The hypocrisy of Britain's multiculturalism

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sat Jun 21, 2014 4:53 am

Silvio Dante;1458055 wrote: I hugely admire how the British People have always welcomed people of other races and belief systems to their country once they were willing to make a positive contribution.

However this welcome has been spat on by sections within Sunni (in the main) Islamic communities who take all of the benefits Britain has to offer while completely disrespecting British, Western European values of free speech, equality and mutual respect.

The clowns in UKIP tried to start a hate campaign against Romanians. Give me a street full of Romanians over one Radical Sunni everytime...

They're turning on themselves now here In the UK.

Radical Sunni Islamists face jail for attack on group of Shi'ites 'in first case of Muslim sectarian violence in Britain' | Mail Online

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Sat Jun 21, 2014 7:18 am

Just now passed by one of the major town squares not 15 minutes ago where bands of Irakis are beginning to gather. Lots of huge Iraki flags, one Swedish. A couple of signs stating, “No to Terroism and one, “TERRORISTS do not touch our Sweden. I didn’t stick round to find out what it is all about. I’ll have a look at the 6 o’clock news.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:34 am

High Threshold;1458083 wrote: Just now passed by one of the major town squares not 15 minutes ago where bands of Irakis are beginning to gather. Lots of huge Iraki flags, one Swedish. A couple of signs stating, “No to Terroism and one, “TERRORISTS do not touch our Sweden. I didn’t stick round to find out what it is all about. I’ll have a look at the 6 o’clock news. From everything I have personally experienced which has led to my own opinion, racism begins when the Indigenous feel they are losing their Identity. This Is not so prevalent In some seaside town dependent on tourism but In cities and area's where the Indigenous may be as little as 40 % of the populace. Take Luton for example. Thirty years ago, 5,000 Muslims, now 55,000. Racism Is not borne In the bigots home at the hands of racist parents but when they feel Isolated and losing Identity. It's fair to feel that way. In some cities, you may even feel In another country hearing the call to prayer, High Streets catering for Immigrant populations, languages you don't understand and the demographics changing rapidly over a few decades. It's perfectly normal to feel Isolated In some cities until the Labour Party pop up and spout that you must be a racist for feeling that Isolation.

From every Muslim I know personally and well, they do not see themselves as British. Their children born here see themselves as Pakistani, Turkish etc.

The reason we have failed to find the Eutopia the Labour Government under Blair envisaged Is because of this and the desire by radicals to challenge and change the culture of the host country. Those who are proud of British history, culture and way of life of course must be a screaming racist for suggesting so. However, the Immigrants are never accused of racism when they refuse to abide by our laws, culture and assimilate. That's when you get resentment and racism Is borne... but of course, that's just an opinion.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Sat Jun 21, 2014 11:14 am

Oscar Namechange;1458088 wrote: From everything I have personally experienced which has led to my own opinion, racism begins when the Indigenous feel they are losing their Identity. This Is not so prevalent In some seaside town dependent on tourism but In cities and area's where the Indigenous may be as little as 40 % of the populace. Take Luton for example. Thirty years ago, 5,000 Muslims, now 55,000. Racism Is not borne In the bigots home at the hands of racist parents but when they feel Isolated and losing Identity. It's fair to feel that way. In some cities, you may even feel In another country hearing the call to prayer, High Streets catering for Immigrant populations, languages you don't understand and the demographics changing rapidly over a few decades. It's perfectly normal to feel Isolated In some cities until the Labour Party pop up and spout that you must be a racist for feeling that Isolation.

From every Muslim I know personally and well, they do not see themselves as British. Their children born here see themselves as Pakistani, Turkish etc.

The reason we have failed to find the Eutopia the Labour Government under Blair envisaged Is because of this and the desire by radicals to challenge and change the culture of the host country. Those who are proud of British history, culture and way of life of course must be a screaming racist for suggesting so. However, the Immigrants are never accused of racism when they refuse to abide by our laws, culture and assimilate. That's when you get resentment and racism Is borne... but of course, that's just an opinion.

I like to consider myself to be more liberal than the average person and I think that I probably am. I also try to find the positive element in multi-culturism and the spirit in which it may have been founded. But you've written this post very well and I can find myself in it. Multi-culturism needs to be re-defined or scrapped. It is simply no good encouraging the immigrant population to thumb its nose at the host country. We may just as well say, "Flog me!"

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:07 pm

High Threshold;1458089 wrote: I like to consider myself to be more liberal than the average person and I think that I probably am. I also try to find the positive element in multi-culturism and the spirit in which it may have been founded. But you've written this post very well and I can find myself in it. Multi-culturism needs to be re-defined or scrapped. It is simply no good encouraging the immigrant population to thumb its nose at the host country. We may just as well say, "Flog me!" I'll go further...the refusal to assimilate and the desire by radicals to change the culture of the host country, ie Sharia law, Is borne of religion.

For example, I have a close friend who lives In my street who I worked with. He Is 3rd generation Pakistani. To him, he's Pakistani not British. Two years ago he travelled to Pakistan for an arranged marriage. He returned with his new young wife and one morning as we were leaving for work, I watched him lock her Inside the house which he does every time he goes out. Two years on, she has never left that house except with him to go to the Mosque. Christmas, they had a baby boy and like his Father, although he Is 4th generation, he Is not being taught English. Only their language Is spoken In the house and within the family.

I don't say a word and we've come to an understanding where he's stopped trying to convert me to Islam but of course, to me, that behaviour toward his wife Is alien. That's what happens when Immigrants are diverse to our own culture. The culture clashes and anyone who believes It doesn't, Is living In la la land..

