Our government has made us ALL into thieves.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Our government has made us ALL into thieves.

Taxes on goods and services.

Governments have turned to taxing goods and services (GST), instead of taxing income to extract the funds they need from you and I to pay for their various programs. GST’s are regressive taxes, because as a person’s income decreases, his rate of tax increases.

In such a tax system, the less you earn, the more, as a percentage of your income, you pay into that tax system. For instance, if you earn $10,000 per year and pay a GST of 15%, you will pay $1,500 in tax. If you earn $20,000 per year, and buy the same amount of goods and services, you will pay the same $1,500 in tax, but as a percentage of your income, as compared to the poorer buyer, you will only pay ½ the amount of tax dollars, in terms of percentage of income. The higher your income, the less of a percentage of tax you will pay, as compared to those who earn less than you do.

That is why such goods and services tax are considered to be regressive taxes. They penalize the poor while benefiting the richer, on a sliding scale.

Poverty is the worst form of violence. – Ghandi

Each and every one of us is kicking those below us further into poverty thanks to our regressive GST tax system. The richer you are, the harder you are kicking the poor. Middle and lower income earners are not kicking the poorest as hard but we are getting our kicks in anyway.

The Golden Rule is considered by most to be the best moral rule that we know.

With our regressive GST tax system, we are doing the opposite of the Golden Rule by doing unto the poor what we would not want done to us if we are poor.

Should we all be proud of ourselves for doing violence to our poorer fellow countrymen?

Regards

DL

[FourPart]

I fail to see how that makes us all thieves when, in actual fact, it points out what we are already aware of, that it is the wealthy minority who are the thieves. The rest of the country are the victims of that theft.

[Mark Aspam]

FourPart;1495641 wrote: I fail to see how that makes us all thieves when, in actual fact, it points out what we are already aware of, that it is the wealthy minority who are the thieves. The rest of the country are the victims of that theft.I know virtually nothing about British taxation, other than the Beatles' lament:

"If five percent appears too small, be thankful I don't take it all, 'cause I'm the taxman..."



...which seems to claim that it's the rich who are being soaked.

In the USA we have graduated income tax and flat state and local sales tax. No VAT, though it has often been proposed and rejected.

[LarsMac]

Mark Aspam;1495672 wrote: I know virtually nothing about British taxation, other than the Beatles' lament:

"If five percent appears too small, be thankful I don't take it all, 'cause I'm the taxman..."



...which seems to claim that it's the rich who are being soaked.

In the USA we have graduated income tax and flat state and local sales tax. No VAT, though it has often been proposed and rejected.


Some US states have a fairly high rate on income tax, other have no income tax. But then some states have relatively high sales taxes. A tax based on income is theoretically more "fair" as it is based on your earnings, while Sales tax or a VAT can be rather unfair to the lower income folks. But, then, most sales taxes include exclusions for needed items, or tax refunds for lower income folks.

The OP is from Canada. I don't know much about how Canada taxes their people. Maybe they are not all that fair. But then there are folks who complain that ANY tax is an evil thing. They believe the gummint should pay for everything and not expect any recompense from the citizens.

[Mark Aspam]

LarsMac;1495673 wrote: But, then, most sales taxes include exclusions...Including exclusions is tricky.

Germany does have VAT, at the bottom of the receipt it gives a breakdown of what you have paid for the product and what is VAT.

I know nothing about German income tax because non-citizen foreign language teachers are exempt. Thank you, Germany, for eight years of tax-free living (except for the VAT)!

Germany does have a church tax, as I recall about 9% of income! You have to swear to God that you're an atheist to avoid paying it.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

FourPart;1495641 wrote: I fail to see how that makes us all thieves when, in actual fact, it points out what we are already aware of, that it is the wealthy minority who are the thieves. The rest of the country are the victims of that theft.


True that the super rich and our oligarch owners are to blame for their bought and paid for politicians putting the right legislation in place, --- but that does not take away from the fact that the general population is knowingly sticking it to those below them who pay more than they do as a % of income for GST's and VAT's.

For evil to grow, all good people need do is shut up and pay up.

Regards

DL

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Mark Aspam;1495672 wrote: I know virtually nothing about British taxation, other than the Beatles' lament:

"If five percent appears too small, be thankful I don't take it all, 'cause I'm the taxman..."



...which seems to claim that it's the rich who are being soaked.

In the USA we have graduated income tax and flat state and local sales tax. No VAT, though it has often been proposed and rejected.


Does this graph indicate to you that the rich are being soaked?

9 out of 10 Americans are completely wrong about this mind-blowing fact.

