If Kennedy had lived

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Oscar Namechange
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If Kennedy had lived

Post by Oscar Namechange »

Watching all the documentaries surrounding the assassination of JFK this week to mark the anniversary, I'm Intrigued as to how Americans envisage America today had Kennedy of lived and served out two full offices.

Do you think America would be different today and why?

What landmark decisions do you think he would have made?

What changes would he have Implicated?

Would he have changed the course of history?

Would America be a better country or worse?
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AnneBoleyn
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

I think Kennedy would NOT have gotten us out of Vietnam, which is what Kennedy sentimentalists like to think. If this would have been the case, then I believe we would be in the same place we are now.
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Post by tude dog »

I agree with Ann on Nam, but would hope he would have not been the micro managing fool Johnson was.

As far as the overall course of the nation I expect it to be different, better without LBJ's magnificent failure of the Great Society.

Beyond that, I have nothing to add.
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Post by along-for-the-ride »

Have you read this book?

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/13/books ... d=all&_r=0

I did. Very interesting.
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

Thank God for LBJ's social programs. I'm sorry I hated him so much over Vietnam that I overlooked the good he was doing. Of course, stopping the war was utmost on my agenda so I overlooked all else.

The elderly were so poor without Medicare. It was pitiful. I would never want people to be subject to that again.

No, AFTR, I didn't read the book although I have heard of it. I loved President Kennedy & was crushed when he was killed, as so many of my generation were. He brought Hope for the future, something no other president in my lifetime has. But Vietnam...........a killer of hopes & dreams.
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Post by Bruv »

When anyone poses an'If' type question I quote the old saying "If my aunt had balls, she would be my uncle"

Having said that he was taken at his highest point,like anybody his memory is frozen at that time.

Since then we have learned he was a bit of a womaniser, and I understand many of his reforms were not instigated till LBJ took the reins, so it's hard to tell if it was his death that influenced history positively, or if they would have happened with him at the helm.

I was only 16 at the time.
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Post by Ahso! »

I think the Kennedy who would have had the greatest impact on American politics was Bobby. And John being killed is what transformed Bobby into a thoughtful and empathetic person of conscience. Prior to that Bobby was just another ambitious opportunist, and that's what I think JFK was as well.
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Post by Ahso! »

Bruv;1440654 wrote: When anyone poses an'If' type question I quote the old saying "If my aunt had balls, she would be my uncle"

I wondered why it was in the history forum.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

Bruv;1440654 wrote: When anyone poses an'If' type question I quote the old saying "If my aunt had balls, she would be my uncle"

Having said that he was taken at his highest point,like anybody his memory is frozen at that time.

Since then we have learned he was a bit of a womaniser, and I understand many of his reforms were not instigated till LBJ took the reins, so it's hard to tell if it was his death that influenced history positively, or if they would have happened with him at the helm.

I was only 16 at the time. I agree but I do wonder where he would have taken America.

( I was 5 )
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

oscar;1440658 wrote: I agree but I do wonder where he would have taken America.




We'll never know, will we? A mystery to contemplate.
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Post by tude dog »

I think this is a fair summary of THE GREAT SOCIETY

In the wake of President Kennedy's assassination in 1963, a wave of sympathy and public support enabled President Johnson to pass a number of Kennedy Administration proposals including the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Building on this momentum, Johnson introduced his own vision for America: "the Great Society" -- in which America ended poverty, promoted equality, improved education, rejuvenated cities, and protected the environment. This became the blueprint for the most far-reaching agenda of domestic legislation since the New Deal -- legislation that has had a profound effect on American society.


As a whole, complete failure.

for example



The 7 Most Infamous U.S. Public Housing Projects

WAR ON POVERTY



We lost, in more ways than one.

Got a brief reprieve with the Economic Opportunity Act of 1964

Despite improvements, seems terms like Personal Responsibility are becoming taboo, code words for something insidious concocted by some mysterious Republican overseers.:sneaky:
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

A quote from the link you used TD:

"In 1964, 44 percent of seniors had no health care coverage, and with the medical bills that come with older age, this propelled many seniors into poverty. In fact, more than one in three Americans over 65 were living below the poverty line -- more than double the rate of those under 65. Medicare was an important and big change in American health care -- it was called the "biggest management job since the invasion of Normandy" -- and it was up to John Gardner to make it work. He helped shepherd Medicare to reality, and the results have been extraordinary: virtually all seniors now have health care, and the poverty rate for the elderly has fallen to approximately one in ten -- a rate lower than that of the general population. Along with Medicare, the Johnson Administration established the Medicaid program to provide health care to the poor."

PBS - Thematic Window: The Great Society
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

I remember my grandmothers, both hard-working women. They were so F**king Poor & needed help from their children. I don't want to see the elderly this dependent ever again, but I would not be surprised if I did.

