Brokeback Mountain

[Jives]

Clancy wrote: Bez asked a perfectly valid question,


No she didn't....this is not a question:

I'm not at all surprised at yours and Fars objections and opinions and I respect them as much as I do Snoozys or anyone elses. That is the true value of our Forum that we can debate and discuss such topics.


It's a statement, and a noncommittal one. And speaking of noncommittal, I notice you didn't express any opinion either. What's the matter? Afraid to voice your views?

:wah:

It looks like your forcing your dogma onto others who want no part, or disagree in part, of what your saying.


I'm standing up for decency and civilty. What are you standing for? Or are you yet another apathetic "it's no big deal" lackey?

....and as for family values? The advice threads in here are awash with hetro's having problems with their, wives, husbands, brothers, sisters, daughters, mothers, fathers, etc, etc, Being hetrosexual brings no guarentee that civility, morality, or dignity will be exacted.


I never said it was. What I said is that I'm against setting masculine heroes as homosexuals and selling it to the masses as "normality." I'm also against violent music, desensitizing lyrics, murder, rape, child molesting and all other froms of evil in our society.

To me it is a big deal. You see, my parents were funny, they taught me that honesty, integrity, decency (that's where homosexuality comes in, it's indecent) and dignity were critical values to have.

Did you learn something else from your parents? If so, what?

The remark you made: "Snooze don't you roll your eyes at me" when she was addressing someone else, gives me the impression that you feel obliged to diminish, or demean her views and opinion while addressing someone else.


Wrong. It's just my way of segueing into the conversation. Besides, Her emoticon represents an emotion. Sepcifically that this subject is not worthy of passion. I disagree, therefore I took it to mean me. Simple, eh?

Personally, I dont agree with your views


So you are saying that you are for homosexual sex on the big screen, dealing pornography to children, death, murder, rape, mayhem, and child molesting, eh? They all fall in the same category to me. They are all wrong.

No wonder you are threatened by my views.

I was more interested in hearing the viewpoints from the question raised by, Bez. but it looks as if your going to steamroller anyone who has an opinion that doesn't meet with your own.


You would have me stay silent while horrifying evil pervades our society? Not bloody likely. The louder you argue for evil and wrong, the louder I'll shout for goodness and right.

This movie is about glorifying anal sex between men. Children will see this movie and think it's cool. Everybody who is for that please raise your hand.

Is your hand raised, Clancy?

[Yavanna]

The idea of equating moralilty with sexual preference is alien to me. It's like saying "I like cheese but not bread - darn it, better not have any kids in case I corrupt them."

Morality (even if one could define it) stems from the mind and soul - not the body. It's our intentwhich makes our behaviour moral or immoral, not the body shape or gender we're attracted to. A heterosexual man who rapes his wife every Friday night after drinking too much behaves immorally ; a homosexual guy who loves and respects his partner behaves morally. So what ? People are just people, good, bad, indifferent or (more often than not) a mixture of all three.

To call homosexuality a birth defect strikes me as being cruel : it makes me wonder where kindness and compassion for your fellow man fits into your scale of values and decency, Jives. Those two qualities figure much higher on any list of moral or religious characteristics than "Thou shalt denigrate and insult gay people."

I mean, come on, the world is full of such violence and desperation - why is that what some people choose to do in the bedroom attracts such disdain?

As to this particular film and the outrage it seems to have generated because the protagonists are cowboys........if there's a genre in literature or cinema that hasn't been turned upside down, satirised, etc, please do tell. I'd be fascinated to hear about it. I always thought Blazing Saddles was a gay and inter-racial love story anyway......:p

[SOJOURNER]

Yavanna wrote: I always thought Blazing Saddles was a gay and inter-racial love story anyway......:p

[Jives]

Yavanna wrote: T

To call homosexuality a birth defect strikes me as being cruel :


Nope. It's just science. Male homosexuals have female structures in their brains, as do female homosexuals. In fact all mammals have the same incidence of homosexuality, approximately 2%. There are homosexual rabbits, dogs, cats, and dolphins.

