There was a British army colonel on the radio today, discussing PTSD and the recently proposed US/Taliban deal. I was rather struck that he had previously felt the Allied engagement in Afghanistan had been worthwhile because of the lives it had saved. I hope I’ve accurately reflected his comment.
I’m stuck trying to work out whose lives would have been in jeopardy had the coalition of the willing not deployed in Afghanistan to start with.
I’m moderately sure that the majority of British service people would feel a foreign occupation of Britain should be met with civil disobedience and insurgent tactics by the resident population until the occupation was defeated, and that as a general principle this would be true in any country. The only time I have heard the principle disputed is when the occupying force is that with which one serves, in which case the resident population’s insurgency is to be deplored and the occupiers are for some reason to be cheered on.
There was, to the best of my knowledge, no civil war in Afghanistan prior to the Western invasion. After the invasion there was clearly Quisling collaboration alongside domestic resistance.
I’m frankly baffled why anyone should think PTSD might not be expected in these circumstances. It stems from thinking that the individual was serving a respectable cause, having volunteered to perform whatever task their political masters chose to set them. The solution was surely not to voluntarily hand over such power to such scoundrel policy-makers in the first place. Did anyone think the scoundrel politicians in Britain were to be trusted with a military capability outside of the Homeland? What rosy-tinted lying spectacles were they wearing at the time. What could they possibly have got out of a contract like that other than an education and a regular pay cheque. And, eventually, PTSD.
The world is a piss-awful place for a lot of people a lot of the time, mainly because volunteers refuse to think beyond their own short-term advantage.
A minor rant about overseas deployment
A minor rant about overseas deployment
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
A minor rant about overseas deployment
Afghanistan has been in the midst of "Civil War" since the end of the '70s
It was the defeat of a recent Communists government that led to the Soviets sending military personnel there to "stabilize" the region. That phrase should sound familiar to my countryment who remember Korea and Vietnam. (Not to mention El Salvador, Niceragua, Iraq, ...)
It was the defeat of a recent Communists government that led to the Soviets sending military personnel there to "stabilize" the region. That phrase should sound familiar to my countryment who remember Korea and Vietnam. (Not to mention El Salvador, Niceragua, Iraq, ...)
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
A minor rant about overseas deployment
ATTENTION, ATTENTION !...............................has anybody seen, or heard from ZAP ? Does anybody know whether she is still with us, or has she passed to a better place where she can roam to her heart's content ?
I know that she was a 'paid up member' and her name was always green, so maybe Bryn could indicate whether her annual sub has been stopped or whether she is still paying ?
Please try to help !
Many apologies for seeming to mess up this thread, but what is a poor owd gal meant to do to get noticed ?
I know that she was a 'paid up member' and her name was always green, so maybe Bryn could indicate whether her annual sub has been stopped or whether she is still paying ?
Please try to help !
Many apologies for seeming to mess up this thread, but what is a poor owd gal meant to do to get noticed ?
I'm a Saga-lout, growing old disgracefully
A minor rant about overseas deployment
LarsMac;1531102 wrote: Afghanistan has been in the midst of "Civil War" since the end of the '70s
It was the defeat of a recent Communists government that led to the Soviets sending military personnel there to "stabilize" the region. That phrase should sound familiar to my countryment who remember Korea and Vietnam. (Not to mention El Salvador, Niceragua, Iraq, ...)
I think you delve too deeply into the country's history to say there was a civil war in progress when the West invaded. The Taliban had been the only government for five years at that point, the Northern Alliance held at most 10% of the country, around the prime opium production region, and wasn't fighting the government at all. Once the Northern Alliance allied with the invasion force, they provided the nucleus of the new Kabul administration and national opium production skyrocketed again.
Is that a fair summary?
It was the defeat of a recent Communists government that led to the Soviets sending military personnel there to "stabilize" the region. That phrase should sound familiar to my countryment who remember Korea and Vietnam. (Not to mention El Salvador, Niceragua, Iraq, ...)
I think you delve too deeply into the country's history to say there was a civil war in progress when the West invaded. The Taliban had been the only government for five years at that point, the Northern Alliance held at most 10% of the country, around the prime opium production region, and wasn't fighting the government at all. Once the Northern Alliance allied with the invasion force, they provided the nucleus of the new Kabul administration and national opium production skyrocketed again.
