Is God Real?

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 3:31 pm

Ahso!;1481487 wrote: It didn't happen. Outside the gospel of Matthew and repeats of it there is not one shred of evidence in recorded history of the event.

The Toledot Yeshu text records it.

Text Editions - Theology : Toledot Yeshu: The Life Story of Jesus : Text Editions

As does " The Babylonian Talmud;"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmud

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 3:36 pm

Ahso!;1481488 wrote: Showing us where you got your misinformation proves nothing, Micky. Simply because it's on the internet does not make it true.

Well I agree, just because something is on the internet does not make it true. If I can use my own skeptical mind; I don't believe just anything; I must be convinced by many parts and piece them together.

I am a supersticious man.

Smaug · Post by **Smaug** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 3:53 pm

Ahso!;1481488 wrote: Showing us where you got your misinformation proves nothing, Micky. Simply because it's on the internet does not make it true.

You quote my post to Pahu, and seem to hint that me challenging Pahu to be original is trolling, yet you challenge Mickiel in similar fashion? Is it trolling, or is it challenging? You can't have it both ways, Ahso.

I personally think it's a challenge, as trolling is relentless and usually rude,belittling or threatening.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 3:58 pm

Mickiel;1481489 wrote: The Toledot Yeshu text records it.

Text Editions - Theology : Toledot Yeshu: The Life Story of Jesus : Text Editions

As does " The Babylonian Talmud;"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TalmudBoth accounts based off of the gospel of matthew. There is nothing nowhere in acknowledged historical events that relay this false event. You can only find this in religious folklore.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:06 pm

Smaug;1481497 wrote: You quote my post to Pahu, and seem to hint that me challenging Pahu to be original is trolling, yet you challenge Mickiel in similar fashion? Is it trolling, or is it challenging? You can't have it both ways, Ahso.

I personally think it's a challenge, as trolling is relentless and usually rude,belittling or threatening.The post you're referring to was quoted by you from Fourpart. You appeared to me to be chiding the idea that Evolution is indeed factual. You seem to try to present yourself as a skeptic on just about every subject leaving open "ifs" about everything. Facts are facts.

In no way whatsoever is my response to you at all similar to my response to Micky.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:13 pm

Ahso!;1481499 wrote: Both accounts based off of the gospel of matthew. There is nothing nowhere in acknowledged historical events that relay this false event. You can only find this in religious folklore.

You don't know what your talking about, the Talmud was written before the book of Matthew;

Talmud Judaism - Jewish Texts - Judaism Texts Talmud

Smaug · Post by **Smaug** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:17 pm

Ahso!;1481502 wrote: The post you're referring to was quoted by you from Fourpart. You appeared to me to be chiding the idea that Evolution is indeed factual. You seem to try to present yourself as a skeptic on just about every subject leaving open "ifs" about everything. Facts are facts.

In no way whatsoever is my response to you at all similar to my response to Micky.

I quoted FourPart because I happen to agree with him! If you believe Pahu, then that's entirely YOUR choice. I don't. That's MY choice. I am a sceptic, always have been, always will be. As for "If", life's full of 'em! "If" indicates the potential for other possibilities, mistake and error being probably two of the most persistent principals in the LIVING universe, judging by Man's track record to date.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:18 pm

Mickiel;1481504 wrote: You don't know what your talking about, the Talmud was written before the book of Matthew;

Talmud Judaism - Jewish Texts - Judaism Texts TalmudOkay, so the gospel of matthew was based off the other folklore text. Arguing over which religious text came first is senseless. The fact is that only religion claims the event occurred. It didn't happen, some historian or record-keeper would have recorded such an event somewhere.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:24 pm

Ahso!;1481506 wrote: Okay, so the gospel of matthew was based off the other folklore text. Arguing over which religious text came first is senseless. The fact is that only religion claims the event occurred. It didn't happen, some historian or record-keeper would have recorded such an event somewhere.

You can't wiggle away from me when you are wrong, may be best you debate those who cannot corner you; what you stated was pure wrong. There are outside sources that record Christ, and have absolutely nothing to do with the book of Matthews.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:26 pm

Smaug;1481505 wrote: I quoted FourPart because I happen to agree with him! If you believe Pahu, then that's entirely YOUR choice. I don't. That's MY choice. I am a sceptic, always have been, always will be. As for "If", life's full of 'em! "If" indicates the potential for other possibilities, mistake and error being probably two of the most persistent principals in the LIVING universe, judging by Man's track record to date.*light switch is flipped on*

Me: electricity was allowed to flow to the light bulb and illuminated it.