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:43 pm

Oscar Namechange;1458103 wrote: I'll go further...the refusal to assimilate and the desire by radicals to change the culture of the host country, ie Sharia law, Is borne of religion.

For example, I have a close friend who lives In my street who I worked with. He Is 3rd generation Pakistani. To him, he's Pakistani not British. Two years ago he travelled to Pakistan for an arranged marriage. He returned with his new young wife and one morning as we were leaving for work, I watched him lock her Inside the house which he does every time he goes out. Two years on, she has never left that house except with him to go to the Mosque. Christmas, they had a baby boy and like his Father, although he Is 4th generation, he Is not being taught English. Only their language Is spoken In the house and within the family.

I don't say a word and we've come to an understanding where he's stopped trying to convert me to Islam but of course, to me, that behaviour toward his wife Is alien. That's what happens when Immigrants are diverse to our own culture. The culture clashes and anyone who believes It doesn't, Is living In la la land..

True. I’ve seen a few Somali flats in town, the windows completely covered over with thick, dark blankets. On one occasion I did see a slight parting of one covering at the edge, a small boy cautiously peering out through the crack at the world. My imagination tells me that there’s an illiterate, uneducated woman within, cooking food and making babies.

If we don’t pay heed and act soon, this sort of multi-culturalism will become the definition of immigration.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Jun 22, 2014 7:45 am

High Threshold;1458108 wrote: True. I’ve seen a few Somali flats in town, the windows completely covered over with thick, dark blankets. On one occasion I did see a slight parting of one covering at the edge, a small boy cautiously peering out through the crack at the world. My imagination tells me that there’s an illiterate, uneducated woman within, cooking food and making babies.

If we don’t pay heed and act soon, this sort of multi-culturalism will become the definition of immigration.

The point I was trying to make with my neighbour, Is that although he Is 3rd generation and legally British, he will never see himself as British. His culture Is Pakistani and that culture Is rooted In the Holy Qu'ran and at the mosque. To him, It's perfectly acceptable to lock his wife In the house all day. That's culture that's deep rooted and Is diverse to our progressive society.

Talking of Somali's, when I was on housing at the council, we were getting lots of complaints about a Somalian lady. She had been given a council house which was kitted out for her and neighbours were complaining she was burning fires late at night In the garden and a smell of burnt food with It. They went out to see her and found she was cooking all the meals on a fire In the garden because she was convinced her new oven supplied with the house was possessed by evil spirits. What can you do ? That's culture.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sun Jun 22, 2014 11:36 am

Oscar Namechange;1458120 wrote: The point I was trying to make with my neighbour, Is that although he Is 3rd generation and legally British, he will never see himself as British. His culture Is Pakistani and that culture Is rooted In the Holy Qu'ran and at the mosque. To him, It's perfectly acceptable to lock his wife In the house all day. That's culture that's deep rooted and Is diverse to our progressive society.

Talking of Somali's, when I was on housing at the council, we were getting lots of complaints about a Somalian lady. She had been given a council house which was kitted out for her and neighbours were complaining she was burning fires late at night In the garden and a smell of burnt food with It. They went out to see her and found she was cooking all the meals on a fire In the garden because she was convinced her new oven supplied with the house was possessed by evil spirits. What can you do ? That's culture.

Begging your pardon.........but are you saying that the women in Pakistan never leave the house?

And also........do you honestly believe the Somali women's problem is cultural or a lack of knowledge about cooking on gas/electric cookers?

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Sun Jun 22, 2014 11:56 am

Oscar Namechange;1458120 wrote: The point I was trying to make with my neighbour, Is that although he Is 3rd generation and legally British, he will never see himself as British. His culture Is Pakistani and that culture Is rooted In the Holy Qu'ran and at the mosque. To him, It's perfectly acceptable to lock his wife In the house all day. That's culture that's deep rooted and Is diverse to our progressive society.

Talking of Somali's, when I was on housing at the council, we were getting lots of complaints about a Somalian lady. She had been given a council house which was kitted out for her and neighbours were complaining she was burning fires late at night In the garden and a smell of burnt food with It. They went out to see her and found she was cooking all the meals on a fire In the garden because she was convinced her new oven supplied with the house was possessed by evil spirits. What can you do ? That's culture.

I’m still not prepared to blame it on the Holy Qu’ran, as you say. This is a matter of social structure. “Ethnic structure in so much as nations and/or tribes may have a firm grip upon the inhabitants within its own boundaries. I feel very strongly on this point. I am certain that you will find vast differences in religious-oriented “culture within a single nation, not to mention the differences between general Middle-Eastern Mohammedanism and that of South East Asia.

No. Although I certainly do share your frustration AND even your anger, I cannot place the weight of blame on Islam any more than I can blame Christianity for applying the cane to children as the proper way to foster them.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Jun 22, 2014 12:21 pm

Bruv;1458125 wrote: Begging your pardon.........but are you saying that the women in Pakistan never leave the house?

And also........do you honestly believe the Somali women's problem is cultural or a lack of knowledge about cooking on gas/electric cookers? Begging your pardon but It's down to the Individual who follows the Holy Q'ran.

MAN HAS THE RIGHT TO REFUSE HIS WIFE'S DAILY MAINTENANCE

In Islam "marriage does not produce any community of property between husband and wife."[134] Hence the wife must rely on the support of her husband daily. However, there are numerous grounds on which the husband can refuse supporting his wife as the following indicates:

The Hanafites said :

'The support of the woman (nafaqa) is obligatory on the man in return for the woman being locked up in the man's house, and for being exclusively his.[135]

"The Hanafites said : 'There is no support for the woman if she is -

(1) Rebellious (Nashiz) that is the woman who goes outside the house of the husband without his permission and without a justifiable reason, or refuses surrendering herself to him so she does not enter his house. But if she refuses to have sex with him (even though that is unlawful) that refusal is not a reason for stopping her support because the qualifying reason for the support does exist and that is her being locked up in his house.