Regards

DL

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

LarsMac;1495673 wrote: Some US states have a fairly high rate on income tax, other have no income tax. But then some states have relatively high sales taxes. A tax based on income is theoretically more "fair" as it is based on your earnings, while Sales tax or a VAT can be rather unfair to the lower income folks. But, then, most sales taxes include exclusions for needed items, or tax refunds for lower income folks.

The OP is from Canada. I don't know much about how Canada taxes their people. Maybe they are not all that fair. But then there are folks who complain that ANY tax is an evil thing. They believe the gummint should pay for everything and not expect any recompense from the citizens.


I am not prepared to offer what the best taxing formula would be. Most would not like it.

I am only here to say that GST's and VAT's are regressive taxes and quite unfair and thus immoral. And we are all guilty of feeding that immorality by our compliance.

Regards

DL

[Mark Aspam]

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1495701 wrote: Does this graph indicate to you that the rich are being soaked?

9 out of 10 Americans are completely wrong about this mind-blowing fact.

Regards

DLWell, it's one of those bone-to-pick websites that starts with the conclusion and then folds, bends and mutilates the facts to support their own agenda. As far as I know, that is not illegal.

Personally, as a 75-year-old American, I've never felt that I was being over-taxed; on the contrary, compared to Canada, GB and others, I think USA taxes are pretty reasonable.

If you disagree, well, that is fine, I respect your right to do so! In that case, you should support candidates for public office who agree with you, or possibly run for office yourself on a tax-relief platform.

[LarsMac]

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1495703 wrote: I am not prepared to offer what the best taxing formula would be. Most would not like it.

I am only here to say that GST's and VAT's are regressive taxes and quite unfair and thus immoral. And we are all guilty of feeding that immorality by our compliance.

Regards

DL


VAT can actually be less unfair, in that they are based on what one buys, and are therefore progressive along with income. I cannot buy a 400,000 dollar car, therefore, I'll never be required to pay that 68000 dollar VAT on the thing. So my tax payments will be basically 17 % of what I spend, just like the rich guy.

Of course, my basic needs probably take up a significant portion of my regular income, compared to the guy who can afford that 400K car and it's 68K tax burden, so percentage-wise, you may have a point.

So, do you have a solution, or are you only here to whine about it?

[FourPart]

VAT gets confusing because of the way some things are considered chargeable, while others are not. For example, the famous case with McVities, when they had to prove that the Jaffa Cake was a cake, and not a biscuit, because cakes are chargeable for VAT, whereas biscuits are not (incidentally, they proved their case because Jaffa Cakes went stale & hardened overnight, whereas biscuits go soft). There was also the recent Tory attempt (defeated) to impose a Tampon Tax, because they deemed Tampons as luxuries, and therefore chargeable.

As I understand it, in the U.S., citizens are required to do their own tax returns at the end of the year. In the U.K. that only applies if you're self employed (Self Assessment). Everyone is then given a Tax Code grouping, according to their circumstances (Single, Married, etc). This provides a figure that you can earn before paying tax, then you pay on earnings made above that figure. This is dealt with directly by the employer (Pay As You Earn - PAYE), along with National Insurance. The problem comes with the Self Assessment & Corporate Taxation when they are only taxed on Net Profits. This means that by including fake business expenses (such as rent on some offshore property - which they happen to own under another name) they greatly reduce their profits & accordingly their tax. I know it's a very simplified explanation, but the in depth tricks to get around paying tax are a disgrace - especially when our Glorious Leader, Ham-moron, preaches at the immorality of Tax Avoidance, only to get caught with his hand in the cookie jar, to coin an American phrase.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Mark Aspam;1495709 wrote: Well, it's one of those bone-to-pick websites that starts with the conclusion and then folds, bends and mutilates the facts to support their own agenda. As far as I know, that is not illegal.


So you ignore the data and try to discredit it without putting anything against it. Senility has set in.

Personally, as a 75-year-old American, I've never felt that I was being over-taxed; on the contrary, compared to Canada, GB and others, I think USA taxes are pretty reasonable.


Irrelevant to the fact that you continue to have an advantage over those of less income than yourself and that those above your income have an advantage over you.

If you could do unto others, would you maintain such a system?

Is GST/VAT a regressive system?



If you disagree, well, that is fine, I respect your right to do so! In that case, you should support candidates for public office who agree with you, or possibly run for office yourself on a tax-relief platform.



Naivety bordering on senility.

Regards

DL

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

LarsMac;1495711 wrote: VAT can actually be less unfair, in that they are based on what one buys, and are therefore progressive along with income. I cannot buy a 400,000 dollar car, therefore, I'll never be required to pay that 68000 dollar VAT on the thing. So my tax payments will be basically 17 % of what I spend, just like the rich guy.

