The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:06 am

The bible shifted many gears in my mind, especially finding support for Universal Salvation in it; a most stunning find and a welcome graceful find.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:50 am

You cannot be ashamed of the bible, even though religion has shamed it through THEIR behavior, we still must stand by its truth. Atheist will jump on anything that they think will degrade the reality of God, that is their assigned job, if you are a believer, your assigned job is to bear witness that this is God's word to humanity, inspite of how believing humanity acts and lives. A lot of believers just don't know what they are doing; welcome to reality; a lot of unbelievers don't know what they are doing as well.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Fri Aug 30, 2013 3:26 pm

I think I am going to continue on this thread also, because it has drawn so much interest. The Bible is just to interesting to ignore in this reality called " Learning."

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:05 am

Something in this life should reach out to you, and be bigger than life. Something should hold a mystery in you that motivates you to dig and search; something needs to make you reach for the top;

The Bible is that something in my life.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Sun Sep 01, 2013 5:50 am

The bible can be read, or it can be lived, and then read in your life.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Sun Sep 01, 2013 8:29 am

I can't think of any other book in the world that has been influential for over 400 years! Why does the bible have so much power?

Because it obviously does.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:25 am

The bible is a good book that questionable people are trying to make bad; their efforts have yet to work, but they have a power behind that that never gives up on its fight with good.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Sun Sep 01, 2013 4:15 pm

In 1Corinth. 3:6, " I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the increase." Men can only do so much in showing people things about the bible, ultimately God has to increase the book in the human consciousness for it to be effectively seen by them.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Mon Sep 02, 2013 4:28 am

Just how much power can a book have? I mean a mere book? And if that book has real power, then that is influence; and the bible is still number one in that phenom.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:43 am

Hebrews 4:12, " For the Word of God is living and active and sharper than any two edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of the soul and Spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart." This is why the bible has lasted so long; its active and living in human hearts.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:37 am

The bible is something that needs to be " Handled Accurately", 2 Tim. 2:15, something tons of believers in God simply are not doing. Man you can mess the biblical message up very easy; and most people do not really study it. They don't; but they can really mess up its message using religion and its traditional influence.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Tue Sep 03, 2013 3:51 pm

In John 12:32, " If I be lifted up I will draw all men to me." A literal promise from Jesus. Well he got lifted up and killed, but all men have not been drawn to him; so clearly it is a future prophecy, or he failed.

My bet is its future.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:36 am

The bible is really all about helping men's lives, not condemning them. This is why I do not like this Christian hell preaching, its absurd. Jesus did not come here to condemn unbelievers; Luke 9:56, " For the Son of man did not come here to destroy men's lives, but to save them." So one shouldnot preach a gospel of destruction; but see the destruction and hell turns some Christians on, so they harp on it; and harp on unbelievers; neither is the way of God!

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:36 am

Does the bible show God being concerned with us knowing he is for us? Job 23:13, " God is unique and who can turn him? What his soul desires that he does." Well, what does he desire? 1 Tim. 2:3-4, " This is GOOD and ACCEPTABLE in the sight of God our Savior, who DESIRES ALL men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." Biblical evidence that God has desired that we all be saved, and one day know the truth;

I personally don't see anything in reality that can stop God from getting what he desires; because if such a thing existed, that thing would then be more powerful than him. I know everybody being saved is not good in some Christian eyes, but hey, salvation is not up to them.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:47 pm

In Romans 11:32, " God has shut up all in disobedience that he might show mercy to all." This is a basic reason why people are disobedient to God, their supposed to be; its a weird way of preservation. People are locked into their existence and cannot exist in any other manner; and all that just so that God will show Mercy on them all later.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:22 am

Mickiel;1435402 wrote: In Romans 11:32, " God has shut up all in disobedience that he might show mercy to all." This is a basic reason why people are disobedient to God, their supposed to be; its a weird way of preservation. People are locked into their existence and cannot exist in any other manner; and all that just so that God will show Mercy on them all later.

What corresponds with this is Romans 5:18, " So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to ALL men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to ALL men." The same ALL who were condemned, the SAME ALL are now justified by what Christ did to enter into eternal life with God; there it is right there in scripture, the salvation of us all; even to those who don't want it or accept it; its a done deal of the century!

THIS is the true gospel, this IS the Good News about our God!

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:40 am

All the troubles humanity has faced, God has a reason for it. All our suffering is not meaningless, although our reaction to the suffering, God may consider much of that as meaningless, especially those reactions that claim he does not exist. Jesus in Matt. 24:8, " But all these are merely the beginning of birth pangs." There is the reason for our suffering right there; there is the reason God has remained silent;

were all just in a large womb, going through birth pains, on the verge of being born again into his world.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Sat Sep 07, 2013 7:39 am

Jesus in Matt. 16:18," I will build my church and the gates of Hades shall not overpower it." Those who are against God and the concept of God, are a part of the gate of the grave; just dead in their view of our true destiny.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:31 am

Rev. 21:4, " And he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes, and there shall no longer be any death, there shall no longer be any mourning or crying or pain; the first things have passed away." This destroys the Christian concept of eternal hell, there will be no pain or crying in eternity. If people really studied the bible they could see things like this.

