How can...

Gaius · Post by **Gaius** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 2:32 pm

How can Christians base their entire belief system on a 2,000 year old book, written many, many years after the death of Jesus?

Is it not more probable that we are mammels who happened to strike lucky and develop into thinking, creative humans?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 2:36 pm

Gaius wrote: How can Christians base their entire belief system on a 2,000 year old book, written many, many years after the death of Jesus?

Is it not more probable that we are mammels who happened to strike lucky and develop into thinking, creative humans?
More probable than us getting luck & getting Jesus?

What are the odds of us just lucking out & getting all the gear we have, with the skill & balance to use it all, and an advanced computer to run it, d'ya think?

Coulda crapped out & been a snail I guess, eh?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 2:39 pm

Oh, and let's not forget that the Jews & Muslims are pretty much sold on the idea, as well.

along-for-the-ride · Post by **along-for-the-ride** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 2:51 pm

"Loving your neighbor as yourself" is timeless advice, don't ya think?

koan · Post by **koan** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 3:12 pm

Gaius wrote: Is it not more probable that we are mammels who happened to strike lucky and develop into thinking, creative humans?

Unfortunately most people seem more interested in developing mammaries and getting lucky and end up striking the thinking part.

Gaius · Post by **Gaius** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:00 pm

But how much thinking actually went into that?

The evidence doesn't support creationism. Why is there a higher being that oversee's all our actions? Have you ever wondered to stop and ask why? There is no proof for him but a book written many years after Jesus's death. What of the Arians? Those people who claimed Jesus was not divine but an extraordinary human being? They were saying things like this before the Council of Nicea. What of the Council of Nicea itself and the Gospels it threw out, the gospels which were dangerous to a patriarchal, authoritarian society such as Rome was then. Many bishops disagreed with the Councils decision then, and they were in a much better position to comment. They had the other gospels to use as evidence - where are they now? We'll never have the answers because the Four Gospels were hand picked and amended for political means. Organised Christianity is the greatest scam of all time and you've all bought into it.

I apologise if I sound like I'm critiscising you

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:26 pm

Here's my standard:

Why does it matter whether God created reality by laying it all out at once, or by putting down a single seed and nurturing it through evolution into the reality we now know?

That's like making a big deal about whether the manufacturer painted your car by spraying it or dipping it into a vat.

