The fear of this site being religious

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Mickiel
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Post by Mickiel »

FourPart;1515863 wrote: Easter has nothing to do with Jesus in the first place. It is the feast of Oesther - Pagan Goddess of New Life. In the same way that Christmas is actually the feast of Yule - the Winter Solstice. Both of them Pagan festivals hijacked by the Romans.




Those are true, I agree, notice;

Are Holidays like Christmas and Easter pagan or Christian?.
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Post by Mickiel »

Ted;1515858 wrote: Mickiel there are only a few cases in the NT where salvation refers to an afterlife. The rest are about liberation from bondage here on earth for many people. I do not accept the "original sin theory of Augustine. "God saw all that he had created and found it to be very good". That is original blessing. Atonement theology is for many scholars a non starter. It is a human concept. I also hear in the forum that nothing cannot come out of nothing. That is contrary to quantum theory. Atoms apparently wink in and out of existence on a regular basis.


Well if it helps, here's 34 more after life verses.

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Afterlife

Also the atoms cannot have originated by popping out of nothing, its impossible; something cannot bring itself into existence , since it must exist in order to bring itself into existence. Its just that simple in my view.

Atonement is a Godly idea, first revealed in the old testament holy days.
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Post by FourPart »

Mickiel;1515884 wrote: Well if it helps, here's 34 more after life verses.

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Afterlife

Also the atoms cannot have originated by popping out of nothing, its impossible; something cannot bring itself into existence , since it must exist in order to bring itself into existence. Its just that simple in my view.

Atonement is a Godly idea, first revealed in the old testament holy days.


Yet when challenged with the self same arguement, Creationists use the defence that God brought himself into existence. In other words, "It's impossible for everyone else, but when I want it to fit with what I want, it's the only answer & is the absolute truth".
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Post by gmc »

Mickiel;1515881 wrote: Those are true, I agree, notice;

Are Holidays like Christmas and Easter pagan or Christian?.


Pagan in origin the christian church decided to claim ownership since they were unable to stop people celebrating the festivals all of which occir at times of the year when seasons are changing. Throughout it's history the christian church has been more inclined to ban christmas than celebrate it. Indeed the puritans tried to ban jolloty - laugh and the devil gets in mankind is put on earth to suffer and die then go to heaven. Are you really so ignorant that you need to ask.

Atonement is a Godly idea, first revealed in the old testament holy days.


Are you trying to claim you have actually read the bible now?
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Post by Mickiel »

FourPart;1515888 wrote: Yet when challenged with the self same arguement, Creationists use the defence that God brought himself into existence. In other words, "It's impossible for everyone else, but when I want it to fit with what I want, it's the only answer & is the absolute truth".




Well I understand and agree with you here. It is an oxymoronic kind of response. We use the same reasoning; right now, I see no way out of this standoff. We both see what we see. It barrows down to simple things , such as " Like." I like the creationist view on our human origins. I like what I have read in scripture that reveals God actually did create parts of himself, but it stops there, it did not say he created his own whole self. So its really just a mystery, we just don't really know.

But I still , so far, believe that something cannot bring itself into existence, since it must exist to bring itself into existence. And I think, from what I know, that this simply cannot apply to a God. I mean were talking about a God; A being that created us and this entire universe. Man, a being like that can pull off incredible things; how it got into existence, I just don't know.

Job 36:26, " God is Great, we know him not!"
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Post by Mickiel »

gmc;1515891 wrote: Pagan in origin the christian church decided to claim ownership since they were unable to stop people celebrating the festivals all of which occir at times of the year when seasons are changing. Throughout it's history the christian church has been more inclined to ban christmas than celebrate it. Indeed the puritans tried to ban jolloty - laugh and the devil gets in mankind is put on earth to suffer and die then go to heaven. Are you really so ignorant that you need to ask.



Are you trying to claim you have actually read the bible now?




Look if you question my reading the bible, I see no reason to have speaks with you.
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Post by gmc »

Mickiel;1515900 wrote: Look if you question my reading the bible, I see no reason to have speaks with you.