Women In Islam

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sun Jun 22, 2014 1:54 pm

Don't quote the bleeding Quran at me.......else I shall start quoting the bleeding Bible back at you.

There are over a billion Muslims in the world, thats a lot of locked up wives, suicide bombers,and child molesters.

I am being ironic

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Jun 22, 2014 2:03 pm

Bruv;1458146 wrote: Don't quote the bleeding Quran at me.......else I shall start quoting the bleeding Bible back at you.

There are over a billion Muslims in the world, thats a lot of locked up wives, suicide bombers,and child molesters.

I am being ironic That's code for ' oh bugger, she's proved her point' Is It.?

Try reading posts In full. I said It depends on the Individual Muslim and how they Interpret the Holy Q'ran. My neighbour happens to take those passages to the letter.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sun Jun 22, 2014 2:09 pm

Oscar Namechange;1458147 wrote: That's code for ' oh bugger, she's proved her point' Is It.?

Yeah!!!

(Bruv walks away muttering profanities)

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Jun 22, 2014 2:12 pm

Bruv;1458149 wrote: Yeah!!!

(Bruv walks away muttering profanities) I proved the point that the Holy Qu'ran contains passages about men locking women In the house. I'm not saying all Pakistani's do that but some do depending how literally they take the passages and word of Mohammed.

Snowfire · Post by **Snowfire** » Sun Jun 22, 2014 2:18 pm

Oscar Namechange;1458147 wrote:

......Try reading posts In full......

Wow ! The irony. So palpable you could photograph it

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sun Jun 22, 2014 2:24 pm

Oscar Namechange;1458151 wrote: I proved the point that the Holy Qu'ran contains passages about men locking women In the house. I'm not saying all Pakistani's do that but some do depending how literally they take the passages and word of Mohammed.

OK then.......heres some from the Bible...............remember you satrted it.......I meant to say started.......but we all make mistakes.....don't we?

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Jun 22, 2014 2:28 pm

Bruv;1458153 wrote: OK then.......heres some from the Bible...............remember you satrted it.......I meant to say started.......but we all make mistakes.....don't we? Two wrongs don't make a right. I'm equally averse to anyone taking the bible literally also.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sun Jun 22, 2014 3:13 pm

It would appear your aversity knows no bounds.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Jun 22, 2014 3:52 pm

Bruv;1458156 wrote: It would appear your aversity knows no bounds. There's no such word.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:03 pm

Oscar Namechange;1458157 wrote: There's no such word.

So it's not spelled wrong then ?

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Sun Jun 22, 2014 6:23 pm

Regrettably I have to agree that 'Multiculturism' is increasingly a 1-way street, and I'm not referring to any individual culture or religion either.

Regardless of how much we may try to accept them & to be as tolerant as possible, as natives of the UK culture we are still treated with contempt by those that choose to come to this country. At the same time entire neighbourhoods rapidly become ghettoised, with streets that were once decent neighbourhoods being turned into slums that are no-go areas for anyone not of their culture.

There are those who would accuse me of being racist, but I also acknowledge that, to a degree, the same thing happens with ex-pat Brits - Birds of a Feather, and all that. However, as far as I'm aware, I don't know of any ex-pat Brits who have expected exemption from the laws of their adopted homes, whereas the immigrants to the UK do just that.

I have no problems with multiculturism per se. I am willing to accept other cultures as equals, but I don't think it's unreasonable to be treated with respect as a native of my own homeland, instead of as a second class citizen by those who seem to be occupying our country by proxy.

Just look in the Situations Vacant column in your local paper - especially in the Local Government & NHS vacancies. More often than not you see the line "We particularly welcome applications from those of ethnic origins" (or similar). However, if they were to include the line "We particularly welcome applications from those of White British culture", and there would be all hell to pay. But ask yourself this - If equality really is equal, then is there really any difference between the two? Positive Discrimination is still Discrimination & should be as illegal in the same way as any other kind of discrimination is.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Jun 23, 2014 7:44 am

FourPart;1458162 wrote: Regrettably I have to agree that 'Multiculturism' is increasingly a 1-way street, and I'm not referring to any individual culture or religion either.

Regardless of how much we may try to accept them & to be as tolerant as possible, as natives of the UK culture we are still treated with contempt by those that choose to come to this country. At the same time entire neighbourhoods rapidly become ghettoised, with streets that were once decent neighbourhoods being turned into slums that are no-go areas for anyone not of their culture.

There are those who would accuse me of being racist, but I also acknowledge that, to a degree, the same thing happens with ex-pat Brits - Birds of a Feather, and all that. However, as far as I'm aware, I don't know of any ex-pat Brits who have expected exemption from the laws of their adopted homes, whereas the immigrants to the UK do just that.

I have no problems with multiculturism per se. I am willing to accept other cultures as equals, but I don't think it's unreasonable to be treated with respect as a native of my own homeland, instead of as a second class citizen by those who seem to be occupying our country by proxy.

Just look in the Situations Vacant column in your local paper - especially in the Local Government & NHS vacancies. More often than not you see the line "We particularly welcome applications from those of ethnic origins" (or similar). However, if they were to include the line "We particularly welcome applications from those of White British culture", and there would be all hell to pay. But ask yourself this - If equality really is equal, then is there really any difference between the two? Positive Discrimination is still Discrimination & should be as illegal in the same way as any other kind of discrimination is. I may repeat what I wrote In The religious slaughter thread here but you make some very good points and of which I agree.

