The Ukraine conflict
The Ukraine conflict
LarsMac;1461459 wrote: True enough. and in written media, often the emphasis depends on the reader.
Which is very evident in the exchanges between yourself and HT.
Which is very evident in the exchanges between yourself and HT.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
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The Ukraine conflict
LarsMac;1461446 wrote: Funny, I was just watching a CNN report about the fighting in Eastern Ukraine.
So you really don't know what CNN is reporting, I bet.
Weird when a conversation just depends upon whose propaganda you listen to.
And, what are they reporting about the Ukraine? I admit that I haven't been able to stomach watching CNN for many years now for a number of reasons; but, the last time I tuned in a few days ago, I saw a bullshit 2 min video intro to one of their usual pundit pieces about how 'Russia has attempted to destabilize the Ukraine since the fall of the Yanukovitch Government' as the lead-in to the debate over whether Obama is tough enough to deal with Putin, and related horseshit designed to encourage more war spending on behalf of the military contractors that keep that sad sack of a "news" network still on the air....so, what have I missed?
Today, CNN is running with continuous coverage on the theme that Russia's mobilization exercises on their side of the border are the pretext for an invasion of the Ukraine. No mention of the death and destruction caused by the Government in Kiev, which has been fully backed and even demanded by their U.S. handlers. They have committed clear war crimes in their war against the civilian population that has been dressed up as "counter-insurgency." And the U.S. Government is complicit in their war crimes, since they handpicked and payed for this Government and have been demanding a war against the East, under threat of cutting off promised IMF loans and aid money! Nor have I noticed any CNN report yet on the refugee crisis caused by the western government as they have forced most of the populations of the cities of Lugansk and Donetsk out of the cities, many of them now living in tent cities on the Russian side of the border....where is CNN?
So you really don't know what CNN is reporting, I bet.
Weird when a conversation just depends upon whose propaganda you listen to.
And, what are they reporting about the Ukraine? I admit that I haven't been able to stomach watching CNN for many years now for a number of reasons; but, the last time I tuned in a few days ago, I saw a bullshit 2 min video intro to one of their usual pundit pieces about how 'Russia has attempted to destabilize the Ukraine since the fall of the Yanukovitch Government' as the lead-in to the debate over whether Obama is tough enough to deal with Putin, and related horseshit designed to encourage more war spending on behalf of the military contractors that keep that sad sack of a "news" network still on the air....so, what have I missed?
Today, CNN is running with continuous coverage on the theme that Russia's mobilization exercises on their side of the border are the pretext for an invasion of the Ukraine. No mention of the death and destruction caused by the Government in Kiev, which has been fully backed and even demanded by their U.S. handlers. They have committed clear war crimes in their war against the civilian population that has been dressed up as "counter-insurgency." And the U.S. Government is complicit in their war crimes, since they handpicked and payed for this Government and have been demanding a war against the East, under threat of cutting off promised IMF loans and aid money! Nor have I noticed any CNN report yet on the refugee crisis caused by the western government as they have forced most of the populations of the cities of Lugansk and Donetsk out of the cities, many of them now living in tent cities on the Russian side of the border....where is CNN?
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The Ukraine conflict
High Threshold;1461463 wrote: I cannot agree more. The use of words, the "fabrication" of words, the mixing of words, and the emphsis of words (in turn) have played a deadly role recently:
The problem is that the governing powers have realized that if they can get away with a lie long enough for the issue to be off the regular news cycle, they are free and clear! Bush II and his evil puppet master - Cheney, discovered that they could just keep shifting and changing excuses and most of the comatose public would just follow along. * If I'm not mistaken, the final tally for Invasion of Iraq excuses reached six.
The same thing happened when Kerry attempted to lie America into an air war in Syria using the false claim of "knowing" that the Syrian Government was behind a poison gas attack...the story was never followed up by anyone in the MSM except for the NY Times Seymour Hersch; and he had to publish his findings in the London Review of Books....might as well fall off the face of the Earth! Almost nobody in America who wasn't following foreign or alternative media even heard of it, because Hersch's employer and the rest of the MSM wouldn't talk about it.
