Is it hard to come out as an atheist?

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greydeadhead
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Post by greydeadhead »

Your situation sounds very familiar to these ears. My family could also be called "pretty religious", especially my Mother. The being forced to go to church, worship their way, believe thier way..etc, etc, etc,. With age though, comes wisdom.. so they say. Myself, I believe that religion is a choice. We are not obiligated to worship the same way that our parents do. As far as a higher power is concerned perhaps there is one.. or a divine plan maybe. Personally I believe we are all responsible for our actions in the here and now. Will we be held responsible for these actions after we pass from this world to the next, I have no way of knowing. Okay,.. nuff of that rant. Back to the matter at hand. Unfortunately I think that your coming out is going to be difficult no matter how gently you break it to them. They will feel that they did something wrong.. or failed in your religious or moral upbringing. My parents were slightlly miffed (ummm.. well alittle bit more than slightly but.. ) but I do give them credit for allowing me to follow my own path so to speak. Now the subject of the children.. this can be difficult because if your relatives are as religious as you say they are, there is a good chance you will be accused of leading them down the road to hell.. The only way that you can deter this is to communicate to the children that they can be different and still love their relatives. Also impress upon them that they have the freedom of choice.. that they can worship as they wish. Keep the lines of communication open.. My daughter is more religious than I am.. but we communicate and accept these personal differences. Anyway.. Hope this helps.. have a great day..
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gmc
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Post by gmc »

agnostic // n. & adj.

n.

1 a person who believes that nothing is known, or can be known, of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena.

2[QUOTE] a person who is uncertain or non-committal about a certain thing.

adj. of or relating to agnostics or agnosticism.
agnosticism // n.

[a-1 + gnostic]


Try agnostic rather than aethiest. Personally I find fundamentalist aethiests just as irritating as fundamental christians, muslims whatever.

You can no more prove god exists than you can prove he doesn't. Gogito ergo sum to quote rene descartes, you can demonstrate you exist but all else follows from that it's up to you where you go from there. You either have faith or you do not. I find most "bible thumpers" don't like to think too deeply about it perhaps because they think you are questioning their faith. Using the scriptures to prove the existence of god doesn't work for me personally because I don't believe they are the words of god in the first place. You get involved in a kind of logic loop a mobius strip of never ending arguement and debate-once you believe in the binle we can talk about god buity if you don't believe they are the words of god etc etc Good fun but ultimately you sometimes have to agree to disagree and find your own way.

A true christian I would suspect accept you for what you are, try to persuade rather than coerce. Fundamentalists christians or muslims are neither christian or muslim IMHO as both preach tolerance which you don't see fundamentaists doing. With both it is more about control more than anything else, they want everybody thinking like they do and conforming dissenters are dealt with harshly.

If your fundamentalist christian extended family turn your back on you or refuse to talk to you then they are not christian and they do not really care about you as a person so you aren't losing much. You are not a bad person you just don't see things their way.

I would suggest you teach your kids about religon and let them work things out for themselves.

Also, I don't like them pushing their values on my kids. On the other hand, I haven't yet become comfortable enough to tell my young kids that I don't believe in a god. Even in their school they hear about religion and atheists are "bad people." To me, it's like a big secret I carry, yet it seems so silly to me.


Maybe teach them the difference between christian values and bigotry.
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Post by koan »

I don't have a particular religion, although I am very spiritual, my family is mildly Christian and my little brother converted to Islam. Because they are not pushy about belief I never had that kind of problem but my Muslim brother really does believe that we are all going to the Muslim version of hell unless we convert too. He tries to sway us on occasion but has relaxed a bit now that he has settled into the religion. It is terrible not to be able to be honest with your own family but knowledge may be the best defence.

If you are going to tell them, I would suggest plowing your way through the bible first and finding all the passages that relate to tolerance and that will aid your defence if they attack. It might be easier, also, if you don't tell them you are athiest (as an extreme), maybe start out with "I do not believe in the bible as the word of God".

It is annoying when family tries to dictate how you raise your children, whether it is religious input or any other forced 'advice'. This is less to do with your religious choice than to do with your ability to set boundaries. Let them know their job is done, that you are an adult with your own life and your own will. I'm not particularily good with boundaries but, for some reason, have no problem telling my nosy mother to back off. I think because family has a way of annoying me more than anyone else.

Good luck!
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anastrophe
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Post by anastrophe »

gmc wrote:

A true christian I would suspect[...]
the last true christian died on the cross.
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Post by anastrophe »

KlatunIckto wrote: Bravo anastrophe.
i can't take credit for it. the accurate quote (i just looked it up) is



The last Christian died on the cross.

--Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche



a few other good quotes i found while looking that up:



Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than going to the garage makes you a car.

--Laurence J. Peter



I admire the serene assurance of those who have religious faith. It is wonderful to observe the calm confidence of a Christian with four aces.

--Mark Twain



Christian, n. One who follows the teachings of Christ insofar as they are not inconsistent with a life of sin.

--Ambrose Bierce



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koan
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Post by koan »

anastrophe wrote: i can't take credit for it. the accurate quote (i just looked it up) is



The last Christian died on the cross.

--Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche




Neitzsche is most famously misquoted as having said

"God is dead." (taken out of context)

One of my favourite quotes is

Neitzsche is dead.

--God

:yh_giggle
gmc
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Post by gmc »

anastrophe

the last true christian died on the cross.


I am inclined to agree with you (faints) :D
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Post by capt_buzzard »

another debate?
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anastrophe
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Post by anastrophe »

gmc wrote: anastrophe







I am inclined to agree with you (faints) :D
aside from some intractible 'my country can beat up your country' that we have between us, we likely have more in common than not.
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Post by Ted »

I think warsai has a good approach. That way nothing is hidden. Educate the children first and then educate the rest of the family.

As a Christian Pluralist I have no problem with your choice of paths. We must each walk our own.

A quote from a poem Nietzsche wrote near the end of his lifel





All the streams of my tears>











To me the path is a very personal one. And whether one is a Christian, agnostic or atheist it is hopefullly based on a lot of thought and research and study.

Shalom

Ted :-6
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Post by Suresh Gupta »

Rinemay,

On FG you will find nice people. They will try to understand your problem and give their best advice. Read them and decide for yourself. Will it be offensive if I say that may God be on your side!
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samanthaguy
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Post by samanthaguy »

Your religon is yours, tell the world hold your head high and be proud.. do not let anyone decide that for you, it is your choice....
:confused:VERY OPEN MINDED....BUT OFTEN CONFUSED......
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Suresh Gupta
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Post by Suresh Gupta »

You are so right Samanthaguy.
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LottomagicZ4941
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Post by LottomagicZ4941 »

I don't understand why an athist would need to come out.

Now us Christians are to share the great commision and not hide our light under a lamp shade and all that.

We offer salvation. Athistism offers no salvation. Why would an athist need to come out?

I also agree with samanthaguy "Your religon is yours, tell the world hold your head high and be proud.. do not let anyone decide that for you, it is your choice...."

Perhaps your choosing to come out because you sort of know the truth but want to be convinced.

Lotto

http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7058

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anastrophe
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Post by anastrophe »

LottomagicZ4941 wrote:

We offer salvation. Athistism offers no salvation. Why would an athist need to come out?
christians do NOT offer salvation. christ offers salvation. this difference is one of my fundamental beefs with an awful lot of christians, who seem to believe that because *they* accepted the offer, they then become 'commissioned salesmen' for christ.



pardon my french, but **** that.
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Post by greydeadhead »

The truth.. according to who..?? You.. Me .. a third party. That statement can be twisted in so many directions it isn't even sensible.
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Post by abbey »

As an Atheist, i personally, would never deign to question anothers proof of their god or deighty.

I may envy them their strength and comfort that they draw from their religion though.

Live and let live. :yh_peace

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Post by Suresh Gupta »

"Salesmanship" approach for religion is not new. It has been practiced in all times. Some people have been earning their living through religion. What is now happening is simply 'marketing religion'. I am not aware about what is the scenerio in other countries but in India many people are earning their living by markeing religion. They have established big organizations and selling religion across the board. So many lectures on religion and unending lines of people waiting before temples are seen everywhere. People are competing with each oher in showing that they are more religious than others and doing everything to please the God. But the result is more crime, more hatred, more violance and more of everything bad. Why is it so? I believe it is hapenning because religion has been commercialized. It has been made a commodity to be sold like any other product of daily use.

Religion or faith is a personal matter. It is a personal relationship between a human being and his God. I believe that no other person should interfere in this relationship. One should create his own relationship with his God, raher than trying to teach religion to others or commenting on others' way of worship or others' God or Gods.

There has been lot of violance as many poeple have tried to force their religion, their faith, their God on others. If people stop interferingin in others' relationship with God then the world will become a much better place to live.
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Post by Ted »

SG:-6

Well put. This desire to sell religion with great fervor is the result of exclusivism: My God is greater then your God. It is both a tragedy and a sin.

Shalom

Ted:-6
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Post by Accountable »

LottomagicZ4941 wrote: I don't understand why an athist would need to come out.

....... [portions deleted]

Perhaps your choosing to come out because you sort of know the truth but want to be convinced.
I think your last statement answered your first.
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Post by Clint »

anastrophe wrote: christians do NOT offer salvation. christ offers salvation. this difference is one of my fundamental beefs with an awful lot of christians, who seem to believe that because *they* accepted the offer, they then become 'commissioned salesmen' for christ.



pardon my french, but **** that.
When I’m told I need to work toward getting people saved or someone tells me they feel badly because they weren’t able to “get someone saved” I just tell them it isn’t my job description. The Spirit of God has that job.

I have noticed though, that many people have a problem with God because of something a religious person or group did. They have difficulty separating God from the people who they see as God’s representatives. They have elevated people who misrepresent God to God’s status and allowed them to block their way to God. Looking past people and their faulty actions and allowing God to reveal himself to them through a clean, direct line is the key.
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Post by iceman64 »

You're statment, " I don't belive in a higher power", admits to the excistance of one:wah:
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Post by BabyRider »

iceman64 wrote: You're statment, " I don't belive in a higher power", admits to the excistance of one:wah:
I don't get that....expound?

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Post by Ted »

Clint:-6

You're not going to believe this but I agree with you. Sounds good to me.

Shalom

Ted:-6
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Post by Ted »

Just a thought on the issue of faith or non-faith. Both atheists and those of faith can become pushy about their position. I really do wonder if it is not an ego thing. The more support one gains for ones position the better one feels.

So the atheist is simply trying his/her best to feel better about his or her situation by gaining supporters. Why else would they be so insistent about atheism. If in the end they are correct then it won't matter a hill of beans to anyone and yet those of faith will have lived and died with some form of positive hope. What is wrong with positive hope?

Don't those with a diagnosis of cancer need some form of positive hope? One example. Who would deny these folks their hope?

Personally I'm a Christian Pluralist.

Shalom

Ted:-6
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Post by Suresh Gupta »

I believe that 'faith' and 'no-faith' are two sides of the same coin. Also it is a matter of subjective opinion if it comes to pass an opinion on other's faith or no-faith. I try to avoid passing judgments on others. It keeps me cool.

Another thing I believe that it is a purely personal relationship between a human being and his God, and others have no need to talk about this relationship or pass judgements whether it is right or wrong. Take the case of an individual who is one but has many forms - father to his son, husband to his wife, son to his father, brother to his sister, friend to his friend, student to his teacher, emoloyee to his employer and so on. Everything goes OK as long as we respect these relaionships and do not inerfere in these relationships and try to put our relationship above ohers' relationship to the same person. The same thing is with our relationship (faith) or no-relationship (no-faith) with God.
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Post by Accountable »

Clint wrote: [...]

I have noticed though, that many people have a problem with God because of something a religious person or group did. They have difficulty separating God from the people who they see as God’s representatives.
And yet, if there were no one to be a role model, any religion would die. That's the beauty of Christianity, don't you think? We're told to go out and do good works, yet we can't get into heaven by good works. No behavior will bring salvation, only thought; but if thought were the only evidence of Christianity it would never have swept the world.



It's not that one has to do good works or in order to be a Christian, but that one will simply want to do good works because he has accepted Christ. Gee, you can't proselytize unless you don't proselytize. I guess God made Yogi Berra on purpose.
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Post by Suresh Gupta »

Accountable wrote: ........if there were no one to be a role model, any religion would die.......


I beg to differ on this. Any religion is based on fundamental concepts and principles which never change with time. A person seen as role model in a religion, only re-explain these concepts and principles which other people might have forgetten or misinterpreted according to their convenience. The people following the role model see him starting a new religion. It is simply like that a river orginating in the high mountains is divided in many small rivers and streams during the course of its journey, but at he end all these different rivers and streams merge in to the sea.

There may be many religions started as a following of many role models but the concepts and principles are same, and all religions preach the same thing, though in different words.
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Post by Accountable »

Suresh Gupta wrote: I beg to differ on this. Any religion is based on fundamental concepts and principles which never change with time. A person seen as role model in a religion, only re-explain these concepts and principles which other people might have forgetten or misinterpreted according to their convenience. The people following the role model see him starting a new religion. It is simply like that a river orginating in the high mountains is divided in many small rivers and streams during the course of its journey, but at he end all these different rivers and streams merge in to the sea.



There may be many religions started as a following of many role models but the concepts and principles are same, and all religions preach the same thing, though in different words.
Too "big picture," Suresh. I'm saying that an individual will not consider joining a particular religion unless he/she sees a benefit. that benefit has to be seen in another person, a role model.



I've just re-read your post. I'm leaving the original response and adding:

So you believe that even if every living human abandons and forgets all religions, somebody will instinctively pick it up later? Interesting concept.
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Post by Suresh Gupta »

Accountable wrote: Too "big picture," Suresh. I'm saying that an individual will not consider joining a particular religion unless he/she sees a benefit. that benefit has to be seen in another person, a role model.


You are right on this. It is a fact that every individual looks at the religion with a potential benefit point of view, and that is seen through the role model in that religion. But the interesting point here is that the role model only speaks about the interpretations and practices and in a language which can be understood by the people in his time. He does not contradict the basic concepts and principles of religion.



I've just re-read your post. I'm leaving the original response and adding:

So you believe that even if every living human abandons and forgets all religions, somebody will instinctively pick it up later? Interesting concept.


No human being can abandon and forget religion. He can only abandon and forget a particular interpretation given by a role model at some time or a practice associated with that interpretation. When he accepts a new interpretation by another role model, he is in fact accepting the religion only. Earlier he was accepting and practicing the religion through a particular interpretation, and now he is accepting and practicing the same religion through another interpretation. It is only the interpretation which is changing as put forward by different role models at different times. The religion is not changing. And a thing which does not change does not die.
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Post by Ted »

SG:-6

As a Christian Pluralist I completely agree with you. My faith of choice is Christianity and I accept the Divinity of the Risen Christ. However, had I been born is a Muslim country or a Hindu oriented country then I would probably have chosen them.

You are correc we are all heading for the same sea.

Shalom

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Post by Suresh Gupta »

Ted wrote: SG:-6

As a Christian Pluralist I completely agree with you. My faith of choice is Christianity and I accept the Divinity of the Risen Christ. However, had I been born is a Muslim country or a Hindu oriented country then I would probably have chosen them.

You are correc we are all heading for the same sea.

Shalom

Ted:-6


Thanks dear. Love and tolerance is the key to world peace. It will also take us to Him, The Almighty God, perceived and approached in different ways by different people.
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Post by Ted »

SG:-6

Agreed.

Blessings

Shalom

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Post by Ted »

SG:-6

Christian mystic and theologian Matthew Fox uses another closely related metaphor in his writings.

God is like an underground river that cannot be interfered with through damming or diversion etc. Along the shore of the river are many wells: the Hindu, the Christian, the Buddhist etc. I loved it. In fact I took a course this summer from Matthew Fox. He is a fine and passionate man whose hope is that we can all get rid of our complex religiosity and return to the spirituality on which all of the world's great faiths are founded.

Shalom

Ted
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Post by gmc »

Strikes me it is only hard to "come out" as a non believer because of the narrow minded bigotry of so called "christians"

To me the one defining chracteristic of a christian is tolerance of others irrespective of their particular faith or belief system. Perhaps he did tell the disciples to spread the gospel but I have never seen anywhere suggested that he meant beat the CYUP out of everyone till they conform, put the fear of god in to them or anything remotely resembling the kind of christian intolerance you see everywhere.

Forgive those who trespass against us and an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth cannot both be christian sentiments yet many so called christians seem to have no problem believing both. Faith does not need religon. If I were you rinemay I would not worry about people who are capable of ceasing contact with a family member just because you do not conform to their idea of a good christian. If they cannot accept you the way god has made you why worry-they have a problem not you. A true christian should be able to accept you for the person you are. If they can't why waste your time feeling guilty about offending them-they don't care about you.

Some of the most vile atrocities in history have been commited in the name of religon. In Iraq moslem kills moslem, catholic kills protestant in Ireland, or if they are feeling compassionate they just kneecap them. in olden days when catholic was burning heretic or protestant was burning catholic and it rained was this seen as a sign from god? Nope it was seen as rain and they piled on the timber and pig fat to try and get a good blaze going. (christian compassion you see helping them burn quickly on the way to paradise)

A pox on all their houses.
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Post by Suresh Gupta »

gmc wrote: ........Some of the most vile atrocities in history have been commited in the name of religon...........


It is very unfortunate but is true. These self appointed protectors of religion are its worst enemy. They are criminals of humanity and God.
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Post by gmc »

What depresses me is the number of fundamentalists of all types of religon who seem determined to have religious wars whether anybody else wants them or not. In Israel fundamentalist jews want conflict just as much as fundamentalist palestinians. Fundamentalist christians want religious war as much as fundamentalist moslems. Many christians seem to believe this is the end time as "foretold" in the bible, given half a chance they would make it come true. Wish thay had all killed themselves, like that strange sect, so they could be carried away by that passing comet, save a a lot of trouble in the world.

We're getting sucked in to conflict over the most ridicuous of beliefs.
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Post by Adam Zapple »

Fundamentalist christians want religious war as much as fundamentalist moslems.


What do you base that statement on? Musta been that Pentacostal that walked into a crowded bus station and blew himself up after his radical preacher called for death to all infidels.
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Post by Clint »

gmc wrote: A pox on all their houses.
The ones that really concern me today are the ones who hate religion and by extension the people in those religions. They have formed the religion of no religion and appear to be declaring war on all other religions.
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Post by gmc »

posted by adam zapple

What do you base that statement on? Musta been that Pentacostal that walked into a crowded bus station and blew himself up after his radical preacher called for death to all infidels.


Well hardly, some christians believe you go to hell if you commit suicide. Maybe I expressed myself badly and should have said some of the more extreme fundamentalist christians rather than implying I meant them all. I am also cognizant that what i mean by a fundamentalist christian may have a different connotation to me than to you.

In Israel fundamentalist jews want conflict just as much as fundamentalist palestinians. Fundamentalist christians want religious war as much as fundamentalist moslems.


It is an opinion garnered from trawling all sorts of weird sites, not to mention the odd sermon on the God channel. Some of the christian fundamentalist sites seem to be delighting in the present conflict and see it as prophesised in the bible and base their support of Israel on their reading of the bible. compromise is not on the agenda. I have seen one or two advocating support of Israel and their right to the holy land irrespective of who now loves here because it is in the bible that they have a right to it-hardly surprising when you recall who wrote it in the first place.

http://www.patrobertson.com/Speeches/IsraelLauder.asp

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/1010-02.htm

In Israel and palestine it is extremists on both sides that have acted to try and prevent compromise. The israelis refused to talk to moderate palestinians leaving room for arafat to gain influence, by the same token arafat did his best to keep moderate voices silenced.

That's why you have israeli settlers refusing to leave the ocupied territories, they seem to want to go to war to keep the land. Most moderate israelis just want peace and would make the concessions to get it. That's why you keep getting suicide bombers-the instigators know it inflames the situation. People who hate are not capable of rational thought.

The more extreme christian fundamentalists seem to be a small but active group just like islamic fundamentalists, both would impose their views on others if given half a chance.

http://www.patrobertson.com/newscomment ... ertson.asp

Tell me what is the difference between an islamic terrorist and a christian fire bombing an abortion clinic? Both use violence for their ends and feel justified because of their faith and the lives thus lost are somehow less worthy than their own. Both want to destroy a way of life they do not approve of. Both do it for religious reasons.

http://www.alternet.org/story/18259

Maybe there is a case for a secular prayer-Dear God from the religious preserve me.

Incidentally i live in a country where the religious right are almost non-existent except as a fringe element. Sectarianism, now that's a different matter.
Jives
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Is it hard to come out as an atheist?

Post by Jives »

Suresh Gupta wrote: These self appointed protectors of religion are its worst enemy.


Hi Suresh! It's good to see you again! What a great line! I wish i had written that! And how true it is!

What's more, from what I can tell, most of the world's religions preach love and acceptance of your fellow man, yet every extremist zealot acts just the opposite!

Don't they realize by acting that way, they're not only being hypocritical, but disrespecting their OWN religion?!!!:(
All the world's a stage and the men and women merely players...Shakespeare
Jives
Posts: 3741
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:00 pm

Is it hard to come out as an atheist?

Post by Jives »

gmc wrote: Tell me what is the difference between an islamic terrorist and a christian fire bombing an abortion clinic?


Not a thing! Both have lost sight of what their religion really means and both can be considered heretics for their actions.
All the world's a stage and the men and women merely players...Shakespeare
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Clint
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Is it hard to come out as an atheist?

Post by Clint »

To equate contemporary Christian extremism with Muslim extremism is to admit bias.

Yes a nutcase blew up an abortion clinic and a few applauded what he did. The fact is that most Christians, including nearly all Fundamental Christians were appalled and spoke out strongly against his actions. It was an isolated incident and not a pattern as implied. Islamic Terrorists are not only supported by many within Islam but they have been supported by Islamic States. Saddam, for instance, paid the families of suicide bombers for the heroic martyrdom of their child.

Christians do believe suicide is a sin and also believe that murder is a sin. Christians believe, as Yeshua taught, that the authority appointed over us (government) is to be obeyed. In a free society we have the right to influence that government and we attempt to do so. Attempting to persuade the government to abolish abortion is the right thing to do, just like encouraging government to deal harshly with murderers like the one that blew up the clinic is the right thing to do.

Many Christians support Israel. It is a logical thing to do. Israel holds the roots of our faith. Jerusalem is, to many of us, the Holy City. Muslims turn their back on Jerusalem and turn to Mecca when they pray. Jerusalem is only interesting to them because of their hate for Jews and their belief that Jews existing in Israel is blight on “their” land. Israel is about 1/6 the size of Oregon.

Extreme Islam isn’t striking out against Christians and Jews alone. Remember the statues of Buddha? They are fighting their neighbors all over the world, carrying out Mohammed’s theology of destroying the nearest enemy first.

Neither Judaism nor Christianity teaches that the Muslim should be destroyed. However, Islam’s Koran teaches that the Christian and the Jew are to be destroyed and names them both specifically.

Islam (the Koran) equates Yeshua with Mohammed, calling him a prophet. Yeshua (Jesus) didn’t come with an army but Mohammed did. Yeshua taught love, compassion and mercy as the means by which others should be drawn to faith in him. Mohammed taught that you wipe out the infidel if he won’t convert.

Contemporary Christian “extremists”, as distasteful as their rhetoric is, cannot be compared to the organized calculating murders on the fringes of Islam.
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
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