It happened. Hard to argue that since you must exist to do it. So celebrate it. :yh_flower

~~~~~~~~~~

Now Jives can explain God through mathematics. Jives?

memebias · Post by **memebias** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:30 pm

mrsK wrote: I would like to think I am a bit classier & was created by a higher,more intelligent being.

Just my thoughts;)

I'd like to believe too Mrs K. It's a comforting thought to think we are special. Unfortunately, I've been given no valid reason to believe it.

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:33 pm

[quote=Gaius]But how much thinking actually went into that?

Very little I suspect, but faith does not require critical thinking. Gaius, do you really think you will convert anyone on this or any other forum? You are beating a dead horse.

Gaius · Post by **Gaius** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:52 pm

I like the fact no-one has argued the facts at stake.

I don't want to convert anyone. What I hate though is when people begin quoting from ancient texts which were derived as political tools by corrupt people for corrupt reasons! I can understand if people believe in a greater power, really I do, but what I don't like is Ian Paisly spouting religious bigotry from these same said ancient texts which have no relevance in modern society!

I don't like argueing creationism with people because I've never argued it with somebody rationally before, and therein lies the weakness of the argument.

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:09 pm

Youve all? Bought into it? I havent bought into anything... and its very very frightening to fly alone... with no book, no instruction manual... exhillarating also. Im responsible for my own errors, my wrong choices. Have to examine my inner being every day.. to see if I need oil, transmission fluid, a little fine tuning here and there..........l Have I been kind to others? But give the people who need floaties a break.... Leave them be.. They call it swimming too.....If it doesnt hurt anyone, what the heck.....

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:11 pm

Ahh, Weeder.....very VERY nice to see you around again. How's things with you lady?

As for the question....can you be more specific? Is it the organized religion of Christianity you are questioning or evolution vs. creation?

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:12 pm

[quote=Gaius]I like the fact no-one has argued the facts at stake.

That's because they "have been there and done that".

Post by **spot** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:12 pm

Gaius wrote: I don't like argueing creationism with people because I've never argued it with somebody rationally before, and therein lies the weakness of the argument.David Hume had a good go at it back in the eighteenth century, along the lines of: If a well-ordered natural world requires a special designer, then God's mind (being so well-ordered) also requires a special designer. And then this designer would likewise need a designer, and so on ad infinitum. We could respond by resting content with an inexplicably self-ordered divine mind; but then why not rest content with an inexplicably self-ordered natural world?

He said other things on the subject, but that one I find attractive.

Gaius · Post by **Gaius** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:25 pm

It's Organised Religion I can't stand. It's bred corruption. Anything organised has been in some way corrupted, but Religion is what makes me truly sick to the gut at the level in which people are duped. I still go to mass because I have a fundamentalist father and the chants remind me of a prehistoric mating ritual. There is no freedom in religion, and freedom is on what I thrive.

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:29 pm

Hey BR... How are you? Im back after a huge move. and thrilled to be back at FG

As for these relion threads... I always swear I wont post. But I cant help it. I just had a run in with a couple of misguided zealots this past Saturday. So, I always have to try to " enlighten in my unrestricted, ungouverned? kind of way.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:31 pm

Gaius wrote: It's Organised Religion I can't stand. It's bred corruption.
Gaius, you and I haven't been formally introduced yet, I am BabyRider. You and I are going to get along like peanut butter and jelly. Nice to meet ya!! :yh_peace

Gaius · Post by **Gaius** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:35 pm

Glad to meet you too Babyrider!

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:48 pm

Gaius wrote: There is no freedom in religion, and freedom is on what I thrive.

You are still living at home I take it?

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 7:13 pm

David Hume's arguements have come into question since the development of quantum theory.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 7:16 pm

Not all organized religion is corrupt.

Of course anyone can use or misuse the Bible to support their position. It helps to have some understanding.

Someone mentioned Ian Paisley. God preserve us from the likes of him. He certainly does not represent the Christianity that I know.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Post by **spot** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 7:31 pm

Ted wrote: David Hume's arguements have come into question since the development of quantum theory.I do hope, Ted, that you will either expand on that to the point where I can understand why and how, or you'll alternatively provide a URL so that I can follow your argument. I took what he had to say as reasoned and universally applicable.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 7:56 pm

