dont know whats happening here on the FG / goodbye grumpy

Post by **my hermescourier** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 4:33 pm

have the gestapo taken over the FG or have you decided to just start coming down hard on the members.

i made the minor mistake of omitting to place a link on my thread and its not the first time as i write the column late at night susequently i get banned untill the 27th at 10pm by BM whom (i dont think he likes the column anyway) i then log on and find myself banned untill march 2015 where had i been sent a pm i would have added a link immediately

and to find also to my horror my freind oscar has also been banned probably for some petty rule being broken or daring to speak out or is it a political decision of anti far right .

anyway that said after carefull consideration over christmas i have decided to cease the column and terminate my membership permently and to that effect have contacted the FG and asked for my membership and details to be removed from the site and although i can still view this post as a guest i have no doubt once i post this my hermes courier will also be banned.

no doubt the mods will breathe a sigh of relief once i have gone but if i remember rightly we have been down this road before as members stopped posting on the FG because it had gone boring ???

many thanks to all those who viewed and commented on the column

and my apologies to those who will miss the column but i cannot and will not post under these conditions.

A.A grumpy

FG-administator · Post by **FG-administator** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 4:57 pm

I'm delighted to see your new account joining in other people's threads. It's more than Grumpy ever managed. My impression was he never responded to comments in threads he started, either, but that may just be sheer annoyance speaking.

Actually, you couldn't have "added a link immediately" as far as I'm aware - I'd understood that final post to have consisted of a conflated series of paragraphs from various sources, none of which were acknowledged.

FG-administator · Post by **FG-administator** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 5:04 pm

This may help - I sent it as a PM a few days ago to an American who PM'd me enquiring. The matter of citations applies solely to quoting the bulk of any copyright news story, since ForumGarden sometimes gets take-down notices from the copyright holders in that situation [...] Nobody knows what the end result of persistence would be, we have so far invariably checked the claim to be true and then either inserted an attribution ourselves or, more rarely, deleted material as requested, and nobody has subsequently taken out a court action against the site. A commercial organization can demonstrate the value of the original work, demonstrate that they own the work and get a court with appropriate jurisdiction to award financial compensation if we fail to respond adequately. It's not a criminal matter - the first paragraph of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tort gives a good background. Nobody could get the site closed but in theory the owners could be made bankrupt, there's no limited liability.

People on forums rarely quote a significant portion of a copyright text. You can include up to 10% of a novel, for example, if you're reviewing it, and still count as "fair use". What is not fair use is quoting over 50% of a news article from a current report, news agencies really hate that. Occasionally we get a member who just copies an entire news article and refuses to include where it came from, and when it happens time after time from that one member then we get seriously narked. What we like is people quoting the most relevant one or two sentences and then linking to the online copy. I have once, where no online copy existed and I thought the entire article important, copied an entire news report into ForumGarden, but it was a 30 year old article and I did explain why I'd done it and where it had come from.

We tend to slap plagiarists too, but that's a rare event.

Post by **my hermescourier** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 5:20 pm

FG;1470277 wrote: I'm delighted to see your new account joining in other people's threads. It's more than Grumpy ever managed. My impression was he never responded to comments in threads he started, either, but that may just be sheer annoyance speaking.

Actually, you couldn't have "added a link immediately" as far as I'm aware - I'd understood that final post to have consisted of a conflated series of paragraphs from various sources, none of which were acknowledged.

you do not seem to grasp the way the column worked

it was written usually 3 times weekly on a voluntary basis

i picked up a subject from the news which was legal as long as it had a link posted it in the inemitable style of AA grumpy and left the post open to be either viewed or comented on i made it a rule as post writer never to interfere in a debate just referee it

but as i stated made the minor mistake of omitting to place a link on my thread and its not the first time as i write the column late at night and get up to 500 views but only a few comments and a PM reminder would have be sufficiant its not as if i did it every column

now the FG has lost a regular and valuable piece of lively debate.

Post by **LarsMac** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 5:21 pm

Besides, it was only the 452nd time the admin had told you about providing links and such. What the heck? They can be terribly quick to take offense.

