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Accountable
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Post by Accountable »

Bruv;1414222 wrote: Break that down for the jackasses amongst us.....me.
A right is a right, regardless of how or why a person chooses to exercise it.

Our right to bear arms does not go away simply because I choose not to own a gun. It is no less a right if a person carries a gun because he likes to feel like he's in the wild west.

Our right to worship as we choose does not go away simply because Ahso thinks doing so is dumb, gmc thinks it's dangerous, or I stop.

Our right to a free press does not go away simply because every major media outlet has chosen sides and spins the news to favor their own points of view.

Regardless of justification or lack of justification, we still have our rights so long as we still have some semblance of the Rule of Law.
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Post by Ahso! »

Accountable;1414223 wrote: It's my attempt at keep the discussion generic and steering it away from becoming personal. I don't think Tude's ability or inability to justify his personal preferences are really that important to the bigger picture.One can only mutually discuss what everyone comes armed with :).

Frankly, I'm not quite sure what TD's arguments are. He appears to be parroting what the gun lobby is also saying. If i"m wrong about thet I'm hoping he'll set me straight.

My pushing is an attempt to get TD to clarify his position so as to have a rational discussion.
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Post by Accountable »

I think the very existence of the argument screams that a federal one-size-fits-all approach is a mistake. Blanket allowance is not realistic in every instance. Blanket prohibition is anti-liberty. Repeal the Second Amendment but continue to prohibit any federal input on the issue. Leave it to the states or the people.
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Post by tude dog »

Ahso!;1414201 wrote: It's also: 1) the law, and I'm sure you're a law abiding citizen; 2) If you do happen to be in an accident and you're not wearing a seat belt, have fun getting the insurance company to pay; 3) actions can become habitual after a certain time of doing them; and 4) we develop relationships with even inanimate objects for the purpose of dependency.


The risk of a ten dollar fine has zero to do with my using a seat belt. Fact is, my habit began before there were seat belt laws when I installed a seat belt in my car. Using a seat belt is a wise practice.
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Post by tude dog »

Bruv;1414205 wrote: But you failed to answer both questions.

Why ?

Seat belts have been proven to save lives, I personally have never heard of any firearm saving lives, in fact the opposite.


OK, let me spell this out for you.

I carry a gun for the possibility I may need to use it for self protection. No way to know if or when that may happen, same logic applies to my gun as my use of a seat belt.

Depending on whose numbers you may believe, but guns are used 2 or 3 hundred thousand times a year for self defense. That is not to mention the deterrent value it has should some ner-do-well contemplate breaking into your home.

Some examples of daily gun use for defense purposes.

GUNS SAVES LIVES
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Post by Ahso! »

Guns also take life. Most situations where guns save lives is from the use of other guns. Take ALL the guns possible out of circulation. The rest we'll deal with as the situations arise.
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Post by tude dog »

Ahso!;1414228 wrote: One can only mutually discuss what everyone comes armed with :).

Frankly, I'm not quite sure what TD's arguments are. He appears to be parroting what the gun lobby is also saying. If i"m wrong about thet I'm hoping he'll set me straight.



My pushing is an attempt to get TD to clarify his position so as to have a rational discussion.


I have no illusions about setting anybody straight.

The NRA, SAF and others happen to represent many of my views. That is not me parroting.

How can I be more clear? I exercise and value my right to keep and bear arms.
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Post by Ahso! »

tude dog;1414244 wrote: I have no illusions about setting anybody straight.

The NRA, SAF and others happen to represent many of my views. That is not me parroting.

How can I be more clear? I exercise and value my right to keep and bear arms.That's fine. Thanks. It's when we get into the nuts and bolts of the thing that you become vague.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

Ahso!;1414228 wrote: One can only mutually discuss what everyone comes armed with :).

Frankly, I'm not quite sure what TD's arguments are. He appears to be parroting what the gun lobby is also saying. If i"m wrong about thet I'm hoping he'll set me straight.

My pushing is an attempt to get TD to clarify his position so as to have a rational discussion.


No you're not... all you have done Is repeat yourself over and over again while attempting to belittle anyone who doesn't agree with you.

ok then ahso.... how eactly would you go about recalling every weapon In the country?
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Post by Bruv »

You Americans will have to bear with me here, this is a Fairy tale Disney type question.

If..... (the biggest word in the English language).....you could magically disappear ALL the firearms in private hands in the USA overnight and wipe 2nd amendment...............would you want that scenario ?
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Post by YZGI »

Bruv;1414247 wrote: You Americans will have to bear with me here, this is a Fairy tale Disney type question.