Spot:-6

Neutonian pyhsics has been shown to no longer anwer to all of the questions it was supposed to. It has become very limited. Quantum theory has presented us we problems which are no longer understood under the general scientic paradigm. I can give you some examples: it is now known that observers of an experiemnt can have an effect on the outcome.; what appears to be matter at one time can at times be wave and at other times particles: objects can appear out of nothing; atoms wink in and out of existence; what happens to an atom at one sie of the universe can happen to another one on th eother side of the univers (instandt communications) There seems to me little logic in a "sinularity".

Quantum theory is extremely interesting and very mind boggling.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qm/

Quantum Mechanics

I hope this helps I have a few books on quantum theory and am reading them very slowly. There are other sites aas well.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Post by **spot** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:05 pm

Ted,

Yes, I've read Richard Feynman's Lectures on Physics - I got stuck with Electromagnetism in places, but I did fairly well through his Quantum Theory lectures. What I didn't, and still don't, understand is their relevance to either the philosophy or even the plain logic of the summary, of a small section of Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding, which I posted above and on which you initially commented.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:23 pm

Scot:-6

There is a lot I sure don't understand in QT. Another point I have just read is that matter may in fact only be light slowed down. Just finished reading as well about the atom. The electron may not even exist as a particle but only a wave.

I think the point I was trying to make is that the very nature of reality is under question. Thus Hume's arguement has to be reconsidered in light of the discoveries of QT.

And I bought what was supposed to be a simplified laymans book on QM. It does boggle the mind.

For instance if the beginning of the universe and time began as a singularity. That means that all space and time began as a single minute spot not even in the middle of space but as all that existed. Mind boggling. Everything was created or whatever you want to call it came littereally out of nothing.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Post by **spot** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 10:49 pm

Ted wrote: I think the point I was trying to make is that the very nature of reality is under question. Thus Hume's arguement has to be reconsidered in light of the discoveries of QT.That's probably the point where my understanding of the relevance of Quantum Theory to David Hume's argument fails me. Reality, viewed in any light, is the nature of the physical world. It has nothing to do with, firstly, mathematical logic. That's a system of absolutes built up from given axioms, it holds true within itself, it's isolated from physical reality. Philosophical argument applies logic again to whatever postulates underly the philosophical enquiry. The nature of the universe is quite immaterial to the truth or otherwise of the investigation. I don't see how or why one might apply Quantum Theory, which relates to the real world, to a discussion of logic and its consequent application to a set of starting assumptions, not unless those assumptions relate to matter and energy. They certainly don't do that, in the passage I summarised. Do go back and look at the paragraph we're discussing, if that helps clarify matters. Where does the nature of matter and energy come into the logic of the argument there?

memebias · Post by **memebias** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 1:16 am

mrsK wrote: I think I am special & so are my family & friends:-6

Everyone is special in there own way take that away from me & what have I got left to believe in?

I need to think there is something special & good in everyone & I think deep down there is,it just takes longer for some to get their special attributes to surface:-6

Quite true mrsK. However, we were talking about being 'special' because we are the alleged product of an act of supernatural creation, not the emotional bonds between humans.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 2:25 am

mrsK wrote: I just feel how I feel,I won't debate things as I am not as eloquent as some & can't come up with the fancy words.

I just know how I feel within "me" & what I believe.

I won't try & change your thinking.

I just want to remain happy with how I think about things & how they should be.

I wasn't put here to make a big difference,but if I make someone happy than that is all I ask.

No harm in that ?:-6
MrsK, I don't have all the "fancy" ten-dollar words and I'm far from eloquent, usually, but what you say makes perfect sense to me. What's right for you is what's right for you. It may not be for someone else, but who cares? A person's walk with God, (or without God, or with whomever or whatever they call their "god") is a very personal one, subject only to the individuals scrutiny and choice.

Frankly I think everyone is here to make a difference in one way or another, we just may not always know what difference we've made. :-6

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 2:44 am

mrsK wrote: I would love to know before I leave this place ,that I have made a difference,big or small in someones life.