Post by **my hermescourier** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 5:24 pm

LarsMac;1470282 wrote: Besides, it was only the 452nd time the admin had told you about providing links and such. What the heck? They can be terribly quick to take offense.

is that a figure you plucked out of thin air reached by guess work or have you been counting

Post by **Betty Boop** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 5:42 pm

my hermescourier;1470284 wrote: is that a figure you plucked out of thin air reached by guess work or have you been counting

You had been messaged by me personally several times regarding your missing links.

When that didn't work I started you pulling you up in the thread to try to get you to abide by the rules. That still didn't work!

You were given time out recently to get you to acknowledge you have to provide links. That still didn't work!

What next?

How do we get you to acknowledge your sources?

Post by **LarsMac** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 5:52 pm

my hermescourier;1470284 wrote: is that a figure you plucked out of thin air reached by guess work or have you been counting

A slight exaggeration, probably, since I confess that I did not go back and count.

But really, how hard can it be? You have to go to the location to copy the info you quote, anyway. It is a simple task to pluck the link from the source at the same time.

I rather enjoy a lot of your posts, even when I don't agree with them.

FG-administator · Post by **FG-administator** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 6:06 pm

my hermescourier;1470281 wrote: i made it a rule as post writer never to interfere in a debate just referee itMight I just note in passing, not that it would appear to matter any longer: that in itself is a grotesquely impolite way of behaving on a discussion forum. If someone directly addresses you, it is polite to post a response rather than ignore it. No, you didn't, and I speak from grim repetitive experience.

FG-administator · Post by **FG-administator** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 6:11 pm

my hermescourier;1470281 wrote: i picked up a subject from the news which was legal as long as it had a link postedAnd, purely for the sake of the record, that's utter cobblers. Merely giving a link has nothing to do with making copy-text "legal". There are two demands - one is that you trim the blasted article to the relevant couple of sentences you're about to discuss, and the other is that you link back to the original article to show where your couple of sentences came from - to indicate who wrote what you've quoted, and to allow the reader to see the full context of the quoted section. Why you find this so impossible to understand I have no idea, but by Christ you've been told it often enough.

Post by **LarsMac** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 6:45 pm

my hermescourier;1470281 wrote: you do not seem to grasp the way the column worked

it was written usually 3 times weekly on a voluntary basis

i picked up a subject from the news which was legal as long as it had a link posted it in the inemitable style of AA grumpy and left the post open to be either viewed or comented on i made it a rule as post writer never to interfere in a debate just referee it

but as i stated made the minor mistake of omitting to place a link on my thread and its not the first time as i write the column late at night and get up to 500 views but only a few comments and a PM reminder would have be sufficiant its not as if i did it every column

now the FG has lost a regular and valuable piece of lively debate.

That triggers memory of a bible passage.

Ah yes, Romans, 12:3

For I say to every man that is among you, through the grace given unto me, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Or as Don Rickels put it, "Don't take yourself so seriously. Nobody else does."

G#Gill · Post by **G#Gill** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 6:46 pm

my hermescourier;1470268 wrote: have the gestapo taken over the FG or have you decided to just start coming down hard on the members.

i made the minor mistake of omitting to place a link on my thread and its not the first time as i write the column late at night susequently i get banned untill the 27th at 10pm by BM whom (i dont think he likes the column anyway) i then log on and find myself banned untill march 2015 where had i been sent a pm i would have added a link immediately

and to find also to my horror my freind oscar has also been banned probably for some petty rule being broken or daring to speak out or is it a political decision of anti far right .

anyway that said after carefull consideration over christmas i have decided to cease the column and terminate my membership permently and to that effect have contacted the FG and asked for my membership and details to be removed from the site and although i can still view this post as a guest i have no doubt once i post this my hermes courier will also be banned.

no doubt the mods will breathe a sigh of relief once i have gone but if i remember rightly we have been down this road before as members stopped posting on the FG because it had gone boring ???

many thanks to all those who viewed and commented on the column

and my apologies to those who will miss the column but i cannot and will not post under these conditions.