Oblivion4463 · Post by **Oblivion4463** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:40 am

Mickiel, The way that most believe comes from a mix of Moses's views and Jesus's views. Both people have a huge contradiction in there views. It was Moses that started the belief that god was a vengeful god without mercy and would condemn anyone without a second thought. This was carried into christian belief around 435AD when the Catholics came about and started to rewrite the parts of the bible that didnt fit with there way of using religion as a tool to control the masses. Mathew,Mark, Luke and John were not even written by any of them because those books were not written untill about 100-200 years after Jesus's death. The stories were told vocally because most people didnt know how to read or write during those times. During those times the stories under went some changes as it was passed that we see today in the bible and it makes it hard to tell what really happend back then with the New Testament.

Jesus's views states that jesus is a merciful god who is not jealous unlike Moses's view of god being a vengeful god that is jealous which would mean that god is weak and selfish if he is jealous.

Moses's view=an unrighteous god...Jesus's view= a righteous god.

The Old testament is wrong because the old testament is Moses's views and those that wrote after him in the old testament are basing there views and stories after Moses's view.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:56 am

Oblivion4463;1436189 wrote: Mickiel, The way that most believe comes from a mix of Moses's views and Jesus's views. Both people have a huge contradiction in there views. It was Moses that started the belief that god was a vengeful god without mercy and would condemn anyone without a second thought. This was carried into christian belief around 435AD when the Catholics came about and started to rewrite the parts of the bible that didnt fit with there way of using religion as a tool to control the masses. Mathew,Mark, Luke and John were not even written by any of them because those books were not written untill about 100-200 years after Jesus's death. The stories were told vocally because most people didnt know how to read or write during those times. During those times the stories under went some changes as it was passed that we see today in the bible and it makes it hard to tell what really happend back then with the New Testament.

Jesus's views states that jesus is a merciful god who is not jealous unlike Moses's view of god being a vengeful god that is jealous which would mean that god is weak and selfish if he is jealous.

Moses's view=an unrighteous god...Jesus's view= a righteous god.

The Old testament is wrong because the old testament is Moses's views and those that wrote after him in the old testament are basing there views and stories after Moses's view.

You are correct about Catholics rewriting parts of the bible to fit their religion; you are wrong about the 4 gospels; Matthew wrote the book of Matthew , and he wrote it only 50 years after Christ death. Mark wrote the book of Mark only 68 years after Christ death. Luke wrote Luke only 60 years after Christ death, and John wrote John 85-90 years A.D. They all wrote the books named after them, and all less than 100 years after Christ died, most 60 years after he died. And those time lines stand true for all the books in the New Testement, none of them were written over 100 years after Christ death, that is a myth and just not true.

And Moses view of God was not much different than Christ, but his experience with God WAS far different than Christ. And I totally disagree that the OT is wrong.

You can cross check these time lines with the New American standard Edition bibles, any Scofeild reference guide, The World Bible Publishers, The Oxford University Press, and The Lockman Foundation.

Oblivion4463 · Post by **Oblivion4463** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:30 pm

Your half right. The stories were told around 50-60 after his death but were not said to have been written untill about 100 years after.

Moses said that the promise land was the land of canaan. Jesus says that the promise land is in the heart. There different. Moses's version of god was one of evil. Jesus's view was one of good.

Moses betrayed god by marching into canaan and killing all of its people thats why when Jesus came he preached....against...jewish law set by moses himself that he said was from god. Thanks to jesus we know that Moses was wrong as per the new testament. Jesus paid for it with his own blood because the jews believed in Moses's way instead of gods way.

think about this...if there was nothing wrong with moses's views then why was jesus against the jewish establishment and jewish law and died BY THERE HANDS? Also if Moses was right about god then that means that god is a jealous god( which means that he is NOT perfect) and a monster for killing people(canaanites) that did nothing wrong to anyone. Put the pices together. Jesus was against the jews view and paid for it with his blood.

The facts point to moses misinterpretaion of the word of god. Did Moses... REALLY... talk to god on mt Zion?...I think not because jesus would have been accepted by the jews instead of being killed.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:39 pm

Oblivion4463;1436216 wrote: Your half right. The stories were told around 50-60 after his death but were not said to have been written untill about 100 years after.

Moses said that the promise land was the land of canaan. Jesus says that the promise land is in the heart. There different. Moses's version of god was one of evil. Jesus's view was one of good.

Moses betrayed god by marching into canaan and killing all of its people thats why when Jesus came he preached....against...jewish law set by moses himself that he said was from god. Thanks to jesus we know that Moses was wrong as per the new testament. Jesus paid for it with his own blood because the jews believed in Moses's way instead of gods way.