The best thing that has happened to me recently is that my 13 yr old grandson,comes up to me in front of all his mates,puts his arm around my shoulder & say's "I love you".To me that is pretty cool & I think I have made a difference in his life as he tells very few people he loves them, let alone put his arm around people. He is a very special person & so is his sister.I believe we were given those special grand kids for a reason.Just the same as every grandparent believes the same thing of their grandkids.

I just believe there has to be more than being here ,dying,for no reason.:-6

Gosh now I have gone way off track.
Conversations go off track, it's just how things go sometimes.

Sounds to me like you have found your reason for being here. 13 year old boys don't do things like that out of a sense of obligation. I know, I have a 16 year old! Your grandson sounds like a super young man. :-6

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 3:20 am

JAB wrote: If it's freedom you thrive on, then why are you allowing your father's beliefs hold you prisoner at a mass where you get nothing out of?
Ditto.. My immediate thought.. exactly. Ditching Mass is one of the first ways we who walk away from organized religion.. walk away. At a very young age it is a huge leap towards freedom. Experiencing the fear of pending consequences promised for this action.... then realizing there arent any lightening bolt consequences is the beginning of personal, spiritual journeys.

Gaius · Post by **Gaius** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 3:28 am

*chuckles*

I sometimes smuggle a book into mass, say I have to go to the toilet and sit in the toilet reading. The ironic thing is that I did that for a couple of weeks with the 'Origins of Faith' by David Hillbrough.

No, seriously, I'm seventeen and from a working class family. I want to go to college next year and my parents will be supporting me. It would be a bit selfish and arrogant of me to condescend their religion when they take it so seriously.

(On a side note, being brought up a catholic and all, we were never encouraged to read the bible. Protestant children were bred on scripture whilst catholic children were bred on propaganda. Limbo, papal infallibality, discrimination of women... the list goes on)

memebias · Post by **memebias** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 4:50 am

mrsK wrote: I just feel how I feel,I won't debate things as I am not as eloquent as some & can't come up with the fancy words.

I just know how I feel within "me" & what I believe.

I won't try & change your thinking.

I just want to remain happy with how I think about things & how they should be.

I wasn't put here to make a big difference,but if I make someone happy than that is all I ask.

No harm in that ?:-6

No harm at all mrsK. And fancy words aren't a requirement for expressing your views. I'm glad your happy with the way your life is going, and I hope it continues that way. But don't you ever sometimes wonder about the 'whys' and 'hows' of this universe?

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 5:04 am

Ha! You just made me feel like a mystic! I would have guessed you were exactly 17. I walked away from the catholic church when I was 16. A couple of personal tradgedys made me realize religion wasnt the answer for coping. And yes I also realized the catholics didnt even open the bible. Made up their own map so to speak. e So..... YOUR quest IS just beginning. It is also delightful to have you reveal that you respect the concepts your parents cherish.

Gaius · Post by **Gaius** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 6:53 am

Thanks. I was having doubts from about the age 14. They began as anxiety as to what will happen to me if I die in the middle of the night, I'll go straight to hell because there's no priest nearby to give me the last sacrements? Some of the beliefs the Catholic church instills on you is genuinly scary. I found it hard to sleep some nights because of that crippling fear which doesn't take into account whether you lived a good life respecting others, making love not war etc. which at the end of the day is exactly what Jesus wanted.

(From a personal point of view I respect Jesus. St. Paul, however, I do not respect in the slightest. he highjacked the Christian faith away from the Christians and turned it into an authoritarian patriarchal faith - despite Jesus's feminist leanings)

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 7:09 am

Gaius wrote: Thanks. I was having doubts from about the age 14. They began as anxiety as to what will happen to me if I die in the middle of the night, I'll go straight to hell because there's no priest nearby to give me the last sacrements? Some of the beliefs the Catholic church instills on you is genuinly scary. I found it hard to sleep some nights because of that crippling fear which doesn't take into account whether you lived a good life respecting others, making love not war etc. which at the end of the day is exactly what Jesus wanted.

(From a personal point of view I respect Jesus. St. Paul, however, I do not respect in the slightest. he highjacked the Christian faith away from the Christians and turned it into an authoritarian patriarchal faith - despite Jesus's feminist leanings)First time I've seen Jesus called feminist, but I think I know what you mean.

Bronwen · Post by **Bronwen** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 8:58 am

Gaius wrote: How can Christians base their entire belief system on a 2,000 year old book, written many, many years after the death of Jesus?

Is it not more probable that we are mammels who happened to strike lucky and develop into thinking, creative humans?I'm not sure of your point here.