Of course, my basic needs probably take up a significant portion of my regular income, compared to the guy who can afford that 400K car and it's 68K tax burden, so percentage-wise, you may have a point.

So, do you have a solution, or are you only here to whine about it?


Tax Research UK » Why VAT is regressive

The solution is for all of us to recognize that we are screwing the poorest in favor of the richest and to start showing how we are fed up with screwing our poorer in favor of the richer.

Regards

DL

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

FourPart;1495727 wrote: VAT gets confusing because of the way some things are considered chargeable, while others are not. For example, the famous case with McVities, when they had to prove that the Jaffa Cake was a cake, and not a biscuit, because cakes are chargeable for VAT, whereas biscuits are not (incidentally, they proved their case because Jaffa Cakes went stale & hardened overnight, whereas biscuits go soft). There was also the recent Tory attempt (defeated) to impose a Tampon Tax, because they deemed Tampons as luxuries, and therefore chargeable.

As I understand it, in the U.S., citizens are required to do their own tax returns at the end of the year. In the U.K. that only applies if you're self employed (Self Assessment). Everyone is then given a Tax Code grouping, according to their circumstances (Single, Married, etc). This provides a figure that you can earn before paying tax, then you pay on earnings made above that figure. This is dealt with directly by the employer (Pay As You Earn - PAYE), along with National Insurance. The problem comes with the Self Assessment & Corporate Taxation when they are only taxed on Net Profits. This means that by including fake business expenses (such as rent on some offshore property - which they happen to own under another name) they greatly reduce their profits & accordingly their tax. I know it's a very simplified explanation, but the in depth tricks to get around paying tax are a disgrace - especially when our Glorious Leader, Ham-moron, preaches at the immorality of Tax Avoidance, only to get caught with his hand in the cookie jar, to coin an American phrase.


We know that there is much corruption in high places.

Are GST's and VAT's progressive or regressive taxes?

Regards

DL

[Mark Aspam]

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1495741 wrote: Naivety bordering on senility.

Regards

DLIf all you have to offer are personal insults (which are, by the way, against the rules of this forum), why even bother?

I made what I think is a very reasonable suggestion: Run for office yourself and see how many votes you get. Seems pretty obvious to me. Thousands of Americans do so and hundreds of them are actually elected...really!

[AnneBoleyn]

The really twisted thing, Mark, is that GCB says "Regards" after a major insult, like what he just said to you.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

AnneBoleyn;1495747 wrote: The really twisted thing, Mark, is that GCB says "Regards" after a major insult, like what he just said to you.


All you ever do is attack out of nowhere so bite me.

Regards

DL

[LarsMac]

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1495742 wrote: Tax Research UK � Why VAT is regressive

The solution is for all of us to recognize that we are screwing the poorest in favor of the richest and to start showing how we are fed up with screwing our poorer in favor of the richer.

Regards

DL


"We" are doing nothing of the sort. Stop whining and suggest an actual solution.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

LarsMac;1495912 wrote: "We" are doing nothing of the sort. Stop whining and suggest an actual solution.


Yes you are and the solution is in tax reform.

You know your government better than I do so the solution is in your hands.

My solution for would be to tax all people at the same rate regardless of income and base it on their net worth. After the poor are subsidized over the poverty rate that is.

All then would be taxed equally by % of net worth and no rich country would have any poor.

Regards

DL

[FourPart]

That is where the problem lies in Tax Avoidance. We ARE taxed on our NET worth. The problem is, though, that those that have the money get out of it by placing it all into offshore investments which are 'officially' loss making, which means they have no net value on which to be taxed. It's the wealthy who can afford the expensive accountants to advise them how to fiddle the system. Perhaps it should be a lower rate based on Gross income.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

FourPart;1495937 wrote: That is where the problem lies in Tax Avoidance. We ARE taxed on our NET worth. The problem is, though, that those that have the money get out of it by placing it all into offshore investments which are 'officially' loss making, which means they have no net value on which to be taxed. It's the wealthy who can afford the expensive accountants to advise them how to fiddle the system. Perhaps it should be a lower rate based on Gross income.


I detached the tax from income because of the ease and farness of what I proposed.

I would have those who have car collections and their own jets pay tax on them yearly.

The tax avoidance and other fraud by the rich are a different issue altogether and would have the same negative effect on most tax systems.

The U.S. and other countries are creating new rules to catch those offenders as we speak.

I am having a discussion on cashless societies at present elsewhere and going cashless might be the only way to really stop the tax avoidance and corruption.

