Is God Real?

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:18 pm

I do not see God as a being. I see God as an experiential reality. And I agree that it is not necessary to believe in God to be moral.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Fri Aug 28, 2015 6:21 pm

Ted;1485042 wrote: I do not see God as a being. I see God as an experiential reality. And I agree that it is not necessary to believe in God to be moral.

I see God as a reality that certain men have treated it like an experiment.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Fri Aug 28, 2015 7:40 pm

There is a difference between experiment and experience.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Sat Aug 29, 2015 9:33 am

Ted;1485072 wrote: There is a difference between experiment and experience.

Yes and spiritual things are an experience , relationships are experiences, and thus a lack of relationship is an experience; and in my view, the world is " Experiencing" a lack of relationship with God. Through no fault of their own. God wanted the world to be in turmoil and complete confusion when he returns; and that is exactly what is going on. And its not getting any better, and won't get better, Why? Because the power that be is influencing it all. Its so obvious; yet to many its not obvious.

Its academic that God is a reality, and a confusing reality. We think him one thing, when really he is another! And he is not experimenting on humanity, not now. I think its possible he did experiment on Primordial man, I think that MAY be possible, I just don't know for sure. But what he is doing now is direct and very meaningful. Desiring certain specific results! Results that cannot be altered, cannot be changed, cannot be bargained with.

We all will be saved from the horror; and absolutely nothing can stop that! Its already a done deal.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sat Aug 29, 2015 11:52 am

"God wanted the world to be in turmoil and complete confusion. . . ." Just what kind of a loving God would do that???. The more I study, the more I learn, the more I practice, my faith only increases. My trust is in the Divine.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Sat Aug 29, 2015 12:28 pm

Ted;1485118 wrote: "God wanted the world to be in turmoil and complete confusion. . . ." Just what kind of a loving God would do that???. The more I study, the more I learn, the more I practice, my faith only increases. My trust is in the Divine.

Its not " Do that", its " Done that"; its already done! The turmoil is done.

And this is why; Romans 11:32, " For God has shut the whole world up in unbelief , only that he might ( Later), show mercy to them ALL!

God did it to one day show us all mercy; that is WHY the turmoil!

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sat Aug 29, 2015 3:22 pm

So the "almighty" God finds it necessary to play games. In places we are told that we cannot come to God unless he invites us??? So God is love and he shows that love by playing games and confusing people. Why???

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Sat Aug 29, 2015 4:49 pm

Ted;1485134 wrote: So the "almighty" God finds it necessary to play games. In places we are told that we cannot come to God unless he invites us??? So God is love and he shows that love by playing games and confusing people. Why???

Why; its his pathology, its his way; just mysterious and pass finding out. I don't know why, but I do know in the end we all will be with him forever. Romans 11:32 says that God shut us all up in unbelief, just that so he would later show Mercy to us All. So its just kind of weird; different; God's ways are nothing like ours.

God has bent things, which only he can straighten out. In his own way and time.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sat Aug 29, 2015 7:05 pm

That is a very strange view of the God who is love. I reject that totally. That is not the God we see manifest in the very human Jesus. Not even close. It is a misunderstanding of the Bible and very demeaning of God in my view.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sat Aug 29, 2015 7:34 pm

They did find some ancient mines for sure. However archaeologist have found that the Bible does not support most claims. Solomon's empire was never as big as written up. There is not one shred of evidence for the exodus. There is no evidence of a grand invasion of Canaan. This says nothing about the conflicting statements in the Bible. For example just how did Judas, if he in fact existed, die. There are conflicting genealogies on the ancestry of Jesus. None of them agree with each other. Books could be written on the discrepancies in the Bible. This does not mean that I do not see the Bible as sacred but it is not the absolute and inerrant "Word of God". That phrase rightly belongs to the risen one and not a book. To make it the inerrant word of God has turned it into an object of Idolatry. While there is evidence of David's existence there there is no evidence that it was as large as written in the Bible. He was probably a local warlord.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Sun Aug 30, 2015 9:48 am

Ted;1485151 wrote: That is a very strange view of the God who is love. I reject that totally. That is not the God we see manifest in the very human Jesus. Not even close. It is a misunderstanding of the Bible and very demeaning of God in my view.

Its the God I see in scripture, literally " Locking humanity into themselves", storing them in a selfish prison. Preserving them until the last days, letting them live out their lives in meaningless struggle. But he is getting something from the suffering, something that is between him and each individual, which will last on through eternity; what that something is, I don't know. But I know everything God does has a purpose.

