Beating Domestic violence....

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 3:53 pm

I have been pondering a new thread to post, and I hope this one gets the responses it is meant to inspire.

I have noticed, in my browsing through the forum, that several women here allude to having been in situations of domestic violence. (I refuse to use the term "victim".) And I would love to hear the stories of their survival, how they got out, and the changes that have resulted in their lives because of their experience.

I do not mean this as a topic for "man-bashing", as I think that it is pointless, and offensive. But I would like to hear inspirational stories! My own is rather enlightening, and I'll post it later, if I get any replies to this one! Another part of my intention here, is hoping that our stories may be seen by someone in a situation like this, and be helped by them.

persephone · Post by **persephone** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 4:02 pm

To stop it being a thread about men-bashing, when I first met my friends son, who is the same age as me, he had black eyes and cuts all over his face... It was Christmas 2003 and I assumed he had been in a drunken fight as lads tend to get into from time to time.

A few months later, I learned the truth.

His girlfriend is a drug user and beats him up, this past November it continued out onto the street where a passer by assumed it was him beating on her and help him long enough for his nose to be broken and a few ribs, by her.

He has again gone back to her because he says he loves her.

Her previous boyfriend jumped out of a second floor window to get away from her breaking his leg, everyone also assumed she was defending herself.

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 4:05 pm

BabyRider wrote: I have been pondering a new thread to post, and I hope this one gets the responses it is meant to inspire.

I have noticed, in my browsing through the forum, that several women here allude to having been in situations of domestic violence. (I refuse to use the term "victim".) And I would love to hear the stories of their survival, how they got out, and the changes that have resulted in their lives because of their experience.

I do not mean this as a topic for "man-bashing", as I think that it is pointless, and offensive. But I would like to hear inspirational stories! My own is rather enlightening, and I'll post it later, if I get any replies to this one! Another part of my intention here, is hoping that our stories may be seen by someone in a situation like this, and be helped by them. Good Point BabyRider.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 4:06 pm

It's unfortunate, and true, that domestic violence is not a male-only crime. We don't hear about it as much because men feel ashamed if they are getting hit by a woman. Which is absurd, because violence is violence, no matter who is committing it. So yes, please, let's avoid bashing any men here. I'm looking for inspiration, not bitterness and vengefulness. Thanks for pointing this out letha!

persephone · Post by **persephone** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 4:29 pm

It is absurd, but again it is a society issue. Society still finds it difficult to except that things have turned and the women is not the defenceless creature she once was.

Peg · Post by **Peg** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 4:39 pm

I stayed in an abusive marriage for 3 1/2 years. Why? I loved him and every time he promised to change, I so hoped he would. When I filed for divorce, it was a spur of the moment thing. Things had been going good for about a week and I was waiting for the bomb to drop. I woke up one more and decided I couldn't live like that, knowing if he didn't kill me, I would kill him in order to survive. I called an attorney and went in that day. I sold Avon to pay for my divorce. Me, being a sucker, let him stay until the final divorce at which time the judge told him I wanted him out and to get out. He left with me promising to go on a date with him. When it came time for the date, I became ill and couldn't go. What a coincidence! He was watching my doors, looking in my windows, etc. Finally I told him a neighbor gave me a gun, he taught me to shoot, would I use it? I babysat which paid my rent, etc. Finally, his dad paid him to move to Florida under the condition he never came back because the FBI and state fire marshall were asking questions about him. That was 22 years ago and I haven't seen him since. This lying, drinking, abusive person became a preacher from what I hear. Divorcing him was the best thing I ever did in my life. I don't know how or why I stayed because I honestly believe that if my husband ever even threatened to hit me, I'd probably kick him out and never look back. Not for the lack of love, but because I now know I deserve better than to be treated as a punching bag.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 4:55 pm

Florrie wrote: And the hidden stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:-5 Kids beating up on parents :-5
Florrie, while I know of this problem and am sympathetic to anyone in a situation like that, I am hoping for survivors of domestic violence between husbands and wives or boyfriends and girlfriends, etc...(or anyone with experience) to share the stories of their circumstances. Perhaps your topic is for a whole separate thread, seeing as the implications of each are so different? I do think it is very important, just such a separate set of problems.

Paula · Post by **Paula** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 6:41 pm

I think every-one one time or another has experienced domestic violence? Lady-cop is correct and knows the best, that drugs and booze plays a big role. women are more into these days meth, crack cocaine, etc..these are very addicting. IF they only knew what a BETTER life they would have WITHOUT DRUGS. Domestic violence can turn habitual. Why can't this country give money to help people here start a new life. Indonesia will be far better of now with the help it is getting? It will be a better place in the long run!

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 7:26 pm

Paula wrote: I think every-one one time or another has experienced domestic violence?
I think there would be several people who would disagree with you, Paula. What is your story about domestic violence? I'll tell you mine, since that's what this discussion is for. NOT to discuss the evils of drug abuse. And while I agree that LadyCop has seen more than most, both in her professional and personal life, her input about drugs is a bit more "to-the-point". So here's my story, maybe this will get the ball rolling. And thanks to Peg, for your effort!