Nonsense , they were written exactly when I listed them written, we know that already, and no cynic thinking can change history. You need to study. And I totally disagree with your comparrison between Moses and Jesus; Moses did not have some evil view of God, that is utter nonsense.

Oblivion4463 · Post by **Oblivion4463** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 5:05 pm

There were NO PRINTING presses back then.

The stories were said to be in circulation by 50-60 yes but they were not written down. Dont confuse the fact that they were created means writtten because it doesnt. History says that they were passed down by word of mouth for many years before they were written down. Christianity was new and written books were not moving as fast. look it up. Mathew or Mark was the first to be written down and they were not actually written untill about 200AD, during those times the story has changed many many times.

You have not answered my questions then if you believe that moses didnt have the wrong view.

1. Why was Jesus against the jewish law and jewish establishment if they were established by moses himself?

2. Why didnt the jew recognize the Messiah if Moses told them exactly how the messiah was supposed to be?

3. How come the jews(through moses) thought that the messiah was to come in on a white horse and take the thrown in the temple and destory there enemies when THAT DIDNT HAPPEN?

4.The Jews killed Jesus because he questioned jewish law established by Moses...Why?

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:43 pm

Oblivion4463;1436218 wrote: There were NO PRINTING presses back then.

The stories were said to be in circulation by 50-60 yes but they were not written down. Dont confuse the fact that they were created means writtten because it doesnt. History says that they were passed down by word of mouth for many years before they were written down. Christianity was new and written books were not moving as fast. look it up. Mathew or Mark was the first to be written down and they were not actually written untill about 200AD, during those times the story has changed many many times.QUOTE

They were written down, in fact that is one talent God made sure these authors had, they could write, not tell storys; they were writers, not story tellers; you are thinking in fairy tales. Prove to me that they were not writers.

Quote;

You have not answered my questions then if you believe that moses didnt have the wrong view.

1. Why was Jesus against the jewish law and jewish establishment if they were established by moses himself?

2. Why didnt the jew recognize the Messiah if Moses told them exactly how the messiah was supposed to be?

3. How come the jews(through moses) thought that the messiah was to come in on a white horse and take the thrown in the temple and destory there enemies when THAT DIDNT HAPPEN?

4.The Jews killed Jesus because he questioned jewish law established by Moses...Why?

The Jewish law was not established by Moses, they adapted the laws of Moses, all 600 of them; THEY called it Jewish law, not God! Jesus wiped out the laws of Moses and hung them on the 10 commandments, then he hung the Ten commandments on his law of Love. Those laws were done away with, you just want to keep them alive so they can feed your theology.

And nobody recognized Christ, Jews, Arabs, Romans, NOBODY! The Jews were just as confused as ALL of the cultures of men at that time, and STILL NOW!

The Jews did not kill Jesus, the Romans did. Jesus was not killed because of Jewish law, he was killed because it was the will of God; period! God had him destined to be killed before any human was even created. You need to study more. Your exegesis is off.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:54 pm

Oblivion4463;1436218 wrote: There were NO PRINTING presses back then.

The stories were said to be in circulation by 50-60 yes but they were not written down.

They were written down. You need to study the " Dead Sea Scrolls", over 800 documents that were written down dating between 200-400 BC,: listen, they were writing over 2,000 years before Christ was even born; and for some strange reason you are trying to manipulate the false concept of a printing press not being around, so books could not be written.

Please, get real.

Oblivion4463 · Post by **Oblivion4463** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:11 am

I never said that god called it jewish law...I said that Moses made the jewish law that...Moses...said came from god. The ten commandment were from Moses and Moses said that god is a jealous god because someone is worshiping a different god which means that god is not perfect and or evil if what Moses says is true because a perfect being CAN NOT be jealous/selfish. Iam not sure why this is hard for you to wrap your head around(no offence).

The other thing that is hard for you to understand is the fact that the REASON that the jews did NOT recongnize Christ as the Messiah is because he DID NOT FOLLOW THE GUIDE LINES that Moses set out saying that the Messiah would come as and what the Messiah was supposed to do. Jesus did nothing according to what Moses said he would do. THAT....is why they did not see him as the Messiah because MOSES WAS WRONG! Its not that hard to understand! Do you even know WHY the jews turned on Jesus??????????

Do you even know what Moses said the Messiah would do and preach? Jesus preached the opposite of what Moses said referring to the kingdom of god and the Promise Land! It was the very Promise land that Moses murdered thousands of people for that Jesus says is NOT the promise land of milk and honey at ALL! Moses got it wrong.

The jews delivered Jesus to the Romans and the Romans would not have killed him if not for the jews.

Oblivion4463 · Post by **Oblivion4463** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:23 am

Your not understanding basic commonsense.

How can the stories be past down if only one book (dead sea scrolls) is in existence back then? There well known today because of technology but back then they were only known to a very small few. The same holds true of the new testament books. There were only a few written and even then they were changed by being rewritten after being told vocally.