If..... (the biggest word in the English language).....you could magically disappear ALL the firearms in private hands in the USA overnight and wipe 2nd amendment...............would you want that scenario ?


Quick response.. No

I'll have to contemplate my reasons for a longer response.
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Post by Bruv »

YZGI;1414248 wrote: Quick response.. No

I'll have to contemplate my reasons for a longer response.


Quick reaction back to your quick response....

Well that's the bloody problem then...........you deserve all the bloodshed you get.

I may alter that should there be a half decent reason......
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

Bruv;1414251 wrote: ..you deserve all the bloodshed you get.

.


You're possessing a rather evocative, truculent demeanor for a post Boxing Day evening.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Accountable;1414221 wrote: No, I am saying that no justification or lack of justification for an individual to exercise a constitutional right has any bearing whatsoever on whether that person should be allowed to exercise it.

You have the wrong view of the purpose of our Constitution. It's painfully obvious by your use of quotation marks, and understandable considering your cultural history. The US Constitution does not grant rights. It only limits the federal government.


I am having difficulty understanding this - so where, as in the second amendment, the constitution appears to be granting the right to bear arms it is only limiting the federal government's right to prevent them doing so?
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Post by tude dog »

Bruv;1414251 wrote: Quick reaction back to your quick response....

Well that's the bloody problem then...........you deserve all the bloodshed you get.

I may alter that should there be a half decent reason......


Reason being the only people who benefit are thugs, rapists, murderers, thieves, burglars and so on.

Does not benefit me at all.

Proof is in Washington D.C., New York City, Chicago, IL.
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Post by YZGI »

Bruv;1414251 wrote: Quick reaction back to your quick response....

Well that's the bloody problem then...........you deserve all the bloodshed you get.

I may alter that should there be a half decent reason......
You surely don't believe that all the bloodshed will suddenly stop do you? Crazy people will find crazy ways to kill.
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Post by Bruv »

tude dog;1414255 wrote: Reason being the only people who benefit are thugs, rapists, murderers, thieves, burglars and so on.

Does not benefit me at all.

Proof is in Washington D.C., New York City, Chicago, IL.


The unarmed thugs, rapists, murderers, thieves, burglars and so on are the only beneficiaries ?

Kind of backs up my very immediate reaction to the rapid response.
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Post by Accountable »

Bruv;1414251 wrote: I may alter that should there be a half decent reason......


You don't deserve a reason. Your self-righteousness will have to be comfort enough.
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Post by LarsMac »

Bruv;1414247 wrote: You Americans will have to bear with me here, this is a Fairy tale Disney type question.

If..... (the biggest word in the English language).....you could magically disappear ALL the firearms in private hands in the USA overnight and wipe 2nd amendment...............would you want that scenario ?


No.
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Post by Bruv »

YZGI;1414256 wrote: You surely don't believe that all the bloodshed will suddenly stop do you? Crazy people will find crazy ways to kill.


It has been posted here somewhere.....the crazy that went on the rampage in Chinese school recently.

Difference being the Chinese crazy's victims are being released from hospital about now, with scars.
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Post by YZGI »

Bruv;1414251 wrote: Quick reaction back to your quick response....

Well that's the bloody problem then...........you deserve all the bloodshed you get.

I may alter that should there be a half decent reason......


Keep in mind that we're a younger, bigger, more wide open i.e. different type of society than yours. What may work for you may or may not work here.

Believe me, with the recent things that have happened in this country people are looking at different ways to handle them,what comes of it will be interesting at the very least.
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Post by LarsMac »

Bryn Mawr;1414254 wrote: I am having difficulty understanding this - so where, as in the second amendment, the constitution appears to be granting the right to bear arms it is only limiting the federal government's right to prevent them doing so?


Actually, it is prohibiting both federal and state from doing so.
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Post by Accountable »

Bryn Mawr;1414254 wrote: I am having difficulty understanding thisRight. Most people have trouble thinking outside their own box. Your entire history is the people taking the scraps granted them by the royalty, who in turn were granted their position by God. Even today, your idea of power is forcing the government to grant you more from their coffers, rather than claiming responsibility for yourself.