To answer the first part you would have to study not only the Bible but the history of the Church.

Your second question is a different thing entirely. It relates to the science of anthropology, while the first involves matters of faith.

Once human beings developed sufficient intellect to do so, they began to question the reason for existence - the existence of the universe and of themselves. Many find the best answers to such questions in various forms of religious faith.

Bronwen · Post by **Bronwen** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 9:14 am

weeder wrote: I walked away from the catholic church when I was 16.... And yes I also realized the catholics didnt even open the bible. Made up their own map so to speak.Weeder, on the one hand I feel sorry that your experience with the Catholic Church was so negative.

On the other hand, and I don't mean this to be offensive or confrontational, it's hard to believe that you were ever anything more than a 'nominal' Catholic because of your statement about the Bible. What on earth are you talking about? Did you ever even go to Mass? If you did, and were paying attention, you would have noticed that the Mass is LOADED with Bible readings, some the same every day (the 'ordinary') and some different every day (the 'proper').

I have been reading the Bible ever since I was old enough to read, well over half a century. I've certainly never read anything in there that would lead me away from or make me question my Catholic faith.

Gaius · Post by **Gaius** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 1:17 pm

Compare a protestant primary school to a catholic primary school. Catholic kids read the political propaganda novel, 'The Roman Missil' (Which I call 'Misinformation Central') whilst protestant kids read the Holy Bible, the lesser of two evils. I should know, I came from a catholic school.

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 2:53 pm

Bronwen wrote: Weeder, on the one hand I feel sorry that your experience with the Catholic Church was so negative.

On the other hand, and I don't mean this to be offensive or confrontational, it's hard to believe that you were ever anything more than a 'nominal' Catholic because of your statement about the Bible. What on earth are you talking about? Did you ever even go to Mass? If you did, and were paying attention, you would have noticed that the Mass is LOADED with Bible readings, some the same every day (the 'ordinary') and some different every day (the 'proper').

I have been reading the Bible ever since I was old enough to read, well over half a century. I've certainly never read anything in there that would lead me away from or make me question my Catholic faith.
Dont ever feel sorry for me... Leaving the catholic church was the most liberating action I ever took. Life is too short to live in bondage, governed by rules, regulations and rituals devised by men, created to keep people living in fear. Throwing money into baskets.. to build more buildings.... never knowing that God is everywhere. I feel sorry for the many many devot catholics who entrusted the care of their children to clergy who molested them. And yes, I did attend mass reguarly. Received all my sacraments, and heard the bible "READINGS". How exhilirating it was to discover I could read scripture, myself, directly from the bible. As it was written, not altered to suit the moral slant of religious politicians cloistered away in the vatican, plotting to govern the lives of millions of frightened followers.

Bronwen · Post by **Bronwen** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 9:12 am

Gaius wrote: Compare a protestant primary school to a catholic primary school. Catholic kids read the political propaganda novel, 'The Roman Missil' (Which I call 'Misinformation Central') whilst protestant kids read the Holy Bible, the lesser of two evils. I should know, I came from a catholic school.weeder wrote: Dont ever feel sorry for me... Leaving the catholic church was the most liberating action I ever took. Life is too short to live in bondage, governed by rules, regulations and rituals devised by men, created to keep people living in fear. Throwing money into baskets.. to build more buildings.... never knowing that God is everywhere. I feel sorry for the many many devot catholics who entrusted the care of their children to clergy who molested them. And yes, I did attend mass reguarly. Received all my sacraments, and heard the bible "READINGS". How exhilirating it was to discover I could read scripture, myself, directly from the bible. As it was written, not altered to suit the moral slant of religious politicians cloistered away in the vatican, plotting to govern the lives of millions of frightened followers.Well, I'll think it's possible to address both posts at once because they are so similar, so that's what I'll attempt to do.

One thing Catholics always notice, but which may be less apparent to non-Catholics, is that enemies of the Church often claim, especially when posting anonymously (as here), to be former Catholics, hoping, I guess, that this will somehow enhance their credibility. They then almost always go on to spew out the most outrageous venom against the Church, things that any Catholic knows cannot possibly be true.

I have very little doubt that that is the case here. It is highly doubtful that either Gaius or Weeder has ever been near a Catholic Church or school, or if they have been, they must have spent the entire time there in some sort of coma, because there is little or nothing in their descriptions that rings true.

