Accountable wrote: 1. Translation: You don't like what I like so you can't possibly be Catholic. :yh_rotfl
2. I'll assume the rest is similar bloviation and move on.1. It's not a matter of 'like' but of experience. A Catholic would not have had the experiences they describe.
2. Both of those, the assuming and the moving, are, as far as I know, certainly allowed here.
Have a safe trip.
How can...
How can...
Bronwen,
I attended Tydavnet National School and Edenmore National School Co.Monaghan, Ireland. I also attended St. Macartans College Monaghan. Out of respect for the Principals and priests involved I don't think it is respectable to name them over the internet.
Seriously, I have no desire to debate with you because you have not treated me with respect in the slightest way so in response I'm going to ignore you. You have no idea who I am. I have no idea who you are. If you wish to call my former catholicism into question thats your business because frankly I have no hard proof which I can display over the internet as to who I am and vice versa. We could all be liars. I could be the President of Azerbaijan for all you know.
I attended Tydavnet National School and Edenmore National School Co.Monaghan, Ireland. I also attended St. Macartans College Monaghan. Out of respect for the Principals and priests involved I don't think it is respectable to name them over the internet.
Seriously, I have no desire to debate with you because you have not treated me with respect in the slightest way so in response I'm going to ignore you. You have no idea who I am. I have no idea who you are. If you wish to call my former catholicism into question thats your business because frankly I have no hard proof which I can display over the internet as to who I am and vice versa. We could all be liars. I could be the President of Azerbaijan for all you know.
How can...
Gaius wrote: You have no idea who I am. I have no idea who you are. If you wish to call my former catholicism into question thats your business because frankly I have no hard proof which I can display over the internet as to who I am and vice versa. We could all be liars. I could be the President of Azerbaijan for all you know.Absolutely correct, this is an anonymous forum, and I never asked you to identify yourself.
I have no knowledge of the Irish parochial school system nor do I even know, since Ireland is overwhelmingly Catholic, whether there are separate public and Catholic schools. I certainly know, however, that the Roman Missal is not used in primary school classes, nor is it anything remotely resembling a 'political propaganda novel'.
Whether or not you continue the exchange, if you think an apology is in order, then I apologize. I think, however, that common courtesy and common sense dictates that when you post something on a DISCUSSION forum that is in the nature of an attack, you should be willing to support your position, which is all I really asked you to do.
I am very defensive of my Church when I feel it is being maligned UNJUSTLY. Indeed, I would feel the same way about any other Chruch or organization. Sincere, reasoned, legitimate criticism is something else again.
My own experience, for example, has always been that it is the Protestants rather thean the Catholics who misuse the Bible, but that is a matter of opinion and open to legitimate discussion on both sides.
I have no knowledge of the Irish parochial school system nor do I even know, since Ireland is overwhelmingly Catholic, whether there are separate public and Catholic schools. I certainly know, however, that the Roman Missal is not used in primary school classes, nor is it anything remotely resembling a 'political propaganda novel'.
Whether or not you continue the exchange, if you think an apology is in order, then I apologize. I think, however, that common courtesy and common sense dictates that when you post something on a DISCUSSION forum that is in the nature of an attack, you should be willing to support your position, which is all I really asked you to do.
I am very defensive of my Church when I feel it is being maligned UNJUSTLY. Indeed, I would feel the same way about any other Chruch or organization. Sincere, reasoned, legitimate criticism is something else again.
My own experience, for example, has always been that it is the Protestants rather thean the Catholics who misuse the Bible, but that is a matter of opinion and open to legitimate discussion on both sides.
How can...
I can tell you now the Roman Missal (Excuse my earlier spelling) was used in classroom. We were told at the age of eleven that the Roman Missal is the word of God.
The Word of God! Is it any wonder they turned me away from the church?
"Whether or not you continue the exchange, if you think an apology is in order, then I apologize. I think, however, that common courtesy and common sense dictates that when you post something that is in the nature of an attack, you should be willing to support your position, which is all I really asked you to do."
Basically you called me a liar. Thats one thing I really dislike.
"I am very defensive of my Church when I feel it is being maligned UNJUSTLY. Indeed, I would feel the same way about any other Chruch or organization. Sincere, reasoned, legitimate criticism is something else again."
I don't feel I am maligning your church unjustly. The Catholic church is reponsible for some truly terrible things. The aids epidemic and the contraception ban is a testament to the futility and vanity of the Church. Where exactly does it say in the bible that 'Semen is holy. No semen shall be spilled unless inside the womb of a woman' It's ridiculous. Where did Jesus say his followers (preachers) could not marry? Where does it talk about purgatory in the bible? What about limbo?
The fact of the matter is the Catholic church has stood in the way of progress for centuries. It benefitted from not telling people the certain truths that were in the bible and instead picking out the bits that suited their own interests. The Roman Catholic Church is not a church but a right-wing political party.
That said, obviously I don't think all catholics share the narrow-mindedness of the church. My father for one, has lived his life without harming another soul. He disagree's with homosexuality, but doesn't shout it from the rooftops. He has worked hard in his life and raised a family, and I just might be the first person in my family to go to college. If my father is the common, down to earth regular catholic guy, then we can apply a saying used by people after the first world war to describe the soldiers in the trench's:
"They are lions led by baboon's"
The Word of God! Is it any wonder they turned me away from the church?
"Whether or not you continue the exchange, if you think an apology is in order, then I apologize. I think, however, that common courtesy and common sense dictates that when you post something that is in the nature of an attack, you should be willing to support your position, which is all I really asked you to do."
Basically you called me a liar. Thats one thing I really dislike.
"I am very defensive of my Church when I feel it is being maligned UNJUSTLY. Indeed, I would feel the same way about any other Chruch or organization. Sincere, reasoned, legitimate criticism is something else again."
I don't feel I am maligning your church unjustly. The Catholic church is reponsible for some truly terrible things. The aids epidemic and the contraception ban is a testament to the futility and vanity of the Church. Where exactly does it say in the bible that 'Semen is holy. No semen shall be spilled unless inside the womb of a woman' It's ridiculous. Where did Jesus say his followers (preachers) could not marry? Where does it talk about purgatory in the bible? What about limbo?
The fact of the matter is the Catholic church has stood in the way of progress for centuries. It benefitted from not telling people the certain truths that were in the bible and instead picking out the bits that suited their own interests. The Roman Catholic Church is not a church but a right-wing political party.
That said, obviously I don't think all catholics share the narrow-mindedness of the church. My father for one, has lived his life without harming another soul. He disagree's with homosexuality, but doesn't shout it from the rooftops. He has worked hard in his life and raised a family, and I just might be the first person in my family to go to college. If my father is the common, down to earth regular catholic guy, then we can apply a saying used by people after the first world war to describe the soldiers in the trench's:
"They are lions led by baboon's"
How can...
Gaius wrote: I can tell you now the Roman Missal (Excuse my earlier spelling) was used in classroom. We were told at the age of eleven that the Roman Missal is the word of God.
The Word of God! Is it any wonder they turned me away from the church?
Well, G, that is what I'm trying to find out. What exactly is in the Roman Missal that turned you away?
Are you sure you are not thinking of some other book, a catechism perhaps? Once again, the Roman Missal is the large book that the priest uses to celebrate Mass. The only way I can imagine that it would be used in a primary school class would be if the priest brought it in one day to show to the students. But that would be something special.
The Word of God! Is it any wonder they turned me away from the church?
Well, G, that is what I'm trying to find out. What exactly is in the Roman Missal that turned you away?
Are you sure you are not thinking of some other book, a catechism perhaps? Once again, the Roman Missal is the large book that the priest uses to celebrate Mass. The only way I can imagine that it would be used in a primary school class would be if the priest brought it in one day to show to the students. But that would be something special.
How can...
We had the local Parish priest come in and teach us religion three times a week. He was actually a nice man, as I remember him. (He moved parish two years ago) That would probably explain it.
Therein lies the problems of including religion in state affairs. Religion should not be taught in a classroom (Unless in a philosophy class)
Therein lies the problems of including religion in state affairs. Religion should not be taught in a classroom (Unless in a philosophy class)
How can...