You: Electricity illuminated the bulb IF it made it to the bulb.

IF.

Just. Plain. Silly.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:29 pm

Mickiel;1481508 wrote: You can't wiggle away from me when you are wrong, may be best you debate those who cannot corner you; what you stated was pure wrong. There are outside sources that record Christ, and have absolutely nothing to do with the book of Matthews.First, Mickey, I admitted I was in error, but it makes no difference, it's merely a matter of which religious text lied first and which copied the other.

Second, we were discussing the slaughter of the innocent as recorded in the new testament, not whether or not the Jesus described in the bible existed, though both are false.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:35 pm

Ahso!;1481510 wrote: Fist, Mickey, I admitted I was in error, but it makes no difference, it's merely a matter of which religious text lied first and which copied the other.

Second, we were discussing the slaughter of the innocent as recorded in the new testament, not whether or not the Jesus described in the bible existed, though both are false.

Well of course you were " In error", or wrong; I honor you at least admitting it.

And it does make a difference, because your error is not limited to only this one thing; and you are spreading your errors , as if they are truth;

and that is what I am discussing. And the longer you have speaks with me, the more of those errors I will show.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:37 pm

Oh, okay.

Smaug · Post by **Smaug** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:38 pm

Ahso!;1481509 wrote: *light switch is flipped on*

Me: electricity was allowed to flow to the light bulb and illuminated it.

You: Electricity illuminated the bulb IF it made it to the bulb.

IF.

Just. Plain. Silly.

I find that there's nothing silly about questioning things rather than just blindly accepting them. It's one of the ways we've refined our knowledge. Without challenge, without "if", we'd still be without the wheel! I can imagine early man dragging some wood back to the fire, thinking " carrying this wood is OK, but IF I could get an animal to carry it instead, it would be easier, more could be carried in one journey and it would save time". There's nothing wrong with "if".

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:40 pm

Smaug;1481513 wrote: I find that there's nothing silly about questioning things rather than just blindly accepting them. It's one of the ways we've refined our knowledge. Without challenge, without "if", we'd still be without the wheel! I can imagine early man dragging some wood back to the fire, thinking " carrying this wood is OK, but IF I could get an animal to carry it instead, it would be easier, more could be carried in one journey and it would save time". There's nothing wrong with "if".How old are you? I'm not being insulting, I'm genuinely curious.

Smaug · Post by **Smaug** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:45 pm

Ahso!;1481514 wrote: How old are you? I'm not being insulting, I'm genuinely curious.

What's that got to do with anything?

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:46 pm

Ahso!;1481512 wrote: Oh, okay.

If I may continue with your errors; you think God cannot prevent evil, just pure error! God created evil, he wants it to thrive now; and then a time will come that it will be no more. Evil exist because God exist! If God did not WANT a thing to exist, and it did, that thing would then be stronger than God!

Simple truth; yet , if misunderstood, it can mess a human mind up in understanding. And that mess can be spread;

because God WANTS it spread;

for now.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:47 pm

Smaug;1481515 wrote: What's that got to do with anything?An excuse? Judging from your profile page I'd think you're at least in your 40s. Wow!

Smaug · Post by **Smaug** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:50 pm

Ahso!;1481517 wrote: An excuse? Judging from your profile page I'd think you're at least in your 40s. Wow!

Yes, that's so. 47 to be accurate. Your age?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:52 pm

59...

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:54 pm

Mickiel;1481516 wrote: If I may continue with your errors; you think God cannot prevent evil, just pure error! God created evil, he wants it to thrive now; and then a time will come that it will be no more. Evil exist because God exist! If God did not WANT a thing to exist, and it did, that thing would then be stronger than God!

Simple truth; yet , if misunderstood, it can mess a human mind up in understanding. And that mess can be spread;

because God WANTS it spread;

for now.I see!

Smaug · Post by **Smaug** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:56 pm

Ahso!;1481519 wrote: 59...

Looks like we're past our best, then!:wah:

Smaug · Post by **Smaug** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:57 pm

Fancy a game of Zimmerball?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:57 pm

Not me. Though I no longer know what "best" means in this context.

Smaug · Post by **Smaug** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 5:04 pm

Ahso!;1481523 wrote: Not me. Though I no longer know what "best" means in this context.

Yeah, know what you mean. When were we "at our best"? When we were young and energetic but unwise, or now, when we're wiser, but less energetic?

