Petition On Guns And Schools

Ahso!
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Post by Ahso! »

Tell that the NRA that their insane idea of putting guns in schools is not our best solution

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/799/722/448/
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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Lon
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Post by Lon »

I agree-----it's insanity. What next? Armed grocery clerks, bank employees, taxi drivers, hell, let's arm everyone with bullet proof vests, hand granades, AK 47. Whoopeee, shades of the Wild West.
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

Lon;1413924 wrote: I agree-----it's insanity. What next? Armed grocery clerks, bank employees, taxi drivers, hell, let's arm everyone with bullet proof vests, hand granades, AK 47. Whoopeee, shades of the Wild West.


Even in the Wild West you sometimes had to check your guns before entering certain establishments, or indeed, to sometimes enter a town.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Petition signed
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Post by valerie »

AnneBoleyn;1413925 wrote: Even in the Wild West you sometimes had to check your guns before entering certain establishments, or indeed, to sometimes enter a town.


True, but with so many armed overall, and virtually no treatment for mental illness,

no little red school house shootings.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

Then what's the solution? America has already created the beast.

How many millions of guns are already In the hands of citizens Including semi's? Even If America Introduced new gun licensing laws or recalled all arms, It would take decades before every gun was handed In.... meanwhile another massacre takes place. In the meantime, children and teachers need protection. Even If new legislation was put In place to help the mentally Ill, It would take decades..Protection Is needed now !

Putting security guards Into schools and arming them could save lives....
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Post by Týr »

I still think that if every schoolgirl over eleven was obliged by law to carry a firearm at all times on school premises these lethal outrages would be stopped immediately.
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Post by Ahso! »

valerie;1413928 wrote: True, but with so many armed overall, and virtually no treatment for mental illness,

no little red school house shootings.How do you know this?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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Post by Ahso! »

Týr;1413931 wrote: I still think that if every schoolgirl over eleven was obliged by law to carry a firearm at all times on school premises these lethal outrages would be stopped immediately.Okay, I'll bite. Why?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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Post by Týr »

Ahso!;1413936 wrote: Okay, I'll bite. Why?


Nobody would any longer be able to go for the national high-score, which is what all these twonks are currently engaged in.
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Post by Ahso! »

oscar;1413930 wrote: Then what's the solution? America has already created the beast.

How many millions of guns are already In the hands of citizens Including semi's? Even If America Introduced new gun licensing laws or recalled all arms, It would take decades before every gun was handed In.... meanwhile another massacre takes place. In the meantime, children and teachers need protection. Even If new legislation was put In place to help the mentally Ill, It would take decades..Protection Is needed now !

Putting security guards Into schools and arming them could save lives....It's already been tried and doesn't work.

There was an armed sheriff's deputy in Columbine HS when that massacre took place. There was an armed guard in the parking lot of the Tucson Az shopping center where the Gifford shooting occurred, and there are always security guards at shopping malls not to mention that there may be armed off duty police shopping in them at any given time.

Doesn't work.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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I have only one thing to do and that's

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Post by Ahso! »

Týr;1413941 wrote: Nobody would any longer be able to go for the national high-score, which is what all these twonks are currently engaged in.Okay you're for guns on school grounds, but what's with obliging 11 year old schoolgirls all about?

If I understand you correctly, you think we need to cut this off from feeding competitive impulses. That's certainly worth considering. I personally hadn't thought of this that way.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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Post by Týr »

Ahso!;1413943 wrote: Okay you're for guns on school grounds, but what's with obliging 11 year old schoolgirls all about?I didn't restrict myself to 11 year old schoolgirls, I said all schoolgirls over the age of eleven. Arming a few adults is an irrelevance, what you need is a lot of armed people in every classroom. One armed adult in every classroom is just going to be the immediate target of the player. They're girls because allowing armed boys in school is just extending the game. It's not a game girls play if you ditch a couple of not-really-comparable instances, getting the national high-score is a male game.

I'm not saying you'd reduce the number of deaths overall, just that the reason for the deaths would no longer be twonks invading schools in order to enact their daft end-of-life fantasy.
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Post by LarsMac »

These guys are mentally out of balance, and for the most part intend to die in the event they create.

Arming more people "might" cut short the spree, but in the end, they will take some people with them.

Learn how to spot these types and keep them from going off, and you prevent deaths at their hands.

Anything else is simple fantasy.

And Armed people are not necessarily safe people.

Most of the people out there with firearms are untrained and not prepared.

