Do You believe in the Devil?

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Mon Sep 06, 2004 12:07 pm

Most of us here believe in God. The Christians and Jews and some believe in Allah ect. But how many of us believe in The Devil - Lucifer - Satan?

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Mon Sep 06, 2004 10:00 pm

i don't believe in the devil. not, at least, as an embodied phenomenon. nor do i believe in jesus as an embodied phenomenon.

evil exists. good exists. that dynamic is necessary, as you cannot have one without the other. but animating evil as an incarnate being does not in any way inform my desire to fight it.

vampress.rozz · Post by **vampress.rozz** » Tue Sep 07, 2004 3:13 pm

I believe there`s a lot of unexplained good and evil in the world.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Tue Sep 07, 2004 10:23 pm

i didn't express myself clearly. in order to judge that something is 'good', it must be in relation to something else. not necessarily the opposite. but to determine something to be 'good' it must be in relation to that which is 'not good'.

i don't think in a discussion pertaining to the devil/evil, that we're talking about fine gradations, a la 'lilies are good, daisies are evil'. i think we're talking about the coarser, palpable qualities of our lebenzwelt - 'kindness is good, murder is evil', for example.

among the psychotic, surely, murder may not be evil. to all others among us, it is inherently so. and likewise with kindness. i think we can all agree that kindness is good.

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 4:50 am

Halloween, Wicca the old religion as they call it here. And I that some guy's have set up a Church of Satan in New York?

:guitarist

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Wed Oct 27, 2004 3:33 pm

I certainly believe that there is a power of evil in the world. However as with all things that pertain to God or Satan we are left with only metaphor to describe what it is that we believe. We lack the language and the conceptualization ability to go any further; thus we personify evil as the devil or satan just as we personify God as Father.

The idea of Satan was borrowed by the early Hebrews from one of the tribes with whom they came into contact. It may have been the Mesopotamians but the specifics skip my mind at the moment.

Shalom

Ted :-6

vampress.rozz · Post by **vampress.rozz** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 1:39 am

we personify evil as the devil or satan just as we personify God as Father.

Shalom

Ted :-6

I dont see evil as a lone figure. Of course I was told about the devil as a child. He makes a great character for books, films and cartoons. He would give us something tangible to fight against. I think perhaps this distracts us from the real fight within. I see evil as something else. something non-tangible. You cant point to a spot where evil is and blast it away. Christians will tell us god is all around us therefore would it not be the case that evil or the devil is too?

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 12:47 pm

Vampress :-6

Generally I agree with you. I do not see evil as an entity that we can point to. However, traditionally this evil has been personified. I believe there is a power of evil around but due to the aformentioned problems I can say no more.

Shalom

Ted :-6

koan · Post by **koan** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 5:32 pm

Took me longer to think of what to say here.

Yes. I believe the devil is a little scapegoat that people use when they don't want to take responsibility for their actions. I believe that people who worship Satan are people who can't handle personal responsibility. :yh_chickn

As a fictional character...What would Sleeping Beauty be without Malificent? :-6

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 8:03 am

Auld Nick

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 8:34 am

tmbsgrl wrote: I do but i don't. If there is no Devil then how do people become possessed by him or it. I am a christian but there is definatly evil in the world. Aye. So if there is No Devil.....there is No God or Jesus? Where is Ted?

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 3:41 pm

The devil is the creation of the early medieval church. They had to do something to discourage the old pagan beliefs and what better than a propoganda war demonising pagan practices.

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 3:45 pm

Get behind me Satan?

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 5:00 pm

I think there is little doubt that there is "evil" in the world. There certainly seems to be a "power of evil". That of course gets us into the nature of man himself. Man, fortunately, is born neither good nor evil. Original sin has gone the way of the Dodo bird as it should have. Theologically it is a non-starter. Why does an invidivual choose to be good or bad? I guess there are many reasons and I don't really want to get into them here.

"Satan" was borrowed by the early Hebrews from one of the early surrounding tribes; Mesopotamians, Babylonians etc. He was borrowed as a character in order to explain the origins of evil and give evil a focus. He is a myth used to explain evil. He is also a myth used by folks who, as has been mentioned, do not want to take responsibility for their own actions.