As I said prior, racism Is not borne to children In the home by racist parents but when the populace feels a sense of loss of Identity and unfairness.

Many will quote Sir Enoch Powell's, Rivers of Blood speech In 1968 to bolster that multiculturism has not worked. Back then, Powell was talking about first wave Immigrants In the main from African countries such as Ghana. While he was prophetic to a certain extent, I believe from everything I've seen and know, we do not have an assimilation problem with black communities over the country. Far from It In fact. All black communities have Integrated, assimilated, married British, produced mixed race children and demand nothing. What the biased media does not cover, Is the racial tensions between black communities and Muslim communities with nothing to do with the white Indigenous.

The sense of unfairness, as you pointed out, In the British Is the pandering to one minority that is based on religion. In fact, go to any black community and you'll hear them complain that there Is not enough Investment Into their communities especially job prospects for young blacks.

The ethnic ghetto's that have been created almost to the point of segregation Is down to poor management In social housing who's ethos was to stick them all together. Naturally, over generations, these area's become their area's.

Over the years, the demands made by one ethnic community have been pandered to In appeasement. That Is the problem... governments who don't have the balls to say, fit In or leave.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:43 am

FourPart;1458162 wrote: ..... Positive Discrimination is still Discrimination ...

Exactly. I have heard things such as, "I don't understand why people discriminate against 'X'. I find 'X' to be more agreeable than my own people."

Further. In Sweden it is illegal to use the term "svartskalle" but there is no law making slanderous terms against us illegal. That in itself is a racist attitude. Would it have been too much to ask government to make it illegal to slander ANY ONE culture/race/ethnic group, thus including us in the process? Why have they chosen only to mention the rights of the immigrant?

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:47 am

High Threshold;1458184 wrote: Exactly. I have heard things such as, "I don't understand why people discriminate against 'X'. I find 'X' to be more agreeable than my own people."

Further. In Sweden it is illegal to use the term "svartskalle" but there is no law making slanderous terms against us illegal. That in itself is a racist attitude. Would it have been too much to ask government to make it illegal to slander ANY ONE culture/race/ethnic group, thus including us in the process? Why have they chosen only to mention the rights of the immigrant?

Frankly, the British government Is reaping that of which It sowed. They were warned years ago but they were more Interested In shooting the messenger.

For evidence that culture, deeply rooted In the Holy Q'ran does not assimilate with the host country, then look no further than this published today. I have read other reports that the number of British born Muslims going to Iraq and Syria Is more In the thousands not the few odd ball radicals as first reported by government.

As many as 15,000 items of "jihadist propaganda" have been taken down from the internet due to government pressure since December 2013, Downing Street said on Monday.

David Cameron said the "extremist poisonous narrative" leading people to fight in Syria could end up with "people dead on our own streets".

His official spokeswoman revealed that the British government was pressing YouTube to take down a video posted three days ago by a Cardiff-born man now in Syria calling for fellow British Muslims to join the war in Syria. She said the video should not be hosted by YouTube. Parts of the video have also been hosted by a number of news websites including Mail Online and the Telegraph.

Cameron said in a statement: "We are putting more of our resources in terms of intelligence, security, policing, into stopping people to travel to Syria, monitoring them properly when they return and making sure we reduce the risk to our country. The most important thing of all is to stop this radicalisation in the first place.

Government reveals scale of online fight against jihadist propaganda | World news | theguardian.com

Oh the Irony !!!

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:38 pm

Oscar Namechange;1458182 wrote: The ethnic ghetto's that have been created almost to the point of segregation Is down to poor management In social housing who's ethos was to stick them all together. Naturally, over generations, these area's become their area's.

Over the years, the demands made by one ethnic community have been pandered to In appeasement. That Is the problem... governments who don't have the balls to say, fit In or leave.
Social housing is not even usually the problem. In fact the main Indian Ghetto in Southampton is mainly privately owned. It usually starts with the sterotype of mass overcrowding of a single house, often with a whole family living in each room. This in turn lowers property values in the area, so other residents tend to cut their losses & move out. These houses are then bought up by others of that culture, and so it goes on, like a different type of culture - the type found in a petri dish.

Muslims, in particular, are forbidden to pay or receive interest on loans, so they have their own banks which provide interest free mortgages - often through the Mosque.

The recent case of a Court witness insisting on wearing the Burkha, despite being told by the Court that she could not is another case in point - blatant refusal to abide by our laws. The same goes when entering a bank, or similar, where anything that hides the face from CCTV recognition is not permitted, for obvious reasons. I have to remove my motorbike crash helmet, and I have no problems with this yet, once again they demand that a Burkha should be exempt from this rule, despite the fact that not only does the Burkha conceal the face, it can also easily conceal a weapon. And bear in mind, it doesn't even need to be a Muslim, or even a woman inside the Burkha - it could, in fact be anyone using it as a convenient cover, as was demonstrated by that case of the wanted terrorist (male) who escaped Police custody & simply walked onto the plane out of the country by wearing a Burkha.

Put quite simply, to say that they obey the laws of this country or stay out is not, in my opinion, unreasonable, and certainly not a breach of Human Rights, which they so often reach out to. What's even worse are the multi-generational ones who still can't speak the language, or make any attempt to, knowing that everything will be translated for them at the expense of the taxpayer.

Integration is one thing, but to expect the host nation to have to integrate to all comers, instead of vice versa, is just not acceptable.

I am opposed to the EU 'Open Door' policy, as we are too small a country to cope with it, but I have to admit that most of the European migrants I've encountered have done their best to speak the language and, on the whole, abide by our laws (apart from those who I referred to in the Minimum Wage thread who take on Cash In Hand jobs at less than Minimum Wage, thus paying no Tax / N.I.).