Guess the old & sick have no personal responsibility. Free Loaders, that's what you must think they are.
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Post by tude dog »

AnneBoleyn;1440679 wrote: I remember my grandmothers, both hard-working women. They were so F**king Poor & needed help from their children. I don't want to see the elderly this dependent ever again, but I would not be surprised if I did.

Guess the old & sick have no personal responsibility. Free Loaders, that's what you must think they are.


I was very careful in that I spoke in general regarding the Great Society.

As far as it goes, Medicare has worked well enough.

A thumb up.
If people concentrated on the really important things in life, there'd be a shortage of fishing poles,” Doug Larson.

“Never doubt the courage of the French. They were the ones who discovered that snails are edible.”
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

tude dog;1440699 wrote: I was very careful in that I spoke in general regarding the Great Society.

As far as it goes, Medicare has worked well enough.

A thumb up.


Hmmmmmmmmm. You're heading to Medicare age. You don't want to be a hypocrite when you sign up. If you needed food stamps or other aid you might just change your mind again.
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Post by Bruv »

I am asking because I don't know, not knocking your system.

Does Medicare cover all after a certain age ?

If so......what happens to their insurance contributions made during their working lives, doesn't that exempt the money grabbing insurance companies paying out when they need to?
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

Bruv;1440761 wrote: I am asking because I don't know, not knocking your system.

Does Medicare cover all after a certain age ?

If so......what happens to their insurance contributions made during their working lives, doesn't that exempt the money grabbing insurance companies paying out when they need to?
Medicare begins at age 65, you must sign up for it, but it is automatically yours. If you have a disability, for any age, Medicare also picks up your coverage (80%, to cover the 20% you must have an additional policy, out of pocket. If you are indigent, Medicaid picks up the rest). Medicare is free of any charges on the 80%.

What you paid privately before Medicare does not go into the system, it goes to private insurance, so you do not see any of that money, even if you never filed a claim.
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Post by tude dog »

AnneBoleyn;1440759 wrote: Hmmmmmmmmm. You're heading to Medicare age. You don't want to be a hypocrite when you sign up. If you needed food stamps or other aid you might just change your mind again.


Just like Social Security. I paid for it.

My biggest problem with food stamps is the vast fraud involved.

Any and all government had outs involve fraud.
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

tude dog;1440766 wrote: Just like Social Security. I paid for it.

My biggest problem with food stamps is the vast fraud involved.

Any and all government had outs involve fraud.


I agree with you on fraud but that should not stop aid for those in need & those in need should not have to feel like criminals for needing assistance.
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Post by Bruv »

AnneBoleyn;1440764 wrote:

What you paid privately before Medicare does not go into the system, it goes to private insurance, so you do not see any of that money, even if you never filed a claim.


So Private Healthcare insurance providers are laughing all the way to the bank?

Better to get it ALL under one umbrella, from cradle to grave, with universal contributions across the board from all tax payers, graduated as to ability to pay ?
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Post by YZGI »

Bruv;1440797 wrote: So Private Healthcare insurance providers are laughing all the way to the bank?

Better to get it ALL under one umbrella, from cradle to grave, with universal contributions across the board from all tax payers, graduated as to ability to pay ?


I agree, but over here people keep spreading the rumors about people in the UK and Canada have to wait months on end to get care. Supposedly they then travel to the US and pay for care to save their lives where in the UK they just keep you on a waiting list til you die.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

YZGI;1440800 wrote: I agree, but over here people keep spreading the rumors about people in the UK and Canada have to wait months on end to get care. Supposedly they then travel to the US and pay for care to save their lives where in the UK they just keep you on a waiting list til you die.


Silly rumour that - when you need treatment you get treatment.

OK, so for non-essential treatments you may have to wait but those that need get.

As to your tales of health tourism, we have exactly the same stories of foreigners coming here for treatment.
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

Bruv;1440797 wrote: So Private Healthcare insurance providers are laughing all the way to the bank?

Better to get it ALL under one umbrella, from cradle to grave, with universal contributions across the board from all tax payers, graduated as to ability to pay ?
I agree with you completely. My parents & grandparents thought so too, so I was familiar with this notion for my entire life. Obamacare forces us, through a mandate, to make private healthcare even richer than they are.

We are run by the corporations. Anything else is socialism. Like in RobotCop, corporations are our kings & are invited to write our laws. The bankers write the banking laws, etc. Lunatics running the asylum.

eta--Greedy lunatics
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Post by Bruv »

YZGI;1440800 wrote: I agree, but over here people keep spreading the rumors about people in the UK and Canada have to wait months on end to get care. Supposedly they then travel to the US and pay for care to save their lives where in the UK they just keep you on a waiting list til you die.