In Genesis evil was cast as a serpent. It was the serpent who tempted Eve (also a myth). One ought not to trust a talking snake. This also gave us a reason or understanding why snakes have no legs and crawl on their bellies.

Adams (also a myth) sin did not bring suffering and death into the world. It is part of the natural process of evolution. Incidentally that book I have been reading "Quantum Theology" by O'Murchu has some interesting and worthwhile comments on the problem of pain and suffering and the afterlife. That book as well as "Metaphorical Theology" by Sallie McFague have only served to increase my faith by leaps and bounds. They seem to know where it is at.

I certainly will look at my wife with serious questions the next time she offers me an apple though. LOL

Shalom

Ted

:-6

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 5:38 pm

There is evil and good in the world, but I do not believe in the Devil in any size, shape or form. To believe in a Devil, one must also believe in a God. I believe in neither.

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 5:39 pm

We fight a spiritual battle , in this world, everyday. That is pretty much what living is all about. The devils prescence is as real in this world as is Gods. We choose the eyes we see with. For example: The tradgedy in Asia is a perfect opportunity for many to lose their faith. There are two voices speaking to us everytime we are faced with making a moral decision. That decision can be as simple as choosing to be kind or mean. To something larger, like commiting adultery. There are consequences for every decision we make.. which may not reveal themselves immediately.. sometimes the consequences have to play themselves out. as the big tapestry continues to weave itself. We are all responsible for each other. What you do affects me and vice versa. The devil will use your friends , loved ones or circumstances to win you over to his side. He loves filth, darkness, immorality, selfishness, greed, bigotry. and ignorance. His gifts are poor health,

unhappiness, marital discord, pain, and death. Yes, I believe in him.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 7:05 pm

The devil or Satan is really the personification or anthropomorphization of all that is evil.

Shalom

Ted :-6 :-6

koan · Post by **koan** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 12:18 am

I think most people do not believe in a living breathing humanoid called Satan, but most believe in evil. It IS all around us and hard to ignore.

I am interested to hear what people think evil is.

How do you recognise it, why do you think it exists and does it exist in everyone?

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 5:46 am

capn buzzard

Get behind me Satan? is he gay?

posted by weeder

We fight a spiritual battle , in this world, everyday. That is pretty much what living is all about. The devils prescence is as real in this world as is Gods. We choose the eyes we see with. For example: The tradgedy in Asia is a perfect opportunity for many to lose their faith. There are two voices speaking to us everytime we are faced with making a moral decision. That decision can be as simple as choosing to be kind or mean. To something larger, like commiting adultery. There are consequences for every decision we make.. which may not reveal themselves immediately.. sometimes the consequences have to play themselves out. as the big tapestry continues to weave itself. We are all responsible for each other. What you do affects me and vice versa. The devil will use your friends , loved ones or circumstances to win you over to his side. He loves filth, darkness, immorality, selfishness, greed, bigotry. and ignorance. His gifts are poor health,

unhappiness, marital discord, pain, and death. Yes, I believe in him.

It's a cop out beloved of the religious. It wasn't me it was the devil made me do it. Not I decided to lie/steal whatever knowing full well it wrong but I thought no one would find out, no it has to be the devil misled me. Who is going to tell you what is evil and what is not-why a priest of course.

posted by ted

"Satan" was borrowed by the early Hebrews from one of the early surrounding tribes; Mesopotamians, Babylonians etc. He was borrowed as a character in order to explain the origins of evil and give evil a focus. He is a myth used to explain evil. He is also a myth used by folks who, as has been mentioned, do not want to take responsibility for their own actions.

Actually you put it better

also posted by ted

In Genesis evil was cast as a serpent. It was the serpent who tempted Eve (also a myth). One ought not to trust a talking snake. This also gave us a reason or understanding why snakes have no legs and crawl on their bellies.

It's been a misogynists excuse ever since.