See this research:

http://members.aol.com/slevay/page22.html



Research shows the brains of homosexuals are structurally different

from heterosexuals, which could suggest that the homosexual tendency

is imprinted in the brain from birth. So it is not necessarily a

psychological condition, nor a religious one. Since homosexually has

been around since...well..homo sapiens, this makes more since with the

real world as well.

Simon LeVay observed that INAH3 was more than twice as large in the

men as in the women. But INAH3 was also between two and three fumes

larger in the straight men than in the gay men. In some gay men, as in

the example shown at the top of the opposite page, the cell group was

altogether absent. Statistical analysis indicated that the probability

of this result's being attributed to chance was about one in 1,000. In

fact, there was no significant difference between volumes of INAH3 in

the gay men and in the women. So the investigation suggested a

dimorphism related to male sexual orientation about as great as that

related to sex.

One other feature in brains that is related to sexual orientation has

been reported by Allen and Gorski. They found that the anterior

commissure, a bundle of fibers running across the midline of the

brain, is smallest in heterosexual men, larger in women and largest in

gay men. After correcting for overall brain size, the anterior

commissure in women and in gay men were comparable in size.

I mean, come on, the world is full of such violence and desperation - why is that what some people choose to do in the bedroom attracts such disdain?


Yet another poster who "poo-poos" the wholesale denigration of masculine role-models. It attracts disdain because abnormailty is being sold wholesale to the masses and to children. You should be worried, very worried. Not apathetic.

if there's a genre in literature or cinema that hasn't been turned upside down, satirised, etc, please do tell.


Well maybe decent people, (a category you, yourself seem to decry) have had enough of our values being denigrated. maybe this is where we say, "This far and no further." Maybe this movie crosses the line and attacks the very core of our society. And maybe you are so jaded and warped that you can't see it.

[minks]

Bez wrote: A question ! What would ANY of you do if your son or daughter told you that they were GAY. Bear in mind that homosexuality is not an illness that you can cure, nor is it a cultish thing that you can persuade someone not to join. It is not an addiction neither is it a mental illness. A gay person is gay for life.

Many people here have very strong family values....would these be shattered if a child proclaimed themselves to be gay ? How much would it test your love and support for them ?
I would like to just tip toe in here for a moment... you touched on an interesting point Bez, "cultish" Ummmm I really think it has some cultishness to it. Especially among young females. I know for a fact some of the female gender claim to be Bi curious.... just how did that happen, because suddenly it became OK to be so. Ok were they born bi? Or did they develop this curiosity and because it is ok to explore it they will follow suit.

Cultish yes and wrong.

[SOJOURNER]

minks wrote: I would like to just tip toe in here for a moment... you touched on an interesting point Bez, "cultish" Ummmm I really think it has some cultishness to it. Especially among young females. I know for a fact some of the female gender claim to be Bi curious.... just how did that happen, because suddenly it became OK to be so. Ok were they born bi? Or did they develop this curiosity and because it is ok to explore it they will follow suit.

Cultish yes and wrong.


Maybe just extremely sexual and exploring all avenues...........:rolleyes:

[SOJOURNER]

Clancy wrote: [QUOTE=Jives]No she didn't....this is not a question:



This certainly looks like a question to me ..............

From , Bez.

A question ! What would ANY of you do if your son or daughter told you that they were GAY. Bear in mind that homosexuality is not an illness that you can cure, nor is it a cultish thing that you can persuade someone not to join. It is not an addiction neither is it a mental illness. A gay person is gay for life.

Many people here have very strong family values....would these be shattered if a child proclaimed themselves to be gay ? How much would it test your love and support for them ?


If it walks like a duck,

and it quacks like a duck,

By golly, Jives, IT IS A DUCK! :-6

[Jives]

KarazePapa wrote: SC are you talking to me. If you are, I merely put the review up so all could read. As far as my opinions, they are my opinions and when I want to express them, everyone will surely hear them. I will keep my COWBOY mouth shut tight.


I'm from Montana, too, Karaze. I guess we both know where we got our perceptions of right and wrong...

the Code of the West.