Unless your armed guards are combat trained, they will probably be at best useless in such an event, and would be just as likely to create more carnage, than prevent it.
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Post by Ahso! »

So you think video games are also part of the problem, both in terms of the type of games and the culture?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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Post by Ahso! »

Of course, beating these guys at the game itself is not a realistic approach, as well formulated as you've worked it out.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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Post by Oscar Namechange »

Ahso!;1413942 wrote:

Doesn't work.


Why ?
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Post by Ahso! »

oscar;1413958 wrote: Why ?Apparently in Columbine the deputy couldn't get on top of the situation; in Tucson, the guard couldn't get off a clean shot; people in malls are apparently smart enough not to get into a shootout.

Putting more guns in play is not the answer.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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Be the wave that I am and then

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Post by Ahso! »

Anyone other than Bryn and myself actually sign the petition by any chance?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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Post by Ahso! »

LarsMac;1413946 wrote: These guys are mentally out of balance, and for the most part intend to die in the event they create.

Arming more people "might" cut short the spree, but in the end, they will take some people with them.

Learn how to spot these types and keep them from going off, and you prevent deaths at their hands.



Anything else is simple fantasy.

And Armed people are not necessarily safe people.

Most of the people out there with firearms are untrained and not prepared.

Unless your armed guards are combat trained, they will probably be at best useless in such an event, and would be just as likely to create more carnage, than prevent it.How do you think that should be accomplished?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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Post by valerie »

Ahso!;1413935 wrote: How do you know this?


I don't KNOW it know it, but I know it.

I can't claim to have read every old west newspaper of the era, but

I have seen quite a few. And I'm sure if there HAD been a shooting

way back then, somebody would have dug it up and reported it.
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Post by valerie »

Ahso!;1413942 wrote: It's already been tried and doesn't work.

There was an armed sheriff's deputy in Columbine HS when that massacre took place. There was an armed guard in the parking lot of the Tucson Az shopping center where the Gifford shooting occurred, and there are always security guards at shopping malls not to mention that there may be armed off duty police shopping in them at any given time.

Doesn't work.


The armed guard wasn't IN Columbine,he was at an outer

area of the campus, and yes probably DID save lives.

FACT CHECK: Columbine High's armed guard saved student lives - National Republican | Examiner.com
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Post by Scrat »

Talk about being on the horns of a dilemma. I say the best option is simply to enhance security at all schools and put armed guards in all of them. Every single one. We've made a hell of a mess.

I don't like anything about turning our schools into fortresses, but considering the society we live in what choice do we have? This will happen again if we do nothing, it will happen even if we do but with less bloodshed.

What a screwed up country I live in.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

Ahso!;1413947 wrote: So you think video games are also part of the problem, both in terms of the type of games and the culture?
Blaming video games Is a cop out...Take a look at your history:



Poe Elementary School Attack – September 15, 1959

University of Texas at Austin massacre – August 1, 1966

Kent State shootings – May 4, 1970

Avivim school bus massacre – May 8, 1970

Jackson State killings – May 14-15, 1970

Ma’alot massacre – May 15, 1974

California State University – July 12, 1976

Parkway South Junior High School shooting – January 20, 1983

Laurie Dann – May 20, 1988

Stockton massacre – January 17, 1989

École Polytechnique Massacre – December 6, 1989

All before video became a household Item....



A brief history of school shootings « seroxat secrets…
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Post by Lon »

What the hell is going on?



4 Firefighters Shot, 2 Killed At Webster, New York Fire Scene; Shooter Dead (UPDATE)
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Post by Ahso! »

valerie;1413964 wrote: I don't KNOW it know it, but I know it.

I can't claim to have read every old west newspaper of the era, but

I have seen quite a few. And I'm sure if there HAD been a shooting

way back then, somebody would have dug it up and reported it.You made a statistical claim without any evidence. Your statement then is invalid. Anywho, not every small town throughout American history had newspapers. However, if we look into history I'd bet we'd find instances of children being killed by guns (and other means for that matter). Native Americans anybody?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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Post by Ahso! »

valerie;1413966 wrote: The armed guard wasn't IN Columbine,he was at an outer

area of the campus, and yes probably DID save lives.

FACT CHECK: Columbine High's armed guard saved student lives - National Republican | Examiner.comHe was assigned to the school, right? He may have prevented others from dying but the fact is that he did not nor could he not prevent the situation. He could have been in the bathroom or getting lunch. How many guards did Columbine need in your opinion? No guns=no gun situations.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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Post by Scrat »

Rats in a cage syndrome? I think this is a problem of these people (people with problems or whatever) getting to their breaking points and looking for a way to leave this world with a bang.
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

Scrat;1413977 wrote: Rats in a cage syndrome? I think this is a problem of these people (people with problems or whatever) getting to their breaking points and looking for a way to leave this world with a bang.