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:21 am

FourPart;1458229 wrote: Social housing is not even usually the problem. In fact the main Indian Ghetto in Southampton is mainly privately owned. It usually starts with the sterotype of mass overcrowding of a single house, often with a whole family living in each room. This in turn lowers property values in the area, so other residents tend to cut their losses & move out. These houses are then bought up by others of that culture, and so it goes on, like a different type of culture - the type found in a petri dish.

Muslims, in particular, are forbidden to pay or receive interest on loans, so they have their own banks which provide interest free mortgages - often through the Mosque.

The recent case of a Court witness insisting on wearing the Burkha, despite being told by the Court that she could not is another case in point - blatant refusal to abide by our laws. The same goes when entering a bank, or similar, where anything that hides the face from CCTV recognition is not permitted, for obvious reasons. I have to remove my motorbike crash helmet, and I have no problems with this yet, once again they demand that a Burkha should be exempt from this rule, despite the fact that not only does the Burkha conceal the face, it can also easily conceal a weapon. And bear in mind, it doesn't even need to be a Muslim, or even a woman inside the Burkha - it could, in fact be anyone using it as a convenient cover, as was demonstrated by that case of the wanted terrorist (male) who escaped Police custody & simply walked onto the plane out of the country by wearing a Burkha.

Put quite simply, to say that they obey the laws of this country or stay out is not, in my opinion, unreasonable, and certainly not a breach of Human Rights, which they so often reach out to. What's even worse are the multi-generational ones who still can't speak the language, or make any attempt to, knowing that everything will be translated for them at the expense of the taxpayer.

Integration is one thing, but to expect the host nation to have to integrate to all comers, instead of vice versa, is just not acceptable.

I am opposed to the EU 'Open Door' policy, as we are too small a country to cope with it, but I have to admit that most of the European migrants I've encountered have done their best to speak the language and, on the whole, abide by our laws (apart from those who I referred to in the Minimum Wage thread who take on Cash In Hand jobs at less than Minimum Wage, thus paying no Tax / N.I.).

As there is no logic to the host country bending over backwards in this manner, the question I would like answered is who benefits? Someone must.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:24 am

I am speechless concerning the urban myth, half truths, and propaganda propagated in the previous two posts, but I just can't be assed trying to point out the errors or over sights, my lack of word skills and patience obviously.

I might put aside some time to try again.......

Post by **Betty Boop** » Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:38 am

Bruv;1458240 wrote: I am speechless concerning the urban myth, half truths, and propaganda propagated in the previous two posts, but I just can't be assed trying to point out the errors or over sights, my lack of word skills and patience obviously.

I might put aside some time to try again.......

I'm right there with you Bruv, it's soul destroying to read it.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:22 am

Bruv;1458240 wrote: I am speechless concerning the urban myth, half truths, and propaganda propagated in the previous two posts .......

The past two posts? Please tell me you are not referring to this .....

High Threshold;1458239 wrote: As there is no logic to the host country bending over backwards in this manner, the question I would like answered is who benefits? Someone must.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:04 am

Oscar Namechange;1458197 wrote: Frankly, the British government Is reaping that of which It sowed. They were warned years ago but they were more Interested In shooting the messenger. What are they reaping, the outcome of all those muskets shot sprayed around the British Empire, or bequeathing the right of citizenship to those they grew rich off the back of ? Who did the warning and when ? Were the warnings about the Romans, Huguenots, Jews, Indians, there has been so many immigrants over so many years, with many warning voices. Or are we talking of the 'reformed' racist, gravy train joiner, and thoroughly nice guy Herr Griffin ? A direct descendent of Mosley's Black Shirts.......another nice guy.

For evidence that culture, deeply rooted In the Holy Q'ran does not assimilate with the host country, then look no further than this published today. I have read other reports that the number of British born Muslims going to Iraq and Syria Is more In the thousands not the few odd ball radicals as first reported by government.

Over a billion Muslims worldwide, on every continent, in many countries, have assimilated, maybe we need to look at how they do it against how we do it.......just a thought to throw out there.

Not too long ago there were British young men fighting in Spain, young men do such things, see a wrong, an injustice and fight to put it right............maybe.....just maybe we should ask these British born, British educated ,jihadists a simple question.......Why? And listen to their answers.

As many as 15,000 items of "jihadist propaganda" have been taken down from the internet due to government pressure since December 2013, Downing Street said on Monday.

David Cameron said the "extremist poisonous narrative" leading people to fight in Syria could end up with "people dead on our own streets".

His official spokeswoman revealed that the British government was pressing YouTube to take down a video posted three days ago by a Cardiff-born man now in Syria calling for fellow British Muslims to join the war in Syria. She said the video should not be hosted by YouTube. Parts of the video have also been hosted by a number of news websites including Mail Online and the Telegraph.

So Cameron is 'taking down' My and Your freedoms in the name of terrorist threat? And he will be blaming dastardly Islam, just like Hitler blamed the Jews?

Cameron said in a statement: "We are putting more of our resources in terms of intelligence, security, policing, into stopping people to travel to Syria, monitoring them properly when they return and making sure we reduce the risk to our country. The most important thing of all is to stop this radicalisation in the first place.

Oh the Irony !!!
The resources he is putting into stopping people travelling ?

Are those funds left over from the War fund.......the war that possibly.....prompted these Brit born,Brit educated jihadists to want to travel, to right some wrongs?

That should do for now............enough to mull over.....unless of course you have all the answers.....and no further discussion is required.........a bit like god.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:25 am

High Threshold;1458242 wrote: The past two posts? Please tell me you are not referring to this .....

