believe that an abortion in the second trimester has extremely small risks. That's what the lawmakers who like us to believe.
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Post by Peg »

I couldn't agree more that educating about contraception is the key to cutting back on abortion. So many parents feel that if they get their daughter the pill, or buy their son condoms, it is giving them permission to have sex. Well guess what? Their kids go out and have sex anyways without their permission. I know I didn't ask my parents, "Do you mind if I have sex with "X"? I believe it is not only up to parents, but schools, health care providers, etc. to educate our children on safe sex. Many parents won't.

At least giving the Parents the right to make a more mature decisions make cut down the deaths
Unfortunately, I know children with the ability to make more mature decisions than their parents.:(
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Post by Accountable »

sixyearsleft wrote: Abortion is inumane.



At least giving the Parents the right to make a more mature decisions make cut down the deaths, although somehow i dont think it'll make much difference,

it would be a better idea to educate the kids about contraception, just a guess but i bet its the lower classes or the less educated who may struggle with this more, and obviously they wont teach contraception in certain faith schools.



What is the maximum number of weeks allowed to have an abortion in the us?
There is no maximum. The Supreme Court shoehorned abortion into a convoluted interpretation of privacy rights.



Sure, contraception is something that needs to be taught, I suppose. Far more important would be a class in self-responsibility, personal economics, and parenting. Maybe that would convince a few more kids to settle for masturbation until they're ready to be parents. And maybe they would be better parents than their own ones.
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Post by Accountable »

Peg wrote: I couldn't agree more that educating about contraception is the key to cutting back on abortion. So many parents feel that if they get their daughter the pill, or buy their son condoms, it is giving them permission to have sex. Well guess what? Their kids go out and have sex anyways without their permission. I know I didn't ask my parents, "Do you mind if I have sex with "X"? I believe it is not only up to parents, but schools, health care providers, etc. to educate our children on safe sex. Many parents won't.



Unfortunately, I know children with the ability to make more mature decisions than their parents.:(
Maybe they would if we held parents accountable for their responsibility. Teen sex is statutory rape. Parents are responsible for their kids' actions. If parents paid a consequence for not keeping control of their kids, maybe they'd pay more attention.









Now bring on the apologists.
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Post by Peg »

Did you ever see that doll that has a computer chip in and the baby will cry, etc. and it will show the teacher if you fed it, changed it, shook it, whatever. Extremely expensive but I'd love to see all schools get a few and have as many kids as possible take it home for at least one night.
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Post by Peg »

Studies I would like seen done: How many kids were beaten and/or disowned for getting pregnant once their parents found out? How many of these babies the parents insisted their child have are being raised without love and nurturing? How many of these babies are being supported by the father too? How many of these babies are being supported by welfare? How many of these kids having kids actually got to finish high school?
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Post by Accountable »

I just had a great idea! Seriously.



1. Kids need to know about parenting

2. Many welfare mothers can't find work because they can't afford childcare.



Why not have free childcare at the public high schools? They can make it a learning facility, bringing kids in for a class with the teacher actually running the place.



The idea may need some tweaking, but it could work. What do you think?
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Post by Accountable »

Peg wrote: Studies I would like seen done: How many kids were beaten and/or disowned for getting pregnant once their parents found out? How many of these babies the parents insisted their child have are being raised without love and nurturing? How many of these babies are being supported by the father too? How many of these babies are being supported by welfare? How many of these kids having kids actually got to finish high school?
How many were educated in the option of adoption?
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Post by Peg »

Accountable wrote: How many were educated in the option of adoption?
I totally agree.

I just had a great idea! Seriously.

1. Kids need to know about parenting

2. Many welfare mothers can't find work because they can't afford childcare.

Why not have free childcare at the public high schools? They can make it a learning facility, bringing kids in for a class with the teacher actually running the place.

The idea may need some tweaking, but it could work. What do you think?