And that is made worse by the fact that these shooters are Young Men. Reaching their breaking points & adulthood at the same time.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

Ahso!;1413976 wrote: He was assigned to the school, right? He may have prevented others from dying but the fact is that he did not nor could he not prevent the situation. He could have been in the bathroom or getting lunch. How many guards did Columbine need in your opinion? No guns=no gun situations.


Then maybe the answer Is not leaving the onus on one armed guard but to employ several security guards on all entrances and exits and arm them with semi's to the hilt.

America can not solve the problem overnight because of the amount of arms already In circulation but they can counter-act the nutters.
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Post by Scrat »

And that is made worse by the fact that these shooters are Young Men. Reaching their breaking points & adulthood at the same time.


I think our society creates them, there are not a lot of standards when it comes to decency anymore. Whatever happened to "the golden rule"? Treating others decently regardless of who they are? Some of our schools are like prisons.
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Post by Ahso! »

oscar;1413979 wrote: Then maybe the answer Is not leaving the onus on one armed guard but to employ several security guards on all entrances and exits and arm them with semi's to the hilt.

America can not solve the problem overnight because of the amount of arms already In circulation but they can counter-act the nutters.And in every mall, and bus stop, on buses, in cabs, in movie theaters, on every corner, at fires..............

Police state?

Even as a temporary measure, it's impossible.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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Post by Scrat »

Ahso is correct. It doesn't really matter what we do a shooter will go for the soft targets, where ever and what ever they may be. The best solution is more armed people it would seem or simply live with things as they are.
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Post by Ahso! »

The gun rights crowd would have us believe that just the knowledge that we're all armed will prevent shootings. If that were true then there would be no shootouts with cops around, and that just isn't accurate. I can image Penn Station in New York on a Monday morning and a couple of people pull a gun and start shooting and then guns come out everywhere as a response. The carnage would be almost immeasurable. The wild west days are behind us, let's leave them there.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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Post by Oscar Namechange »

Ahso!;1413982 wrote: And in every mall, and bus stop, on buses, in cabs, in movie theaters, on every corner, at fires..............

Police state?

Even as a temporary measure, it's impossible. Given the majority are In schools where children are killed, why not start there?
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Post by Ahso! »

oscar;1413993 wrote: Given the majority are In schools where children are killed, why not start there?And each and every Day Care facility? I wonder how many of those we have.

I think the price tag is around 6billion per year.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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Post by Clodhopper »

signed.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

Ahso!;1413996 wrote: And each and every Day Care facility? I wonder how many of those we have.

I think the price tag is around 6billion per year. Wouldn't you rather lose the money and keep your children safe?
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Post by Ahso! »

oscar;1414005 wrote: Wouldn't you rather lose the money and keep your children safe?Perhaps you'd like to show me the money, Oscar?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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Post by LarsMac »

oscar;1414005 wrote: Wouldn't you rather lose the money and keep your children safe?


Even if we spent that kind of money, could we guarantee the safety of each and every child?

I doubt it.

These kinds of events are, indeed, horrific. But, the measures needed to guarantee that such a thing never happened would be impossible.

Besides, what are twenty kids in Connecticut, compared to the more than 20 thousand that die around the world, every day?
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Post by Ahso! »

LarsMac;1414012 wrote: Even if we spent that kind of money, could we guarantee the safety of each and every child?

I doubt it.

These kinds of events are, indeed, horrific. But, the measures needed to guarantee that such a thing never happened would be impossible.

Besides, what are twenty kids in Connecticut, compared to the more than 20 thousand that die around the world, every day?Oh how I long for the day to hear one of these gun nuts publicly say something like this.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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Post by Týr »

Perhaps it hasn't occurred to anyone that law enforcement by drone missile is being practiced daily in Afghanistan by game-console fliers employed in the US by the US government. All it takes is for a given area of crime to be designated "The War On X" and drone surveillance becomes legal, judicial on-the-spot execution becomes legal.

You know full well that surveillance of all residents within the US would allow the targeting of someone on his way to shoot up a school. The sight of cars exploding on freeways is the only alternative I can see to successful school killings. Sit back, applaud on cue and it's what you'll bequeath to your children.

I see no difference at all between employing those judicial techniques in pursuit of "The War On X" abroad and deploying it domestically. Frankly, it's exactly what Americans deserve for having inflicted it elsewhere without qualms.
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Post by valerie »

Ahso!;1413974 wrote: You made a statistical claim without any evidence. Your statement then is invalid. Anywho, not every small town throughout American history had newspapers. However, if we look into history I'd bet we'd find instances of children being killed by guns (and other means for that matter). Native Americans anybody?