I interpret the silence to mean that you did in fact award my post "urban myth, half truths, and propaganda". I have absolutely no idea why.

Post by **Peter Lake** » Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:11 am

Betty Boop;1458241 wrote: I'm right there with you Bruv, it's soul destroying to read it. Why is it that you appear to chip in only when another member sticks his neck out and makes a bold statement against those who have contributed throughout in this thread? If you feel that strongly, why not challenge yourself instead of waiting for someone else? Why hone in on the negative when Oscar has stated throughout the entire thread that most of the Muslim population assimilate and she is discussing radicals and extremists as we have witnessed in our schools? I just can't see the point of any contribution you have made here. The purpose of any forum, is it not, is to debate ideas and opinion or does that mean ideas and opinion only if they concur with you? If you disagree so vehemently then present some evidence to counter debate what has been posted.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:09 am

FourPart;1458229 wrote: Social housing is not even usually the problem. In fact the main Indian Ghetto in Southampton is mainly privately owned. It usually starts with the sterotype of mass overcrowding of a single house, often with a whole family living in each room. This in turn lowers property values in the area, so other residents tend to cut their losses & move out. These houses are then bought up by others of that culture, and so it goes on, like a different type of culture - the type found in a petri dish.

Muslims, in particular, are forbidden to pay or receive interest on loans, so they have their own banks which provide interest free mortgages - often through the Mosque.
So you are equating Indian culture to be the same as the growth of germs in a petri dish ?

At this stage I don't know if I want to continue talking to someone with such an attitude, but think it only right to try and sort out your wierd perception of Sharia Banking and their slant on the use interest.

Sharia Banking Loans are based on ethical decisions, so they would never loan money for property speculation.The Loan is a form of parnership where lender and lendee share the risk of the basis for the loan. Sharia Mortgages

I would be happy to accept Sharia Banking as the norm personally, because the lending of money has always caused me problems philosophically. A poor man is charged higher interest, if he can get a loan, while a rich man can get all the loans he wants, or can loan money to make himself richer still.

The recent case of a Court witness insisting on wearing the Burkha, despite being told by the Court that she could not is another case in point - blatant refusal to abide by our laws. The same goes when entering a bank, or similar, where anything that hides the face from CCTV recognition is not permitted, for obvious reasons. I have to remove my motorbike crash helmet, and I have no problems with this yet, once again they demand that a Burkha should be exempt from this rule, despite the fact that not only does the Burkha conceal the face, it can also easily conceal a weapon. And bear in mind, it doesn't even need to be a Muslim, or even a woman inside the Burkha - it could, in fact be anyone using it as a convenient cover, as was demonstrated by that case of the wanted terrorist (male) who escaped Police custody & simply walked onto the plane out of the country by wearing a Burkha.
So a male in a burka passed through airport security and got straight on a plane unchallenged ?

I would sack the security staff immediately.

Googled the statement "male boards plane wearing burka" and got.........This

And of course the normal Daily Mail garbage.......but anybody with any sort of intelligence should be able to filter them for bull.

There ought to be procedures in court to accomodate burka wearing witnesses.

Put quite simply, to say that they obey the laws of this country or stay out is not, in my opinion, unreasonable, and certainly not a breach of Human Rights, which they so often reach out to. What's even worse are the multi-generational ones who still can't speak the language, or make any attempt to, knowing that everything will be translated for them at the expense of the taxpayer.

Integration is one thing, but to expect the host nation to have to integrate to all comers, instead of vice versa, is just not acceptable.
I would lean towards the translation of official documents ceasing for a greater requirement for the recipients of services to speak the language.I see this similar to the Benefit system, it needs to be reformed, but with sensitivity.

I am opposed to the EU 'Open Door' policy, as we are too small a country to cope with it, but I have to admit that most of the European migrants I've encountered have done their best to speak the language and, on the whole, abide by our laws (apart from those who I referred to in the Minimum Wage thread who take on Cash In Hand jobs at less than Minimum Wage, thus paying no Tax / N.I.).

All the time we are a members of the EU, free movement with all the advantages will be there. The Black economy will always be there too.

Employers are at fault when anybody 'gets away' with Tax and Insurance, it is criminal to employ illegals or to evade tax and NI payments.......so blame the evil employer.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:14 am

High Threshold;1458246 wrote: I interpret the silence to mean that you did in fact award my post "urban myth, half truths, and propaganda". I have absolutely no idea why.

Please don't 'interpret' silence as anything other than "Silence"

What "urban myth, half truths, and propaganda" were there in your post ?

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:21 am

Bruv;1458254 wrote: ..... What "urban myth, half truths, and propaganda" were there in your post ?

None as far as I can tell. But you did say the last two posts (or similar words) ... "urban myth, half truths, and propaganda" and that includes my post. I only asked if that's what you meant. Clarification is all I asked for. You didn't reply. Anyway, we're clear, yes?

Post by **Peter Lake** » Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:31 am

Bruv;1458254 wrote: Please don't 'interpret' silence as anything other than "Silence"

What "urban myth, half truths, and propaganda" were there in your post ? You must take into account here that the problems with radicals is far more progressive and problematic in Sweden and unless you've lived there and experienced first hand the growing difficulties then it's futile to attempt to equate England and Sweden.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:45 am

Peter Lake;1458257 wrote: You must take into account here that the problems with radicals is far more progressive and problematic in Sweden and unless you've lived there and experienced first hand the growing difficulties then it's futile to attempt to equate England and Sweden.

It's probably my fault, really. It's just that despite that I DO NOT share the "It's the Moslems, it's the Koran!" many of the situations Oscar describes from the UK are very similar to those in Sweden. So I most definitely DO share her frustration. My idea of remedy differs greatly from hers but as is often the case, people see who's sitting across from you at the pub and assume you've arrived together.