I'm only going from previous threads when you claimed that your belief in god came from reading the bible but it shortly bacame clear you hadn't actually read it. I still dont think you have you're just using the last thing somebody told you. Don't worry I don't particularly want to discourse with you you're incapablew of having a rational discussion. Debate about religion is pointless unless you can actually come up with a valid reason why you believe in god. Even a simple but I can't explain it I just do is better than the nonsense you come out with.
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Post by JacksDad »

Sorry. Wrong room. I was looking for an argument.
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Post by gmc »

JacksDad;1515931 wrote: Sorry. Wrong room. I was looking for an argument.


That requires thought something you tend not to get from the religious.

Cricket though what a waste of space all that is happening in this country and there are constant interruptions to report what is happening in the ashes.:-5:-5
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Post by Mickiel »

gmc;1515916 wrote: I'm only going from previous threads when you claimed that your belief in god came from reading the bible but it shortly bacame clear you hadn't actually read it. I still dont think you have you're just using the last thing somebody told you. Don't worry I don't particularly want to discourse with you you're incapablew of having a rational discussion. Debate about religion is pointless unless you can actually come up with a valid reason why you believe in god. Even a simple but I can't explain it I just do is better than the nonsense you come out with.




Hey look, if you feel these ways about me, then why come on this thread? Why? I don't bother you. I don't need to bother you. And I myself, if I thought a person was speaking nonsense , I would ignore them..

I actually believe in all that I write, and I do my best. It is unfortunate that you see no value in it.

Peace on your journey.
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Post by Ted »

Mickiel along with Borg perhaps you should read about quantum physics (Amit Goswami)
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Post by JacksDad »

Lol! (oops. I meant the cricket comment)
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Post by Mickiel »

Ted;1515987 wrote: Mickiel along with Borg perhaps you should read about quantum physics (Amit Goswami)




I have read Quantum Physics and I think its somewhat interesting, but boring. I guess because its so drawn out and seemingly endless in its informative data. That's the only struggle I have with science, its just so much data; hard to cover it all. Biblical studies are not like that. I like studies that excite my consciousness, and thrill my imagination; which some science does to me. I think science is a good study, probably under rated but still relevant.

And I know biblical studies are vastly under rated. Knowledge is becoming under rated, and so is reading books, which I think is a shame.
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Post by Mickiel »

The fear of this site being perceived as religious. Yes, if there happens to be two or three religious threads on the daily forum, some don't like that, as if they don't want the incoming public to read false impressions of what material dominates the boards. As if religion has no right to; or as if the topic of Spiritual things is a taboo or like the subject is a Dracula that will drain the sites reputation.

Its just a popular human interest; God always has been popular. Its unavoidable.
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Post by FourPart »

The fact that there is so much data to absorb that that all the data we have amounts to less than a pinprick in the Galaxy. The Religious believe they have all the data they need in a single book - and even then very few who profess to defend it even know any more than a few select cherry picked clips.
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Post by Ted »

Mickiel my interests are so broad that it is almost impossible to get into any one of them. However I do my best to read and study what comes up from science to religion. Religion has been around as long as man and will continue to be around. I guess I'm an because I do accept the vanities of all of the great faiths. There have also been atheists around d as long as man has been here as well. There are criticisms on all sides and Christianity does seem to many to change slowly if at all. However it does cchange. Some religious folks do seem to live in the ancient past. On the other hand personally I find atheists as evangelical as the fundamentalist evangelical church folks. There are many good writings that should be added to the sacred texsts.
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Post by Mickiel »

FourPart;1516002 wrote: The fact that there is so much data to absorb that that all the data we have amounts to less than a pinprick in the Galaxy. The Religious believe they have all the data they need in a single book - and even then very few who profess to defend it even know any more than a few select cherry picked clips.




I am not against those who " Cherry Pick" things, because I consider it fair game; if its there to pick, then pick it.
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Post by Mickiel »

Ted;1516006 wrote: Mickiel my interests are so broad that it is almost impossible to get into any one of them. However I do my best to read and study what comes up from science to religion. Religion has been around as long as man and will continue to be around. I guess I'm an because I do accept the vanities of all of the great faiths. There have also been atheists around d as long as man has been here as well. There are criticisms on all sides and Christianity does seem to many to change slowly if at all. However it does cchange. Some religious folks do seem to live in the ancient past. On the other hand personally I find atheists as evangelical as the fundamentalist evangelical church folks. There are many good writings that should be added to the sacred texsts.