I think that's a great idea. The problem would be, there'd have to be a set student to teacher ratio when dealing with infants and children. I wonder if it raise insurance rates for schools? Great idea, but is it doable? If so, would schools be willing to do it? I'm sure if there were grants involved that means more income for the school, they'd likely go for it.
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Post by jennyswan »

Some useful info:

Stages of embryo/fetal growth

*

At about 17 days it has developed its own blood cells

*

At about 24 days its heart has regular beats or pulsations

*

At about 6 weeks its skeleton is complete, brain wave patterns can be recorded

*

At about 8 weeks its stomach, liver, kidneys and brain are all functioning

*

At about 12 weeks it inhales and exhales amniotic fluid

*

At about 4 months its genital organs are clearly differentiated: it can grasp with its hands, swim, kick and turn somersaults

AND ONLY READ ON IF YOU WANT TO - IT'S HOW THEY PERFORM ABORTIONS. IT'S NOT NICE TO READ.

Suction Aspiration

*

A powerful suction tube with a sharp cutting edge is inserted into the womb through the dilated cervix. The suction dismembers the body of the developing baby and tears the placenta from the wall of the uterus, sucking blood, amniotic fluid, placental tissue and foetal parts into a collection bottle. [Back]

Dilatation (Dilation) and Curettage (D&C)

*

The cervix is dilated or stretched to permit the insertion of a loop shaped steel knife. The body of the baby is cut into pieces and removed and the placenta is scraped off the uterine wall. Blood loss from D&C, or 'mechanical' curettage is greater than for suction aspiration, as is the likelihood of uterine perforation and infection. [Back]

RU 486

*

The so-called 'French abortion pill'. RU486 uses two powerful synthetic hormones to chemically induce abortions in women five to nine weeks pregnant. It blocks the action of progesterone, the natural hormone vital to maintaining the rich nutrient lining of the uterus. The developing baby starves as the nutrient lining disintegrates. [Back]

Dilatation (Dilation) and Evacuation (D&E)

*

This method is similar to the D&C except that forceps with sharp metal jaws are used to grasp parts of the developing baby, which are then twisted and torn away. This continues until the the entire body is removed from the womb. Because the baby's skull may have hardened to bone by this time (especially if performed at the 24 week stage) , the skull must sometimes be compressed or crushed to facilitate removal. [Back]

Methotrexate

*

Similar to using RU486 except it is administered by an intramuscular injection instead of a pill. It also deprives the baby of the food, oxygen and fluids needed to survive. Three to seven days later (depending on the protocol used) a suppository of misoprostol is inserted into the woman's uterus to trigger the expulsion of the body/foetus from the womb. Many doctors are reluctant to use methotrexate because it is highly toxic and has unpredictable side effects. [Back]

Salt Poisoning

*

This technique can be used after 16 weeks when enough fluid has accumulated in the fluid sac surrounding the baby. A needle is inserted into the mother's abdomen and 50-250 ml of amniotic fluid is withdrawn and replaced with a solution of concentrated salt. The baby swallows the salt and is poisoned. The salt also causes burning and deterioration of the baby's skin. Usually the child dies after an hour. Seizures, coma or death may result from saline inadvertently being injected into the woman's vascular system. [Back]



I think I don't need to add anymore.
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Accountable
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Post by Accountable »

So I take it you agree with parental consent and the education measures we've been discussing?
Jives
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Post by Jives »

The abortion rate may be dropping, but the teen pregnancy rate is skyrocketing. Just look around my classroom and you'll see three or four pregnant 15-year-olds in any given class.

One half of all pregnancies in New mexico last year were to teens, and one half of those were born into extreme poverty.

So what we've done is trade one problem for another. Instead of having aborted babies, we have neglected, impoverished, and unwanted babies.

Personally, I think it is more inhumane to force a destitute family to raise an unwanted child, than to insure that the child is never born at all. :cool:
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Post by Accountable »

Jives wrote: The abortion rate may be dropping, but the teen pregnancy rate is skyrocketing. Just look around my classroom and you'll see three or four pregnant 15-year-olds in any given class.



One half of all pregnancies in New mexico last year were to teens, and one half of those were born into extreme poverty.



So what we've done is trade one problem for another. Instead of having aborted babies, we have neglected, impoverished, and unwanted babies.



Personally, I think it is more inhumane to force a destitute family to raise an unwanted child, than to insure that the child is never born at all. :cool:
The study was in Texas. Does NM have parental consent laws?
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Post by Accountable »

Here are the birth rates the study uncovered:





In the study, birth rates declined for all ages in the 15- to 18-year-old group. At the same time, the abortion rate among 18-year-olds fell from 27.7 abortions per 1,000 girls before the law to 25.8 afterward. The rate dropped from 18.7 to 14.5 among 17-year-olds; 12.1 to 9.0 among 16-year-olds; and 6.5 to 5.4 among 15-year-olds.