A.A grumpy

You are quite wrong there, Andy, Oscar was banned because one of the moderators reported a post of hers where she issued a very OTT threat against me, and I thought Oscar was a friend of mine ! She has since apologised to me by Private Message and admitted that what she said was OTT and totally uncalled for. Just to put you right about that !

P.S.

Had you been a 'paid up member' (Green), you would have been able to go into the 'Report a Post' thread and seen for yourself what and who and why, and also make your own comment if you wanted to !!!!! (and it's not expensive to be a 'paid up member' you can do it for a few months at a time if preferred !)

FG-administator · Post by **FG-administator** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 7:08 pm

my hermescourier;1470268 wrote: and my apologies to those who will miss the column but i cannot and will not post under these conditions.
If that's a promise, and not just a bit of histrionic drama-queen flouncing, I for one will heave a heartfelt sigh of relief.

G#Gill · Post by **G#Gill** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 7:27 pm

FG is there anybody on Forum Garden that you actually do like ? Seems to me you systematically bash one member after another ! I personally, cannot see the necessity for you to say............. "If that's a promise, and not just a bit of histrionic drama-queen flouncing, I for one will heave a heartfelt sigh of relief." You know that is so damn rude !!!!

FG-administator · Post by **FG-administator** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 7:34 pm

G#Gill;1470313 wrote: FG is there anybody on Forum Garden that you actually do like ? Seems to me you systematically bash one member after another ! I personally, cannot see the necessity for you to say............. "If that's a promise, and not just a bit of histrionic drama-queen flouncing, I for one will heave a heartfelt sigh of relief." You know that is so damn rude !!!!You haven't spent years offering good reasons why the putrid bile in the opening post of thread after thread is plain wrong, impossible or lying by omission, only to be deliberately ignored and bypassed by the person who copied the shock-jock tabloid filth onto the site in the first place. A discussion board is meant for discussion, not as a fly-poster's paradise, and all Andy ever did was fly-post. If this mode of filling the Internet with twaddle and then refusing to discuss it is just that little bit diminished, then hallelujah.

As to why I feel entitled to be rude, it may have something to do with "have the gestapo taken over the FG". You'll find that at the start of this thread.

G#Gill · Post by **G#Gill** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 8:11 pm

Well, since you re-state that point, maybe a lot of Andy's OPs are 'twaddle' and there is no doubt that he doesn't seem to take further part in the thread that he has OP'd, which as you put it makes it seem like a 'fly-poster's paradise', I tend to agree ! However, I still feel there is no need for you to be so rude !

I believe I did suggest that every time anybody posts a quote of fairly large quantity (more than a couple of sentences, I believe) without giving credit to the author/source, then that particular OP should be deleted as soon as possible (with a note from the moderator in it's place as explanation) to protect Forum Garden. By doing this the perpetrator, hopefully, should catch on to the rules and regulations !

G#Gill · Post by **G#Gill** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 8:45 pm

You added a bit to your post No. 15, after I had posted my No.16 reply...................a sort of after thought? Using the 'Gestapo' quote from the beginning of the thread as an entitlement to be so rude in your post No.13 could make you seem to be falling down to his level !

Post by **LarsMac** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 9:14 pm

All I know is that if I were the principle admin of a forum, and a new user used the word "gestapo" to refer to me in his very first post, I would have already trashed his posts and banned him and his IP from the board.

Kind of the Darth Vader management style.

Sometimes, I think reason is overrated.

I doff my hat to FG for his patience and self control.

Fuzzy · Post by **Fuzzy** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 2:16 am

I can't believe what I'm reading. Is there a problem?

Has Grumpy really left? If so, perhaps Happy could take his place.

Dopey would also be welcome. Oops, he's already here.

Post by **Betty Boop** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 3:51 am

Grumps is banned, this thread needs closing as hermes shouldn't be here either due to the person behind the names continuously breaking the rules. When you are banned you are not meant to come back as someone else with a sole purpose to insult the management and mods.

Something tells me Grumps/hermes STILL does not understand the seriousness of not putting links in his posts, which wouldn't be so bad if it were only the odd thread he omitted to do so. Sadly, every single thread he posts he uses huge amounts of other peoples words.

