Came across this and thought I'd share!

valerie · Post by **valerie** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 2:42 pm

OUTSIDE DOGS

By Dennis Fetko, Ph.D.

Reprinted from August 1995 issue of Whiskers & Wags, Halifax Humane Society Newsletter

I'm familiar with hundreds of dog breeds, but what's an outside dog? Unless you're medically intolerant of the dog (and therefore can't take care of him in a medical emergency, so you shouldn't have the dog anyway), making a dog stay outside is a costly waste.

If he's for protection, what do you think I want to steal - your lawn? When you leave, do you put your valuables and your kids out in your yard? Just what is the dog protecting out there? Most dogs kept outside cause far more nuisance complaints from barking and escaping than any deterrent to intrusion. Such complaints cause teasing, antagonism, release and poisoning. With your dog a helpless victim, it's no laughing matter.

If I'm a crook and your dog is out, your fence protects ME, not your possessions or your dog. If I just open the gate, 9 out of 10 dogs will run off! I can safely shoot, stab, spear, poison, snare, strangle them, or dart through the fence and you just lost your dog AND everything I steal!

If he's tied up and I keep out of reach, he's useless. He'll bark, but outside dogs bark so much, they're usually ignored. But let a dog hit the other side of a door or window I'm breaking into, and I'm GONE! I can't hurt the dog until he can hurt me, and nothing you own is worth my arm. Deterrence is effective protection. Protection and aggression are not the same. Protection is defensive, reactive, often passive, and threatens or injures no one. Aggression is active, harmful and offensive, threatens all and benefits none. Yard dogs often develop far more aggression than protectivity because everyone who passes by or enters has already violated the territory that dog has marked dozens of times a day for years. That's not protection, it's not desirable and it overlooks two facts of life today:

First, property owners have implied social contracts with others in the community. Letter carriers, paper boys, delivery people, law enforcement, emergency medical personnel, meter readers and others are allowed near and at times on your property without your specific permission. And sure that ten-year-old was not supposed to jump your fence after his Frisbee; but neither you nor your dog are allowed to cause him injury if he does. Imagine this:

A neighbor looks into your yard or window and sees you, your wife or child laying on the floor in a pool of blood. They call 9-1-1 and your dog prevents paramedics from assisting! Should they shoot your dog or just let you die?

Great choice.

Second, even if the intruder is a criminal, few places allow you or your dog to cause physical injury to prevent property loss. Convicted felons have sued the dog's owner from jail and won more in the suit than they ever could have stolen!

Appalling? True.

And don't be foolish enough to believe your homeowner's insurance will cover the loss. Now you see why many feel that an outside dog is a no-brainer. The more a dog is outdoors, the less behavioral control you have. It's easier to solve four or five indoor problems than one outdoor problem. The reason is valid and simple: The more you control the stimuli that reaches your dog, the more you control the responses. You've got a lot more control over your living room than you do over your entire county! When your dog is bored, but teased by every dog, cat, bird, squirrel, motorcycle, paperboy, airplane, firecracker and backfiring truck in the county, OF COURSE he'll dig, chew, and bark.

Would you sit still all day everyday? Do you want unnecessary medical and parasite fees, especially as the dog ages? When a dog is alone indoors, you are still 30% there because your scent and things he associates with you, constantly remind the dog of you and your training. When he's out, your dog is alone whether you're home or not. Do you really expect him to keep YOU in mind while the entire world teases, distracts and stimulates him?

The media is full of stories about the family dog saving everyone's life during a fire. How many people, including children, would be dead today if those dogs were kept outside? SURE - you ALWAYS get up to investigate every time your yard dog barks. And I've got this bridge...

An outdoor dog has an address, not a home. Dogs offer real value as companion animals. Stop behavior problems and start enjoying real protection and companionship. Bring your dogs inside.

Dennis Fetko, Ph.D.

This is about the BEST I've ever read on this subject!

:yh_clap

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 4:17 pm

Firstly, a dog should be housed in a kennel outside. This is the healthiest option for a canine. It is also the healthiest option for the humans, especially where children are involved.

Secondly, if properly trained with love and affection, and given a proper place in the 'human pack', an 'outside' dog will easily disable a man without incurring any damage to the incumbent. Neither will it run away because of its devotion and love for its 'pack'.

On the other hand, except in the most extreme cases, 'indoor' dogs will do anything to escape.

CARLA · Post by **CARLA** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 7:38 pm

Most dogs I know have the life of a king or queen.. they ain't running no where, except to the couch..!!

I couldn't keep a dog of mine outside in a kennel, would only use a kennel to transport to Vet if necessary.. Most dogs today are indoor family pets who think we humans are a part of their pack..:-3 Your right dogs are pack animals and territorial and those that live on ranches and farms stay outside for the most part, but city dogs can't they are indoor pets..and sleep right on the bed with you...!!