So, while your observations about NM may be correct, parental consent laws seem to work here in Texas.
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Post by jennyswan »

So I take it you agree with parental consent and the education measures we've been discussing?


Yes I agree, I think young people should be more educated regarding contraception and in general what sex is and can be.

I also think it is important to educate people about abortion and what they are about to undertake emotionally and physically. It's not just an easy way out.

If parents talked to their kids more about sex and educated them how to protect themselves not only against pregnancy but also against STDs then things would get better in every country. I remember grewing up (and it's not all that long ago) anything we learned about sex or contraception was through heresay in school or from pals.

It would be a good idea to help parents to know how to deal with approaching a topic like this.
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Post by observer1 »

Accountable wrote: I just had a great idea! Seriously.



1. Kids need to know about parenting

2. Many welfare mothers can't find work because they can't afford childcare.



Why not have free childcare at the public high schools? They can make it a learning facility, bringing kids in for a class with the teacher actually running the place.



The idea may need some tweaking, but it could work. What do you think?


Ya know Acc, I completely agree with you on this! Unfortunately, the Dept of Education doesn't want to foot the bill. And because of that, and the fact that the different school districts don't want to seem to be condoning teen pregnancy, it's not done. And that leaves these teen moms out in the cold, on public assistance, "sponging off of you & me", as we all say.
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Post by Jives »

Accountable wrote:

1. Kids need to know about parenting


All children enrolled in high school in New mexico must take a parenting class.

2. Many welfare mothers can't find work because they can't afford childcare.


They also can't find work because they never graduated due to getting pregnant and dropping out.



Why not have free childcare at the public high schools? They can make it a learning facility, bringing kids in for a class with the teacher actually running the place.


Every high school in my city has free childcare programs. My high school, being an alternative high school, has a complete state-of-the-art daycare facility that rivals the best of the private sector.

Most high schools do these days. We had no choice, not when 12 year olds are getting pregnant now. The teen pregnancy rate is staggering.
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Jives
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Post by Jives »

observer1 wrote: Ya know Acc, I completely agree with you on this! Unfortunately, the Dept of Education doesn't want to foot the bill.


It's not that we don't want to foot the bill. It's that we don't have any money to foot the bill. Since we don't get enough money from the State, doing this would cause us to have to cancel something....like Reading for instance.

People these days have no idea how underfunded schools are. You can thank Bush and his cronies for that. P.E. is gone in most schools, as is all out of town travel for sports teams, all music programs for elementary students, all art classes in elementary and middle schools, and most of the shop classes.

Teachers, one of the most creative, imaginative, and educated sector of our population, consistently live at the poverty level. Let me put it into perspective for you. I make $500 a week take home pay after taxes. if I didn't teach night school, summer school, and work my lunch hours...I'd go bankrupt in a week.

And because of that, and the fact that the different school districts don't want to seem to be condoning teen pregnancy, it's not done.


This is also a misconception. We'd love to teach sex education, abstinance, heck...we'd even love to hand out condoms. But the public outcry, every time we try to do something about the sex problems that are destroying us, is deafening. We are called all kinds of names, then sued. The money that we lose cuts back programs even more. Hell...we can barely even run an AIDS curriculum without fear of getting sued.

Then the teens go home, where mom and dad (if there is one) are at work until 9. They turn on the cable TV and watch porno until late at night. When mom comes home, they turn that off and put on their CDs that are loaded to the hilt with sexual lyrics. (see: Gwen Stefani's "bubble pop electric" off the grammy-winning album this year.) While they are doing this they read magazines like Maxim or Lowrider that are just shy of Penthouse and Playboy.

The next day they come to me to hear another lesson on why they should not have sex until they are married.

Strangely, I don't seem to be having much impact.:cool:

And that leaves these teen moms out in the cold, on public assistance, "sponging off of you & me", as we all say.


Believe me...we are doing everything we can. Unfortunately, Society is fighting us every step of the way.

Get rid of those negative influences, and I might have a chance...