Bronwen wrote: Well, I'll think it's possible to address both posts at once because they are so similar, so that's what I'll attempt to do.
One thing Catholics always notice, but which may be less apparent to non-Catholics, is that enemies of the Church often claim, especially when posting anonymously (as here), to be former Catholics, hoping, I guess, that this will somehow enhance their credibility. They then almost always go on to spew out the most outrageous venom against the Church, things that any Catholic knows cannot possibly be true.
I have very little doubt that that is the case here. It is highly doubtful that either Gaius or Weeder has ever been near a Catholic Church or school, or if they have been, they must have spent the entire time there in some sort of coma, because there is little or nothing in their descriptions that rings true.
Gaius, I have never been in a Protestant primary school, so I cannot make that comparison based on experience. My understanding is that, if you are talking about contemporary, so-called 'Christian' schools, students there do indeed study the Bible, which is fine, but they are also taught all manner of outrageous nonsense about such things as the age of the universe, the evolution of species, and, indeed, about the Bible itself, claiming that it is, for example, completely factual in matters never intended as anything but allegory, that BOTH of the two contradictory creation accounts are somehow literally true, that BOTH of the completely irreconcilable genealogies of Jesus in Matthew and Luke are somehow true, and that all of scientific fact is somehow 'of the devil'.
Catholic schools have always been in the forefront of science education at ALL levels, from first grade to some of the greatest universities. Catholic school students learn the truth about God, Bible history, Church history, AND scientific fact. In fact, one reason I remain such a loyal Catholic after more than 65 years is that in all of my years in Catholic schools, I was never taught ANYTHING that I later found to be unfactual or misleading. (Of course, I'm referring here to matters of FACT. Matters are faith are a different thing.) The purpose of the more fundamentalistic 'Christian' (Protestant) schools, as I understand their teachings, seems to be intentionally TO mislead, about the facts of science and about the beliefs of their non-fundamentalist fellow Christians, which would include Catholics.
That having been said, the mainline Protestant denoms, especially the Lutherans and Episcopalians, operate some excellent schools also.
The 'Roman Missal' (note the spelling) is the large book that the priest uses at Mass, which contains all of the prayers, benedictions, and Bible readings. It is hardly a 'novel', nor propagandistic, nor used in school classroooms, except possibly in seminaries, nor does it contain any 'misinformation' that I am aware of. Maybe you could be more specific, though I doubt it, since you obviously have no idea of what you're talking about.
I have always been amazed at how irreligious people characterize not only Roman Catholics but in many cases Christians in general, as 'frightened' or living in 'bondage' and 'fear'. Any true Christian knows that the exact opposite is true. Following Christ's teachings and the example of His life is probably the most liberating experience man can find.
Weeder, can you support your assertion that Catholics 'never know that God is everywhere'? Can you give any link to a Catholic source that would support that? Regarding the sacraments, you claim to have received all of them. Can you even NAME the sacraments? Do you even know how many there are? Can you give a brief description of under what circumstances you received each of them? This should be good.
And while you're at it, how do you support your claim that Bibles read by Catholics are 'altered to suit the moral slant of religious politicians cloistered away in the vatican...'. Can you give examples of this? Most modern translations are the result of interdenominational scholarship, Catholic-Protestant or Catholic-Protestant-Jewish. Even in older versions that were the result of Catholic scholarship entirely, I have never known any Bible scholar to make such a claim. What do you know that no one else does? Lay it on us.
Also, you claim to read the Bible 'as it was written'. Where did you study the Hebrew and Greek languages? Do you even know which parts of the Bible were written in Hebrew and which in Greek? Do you understand all of the wordplay and nuance that is lost in the translation to English or other languages? What are your scholarly credentials?
Would either of you care to name the Catholic Church or school that you attended? When did you attend and who was the pastor or principal at the time?
Finally, regarding the abuse scandal, I addressed this recently on another thread, where I said:Lest there be any misunderstanding, I certainly don't consider the Catholic Church to be above or beyond criticism (the recent abuse scandal being a prime example); in fact, if I wished to do so I could start a thread of such criticism myself. But criticism of ANY institution should be based on fact and not deceit. 'Making it up as you go along', as Gaius and Weeder seem to be doing, doesn't cut it, unless you have no sense of honesty or morality.
What possible reason would a person have to lie about having been to mass... or to having been raised catholic? As far as the deceitful allegations go... DO YOU READ?Are you going to tell me that you dont know how many acts of sexual abuse
by priests have been uncovered in the past 2 years? And that it is public knowledge that they were covered up?? Fact is fact. Staying with the church in light of those circumstances revealed.. is like getting up every day, and drinking a little bit of poison. You are a misguided religous zealot. I dont know whether
to put you on my ignore list ( you would be the first person in two years to go there....) or to stick around so that I can try to protect young minds from your influence.
One thing Catholics always notice, but which may be less apparent to non-Catholics, is that enemies of the Church often claim, especially when posting anonymously (as here), to be former Catholics, hoping, I guess, that this will somehow enhance their credibility. They then almost always go on to spew out the most outrageous venom against the Church, things that any Catholic knows cannot possibly be true.
I have very little doubt that that is the case here. It is highly doubtful that either Gaius or Weeder has ever been near a Catholic Church or school, or if they have been, they must have spent the entire time there in some sort of coma, because there is little or nothing in their descriptions that rings true.
Gaius, I have never been in a Protestant primary school, so I cannot make that comparison based on experience. My understanding is that, if you are talking about contemporary, so-called 'Christian' schools, students there do indeed study the Bible, which is fine, but they are also taught all manner of outrageous nonsense about such things as the age of the universe, the evolution of species, and, indeed, about the Bible itself, claiming that it is, for example, completely factual in matters never intended as anything but allegory, that BOTH of the two contradictory creation accounts are somehow literally true, that BOTH of the completely irreconcilable genealogies of Jesus in Matthew and Luke are somehow true, and that all of scientific fact is somehow 'of the devil'.
Catholic schools have always been in the forefront of science education at ALL levels, from first grade to some of the greatest universities. Catholic school students learn the truth about God, Bible history, Church history, AND scientific fact. In fact, one reason I remain such a loyal Catholic after more than 65 years is that in all of my years in Catholic schools, I was never taught ANYTHING that I later found to be unfactual or misleading. (Of course, I'm referring here to matters of FACT. Matters are faith are a different thing.) The purpose of the more fundamentalistic 'Christian' (Protestant) schools, as I understand their teachings, seems to be intentionally TO mislead, about the facts of science and about the beliefs of their non-fundamentalist fellow Christians, which would include Catholics.
That having been said, the mainline Protestant denoms, especially the Lutherans and Episcopalians, operate some excellent schools also.
The 'Roman Missal' (note the spelling) is the large book that the priest uses at Mass, which contains all of the prayers, benedictions, and Bible readings. It is hardly a 'novel', nor propagandistic, nor used in school classroooms, except possibly in seminaries, nor does it contain any 'misinformation' that I am aware of. Maybe you could be more specific, though I doubt it, since you obviously have no idea of what you're talking about.
I have always been amazed at how irreligious people characterize not only Roman Catholics but in many cases Christians in general, as 'frightened' or living in 'bondage' and 'fear'. Any true Christian knows that the exact opposite is true. Following Christ's teachings and the example of His life is probably the most liberating experience man can find.
Weeder, can you support your assertion that Catholics 'never know that God is everywhere'? Can you give any link to a Catholic source that would support that? Regarding the sacraments, you claim to have received all of them. Can you even NAME the sacraments? Do you even know how many there are? Can you give a brief description of under what circumstances you received each of them? This should be good.
And while you're at it, how do you support your claim that Bibles read by Catholics are 'altered to suit the moral slant of religious politicians cloistered away in the vatican...'. Can you give examples of this? Most modern translations are the result of interdenominational scholarship, Catholic-Protestant or Catholic-Protestant-Jewish. Even in older versions that were the result of Catholic scholarship entirely, I have never known any Bible scholar to make such a claim. What do you know that no one else does? Lay it on us.
Also, you claim to read the Bible 'as it was written'. Where did you study the Hebrew and Greek languages? Do you even know which parts of the Bible were written in Hebrew and which in Greek? Do you understand all of the wordplay and nuance that is lost in the translation to English or other languages? What are your scholarly credentials?