I was 24 when I met "Dan". Had a wonderful time with him, for about 3 months. The first time I pissed him off, was in front of a crowd of my "friends." He asked to talk to me outside, in the backyard, where he promptly knocked me down, and grabbed my head with both hands, twisted, and tried, very hard, to break my neck. I was so shocked and taken by surprise that I couldn't respond in any way. Not to mention the fact that I couldn't breathe. When he let go, I lay there, trying to make sense of what happened, and he split. The next day, he came over, crying, begging forgiveness, swearing up and down that it would never EVER happen again. I was to hear that lie MANY times in the next 5 years. I won't go into all the gory details, but for a general idea, I have been knocked down flights of stairs, (once with a 50 lb. bag of dog food, THAT was an interesting trip) punched in the face more times than I can count, punched in my stomach, and my head, bitten, (once to the point I thought I would lose 2 fingers), slapped, thrown down, thrown from moving vehicles, tripped, choked, and slammed in the head and face with cupboard and refrigerator doors. I was in the hospital more than once, and had to make up new and ever-more creative lies to my family and co-workers. All the while making excuses for him. When I had had enough, for the LAST time, I was out with some friends, without him. I was leaving, sitting in my car, letting it warm up before pulling out, when the driver's side window blew in, shattering all over me, down my shirt, in my face, everywhere. I turned to see what the hell happened, and was looking into the barrel of a rifle. It's really true, what they say about seeing your life flash before your eyes. That does happen. We just sat there, for what was probably 3 or 4 seconds and felt like 3 hours. He swore, pulled the gun out of my face and walked off. I took off as fast as I could, once my heart started beating again, and cried for 2 days. I spent several months doing nothing but working and sleeping, certainly not dating! I wanted nothing to do with men, thank you very much.

Then one day a friend took me to a party and I met another, very nice, man. I agreed to go on a date with him, and he was to pick me up the following Friday. When he got to my house, I was not quite ready and was pulling on my shoes, holding myself up with one hand against a wall, right by a window. My date is sitting across from me, when he gets this look on his face...hard to explain it...it went from confusion, to concern, to anger, all in about 2 seconds. Then I heard my window being opened, turned, and coming through the window is Dan's hand, wrapping into my hair and trying to pull me through the window. I locked up, just froze, and looked to my date, and he was already on his way out the door.

By the time I got to the driveway, Dan had a broken nose and was bleeding everywhere. I was stunned. I couldn't believe that this "person" who had tortured me for so long could actually be hurt! But he was. He tried to come after me anyway, but my date was having none of that.

Apparently, he had been watching me all the time. He was happy to keep his distance as long as I was alone, but the first time he saw a man come to my house, he snapped. Again. He came back later and slashed all of my date's tires. Finally, someone was going to press charges on this guy that would stick! Nope. He got probation, and continued to stalk me and harass me for years. I don't know if he just tired of it, or what, but every few years, I run into him. I was at a July 4th festival and he just stepped out of the crowd right in front of me. I still have nightmares. These are the effects this situation had on me. The bad ones. But you know what? I'm here. I found a man I love more than anything in the world, I learned to trust people again, and I beat him. He no longer controls my life.

There are ways out, there are things you can do to make yourself safe. I will never be a victim again. I am whole, and proof that a woman CAN get out of a situation like this. She just needs to realize that she is worth more than this kind of life. And now I know I am.

Paula · Post by **Paula** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 7:44 pm

bABEs...there is too much energy in your post for me to consume....i have a difficult time reading long posts? you experienced trauma? I am a MOTHER, A foster MOM, A leader, a Boss! What is it you want? Brief explanantion is better! You learn that with business...I am not here to support another for their opinions, i said what i knew about the subject...aGaIN -- it happens!

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 8:01 pm

What I want, Paula, is for people to read the ORIGINAL post, grasp it's meaning and intent, and share their personal experiences in an effort to help those who need it, and inspire ones who have been there! Since it seemed I was so vague in my original post, I decided to give the WHOLE story. Or at least the shortened version. And it seems to me what you know about the subject just MIGHT fill a thimble. :yh_angry

Sheesh! Is this really such a difficult concept to grasp? Are my ideas so "OUT THERE"???

Paula · Post by **Paula** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 8:11 pm

BabyRider wrote: What I want, Paula, is for people to read the ORIGINAL post, grasp it's meaning and intent, and share their personal experiences in an effort to help those who need it, and inspire ones who have been there! Since it seemed I was so vague in my original post, I decided to give the WHOLE story. Or at least the shortened version. And it seems to me what you know about the subject just MIGHT fill a thimble. :yh_angry

Sheesh! Is this really such a difficult concept to grasp? Are my ideas so "OUT THERE"???

DeAr SwEeT PEa...you are pulling me into your wrath, as the tide moved i was sucked into the water, i swallowed and then realized i lived? hahahaha....group theraphy is working....i cannot help anyone with posts...to share is nonsense to a degree...i am not here to BLOW my NOSE on MY shirt....YOU need a hair sample tested...ASaP...

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 8:14 pm

Paula wrote: DeAr SwEeT PEa...you are pulling me into your wrath, as the tide moved i was sucked into the water, i swallowed and then realized i lived? hahahaha....group theraphy is working....i cannot help anyone with posts...to share is nonsense to a degree...i am not here to BLOW my NOSE on MY shirt....YOU need a hair sample tested...ASaP...Can anyone who speaks some language found on EARTH please explain to me exactly what this means???

:yh_rotfl

Paula · Post by **Paula** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 8:37 pm

Never be afraid of yourself? or me for that matter...i am so much fun you will pee...don't be afraid, you said you liked it here...i do not attach myself to anyone, i just express my PAULA....From your posts.... :-6 be sunny and if you could be a plant, I AM POsion Ivy, what would you be???laugh..hahhahahahha

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 9:03 pm

ANYway...back at the ranch...