But who here would do that?
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Post by gmc »

posted by accountable

Sure, contraception is something that needs to be taught, I suppose. Far more important would be a class in self-responsibility, personal economics, and parenting. Maybe that would convince a few more kids to settle for masturbation until they're ready to be parents. And maybe they would be better parents than their own ones.

Maybe if people just accepted sex as normal and a healthy activity and taught kids about contraceptives and allowed free access to them instead of not talking about it you might stop more getting pregnant in the first place. Knowledge is power and so is being able to talk about things freely.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4584175.stm

A report by the government's Social Exclusion Unit, which forms the basis for its teenage pregnancy policy, says a number of factors stand out when looking at the reasons for the UK phenomenon.

Low expectations of education and employment opportunities for some young people, ignorance about contraception, and mixed messages about sex from the adult world are all cited.

Brook, which provides sexual health advice to young people, mostly agrees with the government's assessment, but says it needs to learn from the openness of other European countries.

Chief executive Jan Barlow said there were three main reasons why so many other countries enjoyed lower pregnancy and STI rates.

Good comprehensive sex and relationship education, better access to young people-friendly services, and a more open attitude to sex, she says, lead to young people making different decisions.




In comparing rates between Europe and the US, where rates are much higher - it found the difference in levels of sexual activity were small.

The much-quoted research concluded that countries enjoying low rates of teen births were characterised by, among other things, an acceptance in society of the sexual activity of young people.
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Post by observer1 »

Jives wrote: It's not that we don't want to foot the bill. It's that we don't have any money to foot the bill. Since we don't get enough money from the State, doing this would cause us to have to cancel something....like Reading for instance.

People these days have no idea how underfunded schools are. You can thank Bush and his cronies for that. P.E. is gone in most schools, as is all out of town travel for sports teams, all music programs for elementary students, all art classes in elementary and middle schools, and most of the shop classes.

Teachers, one of the most creative, imaginative, and educated sector of our population, consistently live at the poverty level. Let me put it into perspective for you. I make $500 a week take home pay after taxes. if I didn't teach night school, summer school, and work my lunch hours...I'd go bankrupt in a week.



This is also a misconception. We'd love to teach sex education, abstinance, heck...we'd even love to hand out condoms. But the public outcry, every time we try to do something about the sex problems that are destroying us, is deafening. We are called all kinds of names, then sued. The money that we lose cuts back programs even more. Hell...we can barely even run an AIDS curriculum without fear of getting sued.

Then the teens go home, where mom and dad (if there is one) are at work until 9. They turn on the cable TV and watch porno until late at night. When mom comes home, they turn that off and put on their CDs that are loaded to the hilt with sexual lyrics. (see: Gwen Stefani's "bubble pop electric" off the grammy-winning album this year.) While they are doing this they read magazines like Maxim or Lowrider that are just shy of Penthouse and Playboy.

The next day they come to me to hear another lesson on why they should have sex until they are married.

Strangely, I don't seem to be having much impact.:cool:



Believe me...we are doing everything we can. Unfortunately, Society is fighting us every step of the way.

Get rid of those negative influences, and I might have a chance...

But who here would do that?


Jives, I meant no offense. This is just coming from a frustrated mother whose only child got pregnant in her senior year. When she was put on total bed rest in October of that year, she was supposed to get home schooling. Well, let's just say it took them til December to have someone finally show up. By this time, she'd already fallen way behind. Then she had the baby on December 23rd. The Dept of Education's law states that a teen mom gets no maternity leave, unless the doctor can prove there was a complication with the delivery.

Long story short, she now has 2 kids (& believe me, I PREACHED birthcontrol & abstanance to her!!) & no diploma. She just went to take her test for her GED, but we're still waiting for the results. Just wish us luck. I had greater expectations for my child than this. The only ones to blame are the pregnant mother & father.

BTW, if you think $500/week is poverty level, I must REALLLLLLY be POOR!!!!
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Post by Accountable »

Jives wrote: All children enrolled in high school in New mexico must take a parenting class.







They also can't find work because they never graduated due to getting pregnant and dropping out.







Every high school in my city has free childcare programs. My high school, being an alternative high school, has a complete state-of-the-art daycare facility that rivals the best of the private sector.



