Rioting in France

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Mon Nov 07, 2005 12:04 pm

this is the 11th day of rioting and unrest in France, and the government does not seem to be able to get a grip or gain control of the situation. it is spreading like wildfire....why are the French authorities seemingly so ineffectual?? French riots claim first fatality

Tombstone · Post by **Tombstone** » Mon Nov 07, 2005 12:22 pm

lady cop wrote: this is the 11th day of rioting and unrest in France, and the government does not seem to be able to get a grip or gain control of the situation. it is spreading like wildfire....why are the French authorities seemingly so ineffectual?? French riots claim first fatality

The question that has been raised is: "Is this the beginning of the Jihad in Europe?"

valerie · Post by **valerie** » Mon Nov 07, 2005 12:26 pm

I'll never understand it... destroy your neighbor's cars, homes, businesses,

and for what? THEY didn't do anything to you. Risk arrest or death because

you're mad you think police are responsible for your friend's deaths? Huh?

Just makes no sense whatsoever to me.

Maybe we need a certain resident someone to go over and kick some butt!!

Parlez-vous anybody?

:D

Bez · Post by **Bez** » Mon Nov 07, 2005 12:30 pm

lady cop wrote: this is the 11th day of rioting and unrest in France, and the government does not seem to be able to get a grip or gain control of the situation. it is spreading like wildfire....why are the French authorities seemingly so ineffectual?? French riots claim first fatality

From what I've learned from the 'media' , the french citizens that are rioting have been housed in areas that are like ghettos and politicians have openly refered to them as SCUM......ummm

Listening to radio interviews the rioters seem to be well educated, but are discriminated against when it comes to employment and the young people are saying that they are constantly stopped and searched and abused by police.

FRENCH RIOTS

One man killed

4,700 cars torched

1,200 people arrested

17 people sentenced

108 police and firefighters injured

Figures as of 7 November

It appears that the rioting has today escalated to Toulouse, Marseille and other cities in France.

There were also reports of cars being torched overnight in Brussels and Berlin, but there was no confirmation of a link with the French unrest.

The whole situation is very worrying LC. Why is the goverment ineffective ? I think they have had their heads buried in the sand...the situation has been simmering for years....the same applies to other european countries.

Tombstone · Post by **Tombstone** » Mon Nov 07, 2005 12:30 pm

My attitude speaks volumes of French.

Tombstone · Post by **Tombstone** » Mon Nov 07, 2005 12:34 pm

Bez wrote: From what I've learned from the 'media' , the french citizens that are rioting have been housed in areas that are like ghettos and politicians have openly refered to them as SCUM......ummm

Listening to radio interviews the rioters seem to be well educated, but are discriminated against when it comes to employment and the young people are saying that they are constantly stopped and searched and abused by police.

Has anyone found some good local bloggers who are covering this?

Bez · Post by **Bez** » Mon Nov 07, 2005 12:34 pm

Le Monde says the riots raise doubts about France's social model. "In full view of everyone, a country which regards itself as the birthplace of human rights and the sanctuary of a generous social model is proving to be unable to ensure decent living conditions for young French people" who are the descendants of immigrants who contributed to France's economic success in the post-war period, the paper says.

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Mon Nov 07, 2005 12:36 pm

well it's right across the channel, and i know full well the English would quash that disorder very effectively and quickly. what kind of wishy-washy escargot-eating supercilious wussy cops are they??

the rationale does not excuse rioting and destruction.

Bez · Post by **Bez** » Mon Nov 07, 2005 12:48 pm

Tombstone wrote: The question that has been raised is: "Is this the beginning of the Jihad in Europe?"

Tombstone...what is your perception of 'Jihad in europe' ?

I think the definition of Jihad is from the Arabic...to struggle or fight.

The media seem to define Jihad as 'Holy War'...Muslims to fight against Non-Muslim.....a horrible thought....a Bin Laden concept !!!