I guess it's one of the only consolations for getting older.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 5:04 pm

Ahso!;1481520 wrote: I see!

Well religion cannot see this, certainly Christianity cannot see this; and they spread confusion.

BECAUSE God WANTS confusion spread, for now.

And that true knowledge is misunderstood. THAT is WHY you can see so much crap in religion, because its THERE! Meant to be like that.

Humanity did not always exist; evil did not always exist; this universe did not always exist; but they all are controlled existence! They have purpose. Meaning; evil has a purpose.

And we have a purpose; a future. And God wants that for sure.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 5:09 pm

Mickiel;1481525 wrote: Well religion cannot see this, certainly Christianity cannot see this; and they spread confusion.

BECAUSE God WANTS confusion spread, for now.

And that true knowledge is misunderstood. THAT is WHY you can see so much crap in religion, because its THERE! Meant to be like that.

Humanity did not always exist; evil did not always exist; this universe did not always exist; but they all are controlled existence! They have purpose. Meaning; evil has a purpose.

And we have a purpose; a future. And God wants that for sure.Sorry, Mickey, I'm trying to be helpful but I don't know what to say next, not being a therapist. Speaking of which, have you tried that avenue?

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 5:13 pm

Ahso!;1481526 wrote: Sorry, Mickey, I'm trying to be helpful but I don't know what to say next, not being a therapist. Speaking of which, have you tried that avenue?

This thread is not about your knowing what to say;

as long as I know what to say, the thread will be fine.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Sun Jun 28, 2015 4:15 am

Evil did not always exist because it is a Man Made thing. Is a Lion Evil because it kills cute, lovable Antelope to survive? Of course not. That's the way it is. Similarly, is a Dog Evil because it eats Meat? You might think not, yet there are those that force their pets (Dogs included) do live by a Vegetarian Diet.

"Evil" takes on so many different forms - usually determined by the Religious Fanatics. In Islam, it is Evil for a Woman to have any rights. In Buddhism / Hinduism it is Evil to take a life (any life, human or animal). In certain sects of Christianity it is Evil to drink alcohol, yet the drinking of wine is central to them all.

Right or Wrong is one thing. It simply means something that works or doesn't work within society. The terms used to define extremes of the same are artificial & used to create guilt & accordingly to control others.

Incidentally, regarding the light bulb, just having the electricity reach the light bulb is not enough to light it. It has to leave it as well. Furthermore, technically no-one knows what electricity is. No-one knows what it looks like or how it works. The only way we know it even exists is by observing the effects that it has on things & then being able to control it accordingly. Electricity is a power that can be used to make people's lives better - or it can be used to kill & torture them. May it, therefore be classed as Good or Evil?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sun Jun 28, 2015 4:35 am

I believe Mickey is saying that God is evil.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:55 am

Ahso!;1481540 wrote: I believe Mickey is saying that God is evil.

Your subtle attempts at meaningless manipulation are transparent, I see through them.

I said God created evil , controls it, uses it, then will eliminate it in a coming future.

I also said you're beliefs are spreading mess in this thread ; errors that add on to confusion; I also said God wants this to happen, so you are actually being used by God, without even knowing it;

which is common,. most people God actually uses, are unaware of it;

I think he prefers that. For now.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:36 am

that would make your God evil.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Sun Jun 28, 2015 2:37 pm

Ahso!;1481572 wrote: that would make your God evil.
As defined quite succinctly in your signature.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Sun Jun 28, 2015 3:43 pm

Ahso!;1481572 wrote: that would make your God evil.

Nothing could MAKE God evil, not even Atheist accusation.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sun Jun 28, 2015 4:07 pm

Mickiel;1481603 wrote: Nothing could MAKE God evil, not even Atheist accusation.Not that it matters in any real world sense but I certainly wouldn't want to spend eternity with the Ass Wipe you've described.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Sun Jun 28, 2015 4:17 pm

Ahso!;1481607 wrote: Not that it matters in any real world sense but I certainly wouldn't want to spend eternity with Ass Wipe you've described.

I would not want to spend eternity with the description of a god that you have either.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Sun Jun 28, 2015 4:30 pm

Ahso!;1481607 wrote: Not that it matters in any real world sense but I certainly wouldn't want to spend eternity with Ass Wipe you've described.

Not that it matters in any Atheist or Christian sense, but the reason why God exposed humanity to evil, is because he already knew about it, and wanted us to know; now we know how evil is, its purpose is fulfilled; when we get to know God and how good he is, none of us would want evil, as opposed to God.