Would either of you care to name the Catholic Church or school that you attended? When did you attend and who was the pastor or principal at the time?
Finally, regarding the abuse scandal, I addressed this recently on another thread, where I said:Lest there be any misunderstanding, I certainly don't consider the Catholic Church to be above or beyond criticism (the recent abuse scandal being a prime example); in fact, if I wished to do so I could start a thread of such criticism myself. But criticism of ANY institution should be based on fact and not deceit. 'Making it up as you go along', as Gaius and Weeder seem to be doing, doesn't cut it, unless you have no sense of honesty or morality.
What possible reason would a person have to lie about having been to mass... or to having been raised catholic? As far as the deceitful allegations go... DO YOU READ?Are you going to tell me that you dont know how many acts of sexual abuse
by priests have been uncovered in the past 2 years? And that it is public knowledge that they were covered up?? Fact is fact. Staying with the church in light of those circumstances revealed.. is like getting up every day, and drinking a little bit of poison. You are a misguided religous zealot. I dont know whether
to put you on my ignore list ( you would be the first person in two years to go there....) or to stick around so that I can try to protect young minds from your influence.
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How can...
weeder wrote: What possible reason would a person have to lie about having been to mass... or to having been raised catholic? As far as the deceitful allegations go... DO YOU READ?Are you going to tell me that you dont know how many acts of sexual abuse
by priests have been uncovered in the past 2 years? And that it is public knowledge that they were covered up?? Fact is fact. Staying with the church in light of those circumstances revealed.. is like getting up every day, and drinking a little bit of poison. You are a misguided religous zealot. I dont know whether
to put you on my ignore list ( you would be the first person in two years to go there....) or to stick around so that I can try to protect young minds from your influence.Do YOU read? I think I addressed all of that in the previous post.
I said that it has been my experience that many anti-Catholic bigots attempt (unsuccessfully) to enhance their position by claiming to have been Catholics, and that I suspected that in your case that might be true OR that, going back the post prior to that one, you were probably never more than a 'nominal' Catholic.
You claim to have recieved all of the sacraments. That is virtually impossible. For that to be true, you would have had to have been confirmed, married, ordained a priest, and have been near death, not all at the same time, of course.
You also claimed that Catholics don't read the Bible, but that the Bibles (that they don't read?) are politically slanted, that Catholicism does not teach that God is omnipresent, and that you personally study the Bible in the original languages. I simply asked you to document those claims, which you have not done. I don't think that is an unreasonable request, since this IS a discussion forum, not merely a soapbox.
You also seemed to have completely missed my comment on the abuse crisis, so here it is again, just as I posted it before, but with some emphasis added:I don't know a single Catholic who isn't outraged over the way the situation was handled by Church officials. It was unforgivable and everyone knows it. What you ignore here, however, is that the problem is pedophilia, not Catholicism. Several other denominations, including but not limited to the Anglicans/Episcopalians, the Amish, the Mormons, and Jehovah's Witnesses have admitted similar problems, not only with the actual offenses, but with how they were handled by church officials. Should we conclude that the situation is different in the various denominations which have NOT made such admissions? Of course not.How does such a statement indicate that I was ignorant of the scandal?
The conclusion: My 65 years of experience with the Church has been much different that yours or Gaius's. Perhaps we should just leave it at that.
I would still point out that you haven't backed up any of your claims. Gaius at least admitted that the book he so abhored, whatever it was, was possibly not the Roman Missal. I still gotta wonder what was in it that he found so repulsive.
by priests have been uncovered in the past 2 years? And that it is public knowledge that they were covered up?? Fact is fact. Staying with the church in light of those circumstances revealed.. is like getting up every day, and drinking a little bit of poison. You are a misguided religous zealot. I dont know whether
to put you on my ignore list ( you would be the first person in two years to go there....) or to stick around so that I can try to protect young minds from your influence.Do YOU read? I think I addressed all of that in the previous post.
I said that it has been my experience that many anti-Catholic bigots attempt (unsuccessfully) to enhance their position by claiming to have been Catholics, and that I suspected that in your case that might be true OR that, going back the post prior to that one, you were probably never more than a 'nominal' Catholic.
You claim to have recieved all of the sacraments. That is virtually impossible. For that to be true, you would have had to have been confirmed, married, ordained a priest, and have been near death, not all at the same time, of course.
You also claimed that Catholics don't read the Bible, but that the Bibles (that they don't read?) are politically slanted, that Catholicism does not teach that God is omnipresent, and that you personally study the Bible in the original languages. I simply asked you to document those claims, which you have not done. I don't think that is an unreasonable request, since this IS a discussion forum, not merely a soapbox.
You also seemed to have completely missed my comment on the abuse crisis, so here it is again, just as I posted it before, but with some emphasis added:I don't know a single Catholic who isn't outraged over the way the situation was handled by Church officials. It was unforgivable and everyone knows it. What you ignore here, however, is that the problem is pedophilia, not Catholicism. Several other denominations, including but not limited to the Anglicans/Episcopalians, the Amish, the Mormons, and Jehovah's Witnesses have admitted similar problems, not only with the actual offenses, but with how they were handled by church officials. Should we conclude that the situation is different in the various denominations which have NOT made such admissions? Of course not.How does such a statement indicate that I was ignorant of the scandal?
The conclusion: My 65 years of experience with the Church has been much different that yours or Gaius's. Perhaps we should just leave it at that.
I would still point out that you haven't backed up any of your claims. Gaius at least admitted that the book he so abhored, whatever it was, was possibly not the Roman Missal. I still gotta wonder what was in it that he found so repulsive.
How can...
Gaius wrote: 1. Basically you called me a liar. Thats one thing I really dislike.
2. I don't feel I am maligning your church unjustly. The Catholic church is reponsible for some truly terrible things. The aids epidemic and the contraception ban is a testament to the futility and vanity of the Church.
3. Where exactly does it say in the bible that 'Semen is holy. No semen shall be spilled unless inside the womb of a woman'
4. Where did Jesus say his followers (preachers) could not marry?
5. Where does it talk about purgatory in the bible?
6. What about limbo?
7a. The fact of the matter is the Catholic church has stood in the way of progress for centuries.
7b. It benefitted from not telling people the certain truths that were in the bible and instead picking out the bits that suited their own interests.
7c. The Roman Catholic Church is not a church but a right-wing political party.
8. My father for one, has lived his life without harming another soul. He disagree's with homosexuality, but doesn't shout it from the rooftops. He has worked hard in his life and raised a family, and I just might be the first person in my family to go to college.
9. We had the local Parish priest come in and teach us religion three times a week. He was actually a nice man, as I remember him. (He moved parish two years ago) That would probably explain it.
10. Therein lies the problems of including religion in state affairs. Religion should not be taught in a classroom (Unless in a philosophy class)1. I would dislike that too, but I don't think I did that. See 9.
2. Well, G, the issue here is not so much contraception as adulterous and promiscuous sex, and in that regard the Church's position is not going to change. You seem to be implying that the Church should tell its members that any sort of sexual immorality or perversion is OK as long as a condom is used. That is outrageous. People who follow the Church's teaching regarding sexual morality have little chance of contracting AIDS. To blame the Church rather than putting the blame where it belongs, on filthy behaviour, is really quite silly.
3. The only Biblical reference I'm aware of is the case of Onan, who spilled his seed on the ground and was immediately struck dead by God. Not exactly a ringing endorsement of seed-spilling.
4. Nowhere. And your point is?
5. Jesus: 'EVERYONE (yes, G, even thou) shall be purified by fire as a sacrifice is purified by salt.' (Mark 9:49) Also, Paul says that if a man's works are insufficient for salvation, the man shall be saved through fire. That sure sounds like purgatory to me.
6. It's entertaining, especially at a party. How low can you go?
7a. Well, I agree to some extent, but I would state it differently: The Catholic Church has maintained through the centuries a degree of traditionalism that the Protestant denominations have largely abandoned, and that is one of the main things that makes Catholicism so attractive, to its members and to converts. We like the traditionalism, though some of us feel that in certain instances it can be overdone or overemphasized.