Yes my interest are broad as well, knowledge is just flowing around every where. Its a wonderful time in which to learn.
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Post by Mickiel »

Mickiel;1516010 wrote: I am not against those who " Cherry Pick" things, because I consider it fair game; if its there to pick, then pick it.




Cherry picking is not as bad as many try to make it seem. What's wrong with picking things which are there to pick? What's wrong with gathering up multiple things which support what you are saying?
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Post by Ted »

I have a problem with folks cherry picking and using the material out of context. That is not support. I may be a problem of trying to make something say what is not really there. It seems to me that is a problem that Pahu has.
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Post by Mickiel »

Ted;1516310 wrote: I have a problem with folks cherry picking and using the material out of context. That is not support. I may be a problem of trying to make something say what is not really there. It seems to me that is a problem that Pahu has.


Well using material out of context makes it a problem, not cherry picking. The way we pick material is not wrong, but twisting material out of context is wrong.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Mickiel;1516314 wrote: Well using material out of context makes it a problem, not cherry picking. The way we pick material is not wrong, but twisting material out of context is wrong.


Selecting the bits that support your argument and downplaying or ignoring the bits that don't (i.e. cherry picking) is by definition distorting the truth and, therefore, a form of lying.
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Post by Mickiel »

Bryn Mawr;1516472 wrote: Selecting the bits that support your argument and downplaying or ignoring the bits that don't (i.e. cherry picking) is by definition distorting the truth and, therefore, a form of lying.


I disagree, if the bits you select are true, then ignoring other things do not turn that truth into a lie.

If I am writing a speech, then I will use only those things which support my subject

When I am in a debate, I'll do the same thing, use only those chosen facts that support the topic

This thing called " Cherry Picking", is a distortion; its an old tactic that is worn out, like a tiresome excuse. In my view, the host or the writer has every right to use whatever he wants to; if its there to pick, then I say pick it!
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Post by Ted »

If we look at Numbers 31 we see that God apparently condones war crimes.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Mickiel;1516477 wrote: I disagree, if the bits you select are true, then ignoring other things do not turn that truth into a lie.

If I am writing a speech, then I will use only those things which support my subject

When I am in a debate, I'll do the same thing, use only those chosen facts that support the topic

This thing called " Cherry Picking", is a distortion; its an old tactic that is worn out, like a tiresome excuse. In my view, the host or the writer has every right to use whatever he wants to; if its there to pick, then I say pick it!


If you pick items that support you then fine, if you ignore or suppress items that show that you are wrong and still continue to argue your case then you are lying. That, to me, is cherry picking.
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Post by Ted »

If a premise is faulty then your logic falls apart.
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Post by Mickiel »

Bryn Mawr;1516503 wrote: If you pick items that support you then fine, if you ignore or suppress items that show that you are wrong and still continue to argue your case then you are lying. That, to me, is cherry picking.




No, no , no, that is not cherry picking, that is ignorance. In my view your not defining cherry picking, your defining ignorance, and calling it cherry picking. If I have five terms to pick and I choose three of them, and they all are inter related, that in my view is cherry picking. If I am arguing a point, and I have five examples, two of which support my point, three of which do not, and I choose the two that favor my point, that is what you are calling cherry picking. And I am saying A person has the right to do that. Now if I choose a term that is incorrect, and I falsely represent it to be true, that is lying or ignorance, its not cherry picking.

Cherry picking is not wrong, you are just convinced that it is because of the way your mentality defines it.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Mickiel;1516569 wrote: No, no , no, that is not cherry picking, that is ignorance. In my view your not defining cherry picking, your defining ignorance, and calling it cherry picking. If I have five terms to pick and I choose three of them, and they all are inter related, that in my view is cherry picking. If I am arguing a point, and I have five examples, two of which support my point, three of which do not, and I choose the two that favor my point, that is what you are calling cherry picking. And I am saying A person has the right to do that. Now if I choose a term that is incorrect, and I falsely represent it to be true, that is lying or ignorance, its not cherry picking.

Cherry picking is not wrong, you are just convinced that it is because of the way your mentality defines it.


What I am saying is that if the three points that do not support your point actively suggest that your point is wrong then you are lying, whatever you want to call it.
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Post by Mickiel »

Bryn Mawr;1516573 wrote: What I am saying is that if the three points that do not support your point actively suggest that your point is wrong then you are lying, whatever you want to call it.