Post by **Betty Boop** » Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:05 am

Peter Lake;1458248 wrote: Why is it that you appear to chip in only when another member sticks his neck out and makes a bold statement against those who have contributed throughout in this thread? If you feel that strongly, why not challenge yourself instead of waiting for someone else? Why hone in on the negative when Oscar has stated throughout the entire thread that most of the Muslim population assimilate and she is discussing radicals and extremists as we have witnessed in our schools? I just can't see the point of any contribution you have made here. The purpose of any forum, is it not, is to debate ideas and opinion or does that mean ideas and opinion only if they concur with you? If you disagree so vehemently then present some evidence to counter debate what has been posted.

I have spent time trying to engage in debate with your wife but it is impossible, she is set on her own agenda and pays no attention to anything anyone says. She totally ignores any arguments against her own opinions, but instead chases others with the amusing tactic of suddenly demanding others answer her questions (a trait she mimics from another member here).

I have also actually made strong worded arguments against her ramblings on my own, with no back up from anyone else on this forum.

What happens in reality is in the beginnings of these threads your wife does meet opposition and then as we go round and round in circles with her not paying one jot of attention to anything myself or any other member posts us normal posters get fed up talking to a brick wall and walk away.

What is your contribution here exactly, seeing as you've come in specifically ask me that question, to pick on someone who does actually challenge your wife's skewed views?

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:12 am

Am I in the Two Ronnies ?

Answering the question before last sketch.......because I am really confused here.

Post by **Peter Lake** » Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:54 am

Betty Boop;1458260 wrote: I have spent time trying to engage in debate with your wife but it is impossible, she is set on her own agenda and pays no attention to anything anyone says. She totally ignores any arguments against her own opinions, but instead chases others with the amusing tactic of suddenly demanding others answer her questions (a trait she mimics from another member here).

I have also actually made strong worded arguments against her ramblings on my own, with no back up from anyone else on this forum.

What happens in reality is in the beginnings of these threads your wife does meet opposition and then as we go round and round in circles with her not paying one jot of attention to anything myself or any other member posts us normal posters get fed up talking to a brick wall and walk away.

What is your contribution here exactly, seeing as you've come in specifically ask me that question, to pick on someone who does actually challenge your wife's skewed views? Skewed ideas? That's debating in your book is it or just you have a problem with anyone who doesn't lap up every word you say?

You do not debate with Oscar, if you think you do then you are deluded. All i've ever seen from you with Oscar is trolling and personal attacks. So tell me then Betty, after she has stated quite clearly that most of the Muslim population assimilate and we have more Muslim friends sitting on our sofa in one week than you'll likely have for the rest of your life, what exactly is this agenda she has?

What it appears you have done is typical stereotyping at it's worst. It appears you assume that because Oscar talks of radical Islam and it's effect on society, she is classing all Muslims as extremists while in the same breathe you are stereotyping anyone who supports some far right policies as racist. Surely that's blatant hypocrisy on your part?

While you're there, tell me, why do you not take any other member to pieces when they have supported a post Oscar has made? There's plenty of content here for you to choose from.

Where is it you reside? [PERSONAL INFORMATION REMOVED BY MODERATOR] i believe. I was born and raised in the east end of London and i worked there for most of my life. I visit those parts a great deal and i do not recognise London today. Now call me a racist for saying so but i think you'll find John Cleese recently said similar.

Your bait racism is based on living in an area dependent on a dwindling fishing industry and tourism and i don't believe you can even begin to comprehend the change in demographics in this country. You go round and round in circles with Oscar solely due to your inability to present a case other than a personality clash.

Until you can offer anything that can show a counter debate to that which is posted throughout this thread then i'll let you get on with your own skewed perception on life in the inner cities. All you have offered so far is personality clashes and frankly my dear, i don't give a damn about your opinions.

There has been some very interesting debate in this thread from other members that i've enjoyed reading. It's not all about Oscar, open your eyes.

Post by **Betty Boop** » Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:08 pm

Peter Lake;1458265 wrote: Skewed ideas? That's debating in your book is it or just you have a problem with anyone who doesn't lap up every word you say?

You do not debate with Oscar, if you think you do then you are deluded. All i've ever seen from you with Oscar is trolling and personal attacks. So tell me then Betty, after she has stated quite clearly that most of the Muslim population assimilate and we have more Muslim friends sitting on our sofa in one week than you'll likely have for the rest of your life, what exactly is this agenda she has?

What it appears you have done is typical stereotyping at it's worst. It appears you assume that because Oscar talks of radical Islam and it's effect on society, she is classing all Muslims as extremists while in the same breathe you are stereotyping anyone who supports some far right policies as racist. Surely that's blatant hypocrisy on your part?

While you're there, tell me, why do you not take any other member to pieces when they have supported a post Oscar has made? There's plenty of content here for you to choose from.

Where is it you reside? [PERSONAL INFORMATION REMOVED BY MODERATOR] i believe. I was born and raised in the east end of London and i worked there for most of my life. I visit those parts a great deal and i do not recognise London today. Now call me a racist for saying so but i think you'll find John Cleese recently said similar.

Your bait racism is based on living in an area dependent on a dwindling fishing industry and tourism and i don't believe you can even begin to comprehend the change in demographics in this country. You go round and round in circles with Oscar solely due to your inability to present a case other than a personality clash.

Until you can offer anything that can show a counter debate to that which is posted throughout this thread then i'll let you get on with your own skewed perception on life in the inner cities. All you have offered so far is personality clashes and frankly my dear, i don't give a damn about your opinions.