7b. I haven't the least idea what you're talking about here, and if you would provide an example or two I'd be happy to comment. I have been reading the Bible since I was old enough to read as I stated previously, have read it from cover to cover twice, continue to read it, if not every day at least several times a week, and have never found anything there that conflicts with Catholic doctrine. I find MUCH in the Bible, however, that conflicts with Protestantism, Christ's teaching on divorce being one of the most obvious examples, but that is perhaps a subject for a separate discussion.
7c. LOL! Most of the Catholics I know are liberal to middle-of-the-road Democrats.
8. Sounds just like my own dad, who was a Welsh Congregationalist. Indeed, there are certain values of decency and morality that transcend denominational barriers.
9. Well, it sounds as if you are describing a public rather than a Catholic school, since the latter would likely have priests and nuns in residence. If so, that would support my guess that you had not attended a Catholic school. But again, I know nothing of how the schools in Ireland are set up.
10. Here we agree completely, assuming once again that you are talking about PUBLIC school classrooms. This is currently a big issue in the USA, but it is the Protestant fundamentalists, certainly not the Catholics, who keep trying to inculcate their strange beliefs into the public classroom. So far they have been mostly unsuccessful, thank God.
2. I don't feel I am maligning your church unjustly. The Catholic church is reponsible for some truly terrible things. The aids epidemic and the contraception ban is a testament to the futility and vanity of the Church.
3. Where exactly does it say in the bible that 'Semen is holy. No semen shall be spilled unless inside the womb of a woman'
4. Where did Jesus say his followers (preachers) could not marry?
5. Where does it talk about purgatory in the bible?
6. What about limbo?
7a. The fact of the matter is the Catholic church has stood in the way of progress for centuries.
7b. It benefitted from not telling people the certain truths that were in the bible and instead picking out the bits that suited their own interests.
7c. The Roman Catholic Church is not a church but a right-wing political party.
8. My father for one, has lived his life without harming another soul. He disagree's with homosexuality, but doesn't shout it from the rooftops. He has worked hard in his life and raised a family, and I just might be the first person in my family to go to college.
9. We had the local Parish priest come in and teach us religion three times a week. He was actually a nice man, as I remember him. (He moved parish two years ago) That would probably explain it.
10. Therein lies the problems of including religion in state affairs. Religion should not be taught in a classroom (Unless in a philosophy class)1. I would dislike that too, but I don't think I did that. See 9.
2. Well, G, the issue here is not so much contraception as adulterous and promiscuous sex, and in that regard the Church's position is not going to change. You seem to be implying that the Church should tell its members that any sort of sexual immorality or perversion is OK as long as a condom is used. That is outrageous. People who follow the Church's teaching regarding sexual morality have little chance of contracting AIDS. To blame the Church rather than putting the blame where it belongs, on filthy behaviour, is really quite silly.
3. The only Biblical reference I'm aware of is the case of Onan, who spilled his seed on the ground and was immediately struck dead by God. Not exactly a ringing endorsement of seed-spilling.
4. Nowhere. And your point is?
5. Jesus: 'EVERYONE (yes, G, even thou) shall be purified by fire as a sacrifice is purified by salt.' (Mark 9:49) Also, Paul says that if a man's works are insufficient for salvation, the man shall be saved through fire. That sure sounds like purgatory to me.
6. It's entertaining, especially at a party. How low can you go?
7a. Well, I agree to some extent, but I would state it differently: The Catholic Church has maintained through the centuries a degree of traditionalism that the Protestant denominations have largely abandoned, and that is one of the main things that makes Catholicism so attractive, to its members and to converts. We like the traditionalism, though some of us feel that in certain instances it can be overdone or overemphasized.
7b. I haven't the least idea what you're talking about here, and if you would provide an example or two I'd be happy to comment. I have been reading the Bible since I was old enough to read as I stated previously, have read it from cover to cover twice, continue to read it, if not every day at least several times a week, and have never found anything there that conflicts with Catholic doctrine. I find MUCH in the Bible, however, that conflicts with Protestantism, Christ's teaching on divorce being one of the most obvious examples, but that is perhaps a subject for a separate discussion.
7c. LOL! Most of the Catholics I know are liberal to middle-of-the-road Democrats.
8. Sounds just like my own dad, who was a Welsh Congregationalist. Indeed, there are certain values of decency and morality that transcend denominational barriers.
9. Well, it sounds as if you are describing a public rather than a Catholic school, since the latter would likely have priests and nuns in residence. If so, that would support my guess that you had not attended a Catholic school. But again, I know nothing of how the schools in Ireland are set up.
10. Here we agree completely, assuming once again that you are talking about PUBLIC school classrooms. This is currently a big issue in the USA, but it is the Protestant fundamentalists, certainly not the Catholics, who keep trying to inculcate their strange beliefs into the public classroom. So far they have been mostly unsuccessful, thank God.
How can...
1. I would dislike that too, but I don't think I did that. See 9.
2. Well, G, the issue here is not so much contraception as adulterous and promiscuous sex, and in that regard the Church's position is not going to change. You seem to be implying that the Church should tell its members that any sort of sexual immorality or perversion is OK as long as a condom is used. That is outrageous. People who follow the Church's teaching regarding sexual morality have little chance of contracting AIDS. To blame the Church rather than putting the blame where it belongs, on filthy behaviour, is really quite silly.
3. The only Biblical reference I'm aware of is the case of Onan, who spilled his seed on the ground and was immediately struck dead by God. Not exactly a ringing endorsement of seed-spilling.
4. Nowhere. And your point is?
5. Jesus: 'EVERYONE (yes, G, even thou) shall be purified by fire as a sacrifice is purified by salt.' (Mark 9:49) Also, Paul says that if a man's works are insufficient for salvation, the man shall be saved through fire. That sure sounds like purgatory to me.
6. It's entertaining, especially at a party. How low can you go?
7a. Well, I agree to some extent, but I would state it differently: The Catholic Church has maintained through the centuries a degree of traditionalism that the Protestant denominations have largely abandoned, and that is one of the main things that makes Catholicism so attractive, to its members and to converts. We like the traditionalism, though some of us feel that in certain instances it can be overdone or overemphasized.
7b. I haven't the least idea what you're talking about here, and if you would provide an example or two I'd be happy to comment. I have been reading the Bible since I was old enough to read as I stated previously, have read it from cover to cover twice, continue to read it, if not every day at least several times a week, and have never found anything there that conflicts with Catholic doctrine. I find MUCH in the Bible, however, that conflicts with Protestantism, Christ's teaching on divorce being one of the most obvious examples, but that is perhaps a subject for a separate discussion.
7c. LOL! Most of the Catholics I know are liberal to middle-of-the-road Democrats.
8. Sounds just like my own dad, who was a Welsh Congregationalist. Indeed, there are certain values of decency and morality that transcend denominational barriers.
9. Well, it sounds as if you are describing a public rather than a Catholic school, since the latter would likely have priests and nuns in residence. If so, that would support my guess that you had not attended a Catholic school. But again, I know nothing of how the schools in Ireland are set up.
10. Here we agree completely, assuming once again that you are talking about PUBLIC school classrooms. This is currently a big issue in the USA, but it is the Protestant fundamentalists, certainly not the Catholics, who keep trying to inculcate their strange beliefs into the public classroom. So far they have been mostly unsuccessful, thank God
1) I think you'll find you did.
2) What about condoms within marriage? Sex before marriage is a ridiculous concept anyway. You show me one twenty year old virign nowadays. It's an medieval concept - largely encouraged by the church for political purposes to keep overpopulation in check in a time before contraception. Sex is to be enjoyed with those that you love. It shouldn't be ostracised. Filthy behaviour? Quite the cultural imperialist aren't you?
3) Around the time the bible was written it was assumed that all life came from the man. Women had only the small role of actually carrying the child. It was the man's semen which gave life. Science has prevailed and disputed this idea. It's time the church got in with the times.
4) Let Catholic clergymen AND women marry. Force a cruel abstinance pledge on a man (An otherwise good man) and certain things are going to happen when he gets close up with younger children. It's the way of the world.