Christians and their ilk have been blaming the temptor ever since. to use an anecdote I remember having a conversation with a lay preacher-I used to be a superstore manager-he asked me if the self service stores should not take the blame for all the shoplifting because of the open way things were displayed. making it too tempting. I picked up his coffee cup and asked him I have now stolen your coffee is it my fault I am a thief or yours for temptimg me and making it easy. It was like watching a light bulb go on, he just hadn't thought about it. Blame the victim not the criminal.

A rapist attacks a woman because she wears a short skirt and must therefore be asking for it. How many would say he had a good point? It wasn''t his fault he was tempted and the devil made him do it

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 5:59 am

The devil doesnt make us DO anything. We have free will. What is that feeling a child has when hes 9, standing in front of a candy counter, and battling with himself. Should I steal some or not? What force owns the mind of a serial killer.when hes in the process of dismembering someone?

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 3:11 am

posted by weeder

The devil doesnt make us DO anything. We have free will. What is that feeling a child has when hes 9, standing in front of a candy counter, and battling with himself. Should I steal some or not? What force owns the mind of a serial killer.when hes in the process of dismembering someone?

So we have free will unless a serial killer who presumably has had his free will taken away? In which case should they not be exorcised rather than imporisoned or executed?

When a pro-life extremist decides to blow up a doctor because they are carrying out abortions is it god or the devil whispering in their ear? When the saudi terrorists flew in to the twin towers was it god or the devil whispering in thier ear telling them it was ok? or do you believe the god of Islam is really the devil.

If it is the devil making people do wrong why are so many religious people convinced they have the god given right to condemn some poor unfortinate fallen in to the ways of the devil and that only they know what god is really saying.?

Some things I think you need to agree to disagree on. I can accept that you believe in god and the devil. I don't.

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 4:13 am

gmc wrote: So we have free will unless a serial killer who presumably has had his free will taken away? In which case should they not be exorcised rather than imporisoned or executed?

When a pro-life extremist decides to blow up a doctor because they are carrying out abortions is it god or the devil whispering in their ear? When the saudi terrorists flew in to the twin towers was it god or the devil whispering in thier ear telling them it was ok? or do you believe the god of Islam is really the devil.

If it is the devil making people do wrong why are so many religious people convinced they have the god given right to condemn some poor unfortinate fallen in to the ways of the devil and that only they know what god is really saying.?

Some things I think you need to agree to disagree on. I can accept that you believe in god and the devil. I don't.
The devil doesnt make anyone do anything. Free will is never taken away. We always have it. When a man is committing the acts you describe , he is way beyond the place of hearing anything guide him. He has made the choice regarding which Team he is on.The spiritual battle is lost. I avoid religious people

they are deluded into thinking they have some special connection to God.

I accept that you do not believe in God or the devil. I have no interest ever, in convincing anyone to believe anything I do. Everyone has the right to form their own opinions.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 6:13 am

posted by weeder

they are deluded into thinking they have some special connection to God.

I accept that you do not believe in God or the devil. I have no interest ever, in convincing anyone to believe anything I do. Everyone has the right to form their own opinions.

Thank you for not trying to convince me that the devil is influencing me. I like such discussions but quite a few religious types can't discuss without frothing at the mouth, nice change.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sun Jan 16, 2005 4:02 pm

As a Christian Pluralist the only problem I see is that some are tarring all Christians with the same brush. Please remember there are those of us who follow a different approach to our faith. I have already commented on the devil so no further comment needs to be made there.

Serial killers like Olsen or Ted Bundy are evil because of what they do. I suspect that in truth they really are not totally responsible for their actions. They are psychopaths and sociopaths. They have a mal functioning brain. No sane person would follow them and do like they do. Neither is it the devil.

I believe that we really don't understand these folks but one thing is for sure they should never be allowed to walk the streets again. They can't control themselves and they can't be controlled by society except within the confines of a lock down institution.

Let us respect the honest and truly faithful of all the major religions. After all they too are seeking God, if you so believe.

Shalom

Ted :-6

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Sun Jan 16, 2005 4:34 pm

gmc wrote: is he gay?

It's a cop out beloved of the religious. It wasn't me it was the devil made me do it. Not I decided to lie/steal whatever knowing full well it wrong but I thought no one would find out, no it has to be the devil misled me. Who is going to tell you what is evil and what is not-why a priest of course.

Actually you put it better

It's been a misogynists excuse ever since.

Christians and their ilk have been blaming the temptor ever since. to use an anecdote I remember having a conversation with a lay preacher-I used to be a superstore manager-he asked me if the self service stores should not take the blame for all the shoplifting because of the open way things were displayed. making it too tempting. I picked up his coffee cup and asked him I have now stolen your coffee is it my fault I am a thief or yours for temptimg me and making it easy. It was like watching a light bulb go on, he just hadn't thought about it. Blame the victim not the criminal.

A rapist attacks a woman because she wears a short skirt and must therefore be asking for it. How many would say he had a good point? It wasn''t his fault he was tempted and the devil made him do itLeave it you :wah: :wah:

polycarp · Post by **polycarp** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 10:49 am

I believe that a fallen angel called Lucifer was cast out of Heaven after rebelling against the Almighty. Today this fallen angel is behind all the terrible things in this world. And as a writer once said "the devil's cleverest trick is to decieve people that he doesn't exist". The devil is alive and well on planet earth and is going about all his machinations unabated.

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 11:18 am

That is absolutely and simply correct. I need to spend a couple of days with someone who incorporates this heightened awarness into the lives they lead.

There are so many other things that do not need to be explained once a human has grasped and accepted this reality. It is horrible to observe people in the

rubble of a tradgedy.. stand there not understanding why such a terrible event has occured.. and not knowing the entity that is enjoying the human suffering.

polycarp · Post by **polycarp** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 12:49 pm

Hello Weeder, thanks for you response. There is definately some negative force behind all the evil in this world. Man can't just be so wicked and heartless without being teleguided by an unseen (negative) force.

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 12:57 pm

And after the Holocaust, many stopped believing there is a God. How many more today after 9/11, Tsumani or other disasters refuse to believe anymore?

polycarp · Post by **polycarp** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 1:14 pm

Why do we capitalise on negations to doubt the existence of God? Why won't positive outcomes like the beauty of sunrise and sun set, the number of safe flights arround the world everyday, successful delivery of babies, recovery from illnessess etc make us equally believe that God exists?

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 1:23 pm

Because firstly most humans do not hold on to the memory of magnificent occurences for very long. Tradgedys have greater impact. These events are also food for mass negitivity... which prevents spiritual growth or even simple joy.

Which increases the need for anti depressant drugs... which increases the use of drugs amongst youth... which increases infidelity .. because everyone is desperately seeking some kind of joy. Which makes that bad guy that we are talking about .. very pleased to have so many souls so miserable. It is very similar to mass destruction. In a very subtle and insidious way. You cant fight something y

ou cant see. You cant recognize something you dont even acknowledge.

koan · Post by **koan** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 2:26 pm

As I believe that we are, in our entire being, a piece of God incarnate and I also believe that everything including evil comes from one "place", then I must believe that we are also an incarnation of evil as well as good. I can not blame my capacity to do evil on an entity separate from myself. If I am compelled to look at a car accident it is a compulsion of my own, not one placed in my soul. I think most evil comes from the helplessness of being trapped in the limited state of being human. It can make us act like caged animals.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 3:00 pm

Weeder :-6

I must take issue with one of your points. Depression is a very serious illness that is caused by a chemical imbalance in the human brain. I say it is serious because not only does it lead to a very miserable and inexplicable existence but can lead to death.

Shalom

Ted :-6

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:20 pm

My apologies for being misunderstood. Spiritual discord may lead to depression..

However that is not the only cause of depression.. I am aware and most sympathetic to that reality.

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 3:02 pm

Kat wrote: So much for the three things that are never discussed in public: sex, politics and religion.

First, religion and God are not the same. In fact, it is safe to say that God and religion are polar opposites. Have doubts? Look at the current situation in the Catholic Church. (No, I am not picking on the Catholic Church. It was the first example that I thought everyone would be familiar with.)