And, back to Dubya - I noticed under your Youtube clip that the first commenter asked 'why Bush was never prosecuted for war crimes?' The answer is plain and simple: because the incoming Obama Administration refused to prosecute Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, or any war criminals directly connected with instigating and invasion or using torture. Obama said:"we want to look forward, and not backward," which meant that nobody of consequence in a previous administration will ever be prosecuted for any crimes. According to one legal historian (name slips my mind at the moment), the precedent was set when Gerald Ford pardoned Richard Nixon for known and unknown crimes committed while in Office. Ever since then, the expectation is that the next president....regardless of Party, will also give the last one the get out of jail free card.
The problem is that the governing powers have realized that if they can get away with a lie long enough for the issue to be off the regular news cycle, they are free and clear! Bush II and his evil puppet master - Cheney, discovered that they could just keep shifting and changing excuses and most of the comatose public would just follow along. * If I'm not mistaken, the final tally for Invasion of Iraq excuses reached six.
The same thing happened when Kerry attempted to lie America into an air war in Syria using the false claim of "knowing" that the Syrian Government was behind a poison gas attack...the story was never followed up by anyone in the MSM except for the NY Times Seymour Hersch; and he had to publish his findings in the London Review of Books....might as well fall off the face of the Earth! Almost nobody in America who wasn't following foreign or alternative media even heard of it, because Hersch's employer and the rest of the MSM wouldn't talk about it.
And, back to Dubya - I noticed under your Youtube clip that the first commenter asked 'why Bush was never prosecuted for war crimes?' The answer is plain and simple: because the incoming Obama Administration refused to prosecute Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, or any war criminals directly connected with instigating and invasion or using torture. Obama said:"we want to look forward, and not backward," which meant that nobody of consequence in a previous administration will ever be prosecuted for any crimes. According to one legal historian (name slips my mind at the moment), the precedent was set when Gerald Ford pardoned Richard Nixon for known and unknown crimes committed while in Office. Ever since then, the expectation is that the next president....regardless of Party, will also give the last one the get out of jail free card.
The Ukraine conflict
recovering conservative;1461473 wrote: And, what are they reporting about the Ukraine? I admit that I haven't been able to stomach watching CNN for many years now for a number of reasons; but, the last time I tuned in a few days ago, I saw a bullshit 2 min video intro to one of their usual pundit pieces about how 'Russia has attempted to destabilize the Ukraine since the fall of the Yanukovitch Government' as the lead-in to the debate over whether Obama is tough enough to deal with Putin, and related horseshit designed to encourage more war spending on behalf of the military contractors that keep that sad sack of a "news" network still on the air....so, what have I missed?
Dunno, really. I only see CNN when it is running on the TV in the breakfast area of a hotel where I am staying, or on the rare occasion that I run across it while channel surfing.
I tend to avoid TV news, in general.
recovering conservative;1461473 wrote: Today, CNN is running with continuous coverage on the theme that Russia's mobilization exercises on their side of the border are the pretext for an invasion of the Ukraine. No mention of the death and destruction caused by the Government in Kiev, which has been fully backed and even demanded by their U.S. handlers. They have committed clear war crimes in their war against the civilian population that has been dressed up as "counter-insurgency." And the U.S. Government is complicit in their war crimes, since they handpicked and payed for this Government and have been demanding a war against the East, under threat of cutting off promised IMF loans and aid money! Nor have I noticed any CNN report yet on the refugee crisis caused by the western government as they have forced most of the populations of the cities of Lugansk and Donetsk out of the cities, many of them now living in tent cities on the Russian side of the border....where is CNN?
You got me. Like I said, I don't pay that much attention to TV news. Whether it comes from CNN, Fox, BBC, Russia Today, Aljazeera, Univision, or The View.
I get all my unfounded rumors at the local diner.
Dunno, really. I only see CNN when it is running on the TV in the breakfast area of a hotel where I am staying, or on the rare occasion that I run across it while channel surfing.