5) I personally believe that passage has nothing to do with purgatory, but thats a matter up for interpretation. Besides, the Bible isn't a great source to actually debate christianity since it was altered for political needs in the fourth century.
6) You know what I mean, answer the question.
7) I'll only comment on point C.
Thats the futility of the Church. Its conservative while the majority of catholics are liberal minded. It absolutely ridiculous.
8) Agreed.
9) Indeed, you have absolutely no knowledge of the Irish educational system, so 'butt out', so to speak.
10) Thank the heavans you agree the bible has no place in the classroom.
Chat to you later.
How can...
Gaius wrote: 4) Let Catholic clergymen AND women marry. Force a cruel abstinance pledge on a man (An otherwise good man) and certain things are going to happen when he gets close up with younger children. It's the way of the world.
Most child molestors, believe it or not, are married men who prey on very young girls. More than half of child molestation cases involve a parent. The vast majority of the victims of molestation by priests, however, have been teenage boys... It doesn't seem to me that whether or not priests are able to marry women plays any role here.
Most child molestors, believe it or not, are married men who prey on very young girls. More than half of child molestation cases involve a parent. The vast majority of the victims of molestation by priests, however, have been teenage boys... It doesn't seem to me that whether or not priests are able to marry women plays any role here.
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Accountable
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How can...
Wow, Bronwen. It's a good thing you're not trying to convert anybody. I can't think of anyone who'd pass your muster. :p
Thanks for pointing out what lying trolls these two malcontents are. Had you not been here with your clearly superior intellect & whatnot, I'd'a thought they were good level-headed folks with valid opinions and such. :driving:
Thanks for pointing out what lying trolls these two malcontents are. Had you not been here with your clearly superior intellect & whatnot, I'd'a thought they were good level-headed folks with valid opinions and such. :driving:
How can...
I would suggest that Bronwen obtain and read a copy of "The Church that forgot Christ" by Jimmy Breslin.. An excellent book on the molestation by priests. He wants porrf. Bresin does name names and churches. Now unless it is unde oath and in a court of law that can't be construed as proof but the book is very clear about many of the things that happened in the US and a few other places.
Personally I have been deceived and lied to by an RC Bishop as well as a priest. I also know a few priest who are very fine men. Some of the theologians I read and highly respect are Roman Catholic.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Personally I have been deceived and lied to by an RC Bishop as well as a priest. I also know a few priest who are very fine men. Some of the theologians I read and highly respect are Roman Catholic.
Shalom
Ted:-6
How can...
Gaius wrote: 1) I think you'll find you did.
2) What about condoms within marriage? Sex before marriage is a ridiculous concept anyway. You show me one twenty year old virign nowadays. It's an medieval concept - largely encouraged by the church for political purposes to keep overpopulation in check in a time before contraception. Sex is to be enjoyed with those that you love. It shouldn't be ostracised. Filthy behaviour? Quite the cultural imperialist aren't you?
3) Around the time the bible was written it was assumed that all life came from the man. Women had only the small role of actually carrying the child. It was the man's semen which gave life. Science has prevailed and disputed this idea. It's time the church got in with the times.
4) Let Catholic clergymen AND women marry. Force a cruel abstinance pledge on a man (An otherwise good man) and certain things are going to happen when he gets close up with younger children. It's the way of the world.
5) I personally believe that passage has nothing to do with purgatory, but thats a matter up for interpretation. Besides, the Bible isn't a great source to actually debate christianity since it was altered for political needs in the fourth century.
6) You know what I mean, answer the question.
7) I'll only comment on point C.
Thats the futility of the Church. Its conservative while the majority of catholics are liberal minded. It absolutely ridiculous.
8) Agreed.
9) Indeed, you have absolutely no knowledge of the Irish educational system, so 'butt out', so to speak.
10) Thank the heavans you agree the bible has no place in the classroom.
Chat to you later.1. Well, I'm sorry, I don't find that. I meant to imply that I was suspicious, but not certain. I think that was what I said.
2. You are shifting the focus. We were talking about the spread of AIDS, a topic you introduced into this discussion.
3. ??
4. Well, I'm not sure what you're saying here. Let Catholic clergy marry women, or let Catholic religious, both priests and nuns, marry whom they will? There's a difference. I can't imagine a married nun, it seems like a contradiction in terms. How would that work?
Priests are different. Since you are a former Catholic you should be aware that the Church requires celibacy of its priesthood ONLY in the Western or 'Latin' rite, and even there it occasionally ordains married men (not many at present, however). ALL of the various Eastern rites have always ordained married men, though they will accept bachelors also. You do have to marry first, though, and if a priest's wife dies he may not remarry and remain active in the priesthood. THat is not likely to change any time soon.
No one 'forces a cruel abstinance pledge' on anyone. What on earth are you talking about here? Young men interested in the Western priesthood have to make that decision, and it's a very serious one. That's why most seminaries encourage their students to maintain an active social life at first, even dating women if they wish to do so. Any candidate for the priesthood who decides the vow of celibacy is asking too much is free to leave and find a different vocation, or he may marry and become a deacon.
Your next statement is really quite outrageous, so much so that I hesitate to comment. Millions of men and women live celibate lives for a variety of reasons. As a widow, I do so myself, though I hope to eventually remarry. To imply that my lifestyle predisposes me to molest children would be quite a joke if child abuse weren't such a serious and unfunny subject.
Any priest who finds himself unable to keep his vows can be released from them and leave the active priesthood. I'm not a psychiatrist so I'm unqualified to expound on the causes of pedophilia. They certainly do not include a solemn vow, freely taken.
Now, all that having been said, I agree with you partially in that I think the Western priesthood should ordain more married men, not to reduce child abuse (since most of the abusers, not all, are homosexuals who would be unlikely to marry anyway) but because there is a serious shortage of priests worldwide, a situation that married men, especially those who are already ordained deacons, could easily solve. And I will go so far as to predict that that will actually happen, gradually, beginning within the next couple of years. Of course, I would like to see the priesthood opened to women also, though in that case I make no such prediction.
5. In any case, those verses and several others are the basis for the Church's teaching. It's not something they just made up as you seem to imply.
Regarding your claim of 'alteration' of the Bible in the 4th century, which you have made on several threads here, this is of great interest to me as I have always been, while hardly an expert, very interested in Bible history, and I haven't the least idea what you're talking about. How about some documentation?
6. Limbo was never a doctrine or dogma but more of a rationalization or theory regarding unbaptized infants. Neither I nor the Church has any doubt that God treats them fairly.
7. You are making a serious mischaracterization here. The Church is not the hieracrchy, the Church is the membership. I have no doubt that there are Catholics who are political conservatives. I just don't know many of them, I don't run in those circles. That the Catholic Church is doctrinally conservative and traditional is something on which we have already agreed. That has little to do with mundane politics.
9. Well, since I've admitted that, why not just give me a brief explanation of how the school system is set up there? I'd really like to know.
2) What about condoms within marriage? Sex before marriage is a ridiculous concept anyway. You show me one twenty year old virign nowadays. It's an medieval concept - largely encouraged by the church for political purposes to keep overpopulation in check in a time before contraception. Sex is to be enjoyed with those that you love. It shouldn't be ostracised. Filthy behaviour? Quite the cultural imperialist aren't you?
3) Around the time the bible was written it was assumed that all life came from the man. Women had only the small role of actually carrying the child. It was the man's semen which gave life. Science has prevailed and disputed this idea. It's time the church got in with the times.
4) Let Catholic clergymen AND women marry. Force a cruel abstinance pledge on a man (An otherwise good man) and certain things are going to happen when he gets close up with younger children. It's the way of the world.
5) I personally believe that passage has nothing to do with purgatory, but thats a matter up for interpretation. Besides, the Bible isn't a great source to actually debate christianity since it was altered for political needs in the fourth century.
6) You know what I mean, answer the question.
7) I'll only comment on point C.
Thats the futility of the Church. Its conservative while the majority of catholics are liberal minded. It absolutely ridiculous.
8) Agreed.
9) Indeed, you have absolutely no knowledge of the Irish educational system, so 'butt out', so to speak.
10) Thank the heavans you agree the bible has no place in the classroom.