Gaius, I have never been in a Protestant primary school, so I cannot make that comparison based on experience. My understanding is that, if you are talking about contemporary, so-called 'Christian' schools, students there do indeed study the Bible, which is fine, but they are also taught all manner of outrageous nonsense about such things as the age of the universe, the evolution of species, and, indeed, about the Bible itself, claiming that it is, for example, completely factual in matters never intended as anything but allegory, that BOTH of the two contradictory creation accounts are somehow literally true, that BOTH of the completely irreconcilable genealogies of Jesus in Matthew and Luke are somehow true, and that all of scientific fact is somehow 'of the devil'.

Catholic schools have always been in the forefront of science education at ALL levels, from first grade to some of the greatest universities. Catholic school students learn the truth about God, Bible history, Church history, AND scientific fact. In fact, one reason I remain such a loyal Catholic after more than 65 years is that in all of my years in Catholic schools, I was never taught ANYTHING that I later found to be unfactual or misleading. (Of course, I'm referring here to matters of FACT. Matters are faith are a different thing.) The purpose of the more fundamentalistic 'Christian' (Protestant) schools, as I understand their teachings, seems to be intentionally TO mislead, about the facts of science and about the beliefs of their non-fundamentalist fellow Christians, which would include Catholics.

That having been said, the mainline Protestant denoms, especially the Lutherans and Episcopalians, operate some excellent schools also.

The 'Roman Missal' (note the spelling) is the large book that the priest uses at Mass, which contains all of the prayers, benedictions, and Bible readings. It is hardly a 'novel', nor propagandistic, nor used in school classroooms, except possibly in seminaries, nor does it contain any 'misinformation' that I am aware of. Maybe you could be more specific, though I doubt it, since you obviously have no idea of what you're talking about.

I have always been amazed at how irreligious people characterize not only Roman Catholics but in many cases Christians in general, as 'frightened' or living in 'bondage' and 'fear'. Any true Christian knows that the exact opposite is true. Following Christ's teachings and the example of His life is probably the most liberating experience man can find.

Weeder, can you support your assertion that Catholics 'never know that God is everywhere'? Can you give any link to a Catholic source that would support that? Regarding the sacraments, you claim to have received all of them. Can you even NAME the sacraments? Do you even know how many there are? Can you give a brief description of under what circumstances you received each of them? This should be good.

And while you're at it, how do you support your claim that Bibles read by Catholics are 'altered to suit the moral slant of religious politicians cloistered away in the vatican...'. Can you give examples of this? Most modern translations are the result of interdenominational scholarship, Catholic-Protestant or Catholic-Protestant-Jewish. Even in older versions that were the result of Catholic scholarship entirely, I have never known any Bible scholar to make such a claim. What do you know that no one else does? Lay it on us.

Also, you claim to read the Bible 'as it was written'. Where did you study the Hebrew and Greek languages? Do you even know which parts of the Bible were written in Hebrew and which in Greek? Do you understand all of the wordplay and nuance that is lost in the translation to English or other languages? What are your scholarly credentials?

Would either of you care to name the Catholic Church or school that you attended? When did you attend and who was the pastor or principal at the time?

Finally, regarding the abuse scandal, I addressed this recently on another thread, where I said: I don't know a single Catholic who isn't outraged over the way the situation was handled by Church officials. It was unforgivable and everyone knows it. What you ignore here, however, is that the problem is pedophilia, not Catholicism. Several other denominations, including but not limited to the Anglicans/Episcopalians, the Amish, the Mormons, and Jehovah's Witnesses have admitted similar problems, not only with the actual offenses, but with how they were handled by church officials. Should we conclude that the situation is different in the various denominations which have NOT made such admissions? Of course not.Lest there be any misunderstanding, I certainly don't consider the Catholic Church to be above or beyond criticism (the recent abuse scandal being a prime example); in fact, if I wished to do so I could start a thread of such criticism myself. But criticism of ANY institution should be based on fact and not deceit. 'Making it up as you go along', as Gaius and Weeder seem to be doing, doesn't cut it, unless you have no sense of honesty or morality.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 9:47 am

Bronwen wrote: Well, I'll think it's possible to address both posts at once because they are so similar, so that's what I'll attempt to do.

One thing Catholics always notice, but which may be less apparent to non-Catholics, is that enemies of the Church often claim, especially when posting anonymously (as here), to be former Catholics, hoping, I guess, that this will somehow enhance their credibility. They then almost always go on to spew out the most outrageous venom against the Church, things that any Catholic knows cannot possibly be true.
Translation: You don't like what I like so you can't possibly be Catholic. :yh_rotfl I'll assume the rest is similar bloviation and move on.