I tend to avoid TV news, in general.
recovering conservative;1461473 wrote: Today, CNN is running with continuous coverage on the theme that Russia's mobilization exercises on their side of the border are the pretext for an invasion of the Ukraine. No mention of the death and destruction caused by the Government in Kiev, which has been fully backed and even demanded by their U.S. handlers. They have committed clear war crimes in their war against the civilian population that has been dressed up as "counter-insurgency." And the U.S. Government is complicit in their war crimes, since they handpicked and payed for this Government and have been demanding a war against the East, under threat of cutting off promised IMF loans and aid money! Nor have I noticed any CNN report yet on the refugee crisis caused by the western government as they have forced most of the populations of the cities of Lugansk and Donetsk out of the cities, many of them now living in tent cities on the Russian side of the border....where is CNN?
You got me. Like I said, I don't pay that much attention to TV news. Whether it comes from CNN, Fox, BBC, Russia Today, Aljazeera, Univision, or The View.
I get all my unfounded rumors at the local diner.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
The Ukraine conflict
The Shrinking Cauldron – The Surrender of the 72nd Brigade
Posted by Gleb Bazov ⋅ August 4, 2014
The Shrinking Cauldron – The Surrender of the 72nd Brigade | SLAVYANGRAD.org
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August 04, 2014
More than 400 Ukrainian troops have been allowed to cross into Russia after requesting sanctuary. It’s the largest, but not the first, case of desertion into Russia by Ukrainian soldiers involved in Kiev’s military crackdown in the east of the country.
Ukraine. | Slavic Nationalist Forum
Posted by Gleb Bazov ⋅ August 4, 2014
The Shrinking Cauldron – The Surrender of the 72nd Brigade | SLAVYANGRAD.org
----------------------
August 04, 2014
More than 400 Ukrainian troops have been allowed to cross into Russia after requesting sanctuary. It’s the largest, but not the first, case of desertion into Russia by Ukrainian soldiers involved in Kiev’s military crackdown in the east of the country.
Ukraine. | Slavic Nationalist Forum
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The Ukraine conflict
recovering conservative;1461474 wrote: The problem is that the governing powers have realized that if they can get away with a lie long enough for the issue to be off the regular news cycle, they are free and clear! Bush II and his evil puppet master - Cheney, discovered that they could just keep shifting and changing excuses and most of the comatose public would just follow along. * If I'm not mistaken, the final tally for Invasion of Iraq excuses reached six.
I am sure the realization & discovery was made a long time ago .... specifically when the allies strode into still-smoldering Nazi Germany and swept up the document-strewn, office floor. Read my temporary signature below.
I am sure the realization & discovery was made a long time ago .... specifically when the allies strode into still-smoldering Nazi Germany and swept up the document-strewn, office floor. Read my temporary signature below.
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The Ukraine conflict
LarsMac;1461475 wrote: I get all my unfounded rumors at the local diner.
I find the patrons at the "Ten Pin Bowling Alley Snack & Tap" on Saturday night (once they've had a few) is an excellent source of useful, reliable information on world events. But they're not too good at predicting the weather, I'm afraid.
I find the patrons at the "Ten Pin Bowling Alley Snack & Tap" on Saturday night (once they've had a few) is an excellent source of useful, reliable information on world events. But they're not too good at predicting the weather, I'm afraid.

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The Ukraine conflict
High Threshold;1462071 wrote: I am sure the realization & discovery was made a long time ago .... specifically when the allies strode into still-smoldering Nazi Germany and swept up the document-strewn, office floor. Read my temporary signature below.---“The only difference between Hitler and Bush is that Hitler was elected.
Wrong & quite naive. The comparison is not only Not True, it is Lazy.
Wrong & quite naive. The comparison is not only Not True, it is Lazy.
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The Ukraine conflict
AnneBoleyn;1462106 wrote: ... not only Not True ....
What exactly does that mean?
What exactly does that mean?
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The Ukraine conflict
High Threshold;1462108 wrote: What exactly does that mean?
It means that is not the only distinction. Bush was nothing like Hitler. You are overreaching. Big Time.
It means that is not the only distinction. Bush was nothing like Hitler. You are overreaching. Big Time.