We are locked in the darkness now; all of us. Minds and consciousness simply deceived and its a VERY powerful deception. An illusion. We are in a giant womb; the earth is an incubator, and we are suffering, heading toward our birth; Isaiah 66:9, " Shall I bring to the birth and not bring forth? Says the Lord. Shall I cause to bring forth and shut the womb?" No, we are suffering birth pains and God will deliver us all.

But we do not know him while in this womb; we are merely babies. Our God is WAY beyond us all!

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sun Aug 30, 2015 12:03 pm

"he is getting something out of it. . ." Your God is a sadist. When we read the Beatitudes we see a new view of the law: "You have heard it said . . . but I say unto you . .. .The war god of the OT is gone. A god who makes people suffer is indeed a sadist.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Sun Aug 30, 2015 12:44 pm

Ted;1485251 wrote: "he is getting something out of it. . ." Your God is a sadist. When we read the Beatitudes we see a new view of the law: "You have heard it said . . . but I say unto you . .. .The war god of the OT is gone. A god who makes people suffer is indeed a sadist.

If you read the book of Revelations, its going to get REAL Worse! A third of all humanity will be killed. Those who remain will suffer greatly, even to the point of trying to hide from God. All kinds of terrors will hit humanity, and then God will come.

Its not going to be a war, its going to be a slaughter.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sun Aug 30, 2015 3:40 pm

The book of Revelation was not about the end of the world but the end of the Roman Empire. In fact it was a rant agains the Roman Empire. It had and has nothing to do with the end of history. According to D. Crossan who has read a good many of the ancient sacred texts of all faiths the book of Revelation is the most bloody and violent sacred text there is. Is this talking about the God manifest in Jesus?

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Sun Aug 30, 2015 6:23 pm

Ted;1485291 wrote: The book of Revelation was not about the end of the world but the end of the Roman Empire. In fact it was a rant agains the Roman Empire. It had and has nothing to do with the end of history. According to D. Crossan who has read a good many of the ancient sacred texts of all faiths the book of Revelation is the most bloody and violent sacred text there is. Is this talking about the God manifest in Jesus?

It has everything to do with the end of history and the earth. That's what Rev. 21:1 means, " And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, the first heaven and the first earth were " Passed Away", and there was no more sea." The first earth, this earth we know now, will be destroyed, along with its history; that's what " Passed Away " means; it will be no more.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Mon Aug 31, 2015 2:55 pm

Hey if you want to believe that go for it. Revelation was a rant against the Roman empire. That comes fro Bible translators: J. B Phillips translator of the New testament and supported by many scholars. I do have to laugh as the New Jerusalem comes down out of the sky. Hope it comes complete with infrastructure. Walking golden streets for eternity sound totally boring. Scholars will tell you that prophesy was about their own time and not some time in the distant future. We do not need magic and make believe to trust in the Divine. Nor do we need and inerrant Bible. It is like some people wanting a contract signed sealed and delivered because they do not trust God. Are they going to hold God to account if it is wrong?? That I would like to see. To not trust in God is to demean the Divine.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Mon Aug 31, 2015 6:24 pm

Ted;1485363 wrote: Hey if you want to believe that go for it. Revelation was a rant against the Roman empire. That comes fro Bible translators: J. B Phillips translator of the New testament and supported by many scholars. I do have to laugh as the New Jerusalem comes down out of the sky. Hope it comes complete with infrastructure. Walking golden streets for eternity sound totally boring. Scholars will tell you that prophesy was about their own time and not some time in the distant future. We do not need magic and make believe to trust in the Divine. Nor do we need and inerrant Bible. It is like some people wanting a contract signed sealed and delivered because they do not trust God. Are they going to hold God to account if it is wrong?? That I would like to see. To not trust in God is to demean the Divine.

Revelations is not a rant against Romans, what it is, its explained in verse 1 of Chapter 1, Its a Revelation of Jesus to his servants, to show them things which will happen in the future. That's what it is; self explanatory.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Mon Aug 31, 2015 7:02 pm

LOL, So you say but that is not the view of highly trained scholars. The Bible has in the last 200 years become an object of idolatry. People are so in need of a security blanket they cannot see or accept the truth.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Mon Aug 31, 2015 7:13 pm

I was raised in a very fundamentalist church and found it evil. Fundamentalism in my view is a curse and demeaning to the Divine. Fundamentalism is relatively new taking hold about 200 years ago. It does not represent the church of the apostles. The church that is closest today is the Greek Orthodox church.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Mon Aug 31, 2015 7:50 pm

There is no church today that is close; not in my view. The real church of God is yet to come, and they will be a people from every nation on earth.