Most high schools do these days. We had no choice, not when 12 year olds are getting pregnant now. The teen pregnancy rate is staggering.
Knowledge is power, right? Do the schools use the facilities in any way to teach students the realities & consequences of sex before they get pregnant?

It may not be feasible, for myriad reasons I'm ignorant of, but it seems to me to be an ideal way to teach these kids.

I think it's an idea st least worth looking into.
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Post by Jives »

observer1 wrote: Jives, I meant no offense.


lol. No offense taken. the system is broken, but I have no idea how to fix it. It's certainly no fault of yours.

This is just coming from a frustrated mother whose only child got pregnant in her senior year. When she was put on total bed rest in October of that year, she was supposed to get home schooling. Well, let's just say it took them til December to have someone finally show up.


Typical. It takes two years to get a kid tested for special ed. By that time they are seriousy far behind. The home schooling problem occurs because of the incredible amounts of red tape and paperwork involved.

By this time, she'd already fallen way behind. Then she had the baby on December 23rd. The Dept of Education's law states that a teen mom gets no maternity leave, unless the doctor can prove there was a complication with the delivery.


Stupid. But we have to remember that the laws are passed by the legislators that you and I elect.

Long story short, she now has 2 kids (& believe me, I PREACHED birthcontrol & abstanance to her!!) & no diploma.


That is my point exactly. Both you and her teachers were giving her the same message. But every day, in a hundred different ways, she got the exact opposite of our message. It's obvious whose message she thought most important and worth listening to.

Hey, how can you and I compete with the Playboy Channel, Fifty Cent, and Gwen Stefani?

She just went to take her test for her GED, but we're still waiting for the results. Just wish us luck.


I am here online almost everyday, and until 9:00 at night on Tuesdays and Thursdays. If you need any help or tutoring, either start a tutoring thread or PM me, I love to help.

I had greater expectations for my child than this.


Yes, unfortunately they didn't have those same expectations for themselves.

The only ones to blame are the pregnant mother & father.


Ultimatey, you are absolutely correct. Of course, it must have been confusing for them, getting conflicting messages all day long.

BTW, if you think $500/week is poverty level, I must REALLLLLLY be POOR!!!!


Sorry to hear that, gas prices must be really hitting you.:o
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Jives
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Post by Jives »

Accountable wrote: Knowledge is power, right? Do the schools use the facilities in any way to teach students the realities & consequences of sex before they get pregnant?


Negative. We tried that in the 70's. Some of the lawsuits may be settled soon. The only way we can teach anything like what you are talking about is by sneaking it into a class as a "health" lesson. Even then it's taking a chance.

We are allowed to teach that very lesson to one class. The parenting class. The class that has all the teen parents in it. Strangely...they all seem to already know about it.
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Jives
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Post by Jives »

observer1 wrote: BTW, if you think $500/week is poverty level, I must REALLLLLLY be POOR!!!!


$500 a week is pretty low for someone with military experience and three bachelor's degrees. Since my house payment is more than one of my paychecks, just to live I have to work three jobs.

since my wife is seriously ill and can't work, that is the sum total of our income.
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Post by Accountable »

Jives wrote: Negative. We tried that in the 70's. Some of the lawsuits may be settled soon. The only way we can teach anything like what you are talking about is by sneaking it into a class as a "health" lesson. Even then it's taking a chance.



We are allowed to teach that very lesson to one class. The parenting class. The class that has all the teen parents in it. Strangely...they all seem to already know about it.
I'm sorry but I had to laugh at the irony.



Btw, does New Mexico require parental consent prior to abortion?
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Post by Jives »

I think you are mistaking our state for a civilized one.

The guy in the alley behind the Quicky-Mart not only doesn't ask for parental consent, sometimes he doesn't even sterilize the coat hanger.
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Post by Accountable »

Jives wrote: I think you are mistaking our state for a civilized one.



The guy in the alley behind the Quicky-Mart not only doesn't ask for parental consent, sometimes he doesn't even sterilize the coat hanger.
Either abortion is illegal in New Mexico or I don't follow your sarcasm.
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Post by Jives »

Sorry, I'm not being clear enough. Since most of the population is too poor to see any kind of doctor, and the rest are good Catholics, most abortions done in New Mexico are the kind that are not heard of or talked about.