My point is is that the ONLY way for the stories to be passed so quickly and to have MANY MANY different versons (yes there were different version of the same books) was if there were no books for them to go off at the time and is proof that they were not written... untill... being told many many times by word of mouth. Mathew, Mark, Luke and John were not written as they are now many years ago because of a large gap in time when they were not written. If there were written down then there would not have been so many versions of the same book. In case your not aware of it the different versions of those books are almost all destroyed by the Catholics during there purge of anything that contradicted there views. Only a few survive today!

How come two different parts of the Mediterranean had three different versions of the same story with different outcomes and different views?...its because writing a book back then was a time consuming project and MOST people back then DID NOT KNOW how to read and write , not to mention they were outlawed.

The fast paced way that christianity was growing at the time and most people couldnt read or write there is no way that books were past that fast and had to be told vocally instead in secret. During that time it allowed the stories to be changed over and over again untill the Catholics made a version law around 400AD.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:54 am

Oblivion4463;1436222 wrote: I never said that god called it jewish law...I said that Moses made the jewish law that...Moses...said came from god. The ten commandment were from Moses and Moses said that god is a jealous god because someone is worshiping a different god which means that god is not perfect and or evil if what Moses says is true because a perfect being CAN NOT be jealous/selfish. Iam not sure why this is hard for you to wrap your head around(no offence).

The other thing that is hard for you to understand is the fact that the REASON that the jews did NOT recongnize Christ as the Messiah is because he DID NOT FOLLOW THE GUIDE LINES that Moses set out saying that the Messiah would come as and what the Messiah was supposed to do. Jesus did nothing according to what Moses said he would do. THAT....is why they did not see him as the Messiah because MOSES WAS WRONG! Its not that hard to understand! Do you even know WHY the jews turned on Jesus??????????

Do you even know what Moses said the Messiah would do and preach? Jesus preached the opposite of what Moses said referring to the kingdom of god and the Promise Land! It was the very Promise land that Moses murdered thousands of people for that Jesus says is NOT the promise land of milk and honey at ALL! Moses got it wrong.

The jews delivered Jesus to the Romans and the Romans would not have killed him if not for the jews.

Moses had nothing to do with Jesus being killed, and Moses has nothing to do with the biblical message of Salvation, and Moses has absolutely nothing to do with why Jesus was sent to earth, and neither do the Jews. In Rev. 13:9 Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world; this means God planned on him being killed before he even had the world made, and there were no Jews in existence when God planned on Jesus being killed. And I know why you can't wrap your head around that, because your head is enticed and fueled by biblical conspiracy theory, it turns you on to find fault in the Bible, in Moses and in Jesus, even God. Moses was not responsible for setting the tone of the Messiah, God was. Moses was not used to prepare the way for Christ, and Moses has absolutely nothing to do with the good news of the true gospel. Nor do Jews. The gospel is for everyone, not any particular race.

The Romans could not have killed Jesus if GOD did not predestine it. Your rants are typical conspiracy theory, nothing more.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:49 am

Oblivion4463;1436223 wrote: Your not understanding basic commonsense.

How can the stories be past down if only one book (dead sea scrolls) is in existence back then? There well known today because of technology but back then they were only known to a very small few. The same holds true of the new testament books. There were only a few written and even then they were changed by being rewritten after being told vocally.QUOTE

This is just more of your nonsense;the dead sea scrolls were not just " one book", they were in fact 972 books( Texts), they were very well known, the fact that they were written in four different languages, Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew and Nabataen proves that. There were many books found in that find, because thousands of books had been written during those times. Among them were the books : Enoch, Jubilees, Tobit and the Wisdom of Sirach.

QUOTE

My point is is that the ONLY way for the stories to be passed so quickly and to have MANY MANY different versons (yes there were different version of the same books) was if there were no books for them to go off at the time and is proof that they were not written... untill... being told many many times by word of mouth. Mathew, Mark, Luke and John were not written as they are now many years ago because of a large gap in time when they were not written. If there were written down then there would not have been so many versions of the same book. In case your not aware of it the different versions of those books are almost all destroyed by the Catholics during there purge of anything that contradicted there views. Only a few survive today!

How come two different parts of the Mediterranean had three different versions of the same story with different outcomes and different views?...its because writing a book back then was a time consuming project and MOST people back then DID NOT KNOW how to read and write , not to mention they were outlawed.

The fast paced way that christianity was growing at the time and most people couldnt read or write there is no way that books were past that fast and had to be told vocally instead in secret. During that time it allowed the stories to be changed over and over again untill the Catholics made a version law around 400AD.

Once a book was written, that was the only version, and those books were not rewritten and your cynicism cannot change written history into verbal history. The bible itself is not just one book, its 66 books. Moses was given the Ten Commandments in 1,4000 B.C., by 500 B.C. all the original Hebrew manuscripts had been written, 39 OT books. By 200 B.C. we had the complete Septuagint Greek manuscript, 39 OT books and 14 Apocrypha books. By the 1st century AD we had all the complette original Greek manuscripts. In 315 AD Athenasius identifies the 27 books. By 382 AD Jerome's latin vulgate contained all 80 books; 39OT, 14 Apocrypha and 27 NT. There were no different versions of these originals, that came much later in our diverse centuries.

