Making a list and checking it twice

Post by **spot** » Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:47 pm

tude dog;1516220 wrote: Whatever gave you the idea it is the job of the President of the United States to unite the World?

Whatever is it about the job that persuades Presidents of the United States to attempt to control the World? It's like watching a succession of incompetent Bond villains repeatedly screw up their plans for global domination.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:32 pm

LarsMac;1516221 wrote: Suppose we have a public referendum and take a vote to see how the American people really think about the idea before claiming that such a thing is the "expressed desire of the American People"?

On another thread, I posted this.

Re: Trump restarts Middle East conflict

In 1995 United States Congress passed the Jerusalem Embassy Act.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_Embassy_Act

Past Presidents US Embassy To Jerusalem | The Daily Caller

As much as I loathe President Trump and am reluctant to give him credit for things I like, moving the embassy gets two thumbs up!

Name those three presidents, please.

And, name the other countries countries who have their embassies in Jerusalem.[/url]

I have no idea of what, if any nations have embassies in Jerusalem.

LarsMac;1516221 wrote: I'd actually like to hear some rational arguments for moving our embassy to Jerusalem. Even irrational arguments might be interesting.

Uh, like respect for our own law?

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:36 pm

Bryn Mawr;1516222 wrote: This isn't asking for an equal voice - it's demanding that everyone else parrots your voice.

So he's undiplomatic. I don't like it, but he just says aloud what other do behind closed doors.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:27 pm

tude dog;1516220 wrote: Whatever gave you the idea it is the job of the President of the United States to unite the World?

Nothing and no-one. He's done a remarkable job of it nonetheless...

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:44 pm

LarsMac;1516221 wrote: Suppose we have a public referendum and take a vote to see how the American people really think about the idea before claiming that such a thing is the "expressed desire of the American People"?

Name those three presidents, please.

And, name the other countries who have their embassies in Jerusalem.

I'd actually like to hear some rational arguments for moving our embassy to Jerusalem. Even irrational arguments might be interesting.

Everybody knows the answer to that, but it got me to think.

Does anybody have embassies in Israel?

Embassies and Consulates in Israel

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:47 pm

Clodhopper;1516230 wrote: Nothing and no-one. He's done a remarkable job of it nonetheless...

I would expect nothing less from any president.

Post by **LarsMac** » Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:29 pm

tude dog;1516231 wrote: Everybody knows the answer to that, but it got me to think.

Does anybody have embassies in Israel?

Embassies and Consulates in Israel

OK, so an act of Congress is the expressed desire of the American people. Recent discussions might suggest that is not necessarily the case.

Clinton pushed the task off to Bush, who pushed it off to Obama, who then left it to Trump to do something with it.

There has been much weight put on the part about Jerusalem being an undivided city.

How "undivided" can the city actually be when half residents of the city cannot claim citizenship?

An interesting point of view:

why Jerusalem is not capital of Israel

magentaflame · Post by **magentaflame** » Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:33 pm

spot;1516225 wrote: Whatever is it about the job that persuades Presidents of the United States to attempt to control the World? It's like watching a succession of incompetent Bond villains repeatedly screw up their plans for global domination.

That has got to be the most humorous thing youve ever said on this forum....cause its true. But whats really funny is patriotism of the American people......because of the collective interpretation of that if their government controls the world....then they do too.

Personally i believe they watch to many john wayne films...but anywho

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:09 am

`Anybody would think Trumps is trying to wind up Muslims.

Post by **spot** » Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:15 am

tude dog;1516231 wrote: Everybody knows the answer to that, but it got me to think.

Does anybody have embassies in Israel?