[Jives]

Clancy wrote: [QUOTE=Jives]

A question ! What would ANY of you do if your son or daughter told you that they were GAY. Bear in mind that homosexuality is not an illness that you can cure, nor is it a cultish thing that you can persuade someone not to join. It is not an addiction neither is it a mental illness. A gay person is gay for life.

Many people here have very strong family values....would these be shattered if a child proclaimed themselves to be gay ? How much would it test your love and support for them ?


Hmm..I must have missed that one. Well, apart from feeling sorry for them and their birth defect, I know one thing I WOULDN'T do...

advise them to put their homosexuality on the big screen for the children to see.:wah:

[Bez]

I've posted several times in this thread.



1st post was a question...I was seeking peoples opinions

"

A question ! What would ANY of you do if your son or daughter told you that they were GAY. Bear in mind that homosexuality is not an illness that you can cure, nor is it a cultish thing that you can persuade someone not to join. It is not an addiction neither is it a mental illness. A gay person is gay for life.

Many people here have very strong family values....would these be shattered if a child proclaimed themselves to be gay ? How much would it test your love and support for them ?"



The 2nd was in reply to a statement made...



Far...I didn't actually SAY it was 'a natural way' did I, I was only stating the facts that I have read and asking a question from a parents point of view. In fact I haven't actually expressed an opinion."



The 3rd was another reply to a statement made



"I'm not at all surprised at yours and Fars objections and opinions and I respect them as much as I do Snoozys or anyone elses. That is the true value of our Forum that we can debate and discuss such topics."



The 4th was a statement of my own experiences following a friendly challenge



"O.K..... seeing as I'm being challenged, I will climb down from the fence ( before I'm knocked down )

I have a wonderful male relation that is gay. He is witty, intelligent, kind and as masculine a person as you could find. Runs marathons, cycles up mountains for fun and charity, is very successful in his career etc etc.

I had a very good female friend at work who is gay...she was a wonderful, successful person who left work to take up voluntary work with underpriviledged kids in South America.

I know other gay people through my Buddhist practise who lead normal quiet, hardworking lives.

I do have a problem with gay couples as families with children, not because they can't provide a loving, safe environment but because of societies reactions to that particular family group and the effect that that could have on the children in the future.

I do have problems with some of the exhibitionist antics a few get up to.

In short, I have no problem with gay people, people who practise other religions or people from other countries. I speak as I find.

Good people are the treasures of this planet.

Bad people are poison....simple as that. "



The 5th was a response to a friendly challenge/statement



Noncommital - I've already posted my stand on homosexuality

Dignity, morality, civility....add to those respect, love, kindess, honesty, integrity, tolerance, generosity of spirit etc etc. These are the things where I do stand side by side with you...:-4

These are also the things missing in some of your pupils lives Jives....we see it in the UK. I am thankful that my own kids have grown up with with a fair helping of these attributes.



My opinions and experiences are mine to express as are everyone elses.

If anyone was offendended, I apologise. Make no mistake...I have HIGH moral standards and you will find nothing but honesty and I hope integrity in the above posts. xxx



__________________

[Jives]

The Montana cowboy has shown me the way!

I'm outta this thread. I apologize to any that have been offended by my views, but then this movie offends me to my core..

so don't count on me taking anything back.

[Jives]

Clancy wrote: I am not in favour of homosexual sex on the big screen, especially where children are concerned.


Sweeet! You're on MY side! Thanks for that vote of confidence! Well why didn't you say so before?

ROFLMAO!!!:wah:

[valerie]

Jives, I want to ask you something... how does a 53 year old hetero

woman (ME) going to see this movie corrupt the morals of our youth?

I haven't gone out in the street and shouted out a review to the neighborhood kids.



I don't (by choice) have children of my own, so I'm not raising them

to go see it, either.



The only thing I can think of I've done recently around here with YOUTH

is tell them to quit being potty mouths out on the street with little

ones around. And they quit immediately and were contrite. Soooo, am

I helping a little because of that or does me going and seeing this film

negate that?



And, do you think, if homosexuals are a "birth defect" that they should

just know that in themselves and never their whole lives have sexual

congress with another human being?