Bryn Mawr;1414254 wrote: so where, as in the second amendment, the constitution appears to be granting the right to bear arms it is only limiting the federal government's right to prevent them doing so?Liberty is ours. Law does not liberate, it can only restrict. In the case of the Constitution, we allow that some minimal amount of government is necessary, but we use our Constitution to restrict the federal gov't from limiting our liberty any more than necessary. Unfortunately, over time more and more Americans forget that we are unique in the world, and are ceding more and more of our liberty to that which should be kept caged. and controlled.
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Post by Bruv »

oscar;1414253 wrote: You're possessing a rather evocative, truculent demeanor for a post Boxing Day evening.


Don't know why Kids dieing should wind ME up so much.........ain't my kids.
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Post by LarsMac »

Bruv;1414264 wrote: Don't know why Kids dieing should wind ME up so much.........ain't my kids.
If kids dying winds you up, there are plenty in the world to be wound up over.
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Post by YZGI »

Bruv;1414260 wrote: It has been posted here somewhere.....the crazy that went on the rampage in Chinese school recently.

Difference being the Chinese crazy's victims are being released from hospital about now, with scars.


At this point in time there is estimated to be over 200,000,000 guns personally owned in the U.S.A. Not counting the illegal guns in circulation or the access to black market guns from Mexico, South America etc. etc. Now you tell me how to get guns out of the hands of not only law abiding citizens but the criminals and would be criminals? It's not gonna happen in my lifetime. We have a history and tradition of hunting in our wide open countrysides that I not only participate in but can't see going away.
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Post by tude dog »

Bruv;1414257 wrote: The unarmed thugs, rapists, murderers, thieves, burglars and so on are the only beneficiaries ?

Kind of backs up my very immediate reaction to the rapid response.


Don't like the answer, to bad.

I just don't cherish being at the mercy of all the above, and more. That may work for you, but thankfully not in my world.
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Post by Bruv »

Accountable;1414258 wrote: You don't deserve a reason. Your self-righteousness will have to be comfort enough.
My self-righteousness ?

I gave a fantasy opt out of a nightmare scenario.

It appears an occasional massacre is acceptable for freedom to bear arms sake.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Accountable;1414263 wrote: Right. Most people have trouble thinking outside their own box. Your entire history is the people taking the scraps granted them by the royalty, who in turn were granted their position by God. Even today, your idea of power is forcing the government to grant you more from their coffers, rather than claiming responsibility for yourself.


You're having the same difficulty - ask Charles I :-)

Accountable;1414263 wrote: Liberty is ours. Law does not liberate, it can only restrict. In the case of the Constitution, we allow that some minimal amount of government is necessary, but we use our Constitution to restrict the federal gov't from limiting our liberty any more than necessary. Unfortunately, over time more and more Americans forget that we are unique in the world, and are ceding more and more of our liberty to that which should be kept caged. and controlled.


Fair enough.

Another area that we in the UK struggle to understand is the division of responsibility between federal and state governments as it has no equivalent here - we go straight from national to county and there is no overlap in function.

From here it appears that you have more to fear from the multi-nationals than from the federal government.
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Post by Accountable »

Bryn Mawr;1414273 wrote: You're having the same difficulty - ask Charles I :-)After wresting power from the monarchy, England reinstalled a monarch after only one decade. I wonder what that election campaign was like. Who did Charles II win the popular vote over?

Bryn Mawr;1414273 wrote: Fair enough.

Another area that we in the UK struggle to understand is the division of responsibility between federal and state governments as it has no equivalent here - we go straight from national to county and there is no overlap in function.

From here it appears that you have more to fear from the multi-nationals than from the federal government.We were originally set up more along the lines of the EU. We didn't become a de facto hierarchy until constitutional violations of the American Civil War, which was secured by the 17th Amendment in 1913. If by multinationals you mean corporations, then I agree, but that's because they have far too much influence over the federal gov't.
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Post by Ahso! »

tude dog;1414267 wrote: Don't like the answer, to bad.

I just don't cherish being at the mercy of all the above, and more. That may work for you, but thankfully not in my world.Why is it in your mind that you occupy your thoughts with this and I don't?
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Post by gmc »

Accountable;1414188 wrote: I never know when you're referring to me personally or the US as a society. Which is it this time?


I don't know you except as a member of this forum so any question I ask is going to be generic about the matter in hand and NOT personal. In this case however I was asking your opinion on the matter as one of the few americans that can be asked such questions without immediately assuming I am A) either being personal or B) simply anti-american with no inclination to listen. I disagree with you on a lot of things but you also make me rethink some of my what I thought were well thought out opinions anew.