I am the classic case to prove the rumours wrong.

Diagnosed after a lifetime of good health to have bowel cancer, was operated on within two weeks.

There are problems in our Health service, but if you need emergency care you get it NOW.
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Post by YZGI »

Bryn Mawr;1440830 wrote: Silly rumour that - when you need treatment you get treatment.

OK, so for non-essential treatments you may have to wait but those that need get.

As to your tales of health tourism, we have exactly the same stories of foreigners coming here for treatment.


Bruv;1440838 wrote: I am the classic case to prove the rumours wrong.

Diagnosed after a lifetime of good health to have bowel cancer, was operated on within two weeks.

There are problems in our Health service, but if you need emergency care you get it NOW.


You would be surprised with the arguments I get here over your healthcare. They all seem to know someone that knew someone that was put on a list for anything from breast cancer too having a broken leg.

Back in line says the NHS, you'll have to wait your turn.
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Post by Bruv »

You may have caught a post of mine whinging about our Accident and Emergency dept at the local hospital.

The fact is you can limp in with a sprained ankle and spend four hours waiting, meanwhile a road traffic victim or two has been ferried from the scene of the accident, directly into the depths of the hospital and has had life saving surgery, before the sprained ankle has had their second viewing by medical staff.

The priority is medical necessity, not amount of Insurance premiums paid.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

YZGI;1440892 wrote: You would be surprised with the arguments I get here over your healthcare. They all seem to know someone that knew someone that was put on a list for anything from breast cancer too having a broken leg.

Back in line says the NHS, you'll have to wait your turn.


It would be a national scandle were it to happen in real life.

As a practical example, at 11:00 last Friday my GP decided I should have an ECG and printed off a letter to that effect. I walked home to get the car, drove in to the local hospital and I was home again be 12:00 having had the test and the all clear - no emergency, no fuss, just bloody good service with no delivery side payment.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

I have never waited more than an hour at my Frenchay hospital A and E but to be fair, I don't go unless my leg is falling off.

The one's who kick up a stink at the poor reception staff at being kept waiting are Invariably, the one's with a splinter In their finger.

One occasion I was In A and E some years ago, the receptionist said that they had my last visit down as ' serious dog bites'. I told her ' Correct'. What's the problem this time she asked. Errrr serious dog bites. Then she asked had I informed the police about this dog and I had to say ' errr no, he's mine'.
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Post by fuzzywuzzy »

Well you can take my scenario if you like . Cause I'm in this at the moment.

18 months ago in outback Qld I had some pains in the gut. They were becoming pretty severe so I called into the accident and emergency department of the hospital. Two hours later I was under the knife. Would have been dead before morning if I hadn't . Walked out of that hospital 10 days later and didn't pay a cent.

Now that brings me to the present. I now have an insisional hernia..... (stitches on the inside came undone) it doesn't worry me nor am I in pain .........can still lift things etc etc . I'm on a waiting list to get it fixed, at .........again no charge. Now if something happens meantime and I'm in trouble with it I call an ambulance taken to hospital and I will be immediately admitted and under the knife again in a jiffy because again it will be an emergency. again at no charge Meantime however I'm on a waiting list to see a surgeon and will again be on a waiting list for the op.............but do you see it's no biggy?



I don't understand why you would be against this.

Moving on to the next thing. I go to the local doctor because my arm is having some worries. It's bulk billed and I like our new doctor from Iraq who is also a surgeon. (another words he knows what he's on about but they have to do a bit of time in this country to head up the ranks so to speak).....how lucky am I to get a decent doctor eh? So I get his services for free. He sends me for an Xray ............free again. I'll go back to him tomorrow.........again for free.

If there is something terribly wrong with my arm (my hand going purple every now and again is a little alarming) it will be acted on immediately. If not, I'll go on a waiting list to see a specialist to see what the matter is. it may be just a niggly thing.
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Post by tude dog »

Reading all these great reviews of socialized medicine abroad, why didn't somebody send the recipe to our President?
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Post by fuzzywuzzy »

Like all cheques ...............it's in the mail.
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Post by fuzzywuzzy »

Ahhh but don't get me wrong. Something that's meant for everyone is going to have it's ups and downs. Btu that happens with everything. A Friday or Saturday night in any emergency department is not a good place to be . Car accidents, drunks, psych delemmas, drugs ...... but they seem to cope okay.

I remember being in the ummm...Greenbelt? (help me out here my American friends I can't remember the hospital.) I think between New York and Maine?

Anyway I was in America and my two year old was sick ....pretty sick actually. Was limp in my arms. I was stunned that the urgency was not taken into account. They had to check for insurance before he went through those doors. Meanwhile I'm looking at a man collapsed on the floor and no one sees to him. No insurance apparently (Indian doctor rolled her eyes) that to me is the kind of stuff from the poor houses of the 18th century.