The Ukraine conflict
AnneBoleyn;1462150 wrote: It means that is not the only distinction. Bush was nothing like Hitler. You are overreaching. Big Time.
Yeah - Hitler was actually quite intelligent.
Yeah - Hitler was actually quite intelligent.
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The Ukraine conflict
AnneBoleyn;1462150 wrote: It means that is not the only distinction. Bush was nothing like Hitler. You are overreaching. Big Time.
First of all I was quoting Kurt Vonnegut Jr. That's why it's in “quotes. But, let's see .¦..
* Hitler shot a few men, dressed their bodies in Polish uniforms and dumped inside German territory. He claimed they were shot during a Polish invasion. So he attacked Poland on a pure lie of eminent danger. Bush falsified proof and indications of WMD's and specific connections with Al Qaida so he could invade Irak.
Hitler 1 : Bush 1
* Hitler blamed the woes of the world upon the Jews, saying they were about to take over the whole world. Bush blamed his problems on the Muslims and claimed they were about to take over the whole world.
Hitler 2 : Bush 2.
* Hitler started removing civil liberties from the population saying it was in the interest of national security. Bush did exactly the same thing.
Hitler 3 : Bush 3.
* Hitler didn't give a frappé about international law and he broke all kinds of treaties and illegally invaded other nations. Bush told the UN to F off and invaded Irak illegally.
Hitler 4 : Bush 4.
* Hitler couldn't speak English very well. Bush, well .....
Hitler 5 : Bush 5.
Gosh. I could write down at least a dozen more similarities between Hitler and Bush. Do you want me to?
First of all I was quoting Kurt Vonnegut Jr. That's why it's in “quotes. But, let's see .¦..
* Hitler shot a few men, dressed their bodies in Polish uniforms and dumped inside German territory. He claimed they were shot during a Polish invasion. So he attacked Poland on a pure lie of eminent danger. Bush falsified proof and indications of WMD's and specific connections with Al Qaida so he could invade Irak.
Hitler 1 : Bush 1
* Hitler blamed the woes of the world upon the Jews, saying they were about to take over the whole world. Bush blamed his problems on the Muslims and claimed they were about to take over the whole world.
Hitler 2 : Bush 2.
* Hitler started removing civil liberties from the population saying it was in the interest of national security. Bush did exactly the same thing.
Hitler 3 : Bush 3.
* Hitler didn't give a frappé about international law and he broke all kinds of treaties and illegally invaded other nations. Bush told the UN to F off and invaded Irak illegally.
Hitler 4 : Bush 4.
* Hitler couldn't speak English very well. Bush, well .....
Hitler 5 : Bush 5.
Gosh. I could write down at least a dozen more similarities between Hitler and Bush. Do you want me to?
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The Ukraine conflict
If you are quoting someone, HT, the proper thing to do is to credit their name. Quotation marks are not enough. Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. is wrong. You gave similarities, but humans are similar to apes, so..........So What? Hitler was in a class by himself & it cheapens his monstrosities to compare him to minor characters, as Bush is in this case. I stand by what I say, your sarcasm is overreaching & wrong in this particular instance. IMO.
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The Ukraine conflict
AnneBoleyn;1462191 wrote: If you are quoting someone, HT, the proper thing to do is to credit their name. Quotation marks are not enough.
When the FG signature-box allows unlimited space then I'll consider it. But does MY lack of Kurt Vonnegut's name in my signature discredit what HE said?
AnneBoleyn;1462191 wrote: Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. is wrong. You gave similarities, but humans are similar to apes, so..........So What? Hitler was in a class by himself & it cheapens his monstrosities to compare him to minor characters, as Bush is in this case. I stand by what I say, your sarcasm is overreaching & wrong in this particular instance. IMO.
If Kurt Vonnegut is "wrong", and my appreciation for his statement has been misled, then you'll have to convince me of the fault with your own words ..... or perhaps you can impress me with a quote by someone else who said the opposite?
When the FG signature-box allows unlimited space then I'll consider it. But does MY lack of Kurt Vonnegut's name in my signature discredit what HE said?