Is that a fair summary?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
A minor rant about overseas deployment
Even when The Taliban held much of the country, there had been factional fighting in many areas for years. It has not been Stabilized during the Occupation.
And I do not feel terribly confident in tRump managing to actually extricate the US from the place with any more success than he had in Syria.
And I do not feel terribly confident in tRump managing to actually extricate the US from the place with any more success than he had in Syria.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
A minor rant about overseas deployment
LarsMac;1531108 wrote: And I do not feel terribly confident in tRump managing to actually extricate the US from the place with any more success than he had in Syria.
I had no idea there were any armed American troops in Syria outside whatever embassy you might have there, if we discount intelligence assets. You can't possibly have troops in Syria, you don't have air superiority.
I'm not saying you don't arm surrogates but that's not the same thing. The American press only reports from abroad if there's a dead US citizen involved in the story.
I had no idea there were any armed American troops in Syria outside whatever embassy you might have there, if we discount intelligence assets. You can't possibly have troops in Syria, you don't have air superiority.
I'm not saying you don't arm surrogates but that's not the same thing. The American press only reports from abroad if there's a dead US citizen involved in the story.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
A minor rant about overseas deployment
spot;1531113 wrote: I had no idea there were any armed American troops in Syria outside whatever embassy you might have there, if we discount intelligence assets. You can't possibly have troops in Syria, you don't have air superiority.
I'm not saying you don't arm surrogates but that's not the same thing. The American press only reports from abroad if there's a dead US citizen involved in the story.
American troops clash with pro-government group in northeast Syria
No End date for us troops in Syria
I'm not saying you don't arm surrogates but that's not the same thing. The American press only reports from abroad if there's a dead US citizen involved in the story.
American troops clash with pro-government group in northeast Syria
No End date for us troops in Syria
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
A minor rant about overseas deployment
I might buy a t-shirt with "nobody is a terrorist" printed on it at this rate.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Re: A minor rant about overseas deployment
I shall press this point for a moment, if I may.
The prior example of France after the German occupation, where thousands (8,000 from memory) of French collaborators were murdered in reprisal, is very evidently different to the Afghan response where it's clear nothing like thousands have been murdered. The Taliban government has been actively engaged in an amnesty since it returned to power after the Coalition of the Willing left the country. If thousands of collaborators had been killed there would be evidence to that effect, not "based on our research and understanding … it was an attack towards an individual who the perpetrator knew assisted the UK armed forces". Private revenge attacks are not "the lives of many thousands of Afghans".
It would be more sensible for the British government to congratulate the Afghan Taliban for their obvious restraint with regard to quislings abandoned by their previous employers. As for the propaganda in the red-top tabloid press, it's shockingly lazy kneejerk fatuous reporting - so, nothing new there then.
Unless, of course, anyone has evidence to the contrary?
Larsmac, are you still claiming Afghanistan hasn't stabilised under the Taliban government or have you revised that since 2020? It appears to me to be far less lawless than it obviously was under the Coalition repression. It's not Louisiana, but I don't think anyone there would want it to be Louisiana. It's Afghanistan. It has regained its national dignity after being trashed by a wretched geopolitical twenty year enemy occupation during which the place was a bonanza for Western-backed drugs cartels:
The Taliban are, and always (in my estimate) have been, a moral people, regardless of their non-Western cultural values - I'd not be surprised if I have non-Western cultural values too. They certainly haven't engaged in mass killings of quisling collaborationists since their return to government and neither do I suspect they're about to start.
As background to the Afghanistan Response Route (ARR) UK resettlement scheme specific to the leak itself:
Bloody incompetence not to have brought them all out with the troops then wasn't it, if they were going to. They'd had twenty years to plan the evacuation. The unprofessional lack of contingency planning in military circles all too often resembles the Keystone Kops, as in everything to do with this story. There seems to be a policy of "lie about it and everything will be fine".
Conservative ministers used an unprecedented superinjunction to suppress a data breach that led the UK government to offer relocation to 15,000 Afghans in a secret scheme with a potential cost of more than £2bn.
The Afghanistan Response Route (ARR) was created in haste after it emerged that personal information about 18,700 Afghans who had applied to come to the UK had been leaked in error by a British defence official in early 2022.