Oblivion4463 · Post by **Oblivion4463** » Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:10 pm

Let me break it down for you with your own understanding of how you think it is because your getting things twisted.

1. This is what you said..."Moses had nothing to do with Jesus's death". Here is where your wrong....Jesus... WAS...betrayed by his own people (Jews) and...WAS...killed by his own people BECAUSE Jesus's views were not in line with what Jewish beliefs were. JEWISH BELIEF AND TRADITIONS WAS MADE BY MOSES...DID YOU HEAR WHAT I SAID?!?!?!....MOSES! BECAUSE OF MOSES VIEWS ON GOD THE JEWISH HIGH PRIESTS CONDEMNED JESUS BECAUSE HE WENT AGAINST THERE BELIEFS AND TRADITIONS.........SET.........BY........MOSES himself! Jesus's views prove that Moses was wrong.

2. This is the second part of where your wrong of what you just said. Moses...MOSES...said that the Messiah would come on a white horse in armor and walk into the temple and claim his place on the throne forever.

DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT HAPPEND INSTEAD????????????? Jesus came on a donkey wearing rags and didnt even make it into the temple BECAUSE HE WAS ANGRY of what HIS people had become and what they did(killed the Canaanites). He over turned tables and left WITHOUT TAKING THE THRONE LIKE MOSES SAID HE WOULD.

THIS is why and proof that the promise land is NOT Canaan at all AS MOSES SAID IT WAS but instead its in our hearts there by saying that Moses was wrong.

So...Either Jesus is NOT the Messiah or Moses was wrong!

Oblivion4463 · Post by **Oblivion4463** » Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:35 pm

I dont think your understanding what Iam talking about.

History Channel and National Geographic seem to disagree with you on that the books DID change...

Once a SINGLE book was written does NOT mean that there was only one version many years down the road, let me explain how books worked back then since you seem to think that it was the same back then as it is today.

1. In order for ONLY one version to be passed down then there would have to have been a manufacturing of those books from a SINGLE location by a SINGLE author or under the supervision OF THAT SAME AUTHOR! Example: if you have a book in Spain and a book written in Egypt on the same story with the same views and you compared them together YOU ARE NOT GOING TO HAVE THE SAME TWO BOOKS WITH THE SAME TWO STORIES AND VIEWS. Its even more so with the added element of time....

2. There was no way to tell which book was the original version because there was no way...BACK THEN... to VALIDATE which one was!

3. Books were NOT made fast enough back then to catch up with the fast pace that Christianity was growing so most SECTS of christians didnt HAVE ANY BOOKS.

4. Have you see how many books were written? Did you even notice that there are MANY books today that have been found that all have DIFFERENT stories and VIEWS of what happend back then?.....HOW DID THAT HAPPEN?

The proof is there and you dont seem to understand at all how information was passed on back then. It was not a straight line like it is today!

Before you go believing in something you need to understand its origins and how things were back then in order to not get caught up in a mis understanding that effect your believes and way of thinking...Question everything!

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:35 pm

Oblivion4463;1436305 wrote: Let me drake it down for you with your own understanding of how you think it is because your getting things twisted.

1. This is what you said..."Moses had nothing to do with Jesus's death". Here is where your wrong....Jesus... WAS...betrayed by his own people (Jews) and...WAS...killed by his own people BECAUSE Jesus's views were not in line with what Jewish beliefs were. JEWISH BELIEF AND TRADITIONS WAS MADE BY MOSES...DID YOU HEAR WHAT I SAID?!?!?!....MOSES! BECAUSE OF MOSES VIEWS ON GOD THE JEWISH HIGH PRIESTS CONDEMNED JESUS BECAUSE HE WENT AGAINST THERE BELIEFS AND TRADITIONS.........SET.........BY........MOSES himself! Jesus's views prove that Moses was wrong.

2. This is the second part of where your wrong of what you just said. Moses...MOSES...said that the Messiah would come on a white horse in armor and walk into the temple and claim his place on the throne forever.

DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT HAPPEND INSTEAD????????????? Jesus came on a donkey wearing rags and didnt even make it into the temple BECAUSE HE WAS ANGRY of what HIS people had become and what they did(killed the Canaanites). He over turned tables and left WITHOUT TAKING THE THRONE LIKE MOSES SAID HE WOULD.

THIS is why and proof that the promise land is NOT Canaan at all AS MOSES SAID IT WAS but instead its in our hearts there by saying that Moses was wrong.

So...Either Jesus is NOT the Messiah or Moses was wrong!

Are you just acting dense? In Rev. 5:9 again Jesus was predestined to be killed by God, not Jews. In verse 4-8 it explains who had Jesus killed and why; you are trying to explain Jesus death by events that happened while he was a human, but those were predetermined during a time that he was not even yet made a human.