I was actually thinking of guantanamo where people are being held without trial and tortured albeit in a place beyond the jurisdiction of your courst and also recent changes or attempts to get changes whereby americans could be arrested and held without trial under your terrorism laws - the National Defense Authorization Act which on the face of it seem to rather ride roughshod over the amendment I referred to. Nothing wrong with your constitution and bill of rights but I would put it to you the right to bear arms is not the most important one.

posted by accountable

After wresting power from the monarchy, England reinstalled a monarch after only one decade. I wonder what that election campaign was like. Who did Charles II win the popular vote over?


Better ask perhaps what was so bad about a military dictatorship run by fundamentalist Christians that made getting a monarch back seem such a great idea. People danced in the streets when the puritans lost their power. They weren't allowed to before they even banned christmas as being too frivolous. Charles 1 was the last monarch that ever claimed he had a god given right to rule.

I would also point to the 1689 bill of rights and perhaps even more influential was the 1647 declaration of the people that echoed down the years and even some of the very same wording is in your bill of rights. Your constitution and bill of rights in fact it owes a great deal to russet coated captains that knew what they fought for. Way off topic but please excuse the transgression. If you want links just ask.

This obsession with the second amendment seems to distract from debate about more serious infringements on your freedoms. You can carry a gun but can't stop the banks ripping you all off or corporations using up resources without regard to the long term consequences for those who live in those areas you can carry a gun but not get government to regulate business because they have to be free to operate as they like. Freedom can be an illusion It seems no one has the right to suggest that maybe the freedom to own a gun stops when it infringes on the rights of children not to be massacred.
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Post by tude dog »

Ahso!;1414287 wrote: Why is it in your mind that you occupy your thoughts with this and I don't?


Sir, I can only guess is I gauge the risk of violence from other people greater than you do.
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Post by Ahso! »

tude dog;1414372 wrote: Sir, I can only guess is I gauge the risk of violence from other people greater than you do.I understand, but have you ever wondered why? Is it physiological? Psychological? Cultural? Conditioning? Is it a choice or "hard wiring"?

What's your guess? It appears that the two of us are similar in that neither one has never been in a situation where we've needed a gun, but between the two of us you appear to have a heightened sense of anxiety about who might hurt you.

I think it's a question worth devoting some thought to.
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Post by LarsMac »

gmc;1414346 wrote: I don't know you except as a member of this forum so any question I ask is going to be generic about the matter in hand and NOT personal. In this case however I was asking your opinion on the matter as one of the few americans that can be asked such questions without immediately assuming I am A) either being personal or B) simply anti-american with no inclination to listen. I disagree with you on a lot of things but you also make me rethink some of my what I thought were well thought out opinions anew.

I was actually thinking of guantanamo where people are being held without trial and tortured albeit in a place beyond the jurisdiction of your courst and also recent changes or attempts to get changes whereby americans could be arrested and held without trial under your terrorism laws - the National Defense Authorization Act which on the face of it seem to rather ride roughshod over the amendment I referred to. Nothing wrong with your constitution and bill of rights but I would put it to you the right to bear arms is not the most important one.

posted by accountable



Better ask perhaps what was so bad about a military dictatorship run by fundamentalist Christians that made getting a monarch back seem such a great idea. People danced in the streets when the puritans lost their power. They weren't allowed to before they even banned christmas as being too frivolous. Charles 1 was the last monarch that ever claimed he had a god given right to rule.

I would also point to the 1689 bill of rights and perhaps even more influential was the 1647 declaration of the people that echoed down the years and even some of the very same wording is in your bill of rights. Your constitution and bill of rights in fact it owes a great deal to russet coated captains that knew what they fought for. Way off topic but please excuse the transgression. If you want links just ask.

This obsession with the second amendment seems to distract from debate about more serious infringements on your freedoms. You can carry a gun but can't stop the banks ripping you all off or corporations using up resources without regard to the long term consequences for those who live in those areas you can carry a gun but not get government to regulate business because they have to be free to operate as they like. Freedom can be an illusion It seems no one has the right to suggest that maybe the freedom to own a gun stops when it infringes on the rights of children not to be massacred.


You make some good points.

Were we faced with a choice of giving up the 2nd amendment or the 1st, I am sure that most of us would chose to keep the 1st.