Now Tude, if you came here for a holiday and something happened to you and you ended up at the hospital, no questions would be asked. They would see to you in the timely fashion that an emergency would dictate........questions are asked later.
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Post by YZGI »

tude dog;1440933 wrote: Reading all these great reviews of socialized medicine abroad, why didn't somebody send the recipe to our President?


Hearing the stories on this site alone is what turned me on to national health care. I still haven't figured out Obama care yet.
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Post by Ahso! »

YZGI;1440939 wrote: Hearing the stories on this site alone is what turned me on to national health care. I still haven't figured out Obama care yet.What part confuses you?
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

tude dog;1440933 wrote: Reading all these great reviews of socialized medicine abroad, why didn't somebody send the recipe to our President?


We called it the 'single-payer' option & everyone screamed it was socialized medicine. Of course that is what Obama wanted but didn't have the moxie to fight for it. No politician here did, except my congressman, Anthony Weiner. & we all know what happened with him.
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Post by YZGI »

Ahso!;1440974 wrote: What part confuses you?


The part where you're fined, if you don't have insurance you're fined. The people that will be fined, likely don't have it because they can't afford it. Seems a bit counter productive to me.
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Post by LarsMac »

YZGI;1440987 wrote: The part where you're fined, if you don't have insurance you're fined. The people that will be fined, likely don't have it because they can't afford it. Seems a bit counter productive to me.


The people that are "fined" will be the ones who claim that they are self-insured and don't want to have health insurance. These are the guys who think they can afford to pay the outrageous medical bills, and choose not to participate, only to find that when they actually get sick and those bills come in, they find a way to dump the cost off on the providers, or the public health care system.
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Post by Bruv »

LarsMac;1440997 wrote: The people that are "fined" will be the ones who claim that they are self-insured and don't want to have health insurance. These are the guys who think they can afford to pay the outrageous medical bills, and choose not to participate, only to find that when they actually get sick and those bills come in, they find a way to dump the cost off on the providers, or the public health care system.
Tax everybody according to their earnings across the board, a National Insurance Scheme, and call it The National Health Service.......like we do.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

tude dog;1440933 wrote: Reading all these great reviews of socialized medicine abroad, why didn't somebody send the recipe to our President?


The truth Is... our system works.

As soon as you're old enough to begin work, you pay a National Insurance stamp along with your tax which Is according to what you earn. On average weekly wage, It's around 2 %. You pay this all your working life to contribute to medical care but having said that, the system means that If you have never worked a day In your life, you will still receive the exact same treatment as those who have paid In. You can be a beggar In the street and get the same health care as a banker.

It's one of the reasons people here get narked over ' health tourism'.
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Post by Bruv »

Of course if you have loadsa money, you can always pay into a private healthcare scheme and get better treatment,often by the same doctors, in the same hospitals...................never understand how that works, or IF it works.....but it's a fact.



Strange how this thread started about Kennedy's legacy and ended up about our wonderful health service
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Post by Ahso! »

YZGI;1440987 wrote: The part where you're fined, if you don't have insurance you're fined. The people that will be fined, likely don't have it because they can't afford it. Seems a bit counter productive to me.If I understand the ACA correctly, those who can't afford the insurance are subsidized or put on medicaid, so there shouldn't be anyone who can't afford the insurance and can't get coverage. I think Lars has the rest of it covered.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

Bruv;1441013 wrote: Of course if you have loadsa money, you can always pay into a private healthcare scheme and get better treatment,often by the same doctors, in the same hospitals...................never understand how that works, or IF it works.....but it's a fact.



Strange how this thread started about Kennedy's legacy and ended up about our wonderful health service One of my brothers goes private every time here:

BMI Goring Hall Hospital - About the hospital

But....his treatment Including surgery I wouldn't say was any better than any treatment I've had In Frenchay hospital. My Sister-In-Law also goes private In Bristol and she recently had a dreadful service from them.... so horses for courses I suppose.
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Post by theia »

I'm not sure what will happen when or if hospital trusts are taken over by private companies...I think it's Virgin who has taken over some services in Devon. We are currently a social enterprise and it appears that we will probably be bought by a private company eventually.

It may be an improvement...or not. Except as a patient, I won't be around to see it as I'm leaving at Christmas.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

theia;1441062 wrote: I'm not sure what will happen when or if hospital trusts are taken over by private companies...I think it's Virgin who has taken over some services in Devon. We are currently a social enterprise and it appears that we will probably be bought by a private company eventually.

It may be an improvement...or not. Except as a patient, I won't be around to see it as I'm leaving at Christmas.


Yes, I'm unsure of these private companies also.

At least we got to Kennedy's legacy.... a health service like wot we got
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