Chat to you later.1. Well, I'm sorry, I don't find that. I meant to imply that I was suspicious, but not certain. I think that was what I said.
2. You are shifting the focus. We were talking about the spread of AIDS, a topic you introduced into this discussion.
3. ??
4. Well, I'm not sure what you're saying here. Let Catholic clergy marry women, or let Catholic religious, both priests and nuns, marry whom they will? There's a difference. I can't imagine a married nun, it seems like a contradiction in terms. How would that work?
Priests are different. Since you are a former Catholic you should be aware that the Church requires celibacy of its priesthood ONLY in the Western or 'Latin' rite, and even there it occasionally ordains married men (not many at present, however). ALL of the various Eastern rites have always ordained married men, though they will accept bachelors also. You do have to marry first, though, and if a priest's wife dies he may not remarry and remain active in the priesthood. THat is not likely to change any time soon.
No one 'forces a cruel abstinance pledge' on anyone. What on earth are you talking about here? Young men interested in the Western priesthood have to make that decision, and it's a very serious one. That's why most seminaries encourage their students to maintain an active social life at first, even dating women if they wish to do so. Any candidate for the priesthood who decides the vow of celibacy is asking too much is free to leave and find a different vocation, or he may marry and become a deacon.
Your next statement is really quite outrageous, so much so that I hesitate to comment. Millions of men and women live celibate lives for a variety of reasons. As a widow, I do so myself, though I hope to eventually remarry. To imply that my lifestyle predisposes me to molest children would be quite a joke if child abuse weren't such a serious and unfunny subject.
Any priest who finds himself unable to keep his vows can be released from them and leave the active priesthood. I'm not a psychiatrist so I'm unqualified to expound on the causes of pedophilia. They certainly do not include a solemn vow, freely taken.
Now, all that having been said, I agree with you partially in that I think the Western priesthood should ordain more married men, not to reduce child abuse (since most of the abusers, not all, are homosexuals who would be unlikely to marry anyway) but because there is a serious shortage of priests worldwide, a situation that married men, especially those who are already ordained deacons, could easily solve. And I will go so far as to predict that that will actually happen, gradually, beginning within the next couple of years. Of course, I would like to see the priesthood opened to women also, though in that case I make no such prediction.
5. In any case, those verses and several others are the basis for the Church's teaching. It's not something they just made up as you seem to imply.
Regarding your claim of 'alteration' of the Bible in the 4th century, which you have made on several threads here, this is of great interest to me as I have always been, while hardly an expert, very interested in Bible history, and I haven't the least idea what you're talking about. How about some documentation?
6. Limbo was never a doctrine or dogma but more of a rationalization or theory regarding unbaptized infants. Neither I nor the Church has any doubt that God treats them fairly.
7. You are making a serious mischaracterization here. The Church is not the hieracrchy, the Church is the membership. I have no doubt that there are Catholics who are political conservatives. I just don't know many of them, I don't run in those circles. That the Catholic Church is doctrinally conservative and traditional is something on which we have already agreed. That has little to do with mundane politics.
9. Well, since I've admitted that, why not just give me a brief explanation of how the school system is set up there? I'd really like to know.
How can...
Ted wrote: I would suggest that Bronwen obtain and read a copy of "The Church that forgot Christ" by Jimmy Breslin.. Ted, you are repeating yourself as usual.
At least you spelled his name right this time.
At least you spelled his name right this time.
How can...
1. Well, I'm sorry, I don't find that. I meant to imply that I was suspicious, but not certain. I think that was what I said.
2. You are shifting the focus. We were talking about the spread of AIDS, a topic you introduced into this discussion.
3. ??
4. Well, I'm not sure what you're saying here. Let Catholic clergy marry women, or let Catholic religious, both priests and nuns, marry whom they will? There's a difference. I can't imagine a married nun, it seems like a contradiction in terms. How would that work?
Priests are different. Since you are a former Catholic you should be aware that the Church requires celibacy of its priesthood ONLY in the Western or 'Latin' rite, and even there it occasionally ordains married men (not many at present, however). ALL of the various Eastern rites have always ordained married men, though they will accept bachelors also. You do have to marry first, though, and if a priest's wife dies he may not remarry and remain active in the priesthood. THat is not likely to change any time soon.
No one 'forces a cruel abstinance pledge' on anyone. What on earth are you talking about here? Young men interested in the Western priesthood have to make that decision, and it's a very serious one. That's why most seminaries encourage their students to maintain an active social life at first, even dating women if they wish to do so. Any candidate for the priesthood who decides the vow of celibacy is asking too much is free to leave and find a different vocation, or he may marry and become a deacon.
Your next statement is really quite outrageous, so much so that I hesitate to comment. Millions of men and women live celibate lives for a variety of reasons. As a widow, I do so myself, though I hope to eventually remarry. To imply that my lifestyle predisposes me to molest children would be quite a joke if child abuse weren't such a serious and unfunny subject.
Any priest who finds himself unable to keep his vows can be released from them and leave the active priesthood. I'm not a psychiatrist so I'm unqualified to expound on the causes of pedophilia. They certainly do not include a solemn vow, freely taken.
Now, all that having been said, I agree with you partially in that I think the Western priesthood should ordain more married men, not to reduce child abuse (since most of the abusers, not all, are homosexuals who would be unlikely to marry anyway) but because there is a serious shortage of priests worldwide, a situation that married men, especially those who are already ordained deacons, could easily solve. And I will go so far as to predict that that will actually happen, gradually, beginning within the next couple of years. Of course, I would like to see the priesthood opened to women also, though in that case I make no such prediction.
5. In any case, those verses and several others are the basis for the Church's teaching. It's not something they just made up as you seem to imply.
Regarding your claim of 'alteration' of the Bible in the 4th century, which you have made on several threads here, this is of great interest to me as I have always been, while hardly an expert, very interested in Bible history, and I haven't the least idea what you're talking about. How about some documentation?
6. Limbo was never a doctrine or dogma but more of a rationalization or theory regarding unbaptized infants. Neither I nor the Church has any doubt that God treats them fairly.
7. You are making a serious mischaracterization here. The Church is not the hieracrchy, the Church is the membership. I have no doubt that there are Catholics who are political conservatives. I just don't know many of them, I don't run in those circles. That the Catholic Church is doctrinally conservative and traditional is something on which we have already agreed. That has little to do with mundane politics.
9. Well, since I've admitted that, why not just give me a brief explanation of how the school system is set up there? I'd really like to know.
2) The spread of aids goes through both miseducation (or lack of) and a lack of birth control. Lots of times people don't realise they have aids when they pass it on. A huge number of Africans don't know what aids is and don't know how they get it. Condoms of course could be distributed by the Catholic Church to married people who have aids yet is not doing so due to the silliest decree the Church has ever made in its history. Period.
4) I don't know what you are talking about. I'm talking about the west and in the west you have to be celibate to be a priest. Thats a tough break, and I just can't get my head round why sex is so demonised in the church.
I've been in a relationship for two years with a girl I love to bits. I've slept with her several times - where's the sin in that?
5) The documentation is everywhere, the Roman historians recorded the Council of Nicea. I've read some accounts in an old book (The Historians Histories of the World Pub. 1908) of Arian Bishops who regarded Christ as an extraordinary man not a divine man. There are several accounts of discarded gospels. Then there were the Dead Sea Scrolls, remnants of different, discarded Gospels. Anything I've read have been bits and pieces. If you really were interested in Bible history you would have taken an objective viewpoint and viewed all the facts, and I guarantee you wouldn't be so fond of 'Mother Church' if you had.
6) I wish you had of been in the Irish theocracy in the 60's. My aunt was told that while her baby died in childbirth and had not been baptised, her baby was stuck in a place between Heaven and hell. Whats worst about that there is no theological grounding for it.
What about the Popes decree that Mary ascended into heaven even though there is no documentation to prove that?
7) Even my fundamentalist catholic father supports ordaining women and allowing priests to marry. Even the furtherest to the right among catholics agree with the Liberals, showing the consensus among the church's flock, and exposing the idiocy of the hierarchy.