However, most Americans see the two as a package deal. Giving up the 2nd would eventually lead to the 1st being taken away.
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Post by Accountable »

gmc;1414346 wrote: I don't know you except as a member of this forum so any question I ask is going to be generic about the matter in hand and NOT personal. In this case however I was asking your opinion on the matter as one of the few americans that can be asked such questions without immediately assuming I am A) either being personal or B) simply anti-american with no inclination to listen. I disagree with you on a lot of things but you also make me rethink some of my what I thought were well thought out opinions anew. Thank you. I'm flattered.

gmc;1414346 wrote: I was actually thinking of guantanamo where people are being held without trial and tortured albeit in a place beyond the jurisdiction of your courst and also recent changes or attempts to get changes whereby americans could be arrested and held without trial under your terrorism laws - the National Defense Authorization Act which on the face of it seem to rather ride roughshod over the amendment I referred to.Everything since the "Patriot" Act *spits*, and the subsequent laws to support it, disgust me to no end. I can't understand how any liberty-loving American can support Guantanamo or any warrantless search and seizure. These laws hardly touch the First Amendment, but they blatantly violate Amendments 4-10, every one.

Amendment 4 - Search and Seizure

Amendment 5 - Trial and Punishment, Compensation for Takings

Amendment 6 - Right to Speedy Trial, Confrontation of Witnesses

Amendment 7 - Trial by Jury in Civil Cases

Amendment 8 - Cruel and Unusual Punishment

Amendment 9 - Acknowledges other rights not listed

Amendment 10 - Powers of the States and People

gmc;1414346 wrote: Nothing wrong with your constitution and bill of rights but I would put it to you the right to bear arms is not the most important one.The First is the most important, but the Second was passed to ensure the rest don't get taken away.

gmc;1414346 wrote: Better ask perhaps what was so bad about a military dictatorship run by fundamentalist Christians that made getting a monarch back seem such a great idea. People danced in the streets when the puritans lost their power. They weren't allowed to before they even banned christmas as being too frivolous. Charles 1 was the last monarch that ever claimed he had a god given right to rule. Your use of "allowed" illustrates the main difference between your society and mine. A millenium of being granted what the gov't deigns to grant you, and demanding more when you don't think you have enough. We (at least in the beginning) granted the gov't what we deigned to grant it, then complain when it tries to take too much.

gmc;1414346 wrote: I would also point to the 1689 bill of rights and perhaps even more influential was the 1647 declaration of the people that echoed down the years and even some of the very same wording is in your bill of rights. Your constitution and bill of rights in fact it owes a great deal to russet coated captains that knew what they fought for. Way off topic but please excuse the transgression. If you want links just ask. No argument here. The ideas definitely started in Europe. My one question for now: How does the Monarchy fit into a society run by the people?

gmc;1414346 wrote: This obsession with the second amendment seems to distract from debate about more serious infringements on your freedoms.Forgive me, but the obsession is yours. You even bring it into conversations that I, for one, purposely set up to be separate from the several gun conversations going on. But the reason the conversations last so long is more human nature than any obsession.

Person 1: Everyone should be able to say whatever they think without repercussion!

Person 2: I agree!

......................................................................................................................................................... end of conversation

Person 1: Everyone should be able to carry a loaded weapon whenever and wherever they please!

Person2: What the **** are you smoking?? Nobody should be allowed to do that, not even police!

Now we have a conversation.

Get it? It's the disagreement that keeps the conversation going.
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Post by gmc »

posted by accountable

Your use of "allowed" illustrates the main difference between your society and mine. A millenium of being granted what the gov't deigns to grant you, and demanding more when you don't think you have enough. We (at least in the beginning) granted the gov't what we deigned to grant it, then complain when it tries to take too much.


The response was to get rid of the religious extremists that would impose their will on others. You kind of miss the point of british history I think - our freedoms were taken back by those who would remove them at the point of a sword the power of the church and the aristocracy were broken and since then it's been a toing and frothing between left and right the people against those who would rule because they think they are right. We have a long history of riots and uprisings forcing the pace of social change as government frantically tried to pacify the angry mobs. You have the same kind of conflicts but you express it differently, currently you have a fascist economy no doubt that will change as the people exert themselves and demand a greater say in what goes on. I put it that way because I am fairly sure ordinary people in america do not think it a good idea that corporations have so much power, (who did and why did the law change?) eventually it will be changed once enough of the electorate realise it's effect and demand it change.