The scope of what evil can do is incredible! Its destruction and agony. God could have created us and never allowed us to be exposed to sin and evil; but he did not WANT it done that way.

He wanted us conscious of it. Because he is conscious of it, and he wanted us to be like him.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 9:59 am

And God looked upon the earth and He saw that it was good. And God said "Sod this for a game of soldiers. This is no fun at all. How can can we play Good Cop, Bad Cop with no Badness?"

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 11:52 am

FourPart;1481683 wrote: And God looked upon the earth and He saw that it was good. And God said "Sod this for a game of soldiers. This is no fun at all. How can can we play Good Cop, Bad Cop with no Badness?"

That is exactly what the planted tree of the knowledge of good and evil is; two ways of conscious life.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:57 pm

Mickiel;1481694 wrote: That is exactly what the planted tree of the knowledge of good and evil is; two ways of conscious life.

The daily news is always full of both fruit.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Fri Jul 03, 2015 1:48 pm

Mickiel;1481804 wrote: The daily news is always full of both fruit.

And as we all know, the Daily News can take the same facts of a story & spin it to portray what they want it to portray, whereas another paper will take the same story & put an entire;y different spin on it. As a perfect example of this, just take pretty much any story from the Daily Mail, then do some Googling to find the full facts of the matter. However, you still get those gullible Daily Mirrors who believe it is there in black & white, then it has to be true. Then they say to their mates, "Here, did you hear about such & such...", and so on, until the story is changed altogether & bears no relevance to any part of the initial facts, spin or not.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Sun Jul 05, 2015 2:50 pm

FourPart;1481845 wrote: And as we all know, the Daily News can take the same facts of a story & spin it to portray what they want it to portray, whereas another paper will take the same story & put an entire;y different spin on it. As a perfect example of this, just take pretty much any story from the Daily Mail, then do some Googling to find the full facts of the matter. However, you still get those gullible Daily Mirrors who believe it is there in black & white, then it has to be true. Then they say to their mates, "Here, did you hear about such & such...", and so on, until the story is changed altogether & bears no relevance to any part of the initial facts, spin or not.

That's very true; yet what is one historical story that has always made the press? Religion. Look at Isis, the spin it has tarnished religion with is horrifying. It impresses its members to kill Americans during Ramadan, and God will reward them more! It makes its own propaganda films and has twisted Islam almost beyond repair. A serious spin. A senseless spin that many take serious as being a religious truth.

You try and tell one of them they are wrong, you risk being killed.

How do we even handle such things?

And these extremist believe God is real!

travelingjack · Post by **travelingjack** » Mon Jul 06, 2015 1:55 am

if he is real, he has a funny scene of humour !

Smaug · Post by **Smaug** » Mon Jul 06, 2015 2:50 am

travelingjack;1482123 wrote: if he is real, he has a funny scene of humour !

If he didn't have a sense of humour, what are we all doing still alive?:)

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Mon Jul 06, 2015 4:25 pm

travelingjack;1482123 wrote: if he is real, he has a funny scene of humour !

I think he has one. He made laughing Hyenas and blowfish.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:29 am

I believe that God, Allah, Great spirit etc. is an experiential reality. Some have been open to that and others not.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Sat Jul 25, 2015 5:37 am

I believe God is flat out reality.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:09 pm

God is a concept of something which we cannot really speak because we lack both the conceptualizing ability and the God language necessary. God is not a being. It is an experiential reality. It is the mystery behind life and the universe. In one sense we cannot even say God exists. It is beyond existence.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Thu Aug 27, 2015 10:39 am

Ted;1484137 wrote: God is a concept of something which we cannot really speak because we lack both the conceptualizing ability and the God language necessary. God is not a being. It is an experiential reality. It is the mystery behind life and the universe. In one sense we cannot even say God exists. It is beyond existence.

I agree that God is " Beyond existence"; that I agree with; but I believe he is some " Kind of a Being"; something; something real, but just not yet personally available to the world and its ability to accept his reality in a clear concise common seen and understood way.

Its something there; behind the scenes;

and its Very powerful, and very held back and impersonal to this world.

That is my opinion.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Thu Aug 27, 2015 11:35 am

Interesting at how many people equate belief in God as being essential to being moral.

Worldwide, Many See Belief in God as Essential to Morality | Pew Research Center

Now I certainly believe that a person who does not believe in God can be moral, its nonsense to think other wise. But interesting how so many people from so many different countries look at this.