I'm not sure that the problems in Paris are Mulsim related....more a case of immigrants being housed in isolated and in-hospitable areas. Many of the rioters are french born....children of immigrants (see my earlier post).

Sorry I'm no expert here, I just find it very sad ....

Bez · Post by **Bez** » Mon Nov 07, 2005 12:53 pm

lady cop wrote: well it's right across the channel, and i know full well the English would quash that disorder very effectively and quickly. what kind of wishy-washy escargot-eating supercilious wussy cops are they??

the rationale does not excuse rioting and destruction.

YOU're correct in what you say LC...unhappily or happily (depending on your point of view) we have had years of experience in quelling riots and disturbances.....Ireland, race riots, football hooligans etc. The French authorities need to get a grip very soon...things are getting out of control.

Bez · Post by **Bez** » Mon Nov 07, 2005 12:55 pm

Tombstone wrote: Has anyone found some good local bloggers who are covering this?

I wouldn't know where to start !

CARLA · Post by **CARLA** » Mon Nov 07, 2005 1:00 pm

Sad state of affairs. You would think the police couldn't have put a stop to this by now. Speaks volumes to the control, and conditions the French have.

So now what do these Slum dweller have to live in??? They have burned down their own living areas.. not very bright if you ask me..

booradley · Post by **booradley** » Mon Nov 07, 2005 3:29 pm

lady cop wrote: why are the French authorities seemingly so ineffectual?? French riots claim first fatality

that, my dear, would be because they are French. They're waiting for somoeone else to go in and sort it out for them.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Mon Nov 07, 2005 4:01 pm

I'm not surprised at this at all, I was in Paris in September and there was definetly a fair bit of aggro on the metro, you could tell there was a fair bit of tension in the air around the city, hard to define, but you could feel it, especially from the young North Africans. I don't think anyone in Europe can afford to throw stones at the French though, cause this problem is right across the continent. Given the current world situation it was ineviatble that there was gonna be trouble between young muslim men and the authorities in European countries. The problem is what to do about it, certainly deal with the disorder, but the long term problems remain, and its hard to see exactly what to do about it.

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Mon Nov 07, 2005 4:04 pm

simplistic as this may appear....enforce the law, i don't care WHO violates it. anarchy cannot be tolerated, innocents suffer. chirac grow some balls.

abbey · Post by **abbey** » Mon Nov 07, 2005 4:06 pm

booradley wrote: that, my dear, would be because they are French. They're waiting for somoeone else to go in and sort it out for them.:yh_rotfl :yh_rotfl Many a true word spoken in jest!

booradley · Post by **booradley** » Mon Nov 07, 2005 4:08 pm

I think by and large christian/muslim/jews/whatever get on reasonably well together provided they have enough money. France is special, they've created a whole underclass..they need to feel superior to someone..anyone. They don't even have a commitee for racial equality over there.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Mon Nov 07, 2005 5:46 pm

booradley wrote: I think by and large christian/muslim/jews/whatever get on reasonably well together provided they have enough money. France is special, they've created a whole underclass..they need to feel superior to someone..anyone. They don't even have a commitee for racial equality over there.

I think you have a point, but I really don't think this is just a French thing. In Britain integration in London is fairly good, but in the Northern cities its not that great either. I lived in Germany and its a very liberal country, despite what you might think, but they have the same problems as the French, they are much better at trying to deal with it though, as are the Brits.

Anyway, I have a Friend over there, she lives in Bastille, which is city centre, but she might have a better idea of what exactly is going on over there. I emailed her, so I should know a bit more tomorrow.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:40 am

for what the french papers are saying

http://www.guardian.co.uk/france/story/ ... 43,00.html

posted by far rider

I find this very interesting, first off this is happening in seperate areas simultaneouslyis it not? Thats my first problem, are these groups communicating and how? phone? internet? I'd like to know more about that, are they timed well? To me that would indicate an orginizational level indicating some type of leadership.