FG-administator · Post by **FG-administator** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 4:03 am

I have spent years trying to persuade Andy to go and pollute some other part of the Internet with his ravings, but he still persists in thinking he's welcome on ForumGarden. The site is a privately owned forum and he continually breaks the terms and conditions here. Every time he posts the entire content of a tabloid news article, whether he says where it comes from or not, he puts the owner of this site at jeopardy of financial loss, potentially of bankruptcy - there are reasons for the rules on how much of an article can be quoted and whether it needs attribution. He absolutely refuses to listen to what he's told. The site would be grateful if he'd actually do what he threatens, and leave permanently - he's had accounts closed by the moderators and been permanently banned often enough but this simple message won't penetrate.

FG-administator · Post by **FG-administator** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 4:06 am

G#Gill;1470318 wrote: Using the 'Gestapo' quote from the beginning of the thread as an entitlement to be so rude in your post No.13 could make you seem to be falling down to his level !
No, Gill, it couldn't. That's just your natural bias showing again. Hitch it up before it tangles round your ankles, it's unsightly.

Post by **Betty Boop** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:34 am

I will re open the thread but let's keep it insult free please.

Post by **LarsMac** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:44 am

shoulda stayed closed when I closed it last night.

Post by **Betty Boop** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:07 am

LarsMac;1470348 wrote: shoulda stayed closed when I closed it last night.

Apparently FG took it out of the mod area last night, I wasn't even aware that it had been there. Did you put it there?

I think the general consensus is that spats need to happen out front instead of behind the bike sheds. Years of that did this forum no good at all.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:10 am

And without Administrator Approved membership it seems that bans are pretty ineffective.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 11:08 am

G#Gill;1470318 wrote: You added a bit to your post No. 15, after I had posted my No.16 reply...................a sort of after thought? Using the 'Gestapo' quote from the beginning of the thread as an entitlement to be so rude in your post No.13 could make you seem to be falling down to his level !

This isn't my fight and I don't even know the contestants but "have the gestapo taken over the FG" is hardly an insult .... personal or otherwise. I really cannot see anyone taking offence to it. There must be some rather fragile egos a-foot.

G#Gill · Post by **G#Gill** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 11:12 am

FG;1470332 wrote: No, Gill, it couldn't. That's just your natural bias showing again. Hitch it up before it tangles round your ankles, it's unsightly.

OK, yes, Andy was being particularly unthinking and aggressive saying stuff like that.

Maybe it's because I have not been reading all his threads that I have not seen the apparently constant non-conformation to the site rules and regulations. As I have said before, I really believe an instant deletion of a post that contravenes the rules of this site in the manner in which 'Grumpy' contravened the rules, and an explanation inserted in it's place by the deleting moderator could possibly minimise repeats and also offer a warning to other members to be more careful. It also removes the offending post from the site's front page !

Not sure what FG means by my "natural bias", perhaps he would explain ? However, he did give me a good laugh over his last sentence in his post No.22.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 11:24 am

Posted by hermescourier (bet you're glad it's not citylink courier)

have the gestapo taken over the FG or have you decided to just start coming down hard on the members.

Slightly ironic considering the right wing nonsense you tend to come out with.

i made the minor mistake of omitting to place a link on my thread and its not the first time as i write the column late at night susequently i get banned untill the 27th at 10pm by BM whom (i dont think he likes the column anyway) i then log on and find myself banned untill march 2015 where had i been sent a pm i would have added a link immediately

Once is minor, even twice or thrice every time you post is a bit more serious, imo it's either deliberate or you really are pretty thick and don't understand the possible impact or simply just don't care. Can't decide which is more likely. I think you like to play the part of the victim "help help I'm being opppressed". from monty python and the holy grail if yu are wondering

Never mind I can look forward to living in a free socialist scotland - happy new year to you you miserable giot.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 12:52 pm

The problem is that after a while it becomes a game - "How long can I get a posting to stay up before it gets deleted?"

By the way, has anyone else noticed how, be it intentionally or not, this has turned into a typical one of his threads, where he starts it up then disappears?

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 12:52 pm

gmc;1470354 wrote: ..... I can look forward to living in a free socialist scotland - happy new year to you you miserable giot.