AnneBoleyn;1462191 wrote: Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. is wrong. You gave similarities, but humans are similar to apes, so..........So What? Hitler was in a class by himself & it cheapens his monstrosities to compare him to minor characters, as Bush is in this case. I stand by what I say, your sarcasm is overreaching & wrong in this particular instance. IMO.
If Kurt Vonnegut is "wrong", and my appreciation for his statement has been misled, then you'll have to convince me of the fault with your own words ..... or perhaps you can impress me with a quote by someone else who said the opposite?
The Ukraine conflict
Can I also point out the spelling is IRAQ.
- High Threshold
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The Ukraine conflict
FourPart;1462215 wrote: Can I also point out the spelling is IRAQ.
Not in Swedish, it isn't.
BTW: Do you spell the capital city of Japan - TOKIO or TOKYO?
Not in Swedish, it isn't.
BTW: Do you spell the capital city of Japan - TOKIO or TOKYO?
The Ukraine conflict
Personally I'd spell it Tokyo.
- High Threshold
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The Ukraine conflict
FourPart;1462221 wrote: Personally I'd spell it Tokyo.
Personally? You're not sure are you. :wah:
Personally? You're not sure are you. :wah:
The Ukraine conflict
High Threshold;1462222 wrote: Personally? You're not sure are you. :wah:
I'm sure, but I can't answer for the Swedish.
I'm sure, but I can't answer for the Swedish.
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The Ukraine conflict
High Threshold;1462199 wrote: When the FG signature-box allows unlimited space then I'll consider it. But does MY lack of Kurt Vonnegut's name in my signature discredit what HE said?
If Kurt Vonnegut is "wrong", and my appreciation for his statement has been misled, then you'll have to convince me of the fault with your own words ..... or perhaps you can impress me with a quote by someone else who said the opposite?
I don't really try to convince anyone of anything anymore. My only issue is a woman's Rights over her own person. I have my opinion, you have your opinion, we're both right sometimes & wrong sometimes. A quote by "someone else" doesn't justify anything. Your own words are as important as his. So are mine.
If Kurt Vonnegut is "wrong", and my appreciation for his statement has been misled, then you'll have to convince me of the fault with your own words ..... or perhaps you can impress me with a quote by someone else who said the opposite?
I don't really try to convince anyone of anything anymore. My only issue is a woman's Rights over her own person. I have my opinion, you have your opinion, we're both right sometimes & wrong sometimes. A quote by "someone else" doesn't justify anything. Your own words are as important as his. So are mine.
The Ukraine conflict
AnneBoleyn;1462249 wrote: I don't really try to convince anyone of anything anymore. My only issue is a woman's Rights over her own person. I have my opinion, you have your opinion, we're both right sometimes & wrong sometimes. A quote by "someone else" doesn't justify anything. Your own words are as important as his. So are mine.
Spot on!
Spot on!
The Ukraine conflict
Antiwar Protests Spreading in Ukraine as Government Wages All-Out War in the Southeast
August 3 2014
The protests are paralleled by a rise in Ukraine army desertions and refusals of men and women to heed conscription orders.
Army in trouble
Exact numbers of army desertions are not known and are the subject of considerable debate and counter-debate. This website report, for example, publishes a purported Ukraine army report saying that close to 3,500 soldiers deserted in the third week of July and that 1,600 soldiers died and 4,700 were wounded in that same time. Sources in Russia say the documents it cites are not authentic.
Underground Serbian Cafe: Antiwar Protests Spreading in Ukraine as Government Wages All-Out War in the Southeast
August 3 2014
The protests are paralleled by a rise in Ukraine army desertions and refusals of men and women to heed conscription orders.
Army in trouble
Exact numbers of army desertions are not known and are the subject of considerable debate and counter-debate. This website report, for example, publishes a purported Ukraine army report saying that close to 3,500 soldiers deserted in the third week of July and that 1,600 soldiers died and 4,700 were wounded in that same time. Sources in Russia say the documents it cites are not authentic.