There has been some very interesting debate in this thread from other members that i've enjoyed reading. It's not all about Oscar, open your eyes.

You sound very much like Oscar, you know best.

I'll leave you to your 'you know best' attitude, this silly uneducated woman living at the edge of England couldn't possibly have any other experience of the country could she. :rolleyes:

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:56 pm

Oscar Namechange;1454226 wrote: The hypocrisy of Britain's multiculturalism

Is there a written definition of "multiculturalism" by EU or perhaps UK standards? I mean, we bat the term about, with reference to the problems with immigration, but the problems might be down to a lack of definition. Does multiculturalism actually discourage immigrants from integrating or is it merely a loop-hole that needs to be plugged with no one courageous enough to do the job?

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:48 pm

Multiculturalism and Social Cohesion

“Multiculturalism was introduced in Canada in the 1970s and widely adopted internationally, but more recently has been hotly debated, amid new concerns about social, cultural, and political impacts of immigration. Advocates praise multiculturalism for its emphasis on special recognition for cultural minorities as facilitating their social integration, while opponents charge that multiculturalism threatens social cohesion by encouraging social isolation.

Multiculturalism and Social Cohesion - Potentials and Challenges of Diversity

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 1:54 am

High Threshold;1458298 wrote: Is there a written definition of "multiculturalism" by EU or perhaps UK standards? I mean, we bat the term about, with reference to the problems with immigration, but the problems might be down to a lack of definition. Does multiculturalism actually discourage immigrants from integrating or is it merely a loop-hole that needs to be plugged with no one courageous enough to do the job?

"A rose by any other name" etc. comes to mind.

It is a new undefined cover all buzz word. It basically means we should except newcomers differences. We didn't have Multiculturism back when the West Indians arrived, or there were Jewish/Sikh areas in London, we didn't need to know about Multiculturism when the Jewish tailor shut up shop on Saturday, or the West Indian house parties spilled into the street.

theia · Post by **theia** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 2:08 am

High Threshold;1458298 wrote: Is there a written definition of "multiculturalism" by EU or perhaps UK standards? I mean, we bat the term about, with reference to the problems with immigration, but the problems might be down to a lack of definition. Does multiculturalism actually discourage immigrants from integrating or is it merely a loop-hole that needs to be plugged with no one courageous enough to do the job?

Well, I took a quick look online and I'm none the wiser. It seems that definitions are many and varied. Or, to paraphrase Carroll's Humpty Dumpty, the word means just what we want it to mean, neither more nor less.

Post by **Peter Lake** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:02 am

Betty Boop;1458278 wrote: You sound very much like Oscar, you know best.

: That old chestnut, i must be Oscar. Why on earth would she impersonate me when she's quite capable herself and no doubt would, should she be here? If i do sound like Oscar, then maybe that's the result of a long and successful marriage?

I'm still curious for you to answer the allegation you have made. What exactly is this agenda you accuse my wife of?

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:59 am

Bruv;1458305 wrote: It is a new undefined cover all buzz word.

theia;1458308 wrote: Well, I took a quick look online and I'm none the wiser. It seems that definitions are many and varied. Or, to paraphrase Carroll's Humpty Dumpty, the word means just what we want it to mean, neither more nor less.

All right then, so now that the notion of multiculturalism is increasingly being blamed for the situation (that those in highly-congested cities detest while the uninitiated country-bumpkins haven't yet experienced in its fullest) then all we need to do is get down to formulating a set of clear rules on how to accept immigration through integration, without them losing their cultural identity and still not upset the host population, and then give it a new title. Simply toss out multiculturalism and replace it with the new title and rules with sensible laws supporting equality. Et violá! Le chat est satisfait.

theia · Post by **theia** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 4:11 am

High Threshold;1458316 wrote: All right then, so now that the notion of multiculturalism is increasingly being blamed for the situation (that those in highly-congested cities detest while the uninitiated country-bumpkins haven't yet experienced in its fullest) then all we need to do is get down to formulating a set of clear rules on how to accept immigration through integration, without them losing their cultural identity and still not upset the host population, and then give it a new title. Simply toss out multiculturalism and replace it with the new title and rules with sensible laws supporting equality. Et violá! Le chat est satisfait.

Sounds like a good plan...until people fail to agree on the new title and rules.

Hadn't thought of myself as a country-bumpkin before. We don't have high levels of immigration in Cornwall and hence it isn't a pressing issue for us. Of course that doesn't exclude us from having an opinion.

What is your definition of country-bumpkin?

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 4:43 am

theia;1458318 wrote: Sounds like a good plan...until people fail to agree on the new title and rules.

Inevitable, eh?

theia;1458318 wrote: Hadn't thought of myself as a country-bumpkin before. We don't have high levels of immigration in Cornwall and hence it isn't a pressing issue for us. Of course that doesn't exclude us from having an opinion.

What is your definition of country-bumpkin?

Oh shyt, I've had it now.

I was only trying to lighten up an earlier comment that didn't go over very well. All I really want to say is that those with low-level immigration may not understand how badly the "problem" really is and may even think there is no problem at all. There's nothing wrong in having an opinion. I have my own opinion on the subject of parachuting, though I've never tried it.

theia · Post by **theia** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 4:53 am

High Threshold;1458319 wrote: Inevitable, eh?

Oh shyt, I've had it now.

I was only trying to lighten up an earlier comment that didn't go over very well. All I really want to say is that those with low-level immigration may not understand how badly the "problem" really is and may even think there is no problem at all. There's nothing wrong in having an opinion. I have my own opinion on the subject of parachuting, though I've never tried it.

Yep, afraid there is no coming back from that one :wah: