What?!?!?!?

DesignerGal · Post by **DesignerGal** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 6:22 pm

This is a personal subject for me. But here is what I am worried about: Now that it is illegal we are going to have teenagers and others dying and getting extremely sick left and right because they are going to go to the "alley" to get an abortion!

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 6:32 pm

Scrat wrote: I can't believe we're going here again. This is unbefreakinglievable!!! Nobody has a right to tell a woman what to do with her body. Period.

I do believe in parental conscent in these matters and I certainly am against taxpayers subsidizing womens rights to an abortion (I don't like any kind of tax at all. If we had a VAT tax on cloths I would wear rabbit skins) but I won't ever say a woman can't have an abortion if she wants one.

Sure you will, unless you want to make it state-funded.

Look, our Constitution leaves anything not specifically designated to the fed gov't, to the state gov't. There are 50 of them, last I heard. There's no way all of them will make abortion illegal.

I look forward to the day when citizenship is bestowed at life, rather than birth. Then the question will be settled.

Alfred · Post by **Alfred** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 6:35 pm

Unruh said she believes most South Dakota women want the state to ban abortion, and many who have had abortions Ã¢â‚¬Å“wish someone would have stopped them.Ã¢â‚¬

yet a further example of people not taking responsibility for there own decisions.

DesignerGal · Post by **DesignerGal** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 6:45 pm

Alfred wrote: yet a further example of people not taking responsibility for there own decisions.

Its not that simple Alfred.

BTS · Post by **BTS** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 6:49 pm

WHAT?

I just sent youa link in another thread about a man you defend for far worse crimes against women than this!!!!!!!!!!

SO................ I say!!!!!!!!!!

WHAT?

Alfred · Post by **Alfred** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 6:50 pm

DesignerGal wrote: Its not that simple Alfred.

what part of it?

i might agree with you somewhere.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 6:52 pm

Scrat wrote: Let's make it really complicated and and bring the cowardly halfmen that do their part into this.
Do you mean holding men responsible? Can't force responsibility without a voice in the choice, y'know.

DesignerGal · Post by **DesignerGal** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 6:52 pm

What about women who are raped? What about women who are raped by their fathers and get pregnant?

Alfred · Post by **Alfred** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 6:59 pm

DesignerGal wrote: What about women who are raped? What about women who are raped by their fathers and get pregnant?

i'm not debating that part. i agree with you there.

Leslee Unruh, president of the Alpha Center, a Sioux Falls pregnancy counseling agency that tries to steer women away from abortion, said most of the abortions performed in South Dakota do not stem from rape or even failed contraception, but are simply Ã¢â‚¬Å“conveniences.Ã¢â‚¬

these are the same women who want abortion made illegal, when they regret there own 'convinient' abortions.

perhaps hidden factors played a part in making the abortion 'convinient' but i'm not seeing them mentioned.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:04 pm

Alfred wrote: i'm not debating that part. i agree with you there.

these are the same women who want abortion made illegal, when they regret there own 'convinient' abortions.

perhaps hidden factors played a part in making the abortion 'convinient' but i'm not seeing them mentioned.
Can't support ya there, Alfred. I'll never support banning a practice just because it's too convenient to resist. People make poor decisions all the time about all sorts of things. Not a reason to ban anything.

Alfred · Post by **Alfred** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:06 pm

Accountable wrote: Can't support ya there, Alfred. I'll never support banning a practice just because it's too convenient to resist. People make poor decisions all the time about all sorts of things. Not a reason to ban anything.

i'm not supporting the ban.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:08 pm

Alfred wrote: i'm not supporting the ban.
Sorry I made assumptions. So where are you on this issue?

Alfred · Post by **Alfred** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:11 pm

Accountable wrote: Sorry I made assumptions. So where are you on this issue?

i'm pro-abortion.

her body, her choice.

no one elses.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:16 pm

Alfred wrote: i'm pro-abortion.

her body, her choice.

no one elses.
DUH! Sorry, it's late. for me anyway.

BTS · Post by **BTS** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:18 pm

Alfred wrote: i'm pro-abortion.

her body, her choice.

no one elses.

Ya Al............

Most Pro abortion supporters were NEVER aborted!!!!!!!!!!

BTS · Post by **BTS** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:19 pm

BTS wrote: Ya Al............

Most Pro abortion supporters were NEVER aborted!!!!!!!!!!

OOPS..............ALL i meant

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:19 pm

Scrat, you still here?

Alfred · Post by **Alfred** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:26 pm

BTS wrote: Ya Al............

All Pro abortion supporters were NEVER aborted!!!!!!!!!!

interesting and logical fact,

but considering that i was never even close to conciousness during my mothers pregnancy i can't say that it would have bothered me if my mother had chosen to abort me.

until a child that is even remotely aware of his/her surroundings is discovered the choice should always remain to be the mothers.

in my oppinion anyway, you obviously believe different.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:32 pm

Alfred wrote: interesting and logical fact,

but considering that i was never even close to conciousness during my mothers pregnancy i can't say that it would have bothered me if my mother had chosen to abort me.

until a child that is even remotely aware of his/her surroundings is discovered the choice should always remain to be the mothers.

in my oppinion anyway, you obviously believe different.
That happens prior to birth, in most cases, as I understand it.

Alfred · Post by **Alfred** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:36 pm

Accountable wrote: That happens prior to birth, in most cases, as I understand it.

ok i'm quite probably wrong here, but this is always where the discussion reaches its boundries.

who here can tell me precisely when life begins?

natures too discrete for that.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:39 pm

Alfred wrote: ok i'm quite probably wrong here, but this is always where the discussion reaches its boundries.

who here can tell me precisely when life begins?

natures too discrete for that.
Precisely when the DNA strand is joined. That's when sperm penetrates egg. At that point it is scientifically identifiable as human, male or female, etc. It has life and grows in a healthy environment as well.

That's why I argue that the embryo should be granted citizenship, with all the rights and protections of children.

Alfred · Post by **Alfred** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:41 pm

Accountable wrote: Precisely when the DNA strand is joined. That's when sperm penetrates egg. At that point it is scientifically identifiable as human, male or female, etc. It has life and grows in a healthy environment as well.

That's why I argue that the embryo should be granted citizenship, with all the rights and protections of children.

its human but is it living.

even dead cells still have human DNA, but you can't murder a dead man.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:45 pm

Alfred wrote: its human but is it living.

even dead cells still have human DNA, but you can't murder a dead man.Dead cells don't reproduce. Only living tissue does that. It doesn't have to be able to breath air to be alive. Think of fish. Think of humans on respirators.

Alfred · Post by **Alfred** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:48 pm

Accountable wrote: Dead cells don't reproduce. Only living tissue does that. It doesn't have to be able to breath air to be alive. Think of fish. Think of humans on respirators.

fish still breathe, humans on respirators still get air in there lungs.

fingernails and hair still continue to grow even after death.

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:50 pm

Alfred wrote:

fingernails and hair still continue to grow even after death.that's a myth. they only APPEAR to grow due to shrinkage of the corpse.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:50 pm

Alfred wrote: fish still breathe, humans on respirators still get air in there lungs.

fingernails and hair still continue to grow even after death.
I'm not 100%, but I'm pretty sure that's a myth.

Still doesn't negate the fact that the embryo grows and develops into a baby, just as a baby grows and develops into an adult.

Alfred · Post by **Alfred** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:05 pm

Accountable wrote: I'm not 100%, but I'm pretty sure that's a myth.

Still doesn't negate the fact that the embryo grows and develops into a baby, just as a baby grows and develops into an adult.

that it does,

however the embryo is uncappable of living outside the mothers womb, therefore would be classified as part of the mother, making it her decision to do what she wants with the baby.

BTS · Post by **BTS** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:06 pm

Alfred wrote: interesting and logical fact,

but considering that i was never even close to conciousness during my mothers pregnancy i can't say that it would have bothered me if my mother had chosen to abort me.

until a child that is even remotely aware of his/her surroundings is discovered the choice should always remain to be the mothers.

in my oppinion anyway, you obviously believe different.

So the mother is god king?

What if the father wants the child to live and not be aborted and is willing to take the baby for his own? He has NO rights? If so/ I ask WHY not?

Now, if your mother aborted you, then you would not be debating this issue huh? Digest that one pal...

You feel now, you breath, you LIVE..........What about the ones who had no choice in the matter... Yes you are right, they feel noting NOW........ BUTT can you say they NEVER felt? If so, prove it!

Just a few thoughts to chew on...

And oh ya...

Your pride ain't hard ta swallow...once you chew on it a while..

Hank W Jr.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:08 pm

Alfred wrote: that it does,

however the embryo is uncappable of living outside the mothers womb, therefore would be classified as part of the mother, making it her decision to do what she wants with the baby.
Separate DNA. Separate identity. Separate person. Makes all the difference in the world.

Ready to change music?

When does the sperm donor become involved, if at all?

nvalleyvee · Post by **nvalleyvee** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:09 pm

Accountable wrote: Separate DNA. Separate identity. Separate person. Makes all the difference in the world.

Ready to change music?

When does the sperm donor become involved, if at all?

When the sperm donor wants to be a father.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:12 pm

nvalleyvee wrote: When the sperm donor wants to be a father.
I think we're on the same side of this issue.

But, what if he doesn't want to be the father, and the mother decides to give birth. Is he responsible then?

DesignerGal · Post by **DesignerGal** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:13 pm

I will tell my personal story.

When I was 16 I got pregnant after only twice having sex. The guy denied that he even knew me. His parents said I was crazy and that I got their son started on drugs (I never even did drugs!) My aunt was with me when I found out. She tried to connect with me and tell me it wasnt that big a deal and we would work it out. I called my mom and she said she was in shock and had to go deal with it. I lived with my abusive father and all he did was call me a whore and slut and said "no ownder all these guys call the house".

He made me get an abortion. I distanced myself from any feelings at the time because my family was in such turmoil. (Dad was recently convicted of molesting my stepsister, my mom was married to a verbal/physical abuser), I felt like I had no one. So I did it. Its 13 years later and there isnt a day that goes by that I dont regret it or think about it. I will NEVER forgive myself for what I did. I used to think it was okay and no big deal but the older I get, I just want to tell these teenagers, "I'll take the baby. Just come live at my house and no one has to even know you are pregnant!" You all know how I am desperatley trying to have a baby and this is possibly why this haunts me to this day. I dont expect anyone to know what I went through or even tell me its okay. But its my heartache and maybe if someone else hears my story they will know that while it may be a quick fix, the guilt lasts forever. And just for the record, I do believe that its a woman's body and she decides whats best for her. But they should be aware of the menatl consequesnces that follows.

Alfred · Post by **Alfred** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:14 pm

BTS wrote: So the mother is god king?

What if the father wants the child to live and not be aborted and is willing to take the baby for his own? He has NO rights? If so/ I ask WHY not?

Now, if your mother aborted you, then you would not be debating this issue huh? Digest that one pal...

You feel now, you breath, you LIVE..........What about the ones who had no choice in the matter... Yes you are right, they feel noting NOW........ BUTT can you say they NEVER felt? If so, prove it!

Just a few thoughts to chew on...

And oh ya...

Your pride ain't hard ta swallow...once you chew on it a while..

Hank W Jr.

legaly yes the mother is god, if the father wants to keep the baby then it's up to him to convince her to keep the baby and go through with the pregnancy.

and no if my mother aborted me then we would not be debating this issue, we however are not the only ones debating it so what would it matter had i never have been.

can you say they ever did feel, prove it.

my pride?

what does that have to do with anything, i don't mind being wrong. prove me wrong and i'll accept it, however until you prove me wrong i hold my belief that it is the mothers right.

i am allowed to have my own oppinion right, or must i ask your permission.

BTS · Post by **BTS** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:17 pm

"and no if my mother aborted me then we would not be debating this issue, we however are not the only ones debating it so what would it matter had i never have been.

I dunno......... would it matter 2 u now?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:19 pm

DesignerGal wrote: I will tell my personal story.

When I was 16 I got pregnant after only twice having sex. The guy denied that he even knew me. His parents said I was crazy and that I got their son started on drugs (I never even did drugs!) My aunt was with me when I found out. She tried to connect with me and tell me it wasnt that big a deal and we would work it out. I called my mom and she said she was in shock and had to go deal with it. I lived with my abusive father and all he did was call me a whore and slut and said "no ownder all these guys call the house".

He made me get an abortion. I distanced myself from any feelings at the time because my family was in such turmoil. (Dad was recently convicted of molesting my stepsister, my mom was married to a verbal/physical abuser), I felt like I had no one. So I did it. Its 13 years later and there isnt a day that goes by that I dont regret it or think about it. I will NEVER forgive myself for what I did. I used to think it was okay and no big deal but the older I get, I just want to tell these teenagers, "I'll take the baby. Just come live at my house and no one has to even know you are pregnant!" You all know how I am desperatley trying to have a baby and this is possibly why this haunts me to this day. I dont expect anyone to know what I went through or even tell me its okay. But its my heartache and maybe if someone else hears my story they will know that while it may be a quick fix, the guilt lasts forever. And just for the record, I do believe that its a woman's body and she decides whats best for her. But they should be aware of the menatl consequesnces that follows.Your father is/was a bastard. You mom wasn't much better if at all. You grew up pretty good despite them. You're making somebody mighty proud ... me, if no one else. :yh_flower

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:21 pm

Alfred wrote: legaly yes the mother is god, if the father wants to keep the baby then it's up to him to convince her to keep the baby and go through with the pregnancy.

and no if my mother aborted me then we would not be debating this issue, we however are not the only ones debating it so what would it matter had i never have been.

can you say they ever did feel, prove it.

my pride?

what does that have to do with anything, i don't mind being wrong. prove me wrong and i'll accept it, however until you prove me wrong i hold my belief that it is the mothers right.

i am allowed to have my own oppinion right, or must i ask your permission.If the baby is born, would the father be responsible for child support?

Alfred · Post by **Alfred** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:22 pm

Accountable wrote: If the baby is born, would the father be responsible for child support?
are you asking for a legal or moral response?

DesignerGal · Post by **DesignerGal** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:25 pm

Accountable wrote: Your father is/was a bastard. You mom wasn't much better if at all. You grew up pretty good despite them. You're making somebody mighty proud ... me, if no one else. :yh_flower

I actually was just talking to my mom about this tonight after I saw this thread and she has always provided enough love for me to compensate for my dad. SHe started bawling and said she should have done more and would I plese forgive her. I think she was just as out of it as me. Her last two husband have beat her down mentally so bad that she cant make decisions for herself. I dont blame her or hold her accountable. It was really tough for her too. My mom is the most wonderful woman I know. She will feel guilty as well for the rest of her life for not stopping me so please dont judge her. She has been a rock after the molestation bullshit with my piece of **** dad.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:28 pm

Alfred wrote: are you asking for a legal or moral response?
Take your pick. I'll follow your lead.

nvalleyvee · Post by **nvalleyvee** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:30 pm

Accountable wrote: I think we're on the same side of this issue.

But, what if he doesn't want to be the father, and the mother decides to give birth. Is he responsible then?

The mother is responsible and at no time do I think the father should be responsible for any supprt. There was a difference of responsibility. He wanted an abortion and she did not.....WHO is responsible for the life of the child? DUH...the mother. So yes my opinion is that if the father wants an abortion - he should not be held accountable in any monetary fashion.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:31 pm

DesignerGal wrote: I actually was just talking to my mom about this tonight after I saw this thread and she has always provided enough love for me to compensate for my dad. SHe started bawling and said she should have done more and would I plese forgive her. I think she was just as out of it as me. Her last two husband have beat her down mentally so bad that she cant make decisions for herself. I dont blame her or hold her accountable. It was really tough for her too. My mom is the most wonderful woman I know. She will feel guilty as well for the rest of her life for not stopping me so please dont judge her. She has been a rock after the molestation bullshit with my piece of **** dad.

Great for her! Doesn't change what she did, but one of my favorite axioms (I think I'm using the word right) is "It's not the mistake that counts, it's the recovery." Sounds like she recovered well. :yh_flower

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:31 pm

nvalleyvee wrote: The mother is responsible and at no time do I think the father should be responsible for any supprt. There was a difference of responsibility. He wanted an abortion and she did not.....WHO is responsible for the life of the child? DUH...the mother. So yes my opinion is that if the father wants an abortion - he should not be held accountable in any monetary fashion.
I love consistency. :-6

DesignerGal · Post by **DesignerGal** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:37 pm

Accountable wrote: Great for her! Doesn't change what she did, but one of my favorite axioms (I think I'm using the word right) is "It's not the mistake that counts, it's the recovery." Sounds like she recovered well. :yh_flower

I dont know if she will ever recover. She loves me so much. She is like the best mom ever. I feel worst about the abortion and she is probably the only person that feels worse than I do. My dad told my mom for years how worthless and stupid she was and I dont think she had the courage to stand up to him. I think maybe he beat her down so bad and manipulated her into thinking he knew best when he actually didnt.

I dont know why you are so kind to me but this is something thats hard to talk about. It only makes it easy because I dont have to face any of you guys, even though I know most of you would embrace me because well, you are all so damn supportive, encouraging, etc...I REALLY appreciate it.

nvalleyvee · Post by **nvalleyvee** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:44 pm

OK - I just thought of this out in my own strange way.

1. If the woman wants the child and the man does not - it is her child.

2. If the man wants the child and the woman does not then she should have the child and give it to the man - it is his child.

3. If they both want the child........just remember the person you are splitting with is not the person you loved when the child was born.

4. Always hold your child as separate from you and your ex-spouse. They are to be held in the middle and free from harm.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:44 pm

DesignerGal wrote: I dont know if she will ever recover. She loves me so much. She is like the best mom ever. I feel worst about the abortion and she is probably the only person that feels worse than I do. My dad told my mom for years how worthless and stupid she was and I dont think she had the courage to stand up to him. I think maybe he beat her down so bad and manipulated her into thinking he knew best when he actually didnt.

I dont know why you are so kind to me but this is something thats hard to talk about. It only makes it easy because I dont have to face any of you guys, even though I know most of you would embrace me because well, you are all so damn supportive, encouraging, etc...I REALLY appreciate it.
I know your father. Different name, different face, but the same personality.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:46 pm

nvalleyvee wrote: OK - I just thought of this out in my own strange way.

1. If the woman wants the child and the man does not - it is her child.

2. If the man wants the child and the woman does not then she should have the child and give it to the man - it is his child.

3. If they both want the child........just remember the person you are splitting with is not the person you loved when the child was born.

4. Always hold your child as separate from you and your ex-spouse. They are to be held in the middle and free from harm.
I asked this a few months back. If the woman wants an abortion, and the man wants the child, should he be able to take her to court?

valerie · Post by **valerie** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:46 pm

Forgive me, DG, but there are those who have an abortion and don't

feel guilt the rest of their lives... who know beyond a doubt that it was

the right decision for them at the time...

I am sorry you've had to go through all you've been through...