You obviously aren't going to change the minds of anybody here (and

we aren't going to change yours) so what else are you doing if you

believe so strongly this film is wrong? Picket your local theater? (I'm

NOT trying to be sarcastic, that's a serious question) I know you said

you are advising everybody you know to boycott it, but if they

are friends who generally agree with your views, then....?



There are some men I respect in my life. Father, brother, husband,

Tombstone... you and Far are on that list and Clancy is rising fast.

But I have to tell you, you lose a little when you say things like "Shame

on you" to people. I don't agree with your opinion but I DO like to read

it until you break down into that kind of stuff.

[Bez]

Jives wrote: The Montana cowboy has shown me the way!



I'm outta this thread. I apologize to any that have been offended by my views, but then this movie offends me to my core..



so don't count on me taking anything back.


I wouldn't expect or want you to take anything back Jives. There was a lively debate and i'm sure there'll be many more in the future....geez...I haven't even seen the film !:-6

[Jives]

Havre, Montana, Karaze! Way up on the high line. I spent most of my youth there.

Since you are Montanan, you can obviously see why I am so incensed at this movie.

[Jives]

Clancy wrote: You touched on how students that you teach have little regard for authority....to me thats a bigger problem than the release of a film.


I guess that's what disappoints me the most. Most of you here don't seem to think that there is a connection to the deterioration of society and the release of a mass-marketed film on homosexuality.

There is.:rolleyes:

[Jives]

SnoozeControl wrote: My mother refused to let me see "Carbaret" when it came out... I think I was 13. She was sure the gender bender issues would destroy my soul. All I saw was a guy wearing make-up. I think you put too much faith in the corrupting influence of movies.


Really? And yet, here you are, many years later, condoning homosexuality on the big screen. Did you ever think that perhaps your mother was right? Maybe it did warp you.

And why would you disagree with my stand, when it is the same as your mother's?

You see, that's the insidious nature of these kinds of trash. It's just a song. It's just a movie, it's just a murder. After a while, it just doesn't seem to be that big of a deal.

Somewhere, we have to stop and take a good look at the damage all of these little things have done to our society.

I really don't know why I'm surprised, yesterday I saw a 14 year old playing a videogame where he got into a car with a hooker, had sex with her (the car was shaking) then pulled her out, beat her up and took her money.

Somehow, a homosexual cowboy movie just seems to be the icing on the cake for me. The straw that broke this camel's back.

I can't take it anymore and I'm going to take a stand against it.

[StupidCowboyTricks]

Clancy wrote: ....Here. You left out part of it...



..however, in my opinion the release of a film has lower priorty than our other present problems within our respective societies.


There is a rating for this movie.

There was no big love scene )it was no big drawn out deal)......you see more on HBO!

The violence in this movie was......you got it homophobes!

[Jives]

StupidCowboyTricks wrote:

There was no big love scene.you see more on HBO!


That's supposed to make me feel better?!!



It just proves my point that the unacceptable is becoming the acceptable, and it's all wrong!:mad:

[Bez]

Jives wrote: I guess that's what disappoints me the most. Most of you here don't seem to think that there is a connection to the deterioration of society and the release of a mass-marketed film on homosexuality.



There is.:rolleyes:


Mass marketed films that include drug taking, foul language, mindless violence, rampaging gangs, pimping, people trafficking ,racism, prostitution, domestic violence, klu klux klan, gansters etc etc concern me more...these are the true diseases of society. I avoid these types of films like the plague !



I also have a problem with some of the PC and playstation games that contain violence .... these things can be copied so easily by kids

[Jives]

SnoozeControl wrote: I'm a pretty damn good person, and I really resent you inferring otherwise.


Tsk. Tsk. I never said you were a bad person. Only that you condone homosexuality. Isn't that what you said?

I pointed out that your own mother was on my side in this argument, you might get upset, but you shouldn't be insulted.

Who made you the arbiter of what's acceptable in this country?


My parents, who taught me that this is wrong , Just as yours tried to do. They also taught me to stand up against wrong things.