Let's drag this back to where it's meant to be. Anyone with some experience want to hop on in? Thanks to Peg and Ladycop for their input! :yh_peace

Paula · Post by **Paula** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 9:07 pm

Montel Williams...

Der Wulf · Post by **Der Wulf** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 9:13 pm

BabyRider wrote: Can anyone who speaks some language found on EARTH please explain to me exactly what this means???

:yh_rotfl
schizophrenia :yh_sad

Peg · Post by **Peg** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 10:25 pm

It's a great topic in my opinion. The intent of this thread was quite clear. I hate to see it brought down. People do need to realize that they do not need to live their lives in fear. that violence should not be part of their every day lives. It's too late for the girl down the road from me. Her kids get to go through life knowing mommy is dead and daddy is in prison for killing her. If just once, she had the guts to get out, she may be alive today.

persephone · Post by **persephone** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 10:58 pm

Paula wrote: I think every-one one time or another has experienced domestic violence?Paula is most likely correct, even more so if you change the word "violence" to abuse. Domestic abuse is not limited to physical abuse, there is also alot of emotional abuse that goes on in the home.

It can often be worse, there are no bruises for people to see, and it is difficult to explain to anyone. What is one persons emotional abuse is not always anothers.

koan · Post by **koan** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 12:09 am

Paula, This is not a thread where you can safely ridicule. Think before you post. I among others will unleash my wrath if you make fun of people who are telling their abuse stories. It is not an idle warning and I only give it once.

I have been in a couple of abuse situations. The longest lasting was in childhood and I hesitate to give details because my parents (who were not the abusers) know about this Forum. Big mistake. I might get over it and tell that story later.

I lived with a "man" when I was 17 for just over two years. He was perfect for about three months then he slowly transformed. Slowly. That is the problem. It is much harder to identify abuse when it happens gradually. I hadn't even heard the term mysogynist until after I finally left him. As soon as he had gained my love, he started sleeping with my "friends" and telling people things about me so that I would be isolated. A few of them wouldn't give him the time of day and thought I should leave him so he suggested we move. Quite far away.

Once I was removed from my family and friends I became his slave. I found out later that he told everyone that I had followed him from the last city and wasn't really his girlfriend. He just let me live with him because he felt sorry for me. He degraded and humiliated me on a regular basis until I was either going to lose my soul or fight back. I'm more of a fighter. After he raped me one night I made up my mind that I would leave him...even if it meant moving back in with my parents. Not a good thing at the time. I was afraid of him because the emotional abuse was starting to become more physical and he had threatened to hurt me in very specific, sexual ways. So I prepared my escape with one confidante and kept it a secret until everything was ready. I hid for a week at a friends house that he didn't know just to avoid the phone calls. Why are phone calls bad? Because after letting someone destroy your confidence and self esteem for so long it doesn't take much to think you want them back. Especially at the one year mark. A word of advice to anyone who has left an abusive person, watch out for the one year anniversary. If you haven't found anyone you love again at that point you feel vulnerable and likely to go back thinking it wasn't that bad. I have seen this happen to a lot of women.

Many smart women are fooled by mysogynists. They are not really interested in easy prey. Also they like being taken care of and look for women with ambition and/or good careers. I hated men for a few years and started loving women. I learned how to heal but still have a hard time letting people get close to me emotionally.

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 5:05 am

Thankfully I have never been physically abused. There are warning signs of the potential for abuse, that very young people (understandably) are unable to recognize. Psycological and emmotional abuse are very powerful tactics, and can cause a great deal of harm. Many women although not being physically injured are living in a kind of self imposed bondage.. For many complicated reasons they do not realize they can just walk out and be free. I have experienced the Emmotional and psycological. My self esteem is still floundering for recovery four years after my last breakup. I keep an article posted in the shop for the young women who work here. One of the red flags is being involved with a male who monitors your movement, or wants to control you, or discourages your involvement with friends, family, or activities you enjoy. The last wacko I lived with believed that women with other women for friends were all lesbians.

One of the biggest reasons to postpone a physical involvement.. is because ( as women know) once we are physically involved, and in LOVE with them.. we are unable to examine their actions critically. My narcissist ocassionally would put his hands on my throat and say " You know I could snap your neck, if I wanted to"

I thought he was being cute. Like Im so big , and your so small type thing? When he started popping up unexpectedly on my job sites, listening to phone calls, and hating every friend or co worker I had..... I knew things were getting out of hand.

Because evidence of this behavior never showed in the beginning, and escalated as the years went on... I seriously dont think I could really ever trust my judgement again. That is the saddest residue of the whole situation. Because I was a very opened and loving person for most of my life. He was a life long friend.

What a surprise! What a nightmare.oooo... very important.. He didnt use drugs, rearely had a drink.. Mr clean cut "good guy." He was a flaming narcisscist. The whole world revolves around him.