Underground Serbian Cafe: Antiwar Protests Spreading in Ukraine as Government Wages All-Out War in the Southeast
The Ukraine conflict
Captured Kiev soldiers, military hardware on display in Donetsk
August 25 2014
August 25 2014
The Ukraine conflict
Pictures of victims died from their own government force. News censored by West main stream media.
Our ‘Enemies’ in Ukraine Speak
By Eric Zuesse
Global Research, August 22, 2014
America’s ‘news’ media do not let the victims of Ukraine’s civil war — the people who are dying and being driven out from the southeastern regions of that country by the new Ukrainian Government — speak, and tell their story.
Our ‘Enemies’ in Ukraine Speak | Global Research
Our ‘Enemies’ in Ukraine Speak
By Eric Zuesse
Global Research, August 22, 2014
America’s ‘news’ media do not let the victims of Ukraine’s civil war — the people who are dying and being driven out from the southeastern regions of that country by the new Ukrainian Government — speak, and tell their story.
Our ‘Enemies’ in Ukraine Speak | Global Research
The Ukraine conflict
Russian NGOs demand investigation of massacres near Ukraine's Donetsk
September 24,
Many of the victims are said to have been shot in the head at point-blank range
MOSCOW, September 24. /ITAR-TASS/. Russian non-governmental organizations are demanding a comprehensive investigation of the mass graves containing bodies of civilians near Donetsk. Local militias found the graves on September 23. Many of the victims are said to have been shot in the head at point-blank range. Just two days ago that territory had been under the control of Kiev’s forces. Now it will be explored most thoroughly. Militias say they have discovered other graves, too, which will remain unexcavated for the time being.
ITAR-TASS: World - Russian NGOs demand investigation of massacres near Ukraine's Donetsk
September 24,
Many of the victims are said to have been shot in the head at point-blank range
MOSCOW, September 24. /ITAR-TASS/. Russian non-governmental organizations are demanding a comprehensive investigation of the mass graves containing bodies of civilians near Donetsk. Local militias found the graves on September 23. Many of the victims are said to have been shot in the head at point-blank range. Just two days ago that territory had been under the control of Kiev’s forces. Now it will be explored most thoroughly. Militias say they have discovered other graves, too, which will remain unexcavated for the time being.
ITAR-TASS: World - Russian NGOs demand investigation of massacres near Ukraine's Donetsk
The Ukraine conflict
Losing Credibility: The IMF’s New Cold War Loan to Ukraine
September 9, 2014
By Michael Hudson
In April 2014, fresh from riots in Maidan Square and the February 22 coup, and less than a month before the May 2 massacre in Odessa, the IMF approved a $17 billion loan program to Ukraine’s junta. Normal IMF practice is to lend only up to twice a country’s quote in one year. This was eight times as high.
Four months later, on August 29, just as Kiev began losing its attempt at ethnic cleansing against the eastern Donbas region, the IMF signed off on the first loan ever to a side engaged in a civil war, not to mention rife with insider capital flight and a collapsing balance of payments. Based on fictitiously trouble-free projections of the ability to pay, the loan supported Ukraine’s hernia currency long enough to enable the oligarchs’ banks to move their money quickly into Western hard-currency accounts before the hernia plunged further and was worth even fewer euros and dollars.
Losing Credibility: The IMF’s New Cold War Loan to Ukraine | Michael Hudson
September 9, 2014
By Michael Hudson
In April 2014, fresh from riots in Maidan Square and the February 22 coup, and less than a month before the May 2 massacre in Odessa, the IMF approved a $17 billion loan program to Ukraine’s junta. Normal IMF practice is to lend only up to twice a country’s quote in one year. This was eight times as high.
Four months later, on August 29, just as Kiev began losing its attempt at ethnic cleansing against the eastern Donbas region, the IMF signed off on the first loan ever to a side engaged in a civil war, not to mention rife with insider capital flight and a collapsing balance of payments. Based on fictitiously trouble-free projections of the ability to pay, the loan supported Ukraine’s hernia currency long enough to enable the oligarchs’ banks to move their money quickly into Western hard-currency accounts before the hernia plunged further and was worth even fewer euros and dollars.
Losing Credibility: The IMF’s New Cold War Loan to Ukraine | Michael Hudson