Now that was the funniest thing I've seen since reading the final line of "The Reticence of Lady Anne"! :yh_rotfl

FG-administator · Post by **FG-administator** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 1:30 pm

FourPart;1470350 wrote: And without Administrator Approved membership it seems that bans are pretty ineffective.

How many permanent bans have you seen us make? One, that I can think of, and that's worked effectively. How many members have you seen temporarily banned? Two? Those temporary bans worked effectively as well. Have I missed anyone? I exclude spammers, they're a different matter.

At the moment, if someone rejoins then the Mods know it's a banned ex-member rejoining. If we Administrator Approved every new member then the person would just keep trying alternative proxies and anonymity routes until they slipped past the checks. As it is, there's nothing more frustrating to such a person than to make forty posts and then get their new account banned for attempting to break the existing ban on their original account. Few keep trying after that, and we're finally rid of them.

As for Andy's new account, technically as a member under a ban we ought to fling him off without a second thought. Given that he's using it to discuss his previous behaviour I'm happy to leave it active. We have, after all, his sworn oath that he "cannot and will not post" unless we change the rules here, and we're definitely not going to do that. I for one intend to hold him to it.

I'm delighted to have got this far without once comparing his breaches to those of Truthbringer.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 1:32 pm

High Threshold;1470358 wrote: Now that was the funniest thing I've seen since reading the final line of "The Reticence of Lady Anne"! :yh_rotfl

I just found the story & read it & WOW, a surprise! Unexpected!

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 2:13 pm

my hermescourier;1470268 wrote: have the gestapo taken over the FG or have you decided to just start coming down hard on the members.

i made the minor mistake of omitting to place a link on my thread and its not the first time as i write the column late at night susequently i get banned untill the 27th at 10pm by BM whom (i dont think he likes the column anyway) i then log on and find myself banned untill march 2015 where had i been sent a pm i would have added a link immediately

and to find also to my horror my freind oscar has also been banned probably for some petty rule being broken or daring to speak out or is it a political decision of anti far right .

anyway that said after carefull consideration over christmas i have decided to cease the column and terminate my membership permently and to that effect have contacted the FG and asked for my membership and details to be removed from the site and although i can still view this post as a guest i have no doubt once i post this my hermes courier will also be banned.

no doubt the mods will breathe a sigh of relief once i have gone but if i remember rightly we have been down this road before as members stopped posting on the FG because it had gone boring ???

many thanks to all those who viewed and commented on the column

and my apologies to those who will miss the column but i cannot and will not post under these conditions.

A.A grumpy

Andy,

I banned you for a second time for exactly the reason I banned you the first time failure to provide attribution to quoted text. The first ban came on the back or repeated warnings that you both ignored and dismissed as petty bureaucracy that should not apply to you.

As I told you at the time, any further offences will attract an ever increasing scale of ban - the first one was for one week and this one is for two weeks (ending on the 3rd of Jan, not the 1st of March as you seem to think) and, if I have to issue a third ban it will be for four weeks. A fourth ban will be permanent as you will, be then, have shown conclusively that you have no intention of complying with the terms of service.

This is not petty bureaucracy, it is for the protection of FG. I have had too many instances of aggrieved copyright holders threatening to take me to court and a single successful prosecution could close the Garden permanently. I will not allow you or anybody else to put the Garden at risk for such a stupid reason.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 3:31 pm

FG;1470362 wrote: ........ We have, after all, his sworn oath that he "cannot and will not post" unless we change the rules here .......

:wah: :wah: :wah:

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Dec 29, 2014 10:27 am

G#Gill;1470297 wrote: You are quite wrong there, Andy, Oscar was banned because one of the moderators reported a post of hers where she issued a very OTT threat against me, and I thought Oscar was a friend of mine ! She has since apologised to me by Private Message and admitted that what she said was OTT and totally uncalled for. Just to put you right about that !

) If you wish to discuss me In my absence then please at least state the facts. You private messaged me and also made a new thread telling me I had a private message from you. I replied to you. That's different to my messaging you. Now, leave It here. I agreed I said was below the belt but you seem to thrive on this stuff. End of.