Panicked ministers and officials at the Ministry of Defence learned of the breach in August 2023 after data was posted to a Facebook group and applied to the high court for an injunction, the first sought by a British government – to prevent any further media disclosure.
It was feared that publicity could put the lives of many thousands of Afghans at risk if the Taliban, who had control of the country after the western withdrawal in August 2021, were to become aware of the existence of the leaked list and to obtain it.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... ish-forces
I may be misunderstanding the lawyer's comment: “We are aware of incidents where there are individuals who are named on the list that they have been killed. And based on our research and understanding … it was an attack towards an individual who the perpetrator knew assisted the UK armed forces,” - but that looks like one incident, rather than many, incidents. Though I would not dispute the probability of several. But I would dispute "put the lives of many thousands of Afghans at risk" in today's context where there is, I suggest, no such risk. There is a difference between private score-settling and Afghan government policy.Adnan Malik, the head of data protection at Barings Law, which is representing about 1,000 of the victims, said some of those listed on the leaked database have had to go into hiding in Afghanistan, while others had been killed in targeted attacks. The law firm is now working with some of those affected to pursue potential legal action.
“We are aware of incidents where there are individuals who are named on the list that they have been killed. And based on our research and understanding … it was an attack towards an individual who the perpetrator knew assisted the UK armed forces,” Malik said.
That is Abdullah’s greatest fear. “I’m in Afghanistan currently and if this information is leaked, the current Afghanistan regime – they will find me and torture me and it’s a risk for my life,” he said. “I’m very concerned about myself and other people who are included in this data breach. I’m very sad. I thought the British government was very strong and now I’m in a very different situation.”
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... -data-leak
The prior example of France after the German occupation, where thousands (8,000 from memory) of French collaborators were murdered in reprisal, is very evidently different to the Afghan response where it's clear nothing like thousands have been murdered. The Taliban government has been actively engaged in an amnesty since it returned to power after the Coalition of the Willing left the country. If thousands of collaborators had been killed there would be evidence to that effect, not "based on our research and understanding … it was an attack towards an individual who the perpetrator knew assisted the UK armed forces". Private revenge attacks are not "the lives of many thousands of Afghans".
It would be more sensible for the British government to congratulate the Afghan Taliban for their obvious restraint with regard to quislings abandoned by their previous employers. As for the propaganda in the red-top tabloid press, it's shockingly lazy kneejerk fatuous reporting - so, nothing new there then.
Unless, of course, anyone has evidence to the contrary?
Larsmac, are you still claiming Afghanistan hasn't stabilised under the Taliban government or have you revised that since 2020? It appears to me to be far less lawless than it obviously was under the Coalition repression. It's not Louisiana, but I don't think anyone there would want it to be Louisiana. It's Afghanistan. It has regained its national dignity after being trashed by a wretched geopolitical twenty year enemy occupation during which the place was a bonanza for Western-backed drugs cartels:
The enforcement of the drugs ban in Afghanistan is now entering its third year [2025]. As a result, global annual opium production
has plummeted and remains at historically low levels. If production is not taken up again or shifted elsewhere, there will be
global opiate supply shortages in the coming years.
https://www.unodc.org/roca/uploads/docu ... _4_web.pdf
The Taliban are, and always (in my estimate) have been, a moral people, regardless of their non-Western cultural values - I'd not be surprised if I have non-Western cultural values too. They certainly haven't engaged in mass killings of quisling collaborationists since their return to government and neither do I suspect they're about to start.
As background to the Afghanistan Response Route (ARR) UK resettlement scheme specific to the leak itself:
ARR Focus:
The ARR focuses on relocating individuals who were directly employed by or worked alongside UK armed forces in Afghanistan.
Numbers:
Around 900 principals (the main applicants) and their immediate families have arrived through the ARR.
Scheme End:
The UK has announced that it will no longer accept new applicants to the ARR, meaning the number of arrivals through this specific route will not increase.
Cost:
The cost of relocating the 900 principals and their families through the ARR is estimated to be around £400 million.
Source: Google search AI summary, excuse my laziness.
Bloody incompetence not to have brought them all out with the troops then wasn't it, if they were going to. They'd had twenty years to plan the evacuation. The unprofessional lack of contingency planning in military circles all too often resembles the Keystone Kops, as in everything to do with this story. There seems to be a policy of "lie about it and everything will be fine".
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.