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 5:42 am

Ah.... Koan.. The moving away part. You are exactly correct. I left New York and went to live in a very rural area with him. That is when his REAL personality started to evolve. He suggested we live without a phone! I too am very ambitious. I started a landscaping business. It did very well. He lived off my income for 6 years. Eventually used thr refrence from my business ( which he hated) to land him a very good job. When I left him, he told aquaintances of mine that.. Oh , Her ? I got RID of her. And the paradox......... I was fine for a few months. So proud of myself for Getting Out. Until I heard that someone else had moved into our town house. I WANTED HIM BACK. MORE THAN ANYTHING. You think they are going to be different with someone else.. you think if I could relive it I could make it different. You get so ruined because you see telling someone you love them as an invitation for them to destroy you. The mind is such a fragile thing. And it seems that those of us who are very very strong find ourselves in these unbelievable situations... Why is that ? Listen to the dialogues . Very very smart intuative, outgoing, creative, personable females.. Who fall prey to these predators. WHY? I will never understand it.

greydeadhead · Post by **greydeadhead** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 6:51 am

First things first.. all of you are to be commended for getting thru these situations without losing your sanity. I am awed by the strength of character being exhibited.

Personally, any person that knowingly abuses another human being, especially a man that abuses a woman is not fit to be in society. Perhaps I am old-fashioned.. or old school but you are just not supposed to beat on the ladies in your life. I don't understand it. They must be genetically screwed up.. I have had a couple of lady friends... not girlfriends... that have had this problem.. helped a couple of them move out. One of them stayed at my house for about 6 months while she got put back together so to speak. He showed up one time.. he got warned.. and never returned.. sigh.. perhaps I am out of my league in this thread.. I have not experienced what you ladies have. I do know that this in some instances is a learned behaviour.. passed on usually from father to son.. then you add in the wonderful world of TV and movies.. sigh.. sick.. just plain freaking sick.. okay.. rant over..

koan · Post by **koan** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 7:06 am

Greydeadhead :-6

Thank you for your comments. I think it is very helpful to hear from men in this thread that are good people. It does seem sometimes to those of us with bad relationship histories that men can't be trusted and everytime we witness goodness in it men helps to break that illusion. It usually just takes time. There are a lot of good men in the world and the Forum has a number of good examples.

The biggest trust issue that I had to fight was trusting my own judgement again. I felt like I had failed myself and it was the beginning of two major improvements in my life. Learning to take responsibility for the bad things that happen to me and see my role in drawing them to my life and learning to forgive myself. Although it was not my "fault" that the things that happened to me took place, there was a part of me that felt like the object I was treated like and drew me into a relationship that mirrored that belief.

greydeadhead · Post by **greydeadhead** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 7:32 am

Thanks Koan.. I try.. but I can't pretend to see this issue from your side. I do feel that spousal abuse or partner abuse .. or whatever you want to call it is a learned behavior. I watched a couple I was friends with.. she eventually ended up leaving him but what was really incredible is that his parents were the same way.. his father just verbally abused the hell out of his mother.. and I could see it happening in their relationship.. dunno.. perhaps it that type cycle can be broken some of this could be stopped....

Peg · Post by **Peg** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 7:42 am

The thing that bothered me most is, I dated my ex for 3 1/2 years and in all that time, there were no warning signs. His alcoholism was a lot easier to hide when we were dating because he just took me home and went straight to the bar. The amazing thing is, I was the only one that ever stood up to his dad. The whole family feared him. Once I stood up to him, I think it gave him a whole new respect for me.

I think the one thing most men and women out there that are in an abusive relationship (whether it's physical and/or mental) need to know is THEY WILL NOT CHANGE. I thought he would kill me if I left. I now think he would have killed me if I stayed. By leaving, at least I had a chance at survival.

Paula · Post by **Paula** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 8:06 am

BabyRider wrote: ANYway...back at the ranch...

Let's drag this back to where it's meant to be. Anyone with some experience want to hop on in? Thanks to Peg and Ladycop for their input! :yh_peace

You have C-Dependency? and could be a domestic violence abuser yourself?

Erinna1112 · Post by **Erinna1112** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 8:44 am

Paula wrote: You have C-Dependency? and could be a domestic violence abuser yourself?
Whatever it is you're smoking, I bet it's illegal.

Where on EARTH do you get that BabyRider could be an abuser herself? I am in a position to know that you could not be farther from the truth. She's a survivor of abuse, not a perpetrator. You are basing your assumptions (and you know what they say about those) on absolutely zero information. That's not a good foundation for any kind of argument, especially not one where you're making character judgements about people.

samanthaguy · Post by **samanthaguy** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 9:43 am

I BELIEVE THAT ABUSE IS A LEARNED TRAIT AND IT CAN BE CORRECTED IF YOU WANT TO RAISE YOUR SPOUSE... MY HUSBAND WAS A VERBAL ABUSER AND I SPENT MOST OF OUR FIRST 5 YEARS CRYING. I HAVE ALSO BEEN IN A PHYSICALLY ABUSIVE SITUATION AND LET ME TELL YOU VERBAL HURTS JUST AS BAD.. UNLIKE THESE OTHER WOMEN I STUCK OUT THE VERBAL(NOT THE PHYSICAL) AND THINGS ARE GREAT NOW, WE HARDLY FIGHT ANYMORE BUT IT WAS HARD.............

A Karenina · Post by **A Karenina** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 9:51 am

I don't feel that my story is inspirational, but if it can possibly help someone else...then here it is.

When I was young, I met a wonderful man. We dated for some time, went through pre-marital counseling, had long long talks before I made that commitment, and then finally got married.

I didn't know much about marriage. My parents had been divorced several times over their lives. I still don't know much about it, really. But I was terrified that I would fail.

I became pregnant immediately. We have 3 children together. I was a stay at home mom, and I was glad about that. But, I was also controlled, isolated, and searingly lonely. I wanted to take some college courses, but the anger from my husband was so intense that I put off college. I threw myself into domestic pursuits, and he was very encouraging about this.