Its academic; this is not for your brain to comprehend. But your brain is all you have to understand what you understand.

Oblivion4463 · Post by **Oblivion4463** » Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:04 pm

Also Mickiel,

(For your FYI iam not Islam I am Christian.)

Most early Christians (who are now considered to be Gnostics by historians) ended up for the most part becoming Islamic(a new religion that was forming). In Islam they believe in Abraham, Moses, Jesus(yes they believed in Jesus) and Mohammed. They believed that with each new Prophet the new prophets views would override the past prophets views because the new one would understand god better then the last for many different reasons. After Mohammed they override the views of Abraham,Moses, and Jesus's views.

The reason that Jesus died was because Moses mis understood WHAT THE PROMISE LAND WAS SET BY ABRAHAM. Jesus says that the KINGDOM IS INSIDE YOU AND NOT CANAAN!

Moses says that the Promise land is Canaan!

Jesus says that the Promise Land is INSIDE YOU!...Do you see the conflict?

This led Moses to kill thousands! MOSES...WAS...WRONG ABOUT THE PROMISE!

Since alot of the early christians(before Catholics stremlined christianity) formed Islam and the early christians believed that Moses was wrong according to Jesus about God promise.

ALOT OF CHRISTIANS FORMED ISLAM in response to Catholics banning certain views that early christians held.

Nor Christian or Islam is the same today as it was back then...Both have changed over time and for the most part not for the better.

Catch up on history a bit more.

Oblivion4463 · Post by **Oblivion4463** » Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:11 pm

The whole book of revelations is about Peters vision of the Messiah that would come and die because of the WRONG DOING of his people(Jews). Peter came under the service of Jesus through of the vision that is now called revelations. In revelations he is told that he would be killed...THAT IS WHY PETER IS SO PROTECTIVE OF JESUS IN THE STORY (he hated Jewdus and attacked the guard and followed him to be interigated by the high priests)! He doesnt want him to die as his vision told him it would.

Your not understanding the origins of the stories and your getting confused.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:17 pm

[QUOTE=Oblivion4463;1436313

The reason that Jesus died was because Moses mis understood WHAT THE PROMISE LAND WAS SET BY ABRAHAM. Jesus says that the KINGDOM IS INSIDE YOU AND NOT CANAAN!

Moses say.

You are shallow in your understanding; the reason Jesus died was because God had already created , through Adam, the need for Jesus to come to earth and save humanity. Jesus had to die to fulfill Gods plan of salvation for humanity. Your type of shallow insight is what much of deception is made of.

Oblivion4463 · Post by **Oblivion4463** » Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:45 pm

A lack of understanding creates ignorance. Ignorance is what deception targets! Ignorant people dont question things and yet throw themselves at a belief that they dont even know the origins in and have the ignorance to call those that question ignorant.

If you are not questioning everything and yet throwing your self in a believe that is only supported by faith and TRUSTING things as they are then that is ignorance. and the root of all sin is ignorance even with the intentions of good.

Abraham rejoiced when he knew there would be a Messiah. The thing is is that they mis understood the promise and what the Messiah was to do. The Messiah was to die in battle and not on a cross like he did.

Have you not been paying attention?

Look at the facts....

1.Jesus is the Messiah(as per the story)

2. Jewish High priests DONT believe that he is the Messiah.

3. Jewish law is dictated by Moses long ago.

4. Messiah was to come on a white horse in armor and take the promise Land's throne in Canaan.

5. Jesus came on a donkey in rags to take the promise lands throne in our hearts.

6. Revelations speaks of a different kingdom then Moses did as stated by numbers 4 and 5.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:42 pm

Who made Jesus the Messiah , the Jews, Moses or God? Answer, God.

Who sent Jesus to earth? Moses, the Jews, or God? Answer God!

Who planned all that happened to Moses, the Jews, and Jesus? They themselves,human history or God? Answer, God!

Who had Jesus killed? The Jews, Moses or God? Answer God! He used the Jews and Romans to do HIS will!

Who makes your views of all this so confused? You, Moses, the Jews, or God? Answer God!

God is always the source that humans cannot detect.

Oblivion4463 · Post by **Oblivion4463** » Thu Sep 19, 2013 3:03 pm

WOW, ok, I see now why your confused. Your not understanding me at all.

I will make it simple as possible.

1. True, God DID make Jesus the Messiah, never said it was any different.

2. True, God DID send Jesus to earth, I never said the opposite.

3. Your half true on the third one, God LAID out the promise and the foundation of the future and it was up to US to carry it out. God does NOT make us do anything! WE...failed in that task and Jesus had to correct it just as God had known it would(story of Jesus's forgiveness)!

4. Not true on this one, God made it clear in the beginning that the Messiah was to be our God on earth to take the throne in his kingdom. Moses didnt understand the promise as God had planned it and it made the JEWISH HIGH PRIESTS to KILL Jesus because of his views AGAINST Moses's view(You keep dodging this point)!

Moses thought that the Messiah would come to earth with a sword of vengeance on His enemies ("Those who live by the sword die by the sword" -Jesus). Moses lived by the Sword and not by mercy when he killed the many thousands of Canaanites (again you dodge this point as well)!

Jesus who is the Messiah lived by mercy and grace and died by mercy and grace but was put to the sword(so to speak)by Moses's own Law........Oh the Irony!

Again and again and again you fail to see the conflict and the reason he died on the cross. Mercy(Jesus's Law) vs no mercy(Moses's Law). It was not the Romans that yelled "crucify him"!...It was the Jewish people...Moses's people!

Ask yourself this....

1. If Jesus's views did not contradict Moses's views on the promise then do you think that Jesus would have Killed the men, women and children of the Canaanites like Moses did or would Jesus had forgiven them like he ACTUALLY DID?

2. If Jesus forgave us(and Jesus's views are the same as Moses's) then why did Moses Kill the Canaanites when it goes against Jesus's own views and teachings on mercy and not living by the sword?

3. If Jesus is forgiving to the point of his own pain and suffering and even death then how could he approve the killing of the Canaanites(what Moses did) when it goes against Jesus's own teachings of forgiving those that trespass on you? (Remember, Moses Trespassed on the Canaanites and it was Moses that drew his sword on them).

4. Why were the High Priests and the Jewish people against Jesus?

5. Why didnt the Jewish people make Jesus there God on earth like Moses said would happen?

6. Is Jesus against gay people like Moses was?

If man was not ment to detect God then God is not ment for man! If his word and law cannot be detected by man then it is not ment for mankind like a dog or a cat is not ment for subjugation into human laws.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Thu Sep 19, 2013 3:23 pm

I must say, Oblivion, that your thoughts are refreshing & have made this thread relevant & most interesting. I value your input, whether Mickiel wants me to or not.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:30 pm

Oblivion4463;1436347 wrote: WOW, ok, I see now why your confused. Your not understanding me at all.

.

Why don't you go talk to someone who is not confused, and take Anne with you. I hold absolutely no interest in either of you.

Peace on your journey.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:17 am

Mickiel;1436360 wrote: Why don't you go talk to someone who is not confused, and take Anne with you. I hold absolutely no interest in either of you.

Peace on your journey.

This comment highlights why you should not be in a Public Forum. You are not writing to anyone but yourself, & you are doing so narcissistically. Define that you ask? Sure. Narcissistically: 1. having an undue fascination with oneself; vain. 2. an exceptional interest in or admiration for oneself.

You have no interest in having a conversation with anyone but yourself. It is You who is Rude. Oblivion is trying to share views with you; discuss with you, and you say "I hold absolutely no interest....". You just get a charge from seeing your own name in print; your own point of view Unopposed.

Another definition of narcissist: " tending to derive erotic gratification from admiration of one's own physical or mental attributes."

Narcissistically | Define Narcissistically at Dictionary.com

I wouldn't put that past you. You make no effort to relate on this, a Public Forum. And I doubt you care if anyone has peace or not.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:01 am

The bible has shifted many gears in my mind, and produced many nerve wrecking annoying things in the Atheist mind.

Oblivion4463 · Post by **Oblivion4463** » Fri Sep 20, 2013 11:40 am

Thank you very much Anna, I appreciate it!

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Fri Sep 20, 2013 11:52 am

Oblivion4463;1436383 wrote: Thank you very much Anna, I appreciate it!

I talked with you for 3 days and the conversation went nowhere. Your bent on getting your views of Moses and the Jews out, I simply hold no interest in your view of Moses or the Jews. I think they are twisted and conspiracy minded. When you first stated that Moses view of God was evil, I already knew we couldnot talk, but I went ahead for 3 days anyhow. As far as Anne, she will say anything negative about me that she can; I talked to her for a few months and she ended up trying to get me banned, so one has to use their own sense of who they can talk to and why; you just seem like someone caught up on some Moses- Jew kick.

I never have been interested in conspiracy theories. I am sure you can find someone here who will endulge you;

its just not me.

Peace.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:41 am

I am willing to debate with anyone, and I have for years; the experience from those years affords me the ability to know when debate with a certain person will really get nowhere. Especially when that person is like me, cannot be turned from their belief

Oblivion4463 · Post by **Oblivion4463** » Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:57 am

If you cant be turned from your belief even if it is in the face of truth itself contradicting your own views then that is called indoctrination/manipulation.

Mickiel, be careful not to put your trust in your beliefs because it is said that you "build your house on the rock". How do you know that you have built your house on the rock?...a rock does not shake and a rock can NOT be defeated in a test. If your faith is shaken and your faith is tested against facts then you...HAVE...built your house on quick sand and you have NOT built your house on the rock. God has a way of letting us know when we are in a false truth...its with common sense, if his house is the rock then it will not shake and if YOUR faith shakes then we are NOT TO PUT OUR TRUST IN FAITH AT ALL BECAUSE FAITH IS NOT THE ROCK.