Tombstones comment about Jihad, my not be to far off. Why not insite fear by igniting an already agitated group causing anarchy. Thats what several Muslum factions have done in PI. They seek out the disenfranchised groups.

It keeps the authorities very busy putting out fires...

by phone and internet. Do a web search and you will probably be able to find some of the sites organising it.

There's a whole kind of sub culture muslim fundamentalists are just taking advantage of the situation rather than orchestrating it. I wouldn't read al queda in to it too much

There are political groups all over europe that will jump on the bandwagon and fan the flames. Religon and race is just one of the factors. For a lot of them it is intellectual masterbation some like direct action and will travel to riots at the drop of a hat

http://www.eurotopiamag.org/article.php3?id_article=10.

http://www.ainfos.ca/

http://army_of_the_ppl.tripod.com/

Actually there were groups of german anarchists across for the G8 summit I think for scottish police being used to policing old firm games it must have felt like a nice break

Think of the UK in the early eighties, europe is about to go through the same kind os social change that we did for good or ill. What is not being reported very much is demonstarions by other residents against the rioters. Right and Left in a european context is a whole different world from america and i suspect a lot moe complex. Think rainbow and ll the shades in between.

We have a fundamentlally different attitude to government that harks back to a debate that has been going on for years, What is government for? In europe one of the things is to improve the lot of it's people and help them out of poverty and make things better. That's why when you see reports criticising the govt for it's failures it's not a pathetic oh dear you should help me I'm poor it's more a look you B%&&&&D we elected you to do certain things and you are failing to address our concerns.

posted by ladycop

simplistic as this may appear....enforce the law, i don't care WHO violates it. anarchy cannot be tolerated, innocents suffer. chirac grow some balls.

He has a problem as bringing troops is political dynamite, he was a lame duck before all this anyway. Best thing is bad weather to keep them off the streets.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:57 am

gmc wrote: He has a problem as bringing troops is political dynamite, he was a lame duck before all this anyway. Best thing is bad weather to keep them off the streets.:yh_rotfl Wait it out and hope God solves it for them?

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:25 am

Thanks GMC those French newspaper editorials were very interesting indeed. France has been very quick in recent years to point out the flaws in other countries' (most obviously the U.S. when the 2 countries got into that hissy fit over the war in Iraq), seems that many French people were uncomfortable with the way their government went on, and are worried that the displayed arrogance will come back to haunt them. I think they should look at the experience that the Brits gained when they had large scale rioting and social unrest in the 1980's, that would mean of course that France would have to accept that it could learn something useful from Britain, which they would never admit, but you never know.

Bothwell · Post by **Bothwell** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 9:11 am

On a practical note they need horses. Ive seen the police horses in action and it's impressive.

One point that has not been mentioned is France's colonial past many of the terrorists around the world come from their former North African colonies and their racial hatred has been brewing long before the hatred for the UK and USA

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 1:52 am

Another link you might find of interest.

http://www.euronews.net/create_html.php?page=home

posted by accountable

Wait it out and hope God solves it for them?

No, but it might discourage the ones who are joining in for fun. Most riots take place in good weather.

I wouldn't be so smug-it's not as if you don't have riots in the US but one difference is that most western european countries are loathe to get troops involved to restore order. For the french government to use that kind of force would be a major event. It's not that riots are new in france it's the widespread nature and scale that has caused surprise.

ubetta · Post by **ubetta** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:54 am

Bez wrote: I wouldn't know where to start !

http://www.pavefrance.com/blog/ Is a blog about France. Now, they don't exactly answer your questions but do pull a lot of articles together with all different point of views. One of the points they are making is that no one really wants to identify who the rioters are...

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 12:36 pm

Do the french police carry weapons? Are they permitted to shoot at unarmed citizens? How far are they allowed to go to stop the rioting? I have no idea how France works.