With that out of the way, yes I believe there is a devil, as I believe there is a God. We see examples of both on a daily basis. Its all the Irish ever discuss Religion, Sex and Politics in that order. But religion has been dumped in the last ten years.

koan · Post by **koan** » Sun Jan 30, 2005 1:01 am

capt_buzzard wrote: Its all the Irish ever discuss Religion, Sex and Politics in that order. But religion has been dumped in the last ten years.
Why don't you start a new one? That'll get 'em talking again.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Wed Feb 02, 2005 2:58 pm

LUKE wrote: Anastrophe; I percieve that you have the ability to "impress" anyone who may be able to "understand" your "thought process". However, there are many of us who are being "deprived" of your input because most of us (I would consider) are not in your "intelectual arena". You'd be so much more appreciated if you'd lower the "throne" just a bit. Thank ye sweet thang!!!just ran across this. various responses come to mind, some not repeatable here.

i am who i am. i'm not going to assume my audience is composed of children, thus 'dumbing down' my rhetoric to reach the lowest common denominator (or someone else's perception of what 'rilly smart' is). i'm not a TV news anchor who must deliver reports to an audience assumed to have a tenth grade educational level. i don't consider my writing to be hard to understand. i take great pains to express myself as clearly as possible (of course within the context of a given discussion). If something i've written is hard to understand - perhaps presumably the word lebenswelt - well then by all means type 'www.google.com' into your browser and bone up on it. Education starts at home - and home is your mind. I love reading stuff that's over my head - I then spend hours traversing the net on wings of inspiration.

put that in your broadband pipe and packetize it.

Saintsman · Post by **Saintsman** » Tue Feb 08, 2005 7:57 am

capt_buzzard wrote: Most of us here believe in God. The Christians and Jews and some believe in Allah ect. But how many of us believe in The Devil - Lucifer - Satan?

Without going into a ten page answer, I will submit that the conclusion of my answer would be ... and is ... yes, there is evil and if you want to call it the devil, I guess that is okay, but there is NO such thing as an eternal place of punishment believed by many (through fear mostly) as HELL! If God were distraut with your behavior on earth and decided not to forgive you nor give you another chance, why would a Perfect Creator need to become vengeful, finite, destuctive and overall that of a merciless cruel inflictor of severe pain and torture for ..... AN ETERNITY? Doesn't sound like the all Omnipresent, Omnipotent and ultimate Almighty forward moving and highest enlightened Being I learned about or have felt in my heart as him being. Yes on evil (devil if you like that word) But NO on Hell or a devil that will be eternally cast out or away from God. In order for God to be whole and complete, no parts can be missing and God doesn't create inperfections.

Thanks for the question. I enjoyed it.

koan · Post by **koan** » Tue Feb 08, 2005 10:27 am

Saintsman wrote: Without going into a ten page answer, I will submit that the conclusion of my answer would be ... and is ... yes, there is evil and if you want to call it the devil, I guess that is okay, but there is NO such thing as an eternal place of punishment believed by many (through fear mostly) as HELL! If God were distraut with your behavior on earth and decided not to forgive you nor give you another chance, why would a Perfect Creator need to become vengeful, finite, destuctive and overall that of a merciless cruel inflictor of severe pain and torture for ..... AN ETERNITY? Doesn't sound like the all Omnipresent, Omnipotent and ultimate Almighty forward moving and highest enlightened Being I learned about or have felt in my heart as him being. Yes on evil (devil if you like that word) But NO on Hell or a devil that will be eternally cast out or away from God. In order for God to be whole and complete, no parts can be missing and God doesn't create inperfections.

Thanks for the question. I enjoyed it.

Very good distinction. Many good points here. :yh_clap

Jives · Post by **Jives** » Tue Feb 08, 2005 10:32 am

I believe in Satan, and specifically the Dantean version of Hell. A place where God sends insane souls to try to get their attention.

If a soul can learn enough about evil in Hell, then they can climb past Satan in the final bolgia and follow the chimney to Heaven. As shown to Dante by the angel Virgil.

Not that I'm planning on going there, I'm trying to be the best Christian I can. But it's nice to know that God never gives up on us, even after we go to Hell.