Faith is for the blind and ignorant bliss. Blind faith with god is still the same as blindness without god.

BTW my view is not a conspiracy because no one is conspiring with or against anyone! The only conspiracy is the one that the High priest did against Jesus when they took him under the cover of night.

If you can find god without any religion then you know that your house is on the rock because religion is a tool for evil. Religion corrupts and blinds and manipulates people that are unknown to its effects on themselves and to the rest of the world.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:18 am

Oblivion4463;1436467 wrote: If you cant be turned from your belief even if it is in the face of truth itself contradicting your own views then that is called indoctrination/manipulation.

Mickiel, be careful not to put your trust in your beliefs because it is said that you "build your house on the rock". How do you know that you have built your house on the rock?...a rock does not shake and a rock can NOT be defeated in a test. If your faith is shaken and your faith is tested against facts then you...HAVE...built your house on quick sand and you have NOT built your house on the rock. God has a way of letting us know when we are in a false truth...its with common sense, if his house is the rock then it will not shake and if YOUR faith shakes then we are NOT TO PUT OUR TRUST IN FAITH AT ALL BECAUSE FAITH IS NOT THE ROCK.

Faith is for the blind and ignorant bliss. Blind faith with god is still the same as blindness without god.

BTW my view is not a conspiracy because no one is conspiring with or against anyone! The only conspiracy is the one that the High priest did against Jesus when they took him under the cover of night.

If you can find god without any religion then you know that your house is on the rock because religion is a tool for evil. Religion corrupts and blinds and manipulates people that are unknown to its effects on themselves and to the rest of the world.

You have made two errors in your evaluation and assumption of me; I am not in a religion, I do not belong to any religious group, I don't go to any church, and I am not a religious man; secondly, I have no faith; I do not depend on faith, I trust only in the facts as I understand them. I am not a man of faith; my belief is based on what I can consciously comprehend. This is why its not reasonable for you to converse with me; there is a gulf fixed between us, you think I am something that I am not. Your judgement of me is flawed; and my understanding of your mind is flawed, I just don't know where your coming from. And I hold no interest in rants on religion, been there and done that; until I myself got tired of doing it.

Peace.

Oblivion4463 · Post by **Oblivion4463** » Mon Sep 23, 2013 11:08 pm

I am also not religious. I understand that your not understanding me very well. I was just saying that 95% of people dont even understand ANY thing of the bible or where its even from and where the new testament and old testament are different and contradicting.

My point is...Moses wrote the first 5 books and made the foundation of Jewish law and by the SAME LAW that Moses made put Jesus to death and is condemned instead of taking the throne like Abraham and Moses and God said Jesus would do...All because of Moses with his hands covered in blood of women and children.

Anyway, you said you like to debate but how can you debate if your not even willing to see other views and to consider them?

I give more then enough evidence to consider what Ive said and you either are not even reading it or your just not wanting to debate but to argue or find confirmation in what you believe and will not consider anything else.

You still have not answered any of my questions that puts your views and beliefs in question. If your right then answer my questions ive made then! If you need me to ask them again then let me know.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:54 am

Oblivion4463;1436503 wrote: I am also not religious. I understand that your not understanding me very well. I was just saying that 95% of people dont even understand ANY thing of the bible or where its even from and where the new testament and old testament are different and contradicting.

My point is...Moses wrote the first 5 books and made the foundation of Jewish law and by the SAME LAW that Moses made put Jesus to death and is condemned instead of taking the throne like Abraham and Moses and God said Jesus would do...All because of Moses with his hands covered in blood of women and children.

Anyway, you said you like to debate but how can you debate if your not even willing to see other views and to consider them?

I give more then enough evidence to consider what Ive said and you either are not even reading it or your just not wanting to debate but to argue or find confirmation in what you believe and will not consider anything else.

You still have not answered any of my questions that puts your views and beliefs in question. If your right then answer my questions ive made then! If you need me to ask them again then let me know.

I am not interested in conspiracy theories about Jews and Moses, how many times must I tell you that? What, now your just trying to ram your thoughts down my head? You still have not understood what I said to you. The Jews or Moses or the Law, NONE of those things had Jesus Killed, I showed you in Revelations and the Garden of Eden WHY Jesus was killed and who arranged it. It was God who had Jesus killed, a fact that seems to soar right by your head. And I am not going to try and ram that through your wall. It was God who " Set Adam up to fail" in the garden of Eden. It was God who directed the events in the Garden of Eden, and it was God who purposely arranged for Adam and Eve to be outclassed by the serpent. Why? Well because he was CREATING the NEED for Christ to come to earth and DIE for humanity. God PLANNED Jesus death before he even had the world created; you are a " Surface Dweller", you are looking on the surface as to why Jesus was killed and you think you have discovered some grave fault in the bible, your just totally missing who really set all these events up.

And there is nothing I can do, absolutely nothing in my power to show you these things; and I already know that. The explination above is how I view this, you view it as Moses got Jesus killed and the Jews; what in the world of reason is there to debate with you?