I tried leaving him 3 years into our marriage, but we decided to work it out. Frankly, I was terrified to try and support 3 children on my own with few job skills. At this point he hadn't hit me yet, but he did throw things around the house. It's important to note that he rarely did things like this around the children. To them, he was loving and patient. He would wait until they were safely in bed, and then release whatever steam he had from the day.

Basically, I martyred myself to my fears and to the security of my kids.

Time went on, and I tried to be a "good wife". I still don't really know what that is in a healthy relationship, but in my marriage it meant that anything beyond my husband and kids was forbidden. His demands increased, and I could never satisfy him. If dinner was on the table at 5:30, it should've been 5pm. If we made love for an hour, it should've been 2 hours. If I cleaned the house, I should've done the ironing as well.

It took me years to realize that he would never be happy with me. Why did it take so long? Because he and I both were very mixed up hurting people. We both loved each other, and that is what hurts me still today. Love was there - understanding, acceptance, and an ability to bring out the good in each other was not there.

The kids grew older, and I started a part-time job built around their schedules. I found that I was good at working. My bosses were awesome - challenging and supportive at the same time. It surprised me to find out that I was good at something. It helped me grow up. It also caused permanent damage to my already torn-up marriage.

I finally decided to take one college course at a time. I also banned my stepdaughter from my home (long long history there). I thought that would be the final straw, but it wasn't. We had no idea how to get out gracefuly. Instead we kept battling each other.

As I became more "uncontrollable" by working and going to school - the violence started. I hunted for assitance and support, but was reprimanded instead. I guess we should be careful who we go to when we're that confused.

After years of this, we had a situation escalate beyond us. A "friend" saw him hitting me, and was completely shocked. No one would ever think that my charming, handsome, attentive husband would ever hit me. (Anytime I alluded to problems, friends would get on my case about it, not believing me. You learn to shut up.) This friend was sleeping with my husband at the time (no, he was never faithful), so I think it affected her pretty badly.

My son John walked in on the tail end of the fight. My husband was trying to beat my head against the ceramic floor while I was trying to bring him to the floor with me so I could crush his neck with my legs (my legs are the strongest part of my body...no one *thinks* in these situations; you merely react, survive). My son stood there looking at us, and we became still, frozen. John grabbed the phone and asked if he should call the police. He was 13 at the time.

This was the breaking point for me. My kids were the one pure thing in my life, the thing I held most sacred. It about killed me to have him see what was happening. I don't know the pain and confusion that scene must've caused him. I do know that my husband and I placed a permanent scar on his heart in that moment.

And so, I left the marriage. He wanted to try counseling again. We did. The counselor told my husband that he did not see me as a human being, as a distinct person. He was obsessed by me (and I am not "obsession" material, I assure you). My husband was enraged, and stood over the counselor silently threatening. My husband was a large, well-muscled man...intimidating when angry. But the counselor just sat there compeltely relaxed, sprawled out in his chair and not moving a muscle. My husband yelled F*** You!! and stormed out.

That was a HUGE lesson. Be calm in the face of the threat. Back down and you're fighting from a corner. Stand up, and you may get some bruises, but you'll likely survive. So I learned to handle my husband the same way.

The next day, my husband knelt at my feet and cried his heart out. He was sorry - and I genuinely believe he was sorry. But he didn't have whatever it takes to change. We both knew it, and god how I ached. For him, for me...He cried in my arms forever. I was unable to cry at that time...the tears had dried up long ago. I could feel, but I could not express that feeling.

I think that moment defines our entire relationship. We did love each other, but his emotional problems surpassed his love for me. He thought I was wise, loving, and able to save him from himself. When he realized that I can't save anyone, he never forgave me for it. (This is a repetitive theme in my life and I'm trying to figure it all out).

So, shortly afterwards he moved in with one of his lovers. He didn't leave me alone though. I promised him I would move far away if he didn't stop. I guess he didn't believe me. I am not certain I would've done it alone...but I was having major physical problems because of the stress. My doctor said I could leave, I could die at my husband's hands, or I could die from stress in 2-3 years. My choice.

I packed up the kids and everything I could fit into a GEO Prism. We drove for 2 days straight due west, and landed in Portland, OR. When I think about how this has affected my kids, I die inside. So I (stupidly) try not to think of it.

My husband punished us. He tried to have me arrested for kidnapping, but that didn't work. He added his name to my credit cards and maxed them. He took cash from my bank account leaving us nothing to live on. I had always promised him that if I ever chose to leave, I'd live in a cardboard box before I came back...so prideful. That remained true, but it was killing me to see the kids do without.

I received a lot of help from the YWCA. The kids and I all received counseling from them, they gave us dinnerware, sleeping bags, etc. I got an apartment and a job within one week of arriving in Portland so we were okay there.

I worried about the effects on the kids. My daughter, 11 at the time, assured me that we had done community work for years...and now it was our turn to get help. I cried when she said that. Then we turned on music and danced around the front room to celebrate...We were together, we were safe, my kids were backing me, and I was able to cry, finally.

I wish that was the end of it. My husband talked with the kids every 2 or 3 days. I sent them back to visit at school holidays. We had 2 years to get a divorce according to Illinois state law...but he had more tricks up his sleeve. He could not release his spite, and he didn't care who he hurt. He had to destroy me - that became his purpose.

He and his lawyer testified to a judge that I had run off to parts unknown, yet they turned over my address. Still, the judge gave him a divorce - along with full custody of the children. I was not notified of any of it. I also inherited all of our debt, and I lost my half of his pension, the proceeds from the sale of our home, etc.

He didn't tell me a thing. Clueless, I went about trying to build a good life for us in Portland. Then he called me one day to let me know he had been diagnosed with terminal cancer. And he was getting married again.

I sent the kids back to be with him while he was sick. They didn't know he was dying, just that he was sick. They needed to be there, and I needed them to be emotionally healthy.

Winding this up, he continued to play games until he could no longer speak or see. The younger 2 kids promised him they would never live with me again, and they've kept that promise so far. (They are old enough under IL law to make this choice).

My oldest son came home, wanting no part of the games they were all playing. He is the one I always talk about. It's too painful to really discuss the other 2, but this is an unusual thread. They are doing well, and sound happy enough when they decide to call me.

As for me, I threw myself into work and school - the 2 things I know I am good at. I have a boyfriend, and have been with him for 6 years. It is part-time, he supports my goals, he has shared the pain of my children with me, and he doesn't pressure me. I've dated other men off and on throughout the years, but have not had great experiences. I decided that I need to be alone more, finish working through all of this stuff, and then see where I am.

My oldest son is proud of me. It is so healing to feel the love he pours on me, and how he supports my decision to divorce. It's hard now to see his guilt over being a rebellious teenager. He put us both through hell, and we both know it. I hug him and say that he did the best he could at the time. And I try try try to forgive and let go...but I'm not very good at it.

Still, we are building good lives, and moving on. To my shame, I have subtlely used our past as a means to keep him out of the military. He has wanted to go for some time...but he won't leave me alone unless I say it is ok. I have been selfish and so scared that I would lose him. How could I survive that, after so much loss already? I've been awful to him, and not supported him in this.

Yes, it's understandable - even he is agreeable and forgiving about it. But it's still wrong. So, recently I gave my blessing to it. The tarot reading Koan gave me was hugely comforting about this decision.

Yesterady he signed the papers and swore in. He called me afterwards and was so happy. I haven't heard that kind of joy in his voice since he was 13 years old - right before he was standing over me asking if he should call the police. He will be a field medic, and goes to boot camp in early September. We have 8 more months together, and I am so grateful for that.

Life goes on, whether we want it to or not. People say I am so strong, and it's ironic, because I don't feel strong. I don't blame men in general, although I have leaned a lot about dangerous people (and they come in both sexes). It's been 6 years since I packed up for Portland. It's hard to believe...

There were literally days when I didn't think I would make it through. I now have an understanding of suicide that I never had before. What good that is, I don't know. But I do know that a person can feel so much pain inside that bodily pain has no comparison, and there is no fear of harming yourself...only an intense need to get out of your own mind. The best advice I ever got during those times was that I only needed to survive the next 5 minutes...and for months, I lived life in 5-minute increments.

Today, I am glad I survived. I believe in my children, and I am beginning to find peace with it. There are moments that come along, radiating bursts of sunshine. My son's happiness is one. These are worth living for.

This is my story.

Erinna1112 · Post by **Erinna1112** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 9:54 am

samanthaguy wrote: I BELIEVE THAT ABUSE IS A LEARNED TRAIT AND IT CAN BE CORRECTED IF YOU WANT TO RAISE YOUR SPOUSE...
"Raise your spouse"??? You raise children. By the time someone gets to "spouse" status they should be raised.

A note to anyone contemplating marriage, to whomever: It astounds me how often someone finds "the one" and settles down, only to spend years trying to change that person. And then...lose interest, because the changed person is not "the one" anymore. Don't go into a marriage thinking that you can "fix" your intended.

There are four things you absolutely must agree on in order to have a statistical chance at making it. These are not my criteria; this is studied, clinical research. The four issues are: religion, in-laws, children, and money. If you are in agreement on those four things, you have a good shot at a good relationship.

persephone · Post by **persephone** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 9:57 am

samanthaguy wrote: I BELIEVE THAT ABUSE IS A LEARNED TRAIT AND IT CAN BE CORRECTED IF YOU WANT TO RAISE YOUR SPOUSE... MY HUSBAND WAS A VERBAL ABUSER AND I SPENT MOST OF OUR FIRST 5 YEARS CRYING. I HAVE ALSO BEEN IN A PHYSICALLY ABUSIVE SITUATION AND LET ME TELL YOU VERBAL HURTS JUST AS BAD.. UNLIKE THESE OTHER WOMEN I STUCK OUT THE VERBAL(NOT THE PHYSICAL) AND THINGS ARE GREAT NOW, WE HARDLY FIGHT ANYMORE BUT IT WAS HARD.............I know this is going to sound really bad and you can all have a go at me for it.

Samanthguy, is your story the reason why you shout so much, or are you a little hard of hearing?

samanthaguy · Post by **samanthaguy** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 10:06 am

When I Say Raise Your Spouse I Mean Have Enough Fight In You To Help Them Learn New Ways To Deal Otherthan The Way They Were Raised.. My Husbands Mother Was Married 5 Times And Every Man Beat Him And His 2 Brothers And Virbaly Abused Their Mom, At 16 He Was Sent To Live With His Grandparents, Their Grandpa Was Their Idol And He Virbaly Abused Their Grandmother... What I Mean By "raise" Was Stick It Out And Help, But It Is Very Hard. Im Not Blaming Them Completly But They Had A Hand In It Too.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 2:11 pm

Paula wrote: You have C-Dependency? and could be a domestic violence abuser yourself?
Paula, do not EVER refer to me as an abuser. I lived it for 5 years and the fact that you would post a message like this shows your lack of compassion, your lack of respect, and a total lack of simple HUMAN understanding.