9) The vast majority of Irish primary (Or elementary) schools are run by the Catholic Church. The state pays the saleries of the teachers while the church pays the other bills. The state benefits from cutting costs. The church benefits by grabbing us from as young as four and teaching us their medieval concepts. Many of these young children grow older, attend mass on sundays and give to the collection plate, which at the end of the day is what its all about. There were no resident clergy in my school but we were taught by priests in many cases.
How can...
Gaius wrote: 2) The spread of aids goes through both miseducation (or lack of) and a lack of birth control. Lots of times people don't realise they have aids when they pass it on. A huge number of Africans don't know what aids is and don't know how they get it. Condoms of course could be distributed by the Catholic Church to married people who have aids yet is not doing so due to the silliest decree the Church has ever made in its history. Period.
4) I don't know what you are talking about. I'm talking about the west and in the west you have to be celibate to be a priest. Thats a tough break, and I just can't get my head round why sex is so demonised in the church.
I've been in a relationship for two years with a girl I love to bits. I've slept with her several times - where's the sin in that?
5) The documentation is everywhere, the Roman historians recorded the Council of Nicea. I've read some accounts in an old book (The Historians Histories of the World Pub. 1908) of Arian Bishops who regarded Christ as an extraordinary man not a divine man. There are several accounts of discarded gospels. Then there were the Dead Sea Scrolls, remnants of different, discarded Gospels. Anything I've read have been bits and pieces. If you really were interested in Bible history you would have taken an objective viewpoint and viewed all the facts, and I guarantee you wouldn't be so fond of 'Mother Church' if you had.
6) I wish you had of been in the Irish theocracy in the 60's. My aunt was told that while her baby died in childbirth and had not been baptised, her baby was stuck in a place between Heaven and hell. Whats worst about that there is no theological grounding for it.
What about the Popes decree that Mary ascended into heaven even though there is no documentation to prove that?
7) Even my fundamentalist catholic father supports ordaining women and allowing priests to marry. Even the furtherest to the right among catholics agree with the Liberals, showing the consensus among the church's flock, and exposing the idiocy of the hierarchy.
9) The vast majority of Irish primary (Or elementary) schools are run by the Catholic Church. The state pays the saleries of the teachers while the church pays the other bills. The state benefits from cutting costs. The church benefits by grabbing us from as young as four and teaching us their medieval concepts. Many of these young children grow older, attend mass on sundays and give to the collection plate, which at the end of the day is what its all about. There were no resident clergy in my school but we were taught by priests in many cases.2. AIDS is spread by adulterous and promiscuous conduct. It has nothing to do with birth control. A husband and wife who are faithful to each other will not contract AIDS, whether or not they practice contraception. To say that the Catholic Church should encourage immoral behaviour is outrageous. There are various social service groups who distribute condoms and who do not make moral judgements. I have no objection to that, nor should anyone. And by the way, the idea that sex outside of marriage is immoral is hardly exclusive to Catholicism.
4. Well, G, I know you don't and that is why I doubted, and still doubt, that you were ever very deeply immersed in Catholicism. Before the death of my husband we lived in a small city in Pennsylvania, not far from Pittsburgh. This is coal minig country, and a large percentage of the population was of East European origin, nearly all Roman Catholics. There were no fewer than eight Catholic churches in our little town, six Western or "Latin" rite, and two Byzantine rite. I can assure you that the Byzantine rite churches had married priests (with lots of children) and that is normal for ALL of the various Eastern rites. In addition, the Western rite is also able to ordain married men, though at the present time it does so VERY selectively, usually Anglican (Episcopalian) priests or Lutheran ministers who wish to convert to Catholicism and remain clergy. As I said in the previous thread, I believe that within the next couple of years we will see more and more married men ordained in the Western Church. We shall see. If that does not occur, the shortage of priests will only worsen.
5. Your description of Arianism is basically correct. So? No one has ever proven that Christ was divine. It's a matter of religious faith. As for the documentation that Scripture was changed in the 4th century, please provide some. Saying that the documentation 'is everywhere' doesn't cut it. I've never heard such a thing, and I'm familiar with MOST of the conspiracy theories. Maybe you've been reading too many novels.
By the way, I know of no NT material in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Can you document that also?
6. I thought that was what I said. No scriptural support, thus it falls short of the requirements for doctrine or dogma. More like a theory. No one knows. God knows.
Thanks for the information on the Irish school system.
Regarding your friend, why not get married? Just a suggestion.
4) I don't know what you are talking about. I'm talking about the west and in the west you have to be celibate to be a priest. Thats a tough break, and I just can't get my head round why sex is so demonised in the church.
I've been in a relationship for two years with a girl I love to bits. I've slept with her several times - where's the sin in that?
5) The documentation is everywhere, the Roman historians recorded the Council of Nicea. I've read some accounts in an old book (The Historians Histories of the World Pub. 1908) of Arian Bishops who regarded Christ as an extraordinary man not a divine man. There are several accounts of discarded gospels. Then there were the Dead Sea Scrolls, remnants of different, discarded Gospels. Anything I've read have been bits and pieces. If you really were interested in Bible history you would have taken an objective viewpoint and viewed all the facts, and I guarantee you wouldn't be so fond of 'Mother Church' if you had.
6) I wish you had of been in the Irish theocracy in the 60's. My aunt was told that while her baby died in childbirth and had not been baptised, her baby was stuck in a place between Heaven and hell. Whats worst about that there is no theological grounding for it.
What about the Popes decree that Mary ascended into heaven even though there is no documentation to prove that?
7) Even my fundamentalist catholic father supports ordaining women and allowing priests to marry. Even the furtherest to the right among catholics agree with the Liberals, showing the consensus among the church's flock, and exposing the idiocy of the hierarchy.
9) The vast majority of Irish primary (Or elementary) schools are run by the Catholic Church. The state pays the saleries of the teachers while the church pays the other bills. The state benefits from cutting costs. The church benefits by grabbing us from as young as four and teaching us their medieval concepts. Many of these young children grow older, attend mass on sundays and give to the collection plate, which at the end of the day is what its all about. There were no resident clergy in my school but we were taught by priests in many cases.2. AIDS is spread by adulterous and promiscuous conduct. It has nothing to do with birth control. A husband and wife who are faithful to each other will not contract AIDS, whether or not they practice contraception. To say that the Catholic Church should encourage immoral behaviour is outrageous. There are various social service groups who distribute condoms and who do not make moral judgements. I have no objection to that, nor should anyone. And by the way, the idea that sex outside of marriage is immoral is hardly exclusive to Catholicism.
4. Well, G, I know you don't and that is why I doubted, and still doubt, that you were ever very deeply immersed in Catholicism. Before the death of my husband we lived in a small city in Pennsylvania, not far from Pittsburgh. This is coal minig country, and a large percentage of the population was of East European origin, nearly all Roman Catholics. There were no fewer than eight Catholic churches in our little town, six Western or "Latin" rite, and two Byzantine rite. I can assure you that the Byzantine rite churches had married priests (with lots of children) and that is normal for ALL of the various Eastern rites. In addition, the Western rite is also able to ordain married men, though at the present time it does so VERY selectively, usually Anglican (Episcopalian) priests or Lutheran ministers who wish to convert to Catholicism and remain clergy. As I said in the previous thread, I believe that within the next couple of years we will see more and more married men ordained in the Western Church. We shall see. If that does not occur, the shortage of priests will only worsen.
5. Your description of Arianism is basically correct. So? No one has ever proven that Christ was divine. It's a matter of religious faith. As for the documentation that Scripture was changed in the 4th century, please provide some. Saying that the documentation 'is everywhere' doesn't cut it. I've never heard such a thing, and I'm familiar with MOST of the conspiracy theories. Maybe you've been reading too many novels.
By the way, I know of no NT material in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Can you document that also?
6. I thought that was what I said. No scriptural support, thus it falls short of the requirements for doctrine or dogma. More like a theory. No one knows. God knows.
Thanks for the information on the Irish school system.
Regarding your friend, why not get married? Just a suggestion.
How can...