:rolleyes:

[Jives]

Bez wrote: Mass marketed films that include drug taking, foul language, mindless violence, rampaging gangs, pimping, people trafficking ,racism, prostitution, domestic violence, klu klux klan, gansters etc etc concern me more...these are the true diseases of society. I avoid these types of films like the plague !



I also have a problem with some of the PC and playstation games that contain violence .... these things can be copied so easily by kids


Thank you, Bez. Now we are getting to the crux of the argument. Nobody here argues with me that negativity is not only bad for our children, it's bad for society as a whole.

The problem you have with me is that I put homosexuality in the same category as these things and you don't.

So let me make my stand perfectly clear. I'm against the erosion of all the little things that make us who we are. And to my mind, this movie chips away just a little bit more at that.

[Accountable]

Jives, you said this to Snooze. I'd call it an insult, as any reasonable person would.

Jives wrote: Really? And yet, here you are, many years later, condoning homosexuality on the big screen. Did you ever think that perhaps your mother was right? Maybe it did warp you.


My question is about this statement. What does heterosexual sex with a hooker have to do with a homosexual movie?

Jives wrote: I really don't know why I'm surprised, yesterday I saw a 14 year old playing a videogame where he got into a car with a hooker, had sex with her (the car was shaking) then pulled her out, beat her up and took her money.

[valerie]

??????????

[Jives]

Really? I call it logic. It seemed to me that she proved my point.

1. She tells me that her mother was against gender-slanting movies and was afraid it would impact her psyche.

2. She tells me that she condones homosexual movies, specifically this one.

3. Therefore: it is entirely possible that her mother was right and that her previous exposure to this sort of thing at an impressionable age has impacted her ability to tell right from wrong.

Elementary, my dear Accountable.

[valerie]

He must have put me on his ignore list... oh well.



Take him right off my respect list, I guess.



:-1

[Jives]

Accountable wrote:

My question is about this statement. What does heterosexual sex with a hooker have to do with a homosexual movie?




Glad you asked, my friend!

That's the point I've been trying to make. Exposing young children to such illicit and despicable behavior at an impressionable age is wrong. Whether it's a videogame or a movie about homosexual cowboys.

Both the movie and the videogame are equally responsible for what I see as the degredation of all that we used to hold dear. Courtesy, responsibility, honesty, integrity, and dignity. But most of all.....

decency.

This movie, just like the videogame, is indecent.

[Jives]

valerie wrote: ??????????






Huh? What's the question Valerie?:wah:

[Bez]

Far Rider wrote: Indeed you did not say that exactly but it seemed to me that was your point. I apologize for putting words in your mouth.


No apology needed :-6

[Jives]

Clancy wrote:

I also think your approach on how you have inferred , and made assumptions, has been insulting. Perhaps if you were to make more of an effort in lobbying the people who can make a difference, instead of your off-handed remarks to the members in here, your ideals on how you'd like things to be would be more fruitful.


Pfft. Let's get this straight, Clancy. When I got into this thread everyone who had posted was for the film.

I'm against it. I consider it despicable, detestable and abhorrent.

What that means is that I'm antagonistic to you, not insulting.

Instead of bashing me for believing in old-fashioned values, why not consider what I've said? You, yourself, know that I'm standing up for all that's good in the world.

Why is that a bad thing?

;)

[Accountable]

Gettin in late on this one. Just as well, I'm sure. Here's my take on homosexuality. It's not a switch in one's head. It's a continuum. Most of our preferences fall on a continuum from one extreme to another:



Only Men Only Women





Pedophile Necropheliac





Anorexic Orca




I'm sure there are dozens more, but you get the picture. The type of person one is sexually attracted to is not a choice, it is nature. Whether one acts on that attraction is absolutely a choice. Behavior is always a choice.



If a person falls somewhere in the middle of one of the continua, let's say the man/woman one since that's the subject at hand, he or she may be tempted by people of both sexes. The choice of which way to go will be strongly swayed by societal or familial standards. Therefore, if society says it's okay to be homosexual, more kids are likely to check it out to see if it's for them.



When society goes against one's personal moral preferences, one still has his or her own familial standards to uphold.



Good luck.