Well I think I understand what you are saying. I think the person's mindset have to be taken into consideration. If I use the two facts that I " Believe to be true", and I dismiss the other three because I do not believe them to be true, I am then allowed to dismiss any factoid, " Or not pick those cherry's that I do not want in my dissertation. " This is not lying, even if my two facts are wrong, if I am not aware of them being wrong, then my intent is not to lie. If I " Know they are wrong", and I present them as if they are right, THEN that is a lie; do you follow that? If my mindset is deceptive, then my words are a lie. If my mindset is that I totally believe in my words, then my intent is not to lie.

I don't like people accusing me of cherry picking, in my view that is lame opposition. It's like accusing me of wearing the wrong shoes, I can pick whatever shoes I want to use.
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Post by Ahso! »

It's called lying by omission, Mickey. Choose whatever reading material you like https://www.google.com/search?q=lying+b ... el;1516597 wrote: Well I think I understand what you are saying. I think the person's mindset have to be taken into consideration.In other words, get ready for the following equivocations.Mickiel;1516597 wrote: If I use the two facts that I " Believe to be true", and I dismiss the other three because I do not believe them to be true,Belief has nothing to do with facts. For example, if it is raining nobody gives a sh1t whether or not you believe it's raining, and your silly belief only serves to expose foolishness.Mickiel;1516597 wrote: I am then allowed to dismiss any factoid, " Or not pick those cherry's that I do not want in my dissertation. " This is not lying, even if my two facts are wrong, if I am not aware of them being wrong, then my intent is not to lie. If I " Know they are wrong", and I present them as if they are right, THEN that is a lie; do you follow that? If my mindset is deceptive, then my words are a lie. If my mindset is that I totally believe in my words, then my intent is not to lie.Dunning-Kruger

Mickiel;1516597 wrote: I don't like people accusing me of cherry picking, in my view that is lame opposition. It's like accusing me of wearing the wrong shoes, I can pick whatever shoes I want to use.Unbelievable! No surprise that you would mistake an observation for an accusation.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Ahso!;1516598 wrote: It's called lying by omission, Mickey. Choose whatever reading material you like https://www.google.com/search?q=lying+b ... e&ie=UTF-8

In other words, get ready for the following equivocations.Belief has nothing to do with facts. For example, if it is raining nobody gives a sh1t whether or not you believe it's raining, and your silly belief only serves to expose foolishness.Dunning-Kruger

Unbelievable! No surprise that you would mistake an observation for an accusation.


That's OK when you're dealing with hard facts like "is it raining" but a lot of what we deal in here is opinion which is what I think Mickiel is referring to.

What we appear to have boiled down to is, if you ignore the three facts knowing that they disprove your argument then you are lying but if you ignore them believing that they are incorrect then that is valid?

I think I'd accept that position - if we had all the time in the world it would be nice to acknowledge them and show why you do not accept them but that is not often practical.
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Post by Ahso! »

Equivocations like Mickey's is the opinion that facts and beliefs are interchangeable, that's not okay, no matter how you cut it. My analogy cannot be dismissed because it cuts to the point. Doing so is an equivocation too.

ETA: I understand being patient with people getting to learn, however, what you're dealing with here is not just plain ignorance, this is ignorance due to cult brainwashing, which is a denial by design. That's a different animal.
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Post by Mickiel »

Ahso!;1516598 wrote: It's called lying by omission, Mickey. Choose whatever reading material you like https://www.google.com/search?q=lying+b ... ie=UTF-8In other words, get ready for the following equivocations.Belief has nothing to do with facts. For example, if it is raining nobody gives a sh1t whether or not you believe it's raining, and your silly belief only serves to expose foolishness.Dunning-Kruger

Unbelievable! No surprise that you would mistake an observation for an accusation.


Well I like your example and agree with it, if its raining, its just raining, belief has nothing to do with it. But in this section your in, General Religious discussion, belief is a whole relevant ball game. Belief takes on a differing meaning here. But I concede your point to be true. Belief has more power here than even some facts. I believe God in fact created humanity, that is not a scientific fact.
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Post by Mickiel »

Bryn Mawr;1516599 wrote: That's OK when you're dealing with hard facts like "is it raining" but a lot of what we deal in here is opinion which is what I think Mickiel is referring to.