Regards

DL

[FourPart]

The question is in what you consider as being cashless. How would you trade? Even a banknote is only an IOU to the that amount of value in gold - as can be seen on any U.K. banknote the words "I promise to pay the bearer on demand the sum of...". It's just a promissory note. When you buy a house, do you pay for it in Gold? What currency do you suggest?

[LarsMac]

"Net Worth" is not a valid option. "Net Income" is the theoretical point for determining taxes. There is the rub.

And the idea of a transaction based tax, like a VAT is not really a bad method.

The government simply needs to work out what types of items for which VAT is not required, and maintain that list in an up to date fashion.

Groceries, necessities and necessary items like medicine and toiletries, and such should be tax free.

People whose income is below a certain level should be able to receive tax breaks on items like transportation methods, and such things.

The rest of the people would pay VAT on all items outside the scope of the above.

The more you spend, the more tax you pay. Stocks and bonds and such should also have some sort of transaction tax associated with them.

[FourPart]

I've always said that they should do away with Road Tax & add the revenue to fuel instead. In that way, those who use the roads most would pay the highest proportion. Plus it would mean that foreign tourists / lorry drivers, etc. would have to pay their way (after all, we don't get exemption from their road tolls), plus it would encourage people to make sure their vehicles are the maximum level of fuel efficiency possible.

As for VAT, it's not as straightforward as you might think. The theory is that the tax is only paid by the final customer. However, throughout the manufacturing process of an item there are often traders who are not registered for VAT. Then there are VAT liable materials that are used in the manufacture of VAT free products, and vice versa. The Tories tried to (unsuccessfully) class Tampons as a luxury, thus making them taxable. They also (unsuccessfully) tried to define Jaffa Cakes as Biscuits, because Biscuits are classed as luxuries, whereas Cakes are not (go figure). If you are disabled then you are exempt from paying VAT on disability aids. However, anyone who is not disabled is liable to pay VAT for exactly the same product from exactly the same store. It would be so much simpler if EVERYBODY had to pay a lower rate of Sales Tax at every stage of the process on everything. It would simplify matters & would probably mean a higher revenue in the long term.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

FourPart;1495953 wrote: The question is in what you consider as being cashless. How would you trade? Even a banknote is only an IOU to the that amount of value in gold - as can be seen on any U.K. banknote the words "I promise to pay the bearer on demand the sum of...". It's just a promissory note. When you buy a house, do you pay for it in Gold? What currency do you suggest?


A digital cashless society would just use electronic cash, that as usual, is covered by governments.

Regards

DL

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

LarsMac;1495958 wrote: "Net Worth" is not a valid option. "Net Income" is the theoretical point for determining taxes. There is the rub.

And the idea of a transaction based tax, like a VAT is not really a bad method.

The government simply needs to work out what types of items for which VAT is not required, and maintain that list in an up to date fashion.

Groceries, necessities and necessary items like medicine and toiletries, and such should be tax free.

People whose income is below a certain level should be able to receive tax breaks on items like transportation methods, and such things.

The rest of the people would pay VAT on all items outside the scope of the above.

The more you spend, the more tax you pay. Stocks and bonds and such should also have some sort of transaction tax associated with them.


They would if a net worth was taxed instead of income.

You show the repressiveness of VATs for the poor yet you do not seem to care that your tax burden is likely larger than the richer ones do to you making less than they do.

That is not a moral way to tax people as the richer one is, the less tax he will pay.

I do not think it moral for the poorer to subsidize the richer of us.

Regards

DL

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

FourPart;1495989 wrote: I've always said that they should do away with Road Tax & add the revenue to fuel instead. In that way, those who use the roads most would pay the highest proportion. Plus it would mean that foreign tourists / lorry drivers, etc. would have to pay their way (after all, we don't get exemption from their road tolls), plus it would encourage people to make sure their vehicles are the maximum level of fuel efficiency possible.

As for VAT, it's not as straightforward as you might think. The theory is that the tax is only paid by the final customer. However, throughout the manufacturing process of an item there are often traders who are not registered for VAT. Then there are VAT liable materials that are used in the manufacture of VAT free products, and vice versa. The Tories tried to (unsuccessfully) class Tampons as a luxury, thus making them taxable. They also (unsuccessfully) tried to define Jaffa Cakes as Biscuits, because Biscuits are classed as luxuries, whereas Cakes are not (go figure). If you are disabled then you are exempt from paying VAT on disability aids. However, anyone who is not disabled is liable to pay VAT for exactly the same product from exactly the same store. It would be so much simpler if EVERYBODY had to pay a lower rate of Sales Tax at every stage of the process on everything. It would simplify matters & would probably mean a higher revenue in the long term.


That may all come about if the richer stop to write our tax codes and have their paid politicians implement them.

Regards

DL