In the Hispanic culture...well, I probably shouldn't go there. :thinking:
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Peg
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Notification law cut teen abortions

Post by Peg »

My daughter just floored me with this one today. Her friend is 3 months pregnant. The first thing I asked, "Has she considered putting the baby up for adoption?" I can honestly see this girl getting pregnant on purpose. I can see her dreaming that the father will marry her and take care of her and the baby. He parents failed her, her family failed her, the whole stinking system has failed her. This is a child, who when her parents decided to divorce, decided they wanted nothing to do with their 4 children. They dumped them on grandma who did her best, I am sure, and their single uncle who was more or less a tyrant. When mom needed money, she'd persuade one of the children to move in with her "because she missed them so much" so she could get help from welfare. Once she had a man to help her again, the child was sent back to grandma. This went on for years. Grandma died. The uncle, I will give him credit, did try. Welfare forced him to go to work. By this time, the boys, both over 18 had moved out. The 2 girls, enjoyed their newfound freedom of the uncle being gone. He couldn't take any more, sent them to live with dad. Here comes mom again with all her love wanting the girl to move in with her. Okay, new source of income, out you go again. It's heartbreaking wondering what kind of life this baby will have.:-1
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Adam Zapple
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Notification law cut teen abortions

Post by Adam Zapple »

The U.S. Senate passed the Child Custody Protection Act. This law makes it a federal crime for anyone to transport a minor across state line's in order to circumvent a states parental notification or consent laws. The bill has already passed in the House. The next step would be for the bill to go to conference but objections from some Democratic lawmakers have stalled the bill. I suspect it will eventually go to President Bush and be signed into law.
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DesignerGal
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Notification law cut teen abortions

Post by DesignerGal »

Adam Zapple wrote: The U.S. Senate passed the Child Custody Protection Act. This law makes it a federal crime for anyone to transport a minor across state line's in order to circumvent a states parental notification or consent laws. The bill has already passed in the House. The next step would be for the bill to go to conference but objections from some Democratic lawmakers have stalled the bill. I suspect it will eventually go to President Bush and be signed into law.


I really dont think this is a good idea.






HBIC
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Adam Zapple
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Notification law cut teen abortions

Post by Adam Zapple »

DesignerGal wrote: I really dont think this is a good idea.


Would you be inclinded to elaborate?
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Adam Zapple
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Notification law cut teen abortions

Post by Adam Zapple »

It's an intrusion of the state to prohibit someone from taking my minor daughter across state lines without my permission to have an invasive medical procedure? Her school can't give her an aspirin without my permission.
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DesignerGal
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Notification law cut teen abortions

Post by DesignerGal »

I think this is more detrimental than good. I dont think we should hand out abortions left and right to use as a form of birth control (its not an easy decision for most people) but there are so many girls out there whose fathers would beat them half to death if they told them they were pregnant. There are also fathers out there who have raped their teenage daughters or stepdaughters. There are also girls out there who have been raped and dont want to tell their parents because its so painful. I dont think this will fix the problem, I think it will irritate it.






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Accountable
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Notification law cut teen abortions

Post by Accountable »

Diuretic wrote: This law is designed to stop parents who wish to take their minor daughter to another state in order to have an abortion in that state. I call that an unwarranted intrusion. It will be interesting to see if it's struck down on the grounds of unconstitutionality.Um, parents don't need to circumvent a parental consent law. :thinking:



I agree with you that kidnapping is already against the law. I'm never for new laws when there's a perfectly good one already in place. This is obviously an election pander play.
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Accountable
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Notification law cut teen abortions

Post by Accountable »

Diuretic wrote: Good point on the circumvention thing. In that case my first point was wrong. I would think then that the law is aimed at boyfriends or other friends who might want to take the girl to a state that allows abortion without parental consent.