On the other hand, except in the most extreme cases, 'indoor' dogs will do anything to escape.

LilacDragon · Post by **LilacDragon** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 8:16 pm

OpenMind wrote: Firstly, a dog should be housed in a kennel outside. This is the healthiest option for a canine. It is also the healthiest option for the humans, especially where children are involved.

Secondly, if properly trained with love and affection, and given a proper place in the 'human pack', an 'outside' dog will easily disable a man without incurring any damage to the incumbent. Neither will it run away because of its devotion and love for its 'pack'.

On the other hand, except in the most extreme cases, 'indoor' dogs will do anything to escape.

Ok. I will grant you that I know a few people that I consider "responsible" dog owners that kennel their dogs. These dogs are kept in locked runs with proper houses and they are trained daily. They are also, the exception to the rule.

A majority of outside dogs (at least in my experience) are chained up somewhere in the far reaches of the backyard, avoided by the family because they can't get near the dog without getting knocked over, are fed when someone thinks about it and haven't seen a vet in years.

In a study of fatal dog attacks in the United States (Fatal Dog Attacks by Karen Delise) there were 7 common denominators in fatal dog attacks from 1965 - 2001. The number one common denominator was that the dog was chained.

valerie · Post by **valerie** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 9:23 pm

OpenMind wrote: Firstly, a dog should be housed in a kennel outside. This is the healthiest option for a canine. It is also the healthiest option for the humans, especially where children are involved.

Secondly, if properly trained with love and affection, and given a proper place in the 'human pack', an 'outside' dog will easily disable a man without incurring any damage to the incumbent. Neither will it run away because of its devotion and love for its 'pack'.

On the other hand, except in the most extreme cases, 'indoor' dogs will do anything to escape.

I don't know what you've been smokin' but PLEASE, anyone who reads

the above post, disregard it ENTIRELY, as it's so far off the mark as to

be LAUGHABLE.

Open Mind, indeed...

nvalleyvee · Post by **nvalleyvee** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 10:49 pm

My dog's job is to run the fence line and come in the nice warm house at night. She's a barking fool. That is why I give her cow hip bones. The Kayla is very cool.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Sat Dec 17, 2005 4:36 am

OpenMind wrote: Firstly, a dog should be housed in a kennel outside. This is the healthiest option for a canine. It is also the healthiest option for the humans, especially where children are involved.

Secondly, if properly trained with love and affection, and given a proper place in the 'human pack', an 'outside' dog will easily disable a man without incurring any damage to the incumbent. Neither will it run away because of its devotion and love for its 'pack'.

On the other hand, except in the most extreme cases, 'indoor' dogs will do anything to escape.
Firstly, this is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read. Where did you get ideas like this??

As a part of a pack, human or otherwise, no member of that pack should be kept separated like this. "Outside" dog is just a term used by lazy people who don't have the time, devotion, or motivation to put into a pet. A pet is a member of your family, not a tool. There are very few exceptions to this. Please, as Valerie said, completely DISREGARD this load of crap.

If you don't know what you're talking about, it would be helpful to clarify that you're stating an opinion. It saves those of us who actually do know what we're talking the trouble of having to refute you.

valerie · Post by **valerie** » Sat Dec 17, 2005 10:30 am

nvalleyvee wrote: My dog's job is to run the fence line and come in the nice warm house at night. She's a barking fool. That is why I give her cow hip bones. The Kayla is very cool.

Ah yes, running the fence line and barking. Classic bored, neglected dog

behaviour.

Let's see, this would be the same 11 year old you wanted to ban from

the house for stealing chicken? The same one you wanted to KICK for

barking at night?

Too bad there's no way to rescue the poor old girl so she could be

adopted out into a LOVING family.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Sat Dec 17, 2005 3:07 pm

BabyRider wrote: Firstly, this is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read. Where did you get ideas like this??

As a part of a pack, human or otherwise, no member of that pack should be kept separated like this. "Outside" dog is just a term used by lazy people who don't have the time, devotion, or motivation to put into a pet. A pet is a member of your family, not a tool. There are very few exceptions to this. Please, as Valerie said, completely DISREGARD this load of crap.

If you don't know what you're talking about, it would be helpful to clarify that you're stating an opinion. It saves those of us who actually do know what we're talking the trouble of having to refute you.

I stand by what I say. A dog kept in a kennel is healthier than a dog kept indoors. Anyone that does not care enough for a dog should not have one. A kennel needs to be cleaned daily. Likewise, the dog should be exercised daily.

If it has a mate, it will not feel secluded. If it is loved and cared for properly, it will not feel secluded.

Of course, if left to its own devices, and not fed, trained, or exercised properly, any dog will turn aggressive. This applies to both 'indoor' and 'outdoor' dogs. However, 'outdoor' dogs, having had the benefit of being outside will be fitter and more aggressive.

Now, maybe I am voicing an opinion. Isn't this the purpose of this forum? And I have no problem with disagreements. But if you're going to slag me off and make personal comments against me, then show me your qualifications.

LilacDragon · Post by **LilacDragon** » Sat Dec 17, 2005 8:30 pm

OpenMind wrote: I stand by what I say. A dog kept in a kennel is healthier than a dog kept indoors. Anyone that does not care enough for a dog should not have one. A kennel needs to be cleaned daily. Likewise, the dog should be exercised daily.

If it has a mate, it will not feel secluded. If it is loved and cared for properly, it will not feel secluded.

Of course, if left to its own devices, and not fed, trained, or exercised properly, any dog will turn aggressive. This applies to both 'indoor' and 'outdoor' dogs. However, 'outdoor' dogs, having had the benefit of being outside will be fitter and more aggressive.

Now, maybe I am voicing an opinion. Isn't this the purpose of this forum? And I have no problem with disagreements. But if you're going to slag me off and make personal comments against me, then show me your qualifications.

Well, this may just be a cultural difference then. I can promise you that almost without exception every single "outdoor" dog that I have personally known was far from healthy, rarely socialized or trained and sometimes hardly ever fed.

For example, before I moved into this apartment, my neighbors had a lovely border collie boy. He probably had his puppy shots, but I can promise you that the dog never made it to the vet again. His outdoor life consisted of a 10 foot chain, no shelter, and no dishes. He could often be seen (from my kitchen window) licking rain and dew off the family cars to get moisture. Since no attention was paid to him and the only place to chain him was to the front door, any time the family needed to get in or out of the house, the dog was routinely hit or kicked so that they could get passed him. He spent the Christmas holiday before last at animal control because after watching him sit outside for 4 hours in a freezing rain - I called animal control and they came and collected him up. You can imagine my shock when the dog was back the day after New Years! After that he spent a majority of his time in a travel crate in the house because he chased the cat and wasn't housebroken. ( I know because I asked the young owner when I gave her a ride home from the bus stop one afternoon.)

Oh - and the 2 dogs that they owned before that - when we moved in they had a sheltie mix that in 8 months I never saw enter the house. It was fed and watered by the neighborhood kids and managed to squeeze through a small hole to sleep under the porch in inclement weather. It died after it licked anti-freeze off the driveway. The next dog was a beagle mix that disappeared when they left it chained in the driveway with no food or water dishes (let alone food or water) while they went on a week long vacation. (I hear the dog found a fabulous home in another state.) They had that dog for about a year and it never went in the house either.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 2:43 am

LilacDragon wrote: Well, this may just be a cultural difference then. I can promise you that almost without exception every single "outdoor" dog that I have personally known was far from healthy, rarely socialized or trained and sometimes hardly ever fed.

For example, before I moved into this apartment, my neighbors had a lovely border collie boy. He probably had his puppy shots, but I can promise you that the dog never made it to the vet again. His outdoor life consisted of a 10 foot chain, no shelter, and no dishes. He could often be seen (from my kitchen window) licking rain and dew off the family cars to get moisture. Since no attention was paid to him and the only place to chain him was to the front door, any time the family needed to get in or out of the house, the dog was routinely hit or kicked so that they could get passed him. He spent the Christmas holiday before last at animal control because after watching him sit outside for 4 hours in a freezing rain - I called animal control and they came and collected him up. You can imagine my shock when the dog was back the day after New Years! After that he spent a majority of his time in a travel crate in the house because he chased the cat and wasn't housebroken. ( I know because I asked the young owner when I gave her a ride home from the bus stop one afternoon.)

Oh - and the 2 dogs that they owned before that - when we moved in they had a sheltie mix that in 8 months I never saw enter the house. It was fed and watered by the neighborhood kids and managed to squeeze through a small hole to sleep under the porch in inclement weather. It died after it licked anti-freeze off the driveway. The next dog was a beagle mix that disappeared when they left it chained in the driveway with no food or water dishes (let alone food or water) while they went on a week long vacation. (I hear the dog found a fabulous home in another state.) They had that dog for about a year and it never went in the house either.

These are heart-rending examples of gross mistreatment. I never advocate this type of treatment. And, unfortunately, the same thing goes on over here in the UK.

The majority of people I know keep their dogs indoors. I don't get on a soapbox about it. My information came from a professional police dog trainer and handler. He is now long dead but he even made sure the dogs never accepted food from anyone but himself. His dogs wouldn't even take food from his family. Police dogs cannot be allowed to become aggressive. Even the commands used to bring down a crook have to be non-violent.

The important point I was trying to make is that dogs are healthier if kept outside. Naturally, they still need to be treated with love and respect. They still need good nourishment and plenty of exercise. But I do know a couple of people that keep their dogs outside. The dogs are allowed in the house, but don't stay in for long and prefer to be outside. They are healthy and well looked after and are extremely happy animals without a streak of aggression in their souls.

Dogs are the most rewarding of pets. It is so gut-wrenching to see an ill-treated dog.

I personally won't keep a dog. At the moment, I can't anyway as my landlord won't allow it. Even so, I don't have the time to train a dog, and I would need at least two so they had company when I was at work. But, as I sometimes have to work away, I simply cannot entertain the idea of keeping dogs.

LilacDragon · Post by **LilacDragon** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 7:06 am

OpenMind wrote: These are heart-rending examples of gross mistreatment. I never advocate this type of treatment. And, unfortunately, the same thing goes on over here in the UK.

The majority of people I know keep their dogs indoors. I don't get on a soapbox about it. My information came from a professional police dog trainer and handler. He is now long dead but he even made sure the dogs never accepted food from anyone but himself. His dogs wouldn't even take food from his family. Police dogs cannot be allowed to become aggressive. Even the commands used to bring down a crook have to be non-violent.

The important point I was trying to make is that dogs are healthier if kept outside. Naturally, they still need to be treated with love and respect. They still need good nourishment and plenty of exercise. But I do know a couple of people that keep their dogs outside. The dogs are allowed in the house, but don't stay in for long and prefer to be outside. They are healthy and well looked after and are extremely happy animals without a streak of aggression in their souls.

Dogs are the most rewarding of pets. It is so gut-wrenching to see an ill-treated dog.

I personally won't keep a dog. At the moment, I can't anyway as my landlord won't allow it. Even so, I don't have the time to train a dog, and I would need at least two so they had company when I was at work. But, as I sometimes have to work away, I simply cannot entertain the idea of keeping dogs.

Well, no disrespect to your friend, but since a majority of outdoor dogs are more often then not kept in conditions in which I described above, it really isn't healthier for the dog. A dog kept inside with the family is more apt to have illnesses noticed and receive medical care then a dog kept outside. Not to mention groomed, exercised and trained. Therefore, I must agree to disagree with you.

Personally, I would never keep a dog outside. There are too many variables that I can't control and wouldn't want my dog to be victimized.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 3:12 pm

LilacDragon wrote: Well, no disrespect to your friend, but since a majority of outdoor dogs are more often then not kept in conditions in which I described above, it really isn't healthier for the dog. A dog kept inside with the family is more apt to have illnesses noticed and receive medical care then a dog kept outside. Not to mention groomed, exercised and trained. Therefore, I must agree to disagree with you.

Personally, I would never keep a dog outside. There are too many variables that I can't control and wouldn't want my dog to be victimized.

It all depends on the - owner? - nay, the person given the privilege of looking after the dog. Let's take the average farm animal. Without a farmer to look after it, it would never survive of it's own back. A dog can. A dog does not need an owner to survive. But the majority of farm animals do.

This does not mean that a dog can survive entirely in the wild. But it can learn to scavenge. This is the basic nature of the dog. It is a scavenger. It's main problem would be becoming accepted by a pack.

On the other hand, cows and sheep are dependent on man to look after them. So, do we keep them inside. Of course not. But why is that? Basically, it's because they're not intelligent enough to learn sufficient commands. Having said that, all animals respond to love. But what child wouldn't love to have a herd of animals in their bedroom. Jeez, what do all the stuffed animals represent?!

Nonetheless, these animals, essentially pack animals of a different kind, need more attention than a dog does. The fact that they are part of our economy does not detract from the fact that they need to be looked after, properly nourished, and exercised.

If you kept a single cow for milk, believe me, that cow would become so attached to you, it would follow you into your house. Are you willing to keep a cow in your house? If not, why not. They are adorable animals. They might not be able to perform tricks on command, but they'll nuzzle your neck 'cos they love you.

Irrespective of whether it's good for them or not, the majority of people would not tolerate a cow in the house. And, when it comes to dogs, most people have their own interests in mind rather than the dog's. And this is the important thing.

We're not that good at looking after our own selves in health terms, let alone a dog's.

But those that have grown up in the country or have been reared on farms know the benefit of fresh air. They know the meaning of the biblical commandment to go forth and multiply because it takes many hands to make a countryside work for you. No animal is ever by itself in the country.

Fortunately, there are more people that care about animals than there are people that wilfully neglect their charges.

booradley · Post by **booradley** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 3:27 pm

SnoozeControl wrote: On the opposite side of things (sort of) I feel kitties should be kept indoors. I was just talking about this at work, and several people disagreed with me, saying they thought that if they were a cat, they'd want to be running around outside. Well, duh! That's just dandy in a perfect world, but lets not forget all the traffic, sadists, freezing temperatures, chemicals/insecticides, etc they can encounter.

Great article Val, thanks for posting that.

that goes against their nature, you can never domesticate a cat.

nvalleyvee · Post by **nvalleyvee** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 3:30 pm

valerie wrote: Ah yes, running the fence line and barking. Classic bored, neglected dog

behaviour.

Let's see, this would be the same 11 year old you wanted to ban from

the house for stealing chicken? The same one you wanted to KICK for

barking at night?

Too bad there's no way to rescue the poor old girl so she could be

adopted out into a LOVING family.

EXCUUUUSE me. I had to think about the hostility of your post before I answered. My dog is 11 years old and has to be outside when I go to work...........she is ALWAYS in at night and has her own special chair to sleep upon. She stole that chicken from a neighbor when I first moved in this house and I paid that neighbor for the chicken and then shored up my fence line. - she's a bird dog. Yes I wanted to kick her butt for barking at night - she was taught not to bark unless there is an intruder but again she was not used to the noises of the neighborhood - meaning anyone close to our yard.

PS - I never kicked any animal in my life.

booradley · Post by **booradley** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 3:47 pm

it must depend on the breed up to a point. My next door neighbours have got a Japanese Akita...gorgeous girl she is..but she's not cut out for life in a warm house. She itches and her coat falls out. So she sleeps and spends most of her time outside. She gets walked three times a day and she can go in and out of the house as she wishes.

she doesn't chase birds but she does chase the squirrels and she tries to round all the local kids up.

nvalleyvee · Post by **nvalleyvee** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 4:01 pm

booradley wrote: it must depend on the breed up to a point. My next door neighbours have got a Japanese Akita...gorgeous girl she is..but she's not cut out for life in a warm house. She itches and her coat falls out. So she sleeps and spends most of her time outside. She gets walked three times a day and she can go in and out of the house as she wishes.

she doesn't chase birds but she does chase the squirrels and she tries to round all the local kids up.

My wooby sheds her undercoat 3 times a year.......she's shedding now and it's 10 degrees in the mornings. She does not want to be inside. Does your neighbor have my dog's twin? In fact we can't get her to come inside. BTW - here is a picture of my abused dog chewing on one of her bones.

Attached files

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 4:53 pm

BTW - here is a picture of my abused dog chewing on one of her bones.

That's a very healthy looking dog. My compliments to you NV.

it must depend on the breed up to a point.

Booradley, you are quite right, and this pulls me up on my toes. Lap dogs and toy dogs are bred purely for indoor living. All other dogs are bred for outdoor pursuits. The akita you mention in your post is similar to the alsation, or german shepherd if you prefer, but stockier. Both are excellent family dogs that are easily trained. They are not to be underrated in terms of their ability to fight. I once had an alsatian and have watched it fend of both an Irish Wolfhound and a Red Setter at the same time. Two dogs that were not under the proper control of their owner.

I took Shane, my alsatian, for a regular walk. On this occasion, it was a late autumn afternoon and we were strolling amiably along a lane. Ahead of us was a man with the aforementioned dogs walking towards us. I could see that he didn't have full control of them. As they came close, I stopped and ordered Shane to sit. However, both dogs went for Shane, so I released him from my hold so that he could defend himself.

The owner of the other dogs only pulled them off when he realised that my dog had the situation under control. He said "Sorry" to me and I told him to otherwise extract sexual pleasure with himself in not so many words.

In another situation, I proved my worth to my dog in a situation where he was startled by a fully togged walker. The area we were in was rampant for drugs.

We were in a square and I was getting money out of a cash machine. Shane was loose and strolling along the wall towards the end of the wall when a guy suddenly appeared walking stridently into the square. Shane barked and the guy, taken by surprise, kicked at Shane.

I called Shane under control, and confronted the guy. Shane sat beside me without any call from me and watched. It turned into a staring match. The guy then took a swing with his knapsack which I easily dodged. And I continued to stare him out. The guy turned and left. Shane never budged. He just sat beside me. I stood my ground and the other guy went. Funny, but Shane's presence gave me an animal instinct.

When we carried on walking back, Shane ambled to my side, tongue out, happy, as dogs are. Everything was normal. All I'd done was stand my ground. There were no fisticuffs, as was the case when Shane had to defend himself, just the Alpha Meyo ritual. We went home happy as though nothing had happened.

valerie · Post by **valerie** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 5:21 pm

nvalleyvee wrote: EXCUUUUSE me. I had to think about the hostility of your post before I answered. My dog is 11 years old and has to be outside when I go to work...........she is ALWAYS in at night and has her own special chair to sleep upon. She stole that chicken from a neighbor when I first moved in this house and I paid that neighbor for the chicken and then shored up my fence line. - she's a bird dog. Yes I wanted to kick her butt for barking at night - she was taught not to bark unless there is an intruder but again she was not used to the noises of the neighborhood - meaning anyone close to our yard.

PS - I never kicked any animal in my life.

I wasn't talking about stealing chicken from a neighbor... gee, shall I

bump the thread for you? Wherein you wanted to ban her from the

house for getting your chicken off the dining room table?

Hostility doesn't enter into it... I only posted what YOU YOURSELF

expressed as regards YOUR dog.

She's always in at night unless you forget and leave her out.

I repeat, people, leaving a dog outside is NOT healthy for the dog in

any way, shape, or form. Barking, fence line running dogs invite irate

neighbors who throw poisoned food over the fence... at worst.

OR fly strike, fleas, parasites, lung conditions... shall I go on? Poor

coat condition, agressiveness... let's see... there's much more.

Dogs are supposed to be with their pack. Or in the "den"... yes, even

when the "pack" goes off to "hunt"... Will work for food? Something like

that.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 5:28 pm

valerie wrote: I wasn't talking about stealing chicken from a neighbor... gee, shall I

bump the thread for you? Wherein you wanted to ban her from the

house for getting your chicken off the dining room table?

Hostility doesn't enter into it... I only posted what YOU YOURSELF

expressed as regards YOUR dog.

She's always in at night unless you forget and leave her out.

I repeat, people, leaving a dog outside is NOT healthy for the dog in

any way, shape, or form. Barking, fence line running dogs invite irate

neighbors who throw poisoned food over the fence... at worst.

OR fly strike, fleas, parasites, lung conditions... shall I go on? Poor

coat condition, agressiveness... let's see... there's much more.

Dogs are supposed to be with their pack. Or in the "den"... yes, even

when the "pack" goes off to "hunt"... Will work for food? Something like

that.

Valerie, did you read the posts in between?

The Red One · Post by **The Red One** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 6:10 pm

valerie wrote: I wasn't talking about stealing chicken from a neighbor... gee, shall I

bump the thread for you? Wherein you wanted to ban her from the

house for getting your chicken off the dining room table?

Hostility doesn't enter into it... I only posted what YOU YOURSELF

expressed as regards YOUR dog.

She's always in at night unless you forget and leave her out.

I repeat, people, leaving a dog outside is NOT healthy for the dog in

any way, shape, or form. Barking, fence line running dogs invite irate

neighbors who throw poisoned food over the fence... at worst.

OR fly strike, fleas, parasites, lung conditions... shall I go on? Poor

coat condition, agressiveness... let's see... there's much more.

Dogs are supposed to be with their pack. Or in the "den"... yes, even

when the "pack" goes off to "hunt"... Will work for food? Something like

that.

I'm lucky. The only neighbors I have are three yards over and are hardly ever home.

I have an outside dog and he's fed twice a day, water is dumped away from his area and given fresh water, he' also played with daily. His coat is in excellent condition, and according to the vet in excellent health. He gets the shots he is supposed to have too. My dog only barks at cats and strangers. If someone goes, or comes, into our backyard without one of us and we don't know they are there, we do shortly. I bought our dog when he was about four months old and he's been raised with my children, if he hears one of them crying he's right next to them making sure they are fine. If they don't quit crying he will bark until my husband or myself get to him (the child). They can also squat on, but not completely sit on him, their bottoms are barely touching him, and using their knees bounce and say gitty up horsey and my dog will look at them and lay back down. I get out there and play with him too. We take over each others spot with our heads, when he gets tired of playing that way he'll just lay his head on mine. When my dog is barking like crazy at a cat, and once I find out for sure that's all it is, I'll tell him to be quiet and he quits barking, he also sits and lays down when told. Our dog is a part of the family and my youngest son will argue till he's blue in the face with anyone that says different. My dog also has a dog house that is facing away from the wind and rain, he has protection from the storms and seasons. And he's what people consider a bad breed, he's pit.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 6:14 pm

The Red One wrote: I'm lucky. The only neighbors I have are three yards over and are hardly ever home.

I have an outside dog and he's fed twice a day, water is dumped away from his area and given fresh water, he' also played with daily. His coat is in excellent condition, and according to the vet in excellent health. He gets the shots he is supposed to have too. My dog only barks at cats and strangers. If someone goes, or comes, into our backyard without one of us and we don't know they are there, we do shortly. I bought our dog when he was about four months old and he's been raised with my children, if he hears one of them crying he's right next to them making sure they are fine. If they don't quit crying he will bark until my husband or myself get to him (the child). They can also squat on, but not completely sit on him, their bottoms are barely touching him, and using their knees bounce and say gitty up horsey and my dog will look at them and lay back down. I get out there and play with him too. We take over each others spot with our heads, when he gets tired of playing that way he'll just lay his head on mine. When my dog is barking like crazy at a cat, and once I find out for sure that's all it is, I'll tell him to be quiet and he quits barking, he also sits and lays down when told. Our dog is a part of the family and my youngest son will argue till he's blue in the face with anyone that says different. My dog also has a dog house that is facing away from the wind and rain, he has protection from the storms and seasons. And he's what people consider a bad breed, he's pit.

Tears in my eyes. I love dogs. Wish I could have one.:-4

nvalleyvee · Post by **nvalleyvee** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 6:43 pm

I have a dog I have loved for over 11 years.........Missy Kayla is treated lovingly........as she is supposed to be treated as a dog (not as a human in child care)...........She is gettting old and is treated with much more respect.........she has done her job and she is happier in this family than a poor dog cooped up in a house.

BTS · Post by **BTS** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 6:48 pm

Yes NV...... An abused dog.......... What we gonna do with a Rascally Ameican like you???

You should be ashamed. We need ta find a lovin family for that POOR dog............ KUZZZ i know this from afar............

SHAME SHAME......

Attached files

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 7:07 pm

BTS wrote: Yes NV...... An abused dog.......... What we gonna do with a Rascally Ameican like you???

You should be ashamed. We need ta find a lovin family for that POOR dog............ KUZZZ i know this from afar............

SHAME SHAME......Unhand that mongrel, you ... mongrel!

I've grown up with inside dogs and outside dogs all my life. It's only abuse when you take a chihuahua to Minnisota or a husky to Florida & make them stay outside.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 7:13 pm

There's nothing like a good hearted soft furry canine slavering over you to remind you that the party is over.

nvalleyvee · Post by **nvalleyvee** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 7:23 pm

:yh_rotfl :yh_rotfl

valerie · Post by **valerie** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:24 pm

Alright, I'm going to try and respond to all of you, and hope you try to

understand.

I now have 53 years of experience with dogs. Anything and EVERYTHING

I say or do is only geared to help them. I grew up on a 120 acre ranch,

and back then my parents kept dogs outside. My thinking is that when

you know better, you do better. And I know better, and I try to impart

knowledge, for the dogs' sakes.

Open Mind, I did read your posts. You originally quoted Baby Rider, and

I was going to let her deal with that. Is there anyone here who thinks

she can't take care of herself? Alright then.

I have experience with many breeds. I have some experience with K-9's.

I have raised and milked cows and goats. I have fallen in love with some

of them. Try having a hand-raised calf that you've named Sir Loin and

painted his name on the door to his shed... go off to slaughter. I do

know what I'm talking about in all these areas.

Open Mind, that you know you shouldn't have a dog right now is

commendable. I'm glad to hear you say that. BUT some of the other

things I hear you saying I can't let go. You talk about scavenging

dogs, when dogs are really genetically killers, not scavengers. Take

a look at some websites that show starving animals who have been

tossed out the door of a car in the country to "scavenge". Cattle

probably WOULD do better, given open space with grass and a water

source.

Most, if not all, of the police K-9's I've known or known of live INSIDE

with their officer's families. And as for the non-violent commands,

you can teach a dog to do his job on the command "Cabbage" if you

so choose.

BooRadley, a dog with itchy shedding coat is quite likely on a poor

diet and/or has allergies.

Red One, there's quite a lot of my posts around the Garden where

I've championed the "pit bull" and I know it's not an inherently "bad"

breed... you sound like you and your family love yours but I still

cannot condone keeping it outside.

And finally, to NValleyVee and BTS, where do I start? NValleyVee, you

say you would never kick her, okay, but you have to realize when you

post something like that how it reads, especially to a newbie or a

lurker perhaps who might come across it. And you DID get pretty hot

when she took your chicken. You were going to banish an 11 year

old dog to the outside for something that was your fault or BTS's fault.

I'm not making any of that up. It gives a poor impression.

I did not use the word "abused", you guys did, I believe I said bored

and neglected. Again, I stand by that.

BTS, that WAS a wonderful picture of a girl pup with her daddy, I'm

glad to see it. But just because I saw it doesn't mean I can keel

over and say something I don't believe, that she's not bored and

neglected.

Lilac Dragon seems to know what she's talking about. I know for

sure Baby Rider does. And my original post was from someone with

a PHD, if you won't take my 53 years experience, Lilac Dragon's,

and Baby Rider's.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:56 pm

Try having a hand-raised calf that you've named Sir Loin and

painted his name on the door to his shed... go off to slaughter.

That's all I need to hear. I don't profess to be an expert on anything, and those that believe that I am an expert are fools. I am simply human.

The hardest thing to do, in life, is to take care of the most wonderful loving creature for years only to kill it for food. There was a time when that was no problem for me. Unfortunately, my outlook has changed, and I CAN NO LONGER KILL any creature without good reason.

Despite this, I still retain friends in the farming community. One good friend of mine runs a smallholding in Cornwall near Bude, has five various breeded dogs, all of whom have the choice except for the bedrooms. They prefer the outdoors

Any way, less of this ramble of mine, lets go to bed. Yup, all of us together. Sounds respectable to me. Ho hum.

Me, I'm always ready for a party. But people take so long, I get pissed and fall dead before the party starts.

Some argue that I'm dead in the first place. All I can say is take that to your bitch.

LilacDragon · Post by **LilacDragon** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 10:30 pm

Thanks Val, but you have more experience then I do and I sure do look forward to learning from you.

I got my first dog when I was twelve. That was 29 years and 11 months ago.

My mom raised show dogs and when I was 14, her pom was one of the top scoring obedience poms in the country. I don't show and I haven't had time to train any to compete in the ring, but I do deal with my dogs every day. I also belong to a wonderful online rottweiler group that has taught me tons about behaviour, training, and nutrition.

I have volunteered time at a animal shelter and held kittens being put to sleep. I also spend most of my free time in the spring planning and organizing an annual rottweiler rescue fundraiser.

Open Mind - I understand what you are saying but from everything I have ever seen outside dogs tend to be neglected. This is not to say that ALL outside dogs are, just most.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 4:58 am

OpenMind wrote: [...]

The hardest thing to do, in life, is to take care of the most wonderful loving creature for years only to kill it for food. There was a time when that was no problem for me. Unfortunately, my outlook has changed, and I CAN NO LONGER KILL any creature without good reason.

[...]Killing an animal for food is good reason. I spent my early childhood in the country. When we slaughtered a cow we would spend mealtime talking about what a good cow ol' Star (or whatever) was. I remember the older kids talking about various 4H shows they took her to, etc. Life & death are very closely related on a farm.

Sorry about getting off the point.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 6:18 pm

I wasn't sure whether to bump this thread or not. It seems to be one of those touchy subjects that just gets way out of control. For some reason, people do NOT like to be told when they are wrong about their pets.

OpenMind, my experience comes from reading everything I could get my hands on about dogs since I was old enough to read, and then spending over 5 years working in animal medicine and behavior. I've seen every type of abuse, neglect and horrible treatment of every kind of family pet you can imagine and a lot that you can't.

As I have said, will continue to say and know to be true, a dog is NOT healthier OR happier being kept outside. You think what you want, all I can say when I read that you can't own a dog is, "Whew!!" :yh_sweat

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 11:24 am

BabyRider wrote: I wasn't sure whether to bump this thread or not. It seems to be one of those touchy subjects that just gets way out of control. For some reason, people do NOT like to be told when they are wrong about their pets.

OpenMind, my experience comes from reading everything I could get my hands on about dogs since I was old enough to read, and then spending over 5 years working in animal medicine and behavior. I've seen every type of abuse, neglect and horrible treatment of every kind of family pet you can imagine and a lot that you can't.

As I have said, will continue to say and know to be true, a dog is NOT healthier OR happier being kept outside. You think what you want, all I can say when I read that you can't own a dog is, "Whew!!" :yh_sweat

We will have to beg to differ then. Since you are the professional, I decline to your professional view. Notwithstanding, it seems that I am not entirely alone in my views. But I'll leave it there.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:00 am

OpenMind wrote: We will have to beg to differ then. Since you are the professional, I decline to your professional view. Notwithstanding, it seems that I am not entirely alone in my views. But I'll leave it there.
You may very well not be alone in your views, that doesn't make them OR you correct. I cannot be emphatic enough on this subject and just "leave it there" because I have seen far too many uneducated, misinformed people treating dogs in ways they should not be treated.

Flat out, cut and dry, plain and simple English:

IT IS CRUEL TO KEEP YOUR DOG HOUSED OUTSIDE, SEPARATED FROM THE FAMILY IT BELONGS WITH.

Period, end of sentence, next paragraph.

The Red One · Post by **The Red One** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:19 am

Since this thread is about dogs click this link, I thought it was sweet.

http://www.jacquielawson.com/viewcard.a ... 0212320003

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:38 am

The Red One wrote: Since this thread is about dogs click this link, I thought it was sweet.

http://www.jacquielawson.com/viewcard.a ... 0212320003
What a nice way to cool off this thread. Thanks Red!

The Red One · Post by **The Red One** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:45 am

You're welcome.....