I'll give you a bit of what I know from being there. The French police do carry handguns, all of them, and they use them. I'm not sure about what there rules for using force are, but they are not softies or anything. They do also have troops at airports and sensitive areas, but they are not normally called out on the streets unless the situation is completely out of hand. There's a common misconception that people have about France, in that the French are somehow effeminite or soft, trust me, you go into Paris on a Saturday night and you'll soon be disabused of that notion. My firend lives in Bastille which is a inner-city district near the Sacre Couer, she says that the situation is quite bad, and that there have been incidents right in the city centre.

As for the general rioting, it may be hard to understand why the authorities over here a bit more reluctant to put the boot in, in these situations, I think its a case of not turing an arms dump into an explosion by kicking a firework at it. There are a lot of extreme right wing politicians in France who would love to turn this into a racial or ethnic conflict, so the government is probably trying to avoid being taken along for that ride.

Anyway, the latest I have heard is that the French government have declared a state of emergency in Paris and some other large cities. Thats not a good sign.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 12:48 pm

posted by far rider

Do the french police carry weapons? Are they permitted to shoot at unarmed citizens? How far are they allowed to go to stop the rioting? I have no idea how France works.

They are armed, no they shouldn't fire at unarmed cirizens any more than american police are supposed to, stopping riots, water cannon, shields batons etc. The contentious bit would be if they opened fire on a crowd or if troops were called in to quell things. Apart rom that i cannot claim to be an expert on the subject

I was thinking their military could do what they always do and keep their arms in the air... I hear they now have rubber bumpers on their rifles to keep them from damaged when dropped.

I suppose they could call in the Foreign Legion.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 1:27 pm

Far Rider wrote: I had pictured the LA riots earlier when I wrote that I remember the pictures of the Korean businessmen shooting their 9mm's up the street at the rioters (crowds of them) in order to protect their businesses and their lives.

I think its odd that citizens can do that and get away with it but police cannot?

I suppose that depends on whether your life really is threatened or not. Anyway the ordinary people in France generally don't have guns so normally French police who shot unarmed cicilians would be using a dissproportionate use of force. Lets hope that the rioters don't acually get their hands on guns, that could be extremely bad.

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:44 pm

President Bush May Send Up To 5 Marines For French Assistance

President Bush has authorized the Joint Chiefs to begin drawing up a battle plan to pull France's ass out of the fire again.

Facing an apparent overwhelming force of up to 400 pissed off teenagers Mr. Bush doubts France's ability to hold off the little **** ants.

"Hell, if the last two world wars are any indication, I would expect France to surrender any day now", said Bush.

Joint Chiefs head, Gen. Peter Pace, warned the President that it might be necessary to send up to 5 Marines to get things under control.

The general admitted that 5 Marines may be overkill but he wanted to get this thing under control within 24 hours of arriving on scene.

He stated he was having a hard time finding even one Marine to help those ungrateful bastards out for a third time but thought that he could persuade a few women Marines to do the job before they went on pregnancy leave.

President Bush asked Gen. Pace to get our Marines out of there as soon as possible after order was restored.

He also reminded Gen. Pace to make sure the Marines did not take soap, razors, or deodorant with them.

The least they stand out the better.

abbey · Post by **abbey** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:50 pm

:yh_rotfl :yh_rotfl :yh_rotflTHAT made me lol, thanks x

G-man · Post by **G-man** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:11 pm

Omigosh! :wah:

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 11:36 am

That is very funny, though I suspect of the 5 who were sent over, after a month in Paris, they would have resigned their commissions and 2 would have become disaffetcted chefs, 2 wildly emotional impressionist painters, and the last one a suicidal post modernist philospher. Its funny, the place just has an effect on you.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Sat Nov 12, 2005 3:18 am

Far Rider wrote: kinda like smokin pot then? just lowers yer motervation?:D

My theory is that its the French womens' fault, bless em;) .