Embassies and Consulates in Israel

Good list and it has the exact answer. - those two exemplars of democracy and justice, Bolivia and Paraguay, and nobody else. (You're looking for a dialing code of 02 which isn't a consulate)

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:44 am

Foreign Aid when applied to Natural Emergencies is one thing, and should be expected of all civilised countries, but I believe that giving aid to countries such as India, who have their own Space Program, and North Korea, with their notorious Nuclear Arms straegies is abominable. Of course there are the claims that the aid goes to things like Education & Hospitals which wouldn't otherwise be funded by the Government. Well, of course they wouldn't. They have a budget that has been ring fenced by other countries. They have no further responsibility to bother with such things. It's much like Jacob Rees-Moggs statement that he finds Food Banks "Uplifting", as it demonstrates how generous & Community spirited the General Public are. However, while the Public are providing this sefety net, from the goodness of their hearts, then it takes the pressure off of the Government to take care of things for themselves, and makes funds available for much more important things like giving tax breaks to the mega rich, and for providing duck houses on MP's expenses.

Post by **spot** » Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:26 am

FourPart;1516263 wrote: North Korea, with their notorious Nuclear Arms straegies is abominable.You think there's an aid budget somewhere outside of North Korea which provides aid to North Korea in 2017? Whose is it?

magentaflame · Post by **magentaflame** » Sat Dec 23, 2017 1:30 pm

They arrested a south korean man here, only two days ago for arms dealing and raising funds for NK.

magentaflame · Post by **magentaflame** » Sat Dec 23, 2017 1:34 pm

so trump actually believes he can blackmail the world?

And. His rep to the UN repeats the threat at the UN...

What the hell do they think they are doing?

They just threatened the world!

Why isnt he impeached yet?

Post by **spot** » Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:20 pm

magentaflame;1516292 wrote: They arrested a south korean man here, only two days ago for arms dealing and raising funds for NK.

Then he was, surely, an agent of North Korea. He was not an aid agency.

Post by **spot** » Mon Dec 25, 2017 7:32 am

spot;1516207 wrote: Those who lined up with the US and Israel were Guatemala, Honduras, the Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Nauru, Palau and Togo.

And news is just in that "Guatemala says it plans to move the country's embassy in Israel to Jerusalem". Who knows, Honduras may follow suit.

The Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Nauru, Palau and Togo cannot move their embassies to Jerusalem since they have no embassy in Israel able to be moved, something which no doubt affords them a measure of relief.

Currently there are no embassies in Jerusalem, it's more than ten years since the last one moved out in protest.

Post by **LarsMac** » Mon Dec 25, 2017 7:44 am

Guatemala is a right wing, Christian fundy nation who relies on Israel for much of their arms and police equipment to maintain control of their population.

They will do whatever Trump and Netanyahu demand of them.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:07 am

magentaflame;1516293 wrote: so trump actually believes he can blackmail the world?

And. His rep to the UN repeats the threat at the UN...

What the hell do they think they are doing?

I don't think the word blackmail applies here.

magentaflame;1516293 wrote: They just threatened the world!

Sounding like a snowflake, hysterical.

magentaflame;1516293 wrote: Why isnt he impeached yet?

Perhaps because there is no provision to impeach a president because you don't like his policies?

I don't see a threat when somebody says they are not going to GIVE away money.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Mon Dec 25, 2017 12:14 pm

LarsMac;1516238 wrote: OK, so an act of Congress is the expressed desire of the American people. Recent discussions might suggest that is not necessarily the case.

Clinton pushed the task off to Bush, who pushed it off to Obama, who then left it to Trump to do something with it.

There has been much weight put on the part about Jerusalem being an undivided city. How "undivided" can the city actually be when half residents of the city cannot claim citizenship?

It is an unfortunate situation. Hopefully, with time it will resolve itself.

LarsMac;1516238 wrote: An interesting point of view:

why Jerusalem is not capital of Israel

International community position

Under the 1947 UN Partition Plan to divide historical Palestine between Jewish and Arab states, Jerusalem was granted special status and was meant to be placed under international sovereignty and control.

Uh huh, , ,

What do we learn from rehashing history? It has been argued over and over.

What a shock that Israel choose Jerusalem their capital. It would do everybody well to understand that it is and will remain the capital.

Post by **LarsMac** » Mon Dec 25, 2017 1:07 pm

tude dog;1516361 wrote: It is an unfortunate situation. Hopefully, with time it will resolve itself.

Uh huh, , ,

What do we learn from rehashing history? It has been argued over and over.

What a shock that Israel choose Jerusalem their capital. It would do everybody well to understand that it is and will remain the capital.

The whole story of Modern Israel about rehashed History.

Without the history, the entire region is just a backwater neighborhood, with no useful place in the modern world.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Mon Dec 25, 2017 1:45 pm

LarsMac;1516364 wrote: The whole story of Modern Israel about rehashed History.

Without the history, the entire region is just a backwater neighborhood, with no useful place in the modern world.

Start with Jerusalem was granted special status and was meant to be placed under international sovereignty and control.

Yea, international sovereignty, whatever that means.

Where do we begin and end with the unfathomable exploration of truths, half-truths, and lies?

Me thinks it is difficult enough to understand our present situation without pretending to present some sort of understanding of history that can be agreed upon.

Nobody can agree just what the present situation is, much less agree on anything else.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Mon Dec 25, 2017 1:54 pm

tude dog;1516360 wrote: I don't think the word blackmail applies here.

Sounding like a snowflake, hysterical.

Perhaps because there is no provision to impeach a president because you don't like his policies?

I don't see a threat when somebody says they are not going to GIVE away money.

In what way is it not blackmail? He has threatened to cut funding to any country that does not vote the way he's telling them to - and no, it's not a threat to say that I won't give you $x but it is a threat to say that you will cut an ongoing line of funding that a country has come to rely on.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:48 am

spot;1516277 wrote: You think there's an aid budget somewhere outside of North Korea which provides aid to North Korea in 2017? Whose is it?
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/88105 ... s-campaign

Post by **spot** » Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:55 am

Golly.

I don't see it claiming there's been any UK aid to North Korea in 2017 but it's as full of slimy innuendo as one invariably expects from the Express.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Tue Dec 26, 2017 12:02 pm

It's not just the Express, though.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/15/worl ... n-aid.html

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Tue Dec 26, 2017 12:52 pm

Bryn Mawr;1516368 wrote: In what way is it not blackmail? He has threatened to cut funding to any country that does not vote the way he's telling them to - and no, it's not a threat to say that I won't give you $x but it is a threat to say that you will cut an ongoing line of funding that a country has come to rely on.

Until this morning I don't believe I ever heard it used in that manner. When I heard it I thought of you.

In my defense, I was ready to use several dictionary references I looked up. So to double check I found this, URBAN DICTIONARY a source I usually ignore.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:30 am

tude dog;1516366 wrote: Start with Jerusalem was granted special status and was meant to be placed under international sovereignty and control.

Yea, international sovereignty, whatever that means.

Where do we begin and end with the unfathomable exploration of truths, half-truths, and lies?

Me thinks it is difficult enough to understand our present situation without pretending to present some sort of understanding of history that can be agreed upon.

Nobody can agree just what the present situation is, much less agree on anything else.

People study history and can agree on quite a lot. After all, just in this country we have records going back 1500 years and archaeology is providing a wealth of information about history and pre-history (usually taken as a time before there are written records so it varies from place to place) so people have thought about it a lot for a long time and built on previous thinking. The result is we have a pretty good idea of European and Middle Eastern history in general outline and more detail is filled in every year. There are constant minor revisions but the basic outline is pretty clear.

You DO however have unethical historians, misguided historians, or just plain bad people who misuse history for their own ends. Both far right and far left right tend to create a version of history that suits their political beliefs first and the evidence second and only where it suits. Thus we have Soviet History which put the interests of the Revolution first and proceeded on the basic assumption that everything led to the Revolution as Marx said; or Fascist history which seeks to glorify the Chosen People and blame someone else (traditionally the Jews where available +any unpopular and opposition groups of the moment) for being responsible for them not leading the world.

The history of the study of history at reputable Universities for the last fifty years has been the shedding of ideological glasses, I would say. Decent modern historians try to look at the world with minimal interference from our modern preconceptions. Whig history is dead - there is no longer any idea of the inevitability of human progress and historians have got much better at taking into account the preconceptions of the times they study. The result is a much better understanding of how and why things happened, though not at all a complete one.

Beware of any historian making moral judgements. You don't have to ignore everything they say - but you have to be aware of that person's own bias.

edit: I would not be at all surprised if it turned out that modern efforts to study history without preconceptions are connected to the evolution of psychology as a science.

edit edit: There is nothing new under the Sun. So kudos to all the Space Agencies, especially NASA.

Post by **LarsMac** » Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:03 am

tude dog;1516393 wrote: Until this morning I don't believe I ever heard it used in that manner. When I heard it I thought of you.

In my defense, I was ready to use several dictionary references I looked up. So to double check I found this, URBAN DICTIONARY a source I usually ignore.

Never held much confidence in the Urban Dictionary.

Though I reckon it has its uses in today's ever evolving languages.

However from what I found the - The term blackmail originally denoted a payment made by English persons residing along the border of Scotland to influential Scottish chieftains in exchange for protection from thieves and marauders.

The more modern legal term is kind of synonymous to that original definition - Basically, any form of demanding action or payment from someone by threat of some form of unpleasant retaliatory action.

The Trumper's threat of withholding previously committed financial assistance to those who do not fall in line certainly fits that bill.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:35 pm

LarsMac;1516414 wrote: Never held much confidence in the Urban Dictionary.

Though I reckon it has its uses in today's ever evolving languages.

However from what I found the - The term blackmail originally denoted a payment made by English persons residing along the border of Scotland to influential Scottish chieftains in exchange for protection from thieves and marauders.

The more modern legal term is kind of synonymous to that original definition - Basically, any form of demanding action or payment from someone by threat of some form of unpleasant retaliatory action.

The Trumper's threat of withholding previously committed financial assistance to those who do not fall in line certainly fits that bill.

Well, I am glad we cleared that up.

Looks to me the UN's biggest business is blackmail. Ineffective, but all the same.

2017 U.N. General Assembly Resolutions Singling Out Israel – Texts, Votes, Analysis

Or call it a gang rape.

Post by **LarsMac** » Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:18 pm

tude dog;1516416 wrote: Well, I am glad we cleared that up.

Looks to me the UN's biggest business is blackmail. Ineffective, but all the same.

2017 U.N. General Assembly Resolutions Singling Out Israel – Texts, Votes, Analysis

Or call it a gang rape.

I am fascinated with the story of Israel and the Palestinian people. From the start the whole project was doomed to failure.

The Europeans never really expected the state of Israel to survive so long.

They put the Zionists in a an unwinnable situation, the partitioning of the Palestine left them with an region that could not possibly be defended. The expectation was that the Arabs would wipe them out quickly and the "Jewish problem" would be dealt with once and for all.

The Arab nations declared that any Palestinians who stayed and cooperated with the Israelis would be left abandoned and not welcome in any Arab/Muslim nation. So all the Palestinians in the new state left their homes and waited for the Arabs to wipe the interlopers off their land.

Well, We all know how well THAT went.

So, the Israelis survived the initial onslaught, and a few more after that one. The Palestinians were abandoned by their "Arab Brothers" and Israeli and Palestinian have no choice but to learn to live together.

And yet we meddle in the process at every step.

Wandrin · Post by **Wandrin** » Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:09 pm

I must confess that I have often wondered how things might have worked out differently if England had not kept Palestine from becoming a state in 1918 when all of the others in the Middle East were given that status.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:49 pm

LarsMac;1516418 wrote: I am fascinated with the story of Israel and the Palestinian people. From the start the whole project was doomed to failure.

The Europeans never really expected the state of Israel to survive so long.

They put the Zionists in a an unwinnable situation, the partitioning of the Palestine left them with an region that could not possibly be defended. The expectation was that the Arabs would wipe them out quickly and the "Jewish problem" would be dealt with once and for all.