That's bible!

And I don't see it yet. I wish I live to see it.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Mon Aug 31, 2015 7:51 pm

Ted;1485379 wrote: LOL, So you say but that is not the view of highly trained scholars. The Bible has in the last 200 years become an object of idolatry. People are so in need of a security blanket they cannot see or accept the truth.

The scholars don't have a clue.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Tue Sep 01, 2015 8:50 pm

That is a very telling point of view. Are you even familiar with the scholarly approach??????

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:34 am

Ted;1485459 wrote: That is a very telling point of view. Are you even familiar with the scholarly approach??????

Scholars can be wrong;

and have been. That's one way deception grows so strong.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 7:35 pm

My feeling is they are more likely to be closer to the truth than you are. Literalism is simply delusional.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 3:04 pm

Ted;1485527 wrote: My feeling is they are more likely to be closer to the truth than you are. Literalism is simply delusional.

My feeling is that they are light years away from the truth, science is closer to truth than theologians are. These biblical historians are elementary students of a vast universe of knowldge; they are good at explaining the first mile of a billion mile lesson.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:32 pm

LOL. Do you have any idea about the nature and veracity of scholarship??

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Sat Sep 05, 2015 2:31 pm

Ted;1485678 wrote: LOL. Do you have any idea about the nature and veracity of scholarship??

Yes, its just as man made as cement.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sat Sep 05, 2015 5:21 pm

Yep just like the Bible.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Sat Sep 05, 2015 6:42 pm

Ted;1485749 wrote: Yep just like the Bible.

Notice how many people are standing with you in this thread; hardly anyone.

They don't stand with me either.

People don't know God; and I see why they don't, I barely see he is real myself. Being for real with my self and my right mind, there is no other conscious reality but to admit God is real.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sat Sep 05, 2015 7:08 pm

Not too many here to begin with. Not too many interested any more. I happen to think that a book that has survived for two millennia must have something to offer. However those who wrote it understood that it must be reinterpreted according to the knowledge and understanding of the era. Things like talking snakes or the sun standing still, or the sea parted are just no longer believable. Interpreted as midrash makes a great deal of sense in our time.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Sun Sep 06, 2015 10:17 am

Ted;1485755 wrote: Not too many here to begin with. Not too many interested any more. I happen to think that a book that has survived for two millennia must have something to offer. However those who wrote it understood that it must be reinterpreted according to the knowledge and understanding of the era. Things like talking snakes or the sun standing still, or the sea parted are just no longer believable. Interpreted as midrash makes a great deal of sense in our time.

Well I agree; I saw the interest in this section fading and I tried to change that by posting. The bible has survived and has been a best seller and in the top ten for over 400 years running. People did write much of it according to their times, oh but many of them went beyond their time, no doubt about it. It has proven prophecy in it. I can do a whole thread on proven prophecy.

The people are here; they are looking, just count the views on my threads; they just choose not to say anything; like a side line shopper, get what you want and leave. They lack the motivation to participate; the energy and the will.

Which is why we who participate , have to be on target as best we can.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sun Sep 06, 2015 7:06 pm

Bernhard W Amderson has shown in his book "Understanding the Old Testament" that prophesy was about the writers time and not some time in a distant future era. Theologian Walter Bruggaman has also discussed this in his writings and says the same thing as Anderson. J B Philips in his translation of the NT, also makes the same assertion. In the NT we see listed many of the so called prophesies related to Jesus. These so all prophesies were appended to Jesus after the experience of the historical The prophesies were written about Jesus. They can all be found in the OT and were appended to Jesus long after the fact. They wrote these of Jesus after the fact and made the stories of Jesus reflect those. ei. He was born in Nazareth but since the ancient script said he would be born in Bethlehem that is how they wrote the story to fit the OT.. They wrote for their own time.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:36 am

Jesus fulfilled 315 prophecys all by himself.

The Fundi Driveby: Old Testament Prophecies Fulfilled By Christ

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 11:13 am

Absolutely not. They looked in the OT to find things they thought pertained to Jesus and wrote the story up that way. This is not successful prophesy but a failure to understand the Bible stories.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 8:16 am

Mickiel;1485752 wrote: Notice how many people are standing with you in this thread; hardly anyone.

They don't stand with me either.