4. Well, G, I know you don't and that is why I doubted, and still doubt, that you were ever very deeply immersed in Catholicism. Before the death of my husband we lived in a small city in Pennsylvania, not far from Pittsburgh. This is coal minig country, and a large percentage of the population was of East European origin, nearly all Roman Catholics. There were no fewer than eight Catholic churches in our little town, six Western or "Latin" rite, and two Byzantine rite. I can assure you that the Byzantine rite churches had married priests (with lots of children) and that is normal for ALL of the various Eastern rites. In addition, the Western rite is also able to ordain married men, though at the present time it does so VERY selectively, usually Anglican (Episcopalian) priests or Lutheran ministers who wish to convert to Catholicism and remain clergy. As I said in the previous thread, I believe that within the next couple of years we will see more and more married men ordained in the Western Church. We shall see. If that does not occur, the shortage of priests will only worsen."
Now I'm beginning to doubt whether you really are a Roman Catholic. If you were then you are surely aware of the East-West split in the Church in the eleventh Century. You are referring to the Eastern Orthodox Church, and although it is very similar to the RC Church, it is NOT the Roman Catholic Church. I'm glad we've cleared that up.
5. Your description of Arianism is basically correct. So? No one has ever proven that Christ was divine. It's a matter of religious faith. As for the documentation that Scripture was changed in the 4th century, please provide some. Saying that the documentation 'is everywhere' doesn't cut it. I've never heard such a thing, and I'm familiar with MOST of the conspiracy theories. Maybe you've been reading too many novels.
As much as I enjoy the occasional lunge into Jeffry Archer, the amount of novels I read is not in question here. What do you want me to do? Physically hand you a book published in 1908? My Granda was somewhat of an old book collector (He also has an early 20th century collection of Dickens books) and among them he has a huge collection of 'Historians Histories of the World' books. Look them up on the internet stop being so lazy.
6. I thought that was what I said. No scriptural support, thus it falls short of the requirements for doctrine or dogma. More like a theory. No one knows. God knows.
Thanks for the information on the Irish school system.
Regarding your friend, why not get married? Just a suggestion.
I'm 17!!!
I do intend to have a life before I settle down and have a family :-6
How can...
Bronwen:-6
You ask for documentation on the alterations to the Bible.. We have none of the originals. But what we do have to aid in our work of putting together a Bible are thousands of manuscripts that contain great variations in what the original authors wrote. In fact there are over 400 000 variations. Yes there have been changes and alterations some in an honest attempt to get back as close as possible to the original and some deliberate changes to support a particular scribes own theoloy. "Misquoting Jesus" by Bart D. Ehrman.
It is wonderful that you have noted I made a spelling error. It may have been due to carelessness or a typo or the the fact that I am going blind and find the screen somewhat hard to read. But thanks for that note. I'll try to avoid such errors in the future. Apologies.
I neither want nor need sympathy but a little understanding would help. Thanks
Shalom
Ted:-6
You ask for documentation on the alterations to the Bible.. We have none of the originals. But what we do have to aid in our work of putting together a Bible are thousands of manuscripts that contain great variations in what the original authors wrote. In fact there are over 400 000 variations. Yes there have been changes and alterations some in an honest attempt to get back as close as possible to the original and some deliberate changes to support a particular scribes own theoloy. "Misquoting Jesus" by Bart D. Ehrman.
It is wonderful that you have noted I made a spelling error. It may have been due to carelessness or a typo or the the fact that I am going blind and find the screen somewhat hard to read. But thanks for that note. I'll try to avoid such errors in the future. Apologies.
I neither want nor need sympathy but a little understanding would help. Thanks
Shalom
Ted:-6
How can...
Gaius wrote: 1a. Now I'm beginning to doubt whether you really are a Roman Catholic. If you were then you are surely aware of the East-West split in the Church in the eleventh Century. You are referring to the Eastern Orthodox Church, and although it is very similar to the RC Church, it is NOT the Roman Catholic Church.
1b. I'm glad we've cleared that up.
2. I'm 17!!! I do intend to have a life before I settle down and have a family.1a. I have always been amazed at the way non-Catholics simply refuse to accept the fact that the Roman Catholic Church has a mostly celibate clergy in the Western rite and a married clergy in ALL of the Eastern rites. This might be due to simple ignorance, or it might be because it destroys one of their cherished myths - that the RCC is somehow anti-sex and anti-marriage.
I can understand, however, that the number of Eastern rite churches in Ireland is probably quite small, very likely zero, so I'm willing to cut you a little slack here. It's quite likely that the priest who dropped by three times a week never discussed this. I lived briefly in Vienna, Austria, just a hour's train ride from Bratislava, Slovakia, two great capitals of two great European nations, and both overwhelmingly Roman Catholic. Nearly all of the Catholic churches in Austria are Western rite with mostly celibate priests. Nearly all of the Catholic churches just across the Danube in Slovakia are Eastern rite with mostly married and also some bachelor priests.
I know virtually nothing about the various Eastern Orthodox Churches regarding their requirements of the priesthood. By the way, you're correct, the Orthodox Churches are very close to the Catholic Church. Orthodox Churches have valid orders and valid sacraments; in fact, when a Catholic and an Orthodox marry, the wedding is usually held at the Orthodox Church, and there is a very good reason for this. The Catholic pastor may be in attendence as a guest, but this is not required.
1b. NOW I hope it's been cleared up. If you still doubt that the RCC Church has both celibate and married priesthoods, ask a priest. Finding one in Ireland shouldn't be difficult!
My main point, however, which you seem to have missed, is that it is very likely that we will see the Western Church ordaining more married men in the near future, beginning with those who are already active in the deaconate.
2. Ah, that's different. Definitely too young - for anything.
1b. I'm glad we've cleared that up.
2. I'm 17!!! I do intend to have a life before I settle down and have a family.1a. I have always been amazed at the way non-Catholics simply refuse to accept the fact that the Roman Catholic Church has a mostly celibate clergy in the Western rite and a married clergy in ALL of the Eastern rites. This might be due to simple ignorance, or it might be because it destroys one of their cherished myths - that the RCC is somehow anti-sex and anti-marriage.
I can understand, however, that the number of Eastern rite churches in Ireland is probably quite small, very likely zero, so I'm willing to cut you a little slack here. It's quite likely that the priest who dropped by three times a week never discussed this. I lived briefly in Vienna, Austria, just a hour's train ride from Bratislava, Slovakia, two great capitals of two great European nations, and both overwhelmingly Roman Catholic. Nearly all of the Catholic churches in Austria are Western rite with mostly celibate priests. Nearly all of the Catholic churches just across the Danube in Slovakia are Eastern rite with mostly married and also some bachelor priests.
I know virtually nothing about the various Eastern Orthodox Churches regarding their requirements of the priesthood. By the way, you're correct, the Orthodox Churches are very close to the Catholic Church. Orthodox Churches have valid orders and valid sacraments; in fact, when a Catholic and an Orthodox marry, the wedding is usually held at the Orthodox Church, and there is a very good reason for this. The Catholic pastor may be in attendence as a guest, but this is not required.
1b. NOW I hope it's been cleared up. If you still doubt that the RCC Church has both celibate and married priesthoods, ask a priest. Finding one in Ireland shouldn't be difficult!
My main point, however, which you seem to have missed, is that it is very likely that we will see the Western Church ordaining more married men in the near future, beginning with those who are already active in the deaconate.
2. Ah, that's different. Definitely too young - for anything.
How can...
2. Ah, that's different. Definitely too young - for anything.
By anything you must mean arguing with people almost 4 times my age :-6
I hope I don't come across as too firebrand (A firebrand agnostic LOL) but I've got beliefs, and if we don't have beliefs what have we got?
How can...
Gaius wrote: By anything you must mean arguing with people almost 4 times my age :-6Lord no, boy. Anything as in expressing opinions while you're idealistic and firing on all cylinders. Go off and calcify before you presume to address us in other than deferential submission.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
How can...
Gaius wrote: By anything you must mean arguing with people almost 4 times my age No, I mean taking it out of your pants except when you gotta pee.
How can...
Bronwen,
I don't recall telling you how to live your life. In fact, I haven't even given you any advice on the best way in which to live your life. In that case, why do you feel a need to tell me how to live mine?
I don't recall telling you how to live your life. In fact, I haven't even given you any advice on the best way in which to live your life. In that case, why do you feel a need to tell me how to live mine?