We don't serve our government any more than you do yours perhaps we just are more accepting of the reality that every now and then you have to remind the bastards who is really in charge. You kid yourselves you have small government and all is well in the best of all possible countries we give our government power to do things for the benefit of all and demand they do so but smack them down if they take the piss. (or so I like to think). It's a different attitude I think, our freedom is vested in the little man turning round saying who the F are you to tell me what to do and doing something about it yours seems to be more you have the right to say it but can't really do anything about it.

Everything since the "Patriot" Act *spits*, and the subsequent laws to support it, disgust me to no end. I can't understand how any liberty-loving American can support Guantanamo or any warrantless search and seizure. These laws hardly touch the First Amendment, but they blatantly violate Amendments 4-10, every one.

Amendment 4 - Search and Seizure

Amendment 5 - Trial and Punishment, Compensation for Takings

Amendment 6 - Right to Speedy Trial, Confrontation of Witnesses

Amendment 7 - Trial by Jury in Civil Cases

Amendment 8 - Cruel and Unusual Punishment

Amendment 9 - Acknowledges other rights not listed

Amendment 10 - Powers of the States and People


Depends on what they are told about the issues doesn't it? Labour tried to extend the time he police could hold prisoners before being charged it was blocked by the lords, an institution I have mixed feelings about but the case for a second chamber independent of political parties is a strong one. Tony Bliar was a liar many here could not conceive that a prime minister would stand up and lie in such a blatant fashion any more than the reality of Bush lying was understood at the time. You seem readier ton trust your government than we are. We were also used to terrorism, the possibility of islamic terrorists rather drew the response of so?

No argument here. The ideas definitely started in Europe. My one question for now: How does the Monarchy fit into a society run by the people?


Very carefully so as not to antagonise them. It's a useful figurehead that has remarkably survived the centuries. There have been a few years when their popularity was low enough to put the institution at risk. .

Forgive me, but the obsession is yours. You even bring it into conversations that I, for one, purposely set up to be separate from the several gun conversations going on. But the reason the conversations last so long is more human nature than any obsession.

Person 1: Everyone should be able to say whatever they think without repercussion!

Person 2: I agree!

.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ... end of conversation

Person 1: Everyone should be able to carry a loaded weapon whenever and wherever they please!

Person2: What the **** are you smoking?? Nobody should be allowed to do that, not even police!

Now we have a conversation.

Get it? It's the disagreement that keeps the conversation going.


Good way of explaining it. maybe i am just fed up being told by americans that I am oppressed and live in fear of attack because I can't carry a gun. .
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Post by halfway »

I love the t-shirt that "jaws" was wearing on Happy Gilmore....

It read "Guns don't kill people, I kill people."

That's some funny shatt right there!
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Post by Ahso! »

halfway;1414419 wrote: I love the t-shirt that "jaws" was wearing on Happy Gilmore....

It read "Guns don't kill people, I kill people."

That's some funny shatt right there!So now tell me who ever said guns kill people? I realize you're hiding behind the movie to make your point so you can disavow anything in your post, but I'm giving it a try anyway. You just might surprise me.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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Post by Accountable »

Ahso!;1414455 wrote: So now tell me who ever said guns kill people?
http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/gener ... wtown.html

You've started a whole thread about it now. And not only do you say they kill people, they also create criminals!! Amazing powers these guns have. :yh_wink
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Post by Ahso! »

I should have said " by the use of...". But I think most people get that - they're not dumb enough to think I'm claiming guns are leading themselves around killing. Though, at times they do malfunction. No?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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Sink back into the ocean

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Post by Accountable »

"creating criminals"?
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Post by Ahso! »

Accountable;1415033 wrote: "creating criminals"?It's true. Easy access to firearms greatly reduces the possibility of intervention in many, many cases.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

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Post by Accountable »

Still a stretch. It's a bit like blaming poor locks for the robbery, or saying sexy skirts create rapists.
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Post by Ahso! »

No it isn't. It's an acknowledgement of the emotional sensitivities of people - all people. To various degrees obviously. I do find your comparisons on this one way off. That's alright though. you're allowed.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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Be the wave that I am and then

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Post by Accountable »

Saying that guns create criminals acknowledges the emotional sensitivities of people?

I don't see it.
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Post by Ahso! »

Okay
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

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Post by Accountable »

Hehehehe. :yh_youkid I was hoping you'd explain.
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Post by halfway »

Ties into the "over served" arguments.

Another justification of nanny-state minded individuals that cannot bring themselves to hold people accountable for their actions.

I got drunk, I got in my car, I caused a horrific incident, yet we need to blame the bar for over-serving me.

wow......
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