People don't know God; and I see why they don't, I barely see he is real myself. Being for real with my self and my right mind, there is no other conscious reality but to admit God is real.

I stand with him. Ted knows his stuff. He doesn't need the likes of us to back him up.

I see Ted as being more Spiritual than Religious. Whlst he is a believer in his own way, he also has a contempt for the way the Bible has been twisted, cherry picked & deliberately misinterpreted in order to suit those who want it to say what they want it to say. The problem is that in their so doing they have left far too many inconsistencies.

The Bible is nothing but a collection of lies, specifically written to prey on the gullible. As far as it being a record of 'history' is concerned - remember also that history is invariably written by the winners.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:23 pm

I can't agree that it is a book of lies. It contains some very applicable wisdom even for today. However that being said it has been redacted, had changes from the scribes who deliberately changed what it said. It also contains some forgeries such as some of the letters attributed to Paul. Apparently some scholars now believe that the section of the Bible that begins with "Thou are Peter and upon this rock I will build my church," was an edition by the early Roman church. In amongst all of that crap there is some ancient wisdom. Of course there is Num 31 where God apparently not only condoned war crimes but demanded it. Then there are all kinds of inconsistencies which if read as midrash simply become unimportant. Personally I believe that literalism and fundamentalism are the curse of the church and Christianity as a whole. In fact we do not have any of the original documents and we all know what happens to oral tradition as time goes on.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:34 pm

FourPart;1485927 wrote: I stand with him. Ted knows his stuff. He doesn't need the likes of us to back him up.

I see Ted as being more Spiritual than Religious. Whlst he is a believer in his own way, he also has a contempt for the way the Bible has been twisted, cherry picked & deliberately misinterpreted in order to suit those who want it to say what they want it to say. The problem is that in their so doing they have left far too many inconsistencies.

The Bible is nothing but a collection of lies, specifically written to prey on the gullible. As far as it being a record of 'history' is concerned - remember also that history is invariably written by the winners.

The bible has been misinterpreted , but so has the constitution; but that is not the fault of either written documents, its the fault of the humans who do it. So you don't throw out the constitution or the bible, you have enough sense to realize what has happened, and you preserve and interpret it right yourself.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:27 am

As with the Bible, the Constitution was written to match the conditions of the time of its writing. At least the Constitution has attempted to move with the times, such as with the introduction of Amendments. Where things then start to fall apart is when people insist on clinging to the original letter when it so suits them - such as the Right to Bear Arms. This was instituted for the newly Independent American Citizens to be able to protect themselves from King George's Redcoats in an attempt to retake the colony. However, it's in the Constitution, therefore, despite not having any relevance any more, it must be adhered to.

According to Catholic doctrine it is forbidden to use contraception. You show me one place in the Bible where it says "Thou shalt not use a condom". The Church is continuously making up its own rules, trying to make out that these rules are the sacred word of the Bible, and that anyone who questions them is then condemned of heresy.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 11:09 am

FourPart;1486186 wrote: As with the Bible, the Constitution was written to match the conditions of the time of its writing. At least the Constitution has attempted to move with the times, such as with the introduction of Amendments. Where things then start to fall apart is when people insist on clinging to the original letter when it so suits them - such as the Right to Bear Arms. This was instituted for the newly Independent American Citizens to be able to protect themselves from King George's Redcoats in an attempt to retake the colony. However, it's in the Constitution, therefore, despite not having any relevance any more, it must be adhered to.

According to Catholic doctrine it is forbidden to use contraception. You show me one place in the Bible where it says "Thou shalt not use a condom". The Church is continuously making up its own rules, trying to make out that these rules are the sacred word of the Bible, and that anyone who questions them is then condemned of heresy.

I don't stand for todays church, you seem to miss that with me. The bible speaks against sex before marriage, but it does not condemn to death those who don't adhere to that. And neither do I. I broke that many times myself. And the bible says its forgiven.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 11:23 am

Deut 22

20 But if this charge is true, that the girl was not found a virgin,

21 Then they shall bring out the girl to the doorway of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death because she has committed an act of folly in Israel by playing the harlot in her father's house; thus you shall purge the evil from among you.¦

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 12:49 pm

Not accepted by modern theological thinking. The ear Hebrews had this tithing because they were a small tribe and wanted the sexual acts done only within the tribe in order to increase their population to enhance the tribe. Paul is shown to be anti-homosexual but what he was complaining about was pederasty and no homosexuality as we know it.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 1:38 pm

The early Hebrew people formed a very small tribe. Their issue was sexual activity should be kept within the tribe in order to raise the Hebrew population. Thus anyone playing outside the rules was to be killed. The other problem which really reflects the same thing is the existence of temple prostitution. Paul in Romans people misinterpret because Paul was against pederasty but no homosexuality as we know it today.