I think this is the most repulsive thing I have ever read, including the vulgarity and small-mindedness in the teen forums.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 2:15 pm

To all the others posting here: I very much appreciate your input, and the stories you are sharing. On the small chance that even one person sees that they are not alone, it could be helpful.

And I am sorry that parts of it have degraded to the small-minded inane blatherings of someone clearly unsympathetic to any other human being.

Paula · Post by **Paula** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 2:16 pm

I would be focusing on the thread and not my comments? Not everything posted here is accurate, and who's to say i am correct, it doesn't matter? This is Emotional Forum Abuse to me? Very sorry if i ruined your day, no intentional harm here, SORRY! Oh my gOd!

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 2:52 pm

Once and for all.... What is with all of the question marks. Do you ever realize when you have really hurt someone??? Cant you just contribute something that makes sence to the topic? Or go and carry on under another title? How fortunate for you if youve never experienced the life experiences we are discussing here. We are trying to HELP each other. Get IT????????????????Do you have any female friends? do you have any friends?

Erinna1112 · Post by **Erinna1112** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 3:14 pm

Paula wrote: I would be focusing on the thread and not my comments? Not everything posted here is accurate, and who's to say i am correct, it doesn't matter? This is Emotional Forum Abuse to me? Very sorry if i ruined your day, no intentional harm here, SORRY! Oh my gOd!
If you don't want people to focus on your comments, don't post. What you said was hurtful, rude, inaccurate, incorrect, and WRONG. How can you think that accusing someone of being abusive could be interpreted as anything other than harmful? You have not a single clue - not one - about BabyRider and her situation. You should button it on subjects about which you know absolutely nothing.

Edited to remove language which would no doubt get me banned, but is nevertheless perfectly accurate.

abbey · Post by **abbey** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 3:46 pm

To all of you brave ladies i applaude you, a karenina you are wrong your story IS inspirational, ALL of the posts i have read are and each and every one of you are an inspiration to us all.

I am so happy that each one of you finally found the courage and strength to leave your abusers and move on with your lives, so many emotions have surged through me reading this thread and i have to tell you i have shed a few tears.

Thankyou B-rider for starting this thread.

Attached files

Der Wulf · Post by **Der Wulf** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 4:22 pm

It's clear that I don't really have anything substantive to add to the thread, but I'll jump in before our resident bully makes another pass.

After reading your various accounts of degredation and misery, I find myself so grateful. We've been married 43 yrs. with only 1 serious argument, and that does'nt even register on the scale of your collective experiances. We've been through tough times, including losing a son to drugs after we had exausted ourselves and our financial security trying to save him.

I've long realized that we were exceptional, and together we've tried to understand why. The only explanation seems to be that we've always acted as a unit, never discussed it, never had to. We are both extraordinally stubborn, but not selfish, both highly opinionated, often at odds, but we relished and enjoyed the "arguments" much like buddies not antagonists. We never discussed our "relationship", never had to. Neither of us could ever stand to see the other unhappy.

I guess the most significant aspect has been that we always respected each other.

I've read through the thread several times looking for a common trait or behavior, you all seem intelligent, rational, and at least at this point honest in your introspection. The one constant in all cases of abuse is the profesion of "love" by the abused, and the apparent bi-polar behavior of the abuser. My puzzlement is how can you have "love", without respect? Is there some kind of "Stockholm syndrome" involved, or on reflection, is "love" really an inappropriate term. :-3

Erinna1112 · Post by **Erinna1112** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 4:36 pm

Der Wulf wrote: My puzzlement is how can you have "love", without respect? Is there some kind of "Stockholm syndrome" involved, or on reflection, is "love" really an inappropriate term. :-3
There was no true love involved in any of these relationships, IMO. Love requires respect, of self first then the other. None of the perpetrators of this violence had either.

It's a psychological puzzle, to people who don't have the mindset, and very often to the ones who do after they break the cycle, as to how this can happen to anyone. The abuser is so believable...when he (generic again) professes to be sorry, and will never do it again, and reallyreallyreally loves the person he's abusing....it's easy to believe him. Mostly because the abuser wants to believe him. He has her so beaten down that she thinks that nobody else does, why not stay with this one who says he does?

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 4:49 pm

That is the key.. What is love? Since the abusive behavior never begins immediately..what is it that we fall in love with? And if it is such a shock for us to discover what the object of our affection is capable of... Did we know them well enough, or long enough to see? On the other hand... an honest, simple and pure man would be astounded at the tactics an abuser is capable of implementing to get us to love them. Our misfortune to have crosed paths with these sociopaths.

Our good fortune despite the pain weve endured to have had hearts opened enough that we werent even able to conjer up a perception of someone intentionally hurting us. Like kittens, or children. I will risk being presumptuous

and say .. That I believe that many of us were more creative and romantic minded

individuals. Opened minded, well read and strong enough to take on relationships that included difficulties from the begining.

persephone · Post by **persephone** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 4:56 pm

Sorry I don't agree, people don't always know that they are being emotionally abusive to others, and they really do love the other person. Even when the relationship breaks down and afterwards they never really understand what went so wrong.

They also still have the love for one another, just things have become so unbearable and broken that they can't fix it.