I had my dumb hat on when I wrote my post (my excuse an' I'm stickin' to it :D )Now we agree on all points. :yh_bigsmi



IMO, a boyfriend, other friend, or anyone else should be jailed for kidnapping for such an act.
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Accountable
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Notification law cut teen abortions

Post by Accountable »

Diuretic wrote: Heck yes, if it was kidnapping but if the girl wanted to get a legal and safe abortion and there was a law requiring parental in her state and she couldn't obtain that consent so her friend drove her into a state where she could do so then I don't see why the person who is helping her should face criminal charges.
It is the parents' right and responsibility to make decisions for their children. Circumventing that alone should be a felony, imo. There are safety stops in any situation like this, but those stops are exercised by officials in that capacity, not some pimple-faced horndog that knocked her up in the first place, not a school chum who sits behind her in math class, and certainly not some nosey adult who has different ideas on how a child should be raised.
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Adam Zapple
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Notification law cut teen abortions

Post by Adam Zapple »

Diuretic wrote: :thinking:

You have made the point that officials need to make "safety stop" decisions and that's fair enough. The pimple-faced horndog that knocked her up shouldn't be able to make any decision concerning her wellbeing. It should be up to her to make her own decision. That's why I think I have to say that while I can understand the opposition to abortion laws that don't require parental consent I really think that the girl's wellbeing is the key, not parental wishes. If she wants to have the child after understanding all the implications, or if she wants to have the child and then give the child up for adoption (again after all implications have been explored) or if she wishes an abortion, all should be her informed decision and while a parent can express their wishes they can't treat the child as their property and overbear her will.


Yes they can, if that child is a minor. As the father of three girls ages 12, 11, and 6, I can tell you that I usurp their wishes and overbear their will all the time. A child even at the age of 14 or 15 can't possibly understand all the implications of pregnancy. They certainly didn't understand the implications of having sex at such a young age. I'm not suggesting that parents act like tyrants over their children, I just happen to believe that in most cases the ones who loves and cares for that minor more than anyone are the parents. I certainly don't believe that in most cases the government is better suited to do what is right by a child. How often does the government do anything efficiently or in the best interests of its citizens? How often do we complain about government corruption and malfeasance in these forums? Yet some think big brother is a better steward of my children than I am? I don't think so. When did we get to the point that we think that as a rule parents aren't the best advocates for their own children? Give me one reason I should believe that some agent of the government has a more suitable interest in my child than I do. Sorry, I don't trust 'em. Every parental notification/consent law that has every passed muster has allowed advocates to step in on behalf of children from neglectful and abusive homes.

I think this law is a good thing. I think it protects children from people who don't have their best interests at heart. It prevents a statutory rapist from taking his victim across state lines for an abortion. It prevents a pimple-faced boyfriend giving an ultimatum to a confused young, minor girlfriend. We wink at abortion as if it is a simple procedure. It's not. Girls must take antibiotics after the abortion. They could hemorrhage, they could get a fatal bout of sepsis if not treated properly. This is not a medical procedure that parents should be excluded from. Here is one story and represents why I think this is a good law (I know it is anecdotal), presented as testimony before Congress:

http://judiciary.house.gov/HearingTestimony.aspx?ID=254

Basically, a Pennsylvania mother tells of her 14-yr old daughter who became pregnant. The parents were supportive and did everything we could hope that parents do in that situation. They were model parents in looking out for their daughter. Then there was the boyfriend and his parents. They were less than exemplary. They harrassed and manipulated the young girl into meeting them when she was supposed to be going to school. They drove her to NJ where she had an abortion and then they dropped her off down the street from her house. Now the girl and her parents are dealing with the emotional and physical repurcussions and there is no legal action the parents can take against the boyfriends parents. I don't think the instances you guys mentioned meet the legal definition of kidnapping. With the Child Custody Protection Act there will be protection for the minor and resources for the parents to pursue. And that's a good thing.
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Adam Zapple
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Notification law cut teen abortions

Post by Adam Zapple »

But where a minor female chooses to have an abortion willingly and organises travel to a state where she doesn't need parental consent - why should that be illegal?


First of all, I'm not sure the above is illegal if she were to take a bus or something. As I understand it, the law I cited is prevent someone else from circumventing the will and authority of the parents. I simply think that makes sense. But, the key word here is minor., we're not talking about a young adult. Diuretic, do you have children? If you do, surely you know that their judgement is not usually sound, esp if guided by peer pressure rather than parental and authoritative advice. A minor can't get her ears pierced without parental consent. A minor can't get a cavity filled without parental consent. A minor can't get a driver's permit without parental consent. And if someone took my minor girls out of state to Six Flags without my permission there would be confrontation that the police might need to be present at. Why should a serious, invasive procedure like abortion be treated any differently?
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