The Arab nations declared that any Palestinians who stayed and cooperated with the Israelis would be left abandoned and not welcome in any Arab/Muslim nation. So all the Palestinians in the new state left their homes and waited for the Arabs to wipe the interlopers off their land.

Well, We all know how well THAT went.

So, the Israelis survived the initial onslaught, and a few more after that one. The Palestinians were abandoned by their "Arab Brothers" and Israeli and Palestinian have no choice but to learn to live together.

And yet we meddle in the process at every step.

Do you have any documentation for that? From my reading it was more like they were pushed out by the likes or Irgun, the Stern Gang and Haganah with acts like the Deir Yassin massacre aimed specifically at terrorising the Arabs into leaving.

I would, truly, be interested if you have as, like you, I'm fascinated by the causes of today's problems in the area.

Post by **LarsMac** » Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:00 pm

Bryn Mawr;1516502 wrote: Do you have any documentation for that? From my reading it was more like they were pushed out by the likes or Irgun, the Stern Gang and Haganah with acts like the Deir Yassin massacre aimed specifically at terrorising the Arabs into leaving.

I would, truly, be interested if you have as, like you, I'm fascinated by the causes of today's problems in the area.

I will dig through what I have. But it is a fair certainty that the majority of Arab Palestinians would not have simply fled the area because of terrorists threats.

This article does cover many of the details, but does not specifically state what I wrote. That information came to me while taking part in discussions with Palestinian and Israeli students during college days, many years ago.

I may have to make a trip to the library to find the supporting document

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:08 pm

LarsMac;1516515 wrote: I will dig through what I have. But it is a fair certainty that the majority of Arab Palestinians would not have simply fled the area because of terrorists threats.

This article does cover many of the details, but does not specifically state what I wrote. That information came to me while taking part in discussions with Palestinian and Israeli students during college days, many years ago.

I may have to make a trip to the library to find the supporting document

Thanks, I would appreciate your taking the trouble.

Post by **LarsMac** » Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:39 pm

Bryn Mawr;1516517 wrote: Thanks, I would appreciate your taking the trouble.

oops! I meant to include a link:

History and overview of the Palestinian refugees

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:05 am

LarsMac;1516522 wrote: oops! I meant to include a link:

History and overview of the Palestinian refugees

Interesting and there's a lot in here I need to follow up but it is a one sided view - for example, whilst there is mention of Haganah "leaning" on the Arab population and persuading them to leave there is no mention of the less polite activities of the Stern Gang and Irgun with the same aim. It does need to be balanced with an equivalent document from the Palestinian point of view.

Even more interesting is the repeated insistence that the Palestinian Arabs were to be equal partners in the new state, a promise that was enshrined in the original constitution of Israel. A lot of the today's problems would not exist if they'd kept that promise.

Post by **LarsMac** » Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:39 am

Bryn Mawr;1516548 wrote: Interesting and there's a lot in here I need to follow up but it is a one sided view - for example, whilst there is mention of Haganah "leaning" on the Arab population and persuading them to leave there is no mention of the less polite activities of the Stern Gang and Irgun with the same aim. It does need to be balanced with an equivalent document from the Palestinian point of view.

Even more interesting is the repeated insistence that the Palestinian Arabs were to be equal partners in the new state, a promise that was enshrined in the original constitution of Israel. A lot of the today's problems would not exist if they'd kept that promise.

Almost everything we find written about any significant historical event will be slanted one way or another.

I did see some mention of the Stern and Irgun in there.

Yes, both sides promised one thing at the signing and both sides failed to take into account much of the reality. What I said in earlier post about the Arab League threatening Palestinians who remained and cooperated seems to be missing from most documents available, but several Palestinians who claimed to have been there told us of it. They also mentioned that things may have gone much more smoothly had the British Administration remained to assist in the transitions.

But of course, now, it is necessary to put all of the past behind, and the Israeli and Arab residents of the area need to sort this out, and find a peaceful solution. The meddling from foreign interests must be minimized.

I don't see the Christian Right cooperating on that front.