What we appear to have boiled down to is, if you ignore the three facts knowing that they disprove your argument then you are lying but if you ignore them believing that they are incorrect then that is valid?

I think I'd accept that position - if we had all the time in the world it would be nice to acknowledge them and show why you do not accept them but that is not often practical.


Well I believe that belief has a differing meaning here in this section, this walk, this our reality of faith. Belief can incorporate and consume some facts here, others no. Telling the truth does not always deal in facts, here often faith or biblical expression is different than some hardcore traditional facts. But , as you say, that may take a lot more explaining which I do not wish to bore you with.

I agree with your final determination, somewhat. I mean I can see what your saying.

Religion has a life of its own, one has to know how to navigate it; I myself don't even agree with many " Religious facts", especially so called facts about God. And I certainly don't agree with " Certain Atheist facts about God"; so there is a natural gulf fixed between us. Or perhaps better stated, " Un natural."
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Post by Mickiel »

Ahso!;1516600 wrote: Equivocations like Mickey's is the opinion that facts and beliefs are interchangeable, that's not okay, no matter how you cut it. My analogy cannot be dismissed because it cuts to the point. Doing so is an equivocation too.

ETA: I understand being patient with people getting to learn, however, what you're dealing with here is not just plain ignorance, this is ignorance due to cult brainwashing, which is a denial by design. That's a different animal.




I do not dismiss it, I just have a few differing outlooks on it.
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Post by Ted »

It seems to me that science deals with the physical. Religious deals with an whole other aspect of life that science just cannot handle. They are two separate issues.
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Post by Mickiel »

Ted;1516926 wrote: It seems to me that science deals with the physical. Religious deals with an whole other aspect of life that science just cannot handle. They are two separate issues.




I whole heartedly agree!
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Post by gmc »

I believe God in fact created humanity, that is not a scientific fact.


If you cannot demonstrate the realitry of what you beleive it is not a fact it is something you believe. Faith is the belief in something without any evidence what you believe is real. Religion makes up a fantasy and then demends that everybody agrees with it and no one should question it. If fgod was actually real you would not need faith.

Well I believe that belief has a differing meaning here in this section, this walk, this our reality of faith.


If no one else agrees with you then the reality is purely in your own mind and has no validity to anyone else, it is not real. Believing in something does not make itb reality no matter how much you want it to be, you can't wish something in to existence unless you are a character in a fantasy novel.
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Post by Mickiel »

gmc;1516940 wrote: If you cannot demonstrate the realitry of what you beleive it is not a fact it is something you believe. Faith is the belief in something without any evidence what you believe is real. Religion makes up a fantasy and then demends that everybody agrees with it and no one should question it. If fgod was actually real you would not need faith.


I agree With much of this. I make no demands on people about what they believe or don't believe. And , you know, In my personal view, as I expand a little bit of what I have learned about God, I think his reality is more like fantasy ; I mean its surreal! Its just another experience that is in front of us and behind us. Trying to understand it to me, I mean my personal conscious belief, the evidence of God, some of it , is fantasy like. But it is also going to be a great eye opening time for us all.

We will see beings that are surreal, created by God and Christ; hey, these beings are going to be great iconoclastic beings who have lived with God for untold ages. To be able to see these Great beings ourselves, I think they will be more like comic book beings that human artist has conceived in their works. Nothing like we have really seen in this life. But I get inspired when I see the pictorial talent coming out of comic book artist, some of their conscious talent makes me think of the Kingdom of God and some of the beings that exist with God to serve him and Christ. Beings with wings and multiple heads that look like a Lion and a Bear- hey man ,if they walk toward me I would be scared and likely stunned into a frozen state for a few minutes.
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Post by Ted »

I just love when I have an experience that some psychologist tries to tell me the "truth" It was my experience and not hers or his. It was my experience and thus my interpretation. How can anyone in most cases tell someone else what they experienced: hate, altruism, love, humor, comedy, comfort both mental and physical, desires. etc.
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Post by Mickiel »

We can share a personal experience in an open manner if we wish; how we share does not change the experience.
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Post by Ted »

You are so correct on that one though some are not content to leave it there.
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Post by Ahso! »

Ted;1517063 wrote: I just love when I have an experience that some psychologist tries to tell me the "truth" It was my experience and not hers or his. It was my experience and thus my interpretation. How can anyone in most cases tell someone else what they experienced: hate, altruism, love, humor, comedy, comfort both mental and physical, desires. etc.How long have you been seeing a psychologist, Ted? And why?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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Mickiel
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The fear of this site being religious

Post by Mickiel »

Ted;1517120 wrote: You are so correct on that one though some are not content to leave it there.


Well we will help them see our points , as we begin to see theirs; and we will start a new age here of mutual understanding.

Hopefully we can see the beginning of fear being removed.
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Mickiel
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Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:28 am

The fear of this site being religious

Post by Mickiel »

Mickiel;1517142 wrote: Well we will help them see our points , as we begin to see theirs; and we will start a new age here of mutual understanding.

Hopefully we can see the beginning of fear being removed.




Fear goes away as facts begin to peek through. The subject of God need not be feared or snubbed; its a main horse to ride.
Ted
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The fear of this site being religious

Post by Ted »

Some become so narrow mined they think they have all the answers.. Our new clergy has a phd in astronomy and a phd in phisics. LOL.
gmc
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The fear of this site being religious

Post by gmc »

Ted;1517063 wrote: I just love when I have an experience that some psychologist tries to tell me the "truth" It was my experience and not hers or his. It was my experience and thus my interpretation. How can anyone in most cases tell someone else what they experienced: hate, altruism, love, humor, comedy, comfort both mental and physical, desires. etc.


That statement doesn't actually make any sense. If it's your experience of god for example then it's your experience and interpretation but it's not real for anyone else. What was the psychologist saying to you?

posted by mickiel

Well we will help them see our points , as we begin to see theirs; and we will start a new age here of mutual understanding.

Hopefully we can see the beginning of fear being removed.






You're the one that fears god because you believe there is one. It's bit hard to fear something that isn't actually real

posted by ted

Some become so narrow mined they think they have all the answers.. Our new clergy has a phd in astronomy and a phd in phisics. LOL.


I think you and ted come on here because you seek reassurance what you believe is actually real and find it by completely ignoring anything that might actually comfirm the doubts you have. Read the bible, like many atheists it was after reading it for myself I began on the road to being an atheist i.e. someone who does not think there is sufficient evidence to prove the existence of god. Mickiel for certain has not actually read the bible as he has demonstrated on several occasions. If it's proof of god, as thosew who believe in an inerrant bible would have us believe then he is at best insane at worst a sadistic torturer of mankind with the realtionship of god to man one of abuser and abused.

I can't prove there is no god but I don't have to as the onus is on the one making the claim that something exists to prove it's validity. If sonething exists you should be able to produce evidence for it. neither of you can all you can do is cloak yourselves in the invisible cloak of superior knowledge and understanding. Faith is belief in something without reason you don't have to prove yopur faith to anyone but the religious insist they have the moral right to interfere with the lives cof others and tell them how to live and what is right and wrong. Human rights and equality are secular concepts that even now the reigious try and curb. I like discussing religion and politics but when talking to someone that believes they are right and everyone else wrong sometiomes all you can do is extend them the tolerance they refuse others and not let them become too powerful.

Anyway you two are back on ignore at bleast for a wwhile.
Ted
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The fear of this site being religious

Post by Ted »

BS. To each his own.
gmc
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The fear of this site being religious

Post by gmc »

Ted;1517877 wrote: BS. To each his own.


Yes to each his own and because you live in a secular society you can belive and worship any way you want. Thank your imaginary friend that you don't live in a theocracy. All religion is a made up fantasy none of them have any basis in reality. God of the gaps, I can't explain why things happen god must have done it and his ways are mysterious.

Did you god create evil? If he didn't then he is not omnipotent as you believe. If he did then he's a sadistic manipulator playing with the humanity he made. In case you;re wondering i don't believe there is such a thing as evil it's just a convenient scapegoat to avoid thinking about why people do "evil" things. The holocaust was one of the greatest evils (for want of a better word) perpetrated in modern times. It was done in the name of god - one religious group persecuting another.
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Mickiel
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The fear of this site being religious

Post by Mickiel »

I do fear God in certain ways of fear. And I think its wise to do that.
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