A Karenina · Post by **A Karenina** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 7:47 pm

Der Wulf wrote: I've read through the thread several times looking for a common trait or behavior, you all seem intelligent, rational, and at least at this point honest in your introspection. The one constant in all cases of abuse is the profesion of "love" by the abused, and the apparent bi-polar behavior of the abuser. My puzzlement is how can you have "love", without respect? Is there some kind of "Stockholm syndrome" involved, or on reflection, is "love" really an inappropriate term. :-3
Der Wulf, I'm sincerely happy that your marriage is a good one.

The "profession of love" that you mention is quite true in most cases.

The behavior is rarely bi-polar once you know the abuser.

You can have love and only tiny amounts of respect - there is no law that makes these two things equal.

Love is not an inappropriate term for these situations.

What the heck am I talking about now? (LOL). I'll try to explain briefly.

My husband did love me, and he loved his kids as much as he was capable of loving anyone. Did his love meet normal standards or my standards or yours? Probably not. But that fact doesn't remove love from the equation.

None of us have mentioned this, but I'd bet it's a common theme. The person who's being hurt tends to try loving enough for both people. It doesn't work, of course, but I know I tried it. How many others?

The abuse is cyclical. All is good, then things build up, the abuser is incapable of releasing it or unwilling to, depending on the person...and then it appears as if the abuser has gone off the deep end. But he hasn't. I knew damn well when I'd get hurt and when I wouldn't by the look on his face when he came home from work.

Bi-polar people are unable to control their impulses (from my limited understanding). Most abusers know exactly what they are doing, and can restore themselves to a calm demeanor in a heartbeat.

It's important to understand that it's not a lack of feeling on the abuser's part. It's too much feeling combined with an inability to trust feelings and to express feelings. So they do love, as best they can...which in no way means that any person should put up with it. But it does explain why so many of us stayed for so long.

My husband was a tragic case, not just because he died, but because he never really trusted living. He never had the strength to make good judgments and he never learned the skill of releasing anger appropriately. He was not all bad, nor was he all good.

Not sure if this is helping or making it worse....

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 7:58 pm

A Karenina wrote:

None of us have mentioned this, but I'd bet it's a common theme. The person who's being hurt tends to try loving enough for both people. It doesn't work, of course, but I know I tried it. How many others?

The abuse is cyclical. All is good, then things build up, the abuser is incapable of releasing it or unwilling to, depending on the person...and then it appears as if the abuser has gone off the deep end. But he hasn't. I knew damn well when I'd get hurt and when I wouldn't by the look on his face when he came home from work.

This is such a great point! I always knew too. That "look" that came over his face, you just KNEW you were in for it. I like the "appears as if he's gone off the deep end" part. Like you say, bi-polar disorder is uncontrollable, but these guys KNOW what they are doing. How else would they fool EVERYONE else? The people around us who are amazed, shocked, stunned when they learn what that "super-nice normal-seeming" guy is like.

koan · Post by **koan** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 10:27 pm

Paula.

You were warned.

You go way out of your league sometimes and, whether you think you are being funny or not, you come across as ignorant and pathetic. If you need attention so badly that you have to make fun of people and degrade them to get attention then you cannot possibly be as happy as you claim to be. How you live with yourself after some of the posts you've made is beyond me. What you intend to be and what you are perceived as are vastly different.

You are a weed in this garden. You have seasons. Sometimes you flower and look a little sweeter but you spread your roots underneath and try to choke all the other plants. Having a large number of posts does not make you intelligent or even popular. A weed to some is a flower to others. To me you are a weed. Just like the abusers we talk about, whenever the heat is on and you think you might suffer some consequence you try to butter everyone up. In this thread it is impossible to fool anyone. You are not wanted here. You are incapable of true compassion and that is what is required of readers in this thread. Save yourself from yourself and shut the f*** up.

I apologize for my vulgarity but nothing seems to get through to this woman sometimes.

Peg · Post by **Peg** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 10:33 pm

Well said koan. I just consider the source any more and move on. Some people have to constantly degrade others to make them feel better about themselves. It's a shame

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 4:51 am

I will say that regarding any males that have displayed the capacity for hurting to me..(in any form) that they were hurt themselves. I understood that, and so I had compassion for them, which made me stay longer. It probobly made me love them more because I wanted to make up to them for what they had suffered.It gets to the point though.. that despite the fact that you have figured out their psychological profile,youve got to get out, because you are being destroyed. Or your children are being destroyed. For me in all cases (there is more than one)

it has been abuse and or degregation by the fathers. But as adult males also

enabling by the mothers. The mothers were once in our position, they are trying to compansate the sons for abuse suffered by the dads. And their is the picture of a complete cycle continuing. My daughter in law.. married to my younger son

told me Christmas week. "Sometimes Brian talks mean to me" My heart broke in a million pieces. "FOR HER". When the three of us were together,(with her permission , of course.) I told him right in front of her. "If you love her, which I know you do.. why would you speak to her that way? Because Im telling you straight Brian.. no woman will stay with you long, and put up with it. She will leave

You will lose your family. I will encourage her to leave,as much as I dont want your family to break up. Youd better do some soul searching, go for counseling, or do whatever it is you need to do.. to put an end to this behavior NOW.The mothers of abusive men I knew all treated them like they were little gods. And thus enabled or sanctioned the behavior to continue. Cowardly women, who have lived to see their sons relationships, and families break up over and over again.I have as much disdain for these women, as I do for the abusers. .