Oops double post.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 4:32 pm

FourPart;1486193 wrote: Deut 22

20 But if this charge is true, that the girl was not found a virgin,

21 Then they shall bring out the girl to the doorway of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death because she has committed an act of folly in Israel by playing the harlot in her father's house; thus you shall purge the evil from among you.¦

That Old Covenant was abolished and done away with. Jesus completely forgave the woman who was caught in adultery , and that is the new standard; your just not hip to it; your mind must find fault in the bible, because its set to do that.

And I understand that setting.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 4:40 pm

Ted;1486200 wrote: Not accepted by modern theological thinking. The ear Hebrews had this tithing because they were a small tribe and wanted the sexual acts done only within the tribe in order to increase their population to enhance the tribe. Paul is shown to be anti-homosexual but what he was complaining about was pederasty and no homosexuality as we know it.

The bible is anti-homosexual, but it is not against homosexual salvation and forgiveness; its just not. Its against a man having sex with another man, or a woman with a woman; but it is not against ANYONE'S forgiveness and salvation. Just because humans can be homosexual, does not mean God does not Love them, or have plans for them, and a future for them. God is the EXACT same way with killers, rapist, pedifiles or child molesters; all of them will be in his Kingdom; and that is the unknown truth I am pleased to announce. It may not be known here, or believed and understood, or discussed in truth, but I understand it and my mind is free from the bondage of not understanding it.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:11 pm

Oh yes the Bible as an idol. Jesus had absolutely nothing to say about same sex issues, nothing. Homosexuality is genetic but some churches in their ignorance don't realize they are as God had created them. God did nor does he want to condemn anyone for being what he created. Fundamentalism and literalism never represented the church of the apostles. Perhaps they are apostates.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 8:59 am

Ted;1486250 wrote: Oh yes the Bible as an idol. Jesus had absolutely nothing to say about same sex issues, nothing. Homosexuality is genetic but some churches in their ignorance don't realize they are as God had created them. God did nor does he want to condemn anyone for being what he created. Fundamentalism and literalism never represented the church of the apostles. Perhaps they are apostates.

Oh no no, " Some" of homosexuality is genetic , some of it is by choice , some by peer pressure, others by a forced environment. You can't sweep all of homosexuality into one cause.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:27 pm

Mickiel;1486219 wrote: That Old Covenant was abolished and done away with. Jesus completely forgave the woman who was caught in adultery , and that is the new standard; your just not hip to it; your mind must find fault in the bible, because its set to do that.

And I understand that setting.
I didn't say anything about covenants or testaments. The Bible remains the Bible. Therefore, as my quote shows it DOES condemn to death pre-marital sex, despite your saying that it does not. Your claim that the old covenant has been abolished is only applicable to Christians. I doubt whether the Jews would consider the old covenant as having been abolished. Nor are they likely to refer to their Bible as being the Old Testament. As far as they are concerned it is THE Testament. THE Bible.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Fri Sep 18, 2015 2:08 pm

There is that "Bible as idolatry" again. On that note Gnostic is correct.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:34 pm

FourPart;1486292 wrote: I didn't say anything about covenants or testaments. The Bible remains the Bible. Therefore, as my quote shows it DOES condemn to death pre-marital sex, despite your saying that it does not. Your claim that the old covenant has been abolished is only applicable to Christians. I doubt whether the Jews would consider the old covenant as having been abolished. Nor are they likely to refer to their Bible as being the Old Testament. As far as they are concerned it is THE Testament. THE Bible.

Jesus is the living word of God and he did not condemn it. As far as I am concerned, he is the bible.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Sat Sep 26, 2015 2:34 am

Mickiel;1486785 wrote: Jesus is the living word of God and he did not condemn it. As far as I am concerned, he is the bible.
That's the point. It's as far as you're concerned. It is not the case as far as the much older evidence supports. As far as the Jews (which Jesus, himself was one of) are concerned, the (Old) Testament is the Bible. As far as the Sikhs are concerned, the Granth is the Bile, with the Muslims it's the Q'uran, and so on and so forth. These beliefs have been going on long before Jesus' alleged birth. Who are you to say they are all wrong?