Oh well geez, let me do a bunch of leg work for ya! NOT. You want to pick and pick, but that's just not the way I post, and

go ahead on with your opinion my statement is invalid. No skin off my nose. I don't need the tutorial that not

every small town had newspapers, ha ha. You think you're telling me something I don't know?
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Post by valerie »

Ahso!;1413976 wrote: He was assigned to the school, right? He may have prevented others from dying but the fact is that he did not nor could he not prevent the situation. He could have been in the bathroom or getting lunch. How many guards did Columbine need in your opinion? No guns=no gun situations.


YOU said IN Columbine, hmm let's see, statistical claim w/o any evidence maybe? ;)

And you aren't (like I think Oscar mentioned) going to get rid of all the guns and no

gun situations, for decades at least.

I don't know how many guards they would have needed but better security overall would

help, including metal detectors and backpack searches.

Including people stepping up and REPORTING when some guy says something, instead of

thinking he's joking or not wanting to get him in trouble. Including better psych monitoring

for young men.
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Post by Ahso! »

valerie;1414042 wrote: Oh well geez, let me do a bunch of leg work for ya! NOT. You want to pick and pick, but that's just not the way I post, and

go ahead on with your opinion my statement is invalid. No skin off my nose. I don't need the tutorial that not

every small town had newspapers, ha ha. You think you're telling me something I don't know?You wouldn't need to do leg work if your post was based on knowledge rather than conjecture. But you're wrong when you say that children were not slaughtered back in the good old western days, unless of course you'd like to dispute what was done to Native American children. One need not look very far for that.

I don't expect you to do leg work for me when you don't bother doing for yourself. We don't have records for every school throughout our history, so to make a statement ether way would be irresponsible.
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Post by Accountable »

Cops tend to treat people like criminals. Kids who are treated like criminals tend to start acting like criminals. The two create a spiral that is definitely not conducive to academic learning.

I don't think armed guards is the answer. It's a bandaid.
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Post by Ahso! »

Accountable;1414048 wrote: Cops tend to treat people like criminals. Kids who are treated like criminals tend to start acting like criminals. The two create a spiral that is definitely not conducive to academic learning.

I don't think armed guards is the answer. It's a bandaid.That's true. It's almost like the kids are doing what they're told to do in a weird way.
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Post by Ahso! »

valerie;1414043 wrote: YOU said IN Columbine, hmm let's see, statistical claim w/o any evidence maybe? ;)

And you aren't (like I think Oscar mentioned) going to get rid of all the guns and no

gun situations, for decades at least.

I don't know how many guards they would have needed but better security overall would

help, including metal detectors and backpack searches.

Including people stepping up and REPORTING when some guy says something, instead of

thinking he's joking or not wanting to get him in trouble. Including better psych monitoring

for young men.Somebody needs to explain to me why the taxpayer should use precious resources to protect our children from the use of a dangerous product that has no use except to kill. The gun lobby wants these things in circulation, let them pay for the security.

And you're right, I said "in" and should have said "assigned to" or "at" Columbine. My mistake. But it wasn't statistical.
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Oscar Namechange
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Petition On Guns And Schools

Post by Oscar Namechange »

Ahso!;1414045 wrote:

I don't expect you to do leg work for me when you don't bother doing for yourself. We don't have records for every school throughout our history, so to make a statement ether way would be irresponsible.


No It's not.

There Is enough documented evidence on the net of every school massacre since the 18th century. I found them and listed some of them prior to 1980's to prove the point that school shootings were happening long before video games were common place.

Or would you like me to do the leg work for you? Take 2012 alone....16 mass shootings.... 88 dead.

February 22, 2012—Five people were killed in at a Korean health spa in Norcross, Georgia, when a man opened fire inside the facility in an act suspected to be related to domestic violence.

February 26, 2012—Multiple gunmen began firing into a nightclub crown in Jackson, Tennessee, killing one person and injuring 20 others.

February 27, 2012—Three students at Chardon High School in rural Ohio were killed when a classmate opened fire.

March 8, 2012—Two people were killed and seven wounded at a psychiatric hospital in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, when a gunman entered the hospital with two semiautomatic handguns and began firing.

March 31, 2012—A gunman opened fire on a crowd of mourners at a North Miami, Florida, funeral home, killing two people and injuring 12 others.

April 2, 2012—A 43-year-old former student at Oikos University in Oakland, California, walked into his former school and killed seven people, “execution-style.” Three people were wounded.

April 6, 2012—Two men went on a deadly shooting spree in Tulsa, Oklahoma, shooting black men at random in an apparently racially motivated attack. Three men died and two were wounded.

May 29, 2012—A man in Seattle, Washington, opened fire in a coffee shop and killed five people and then himself.

July 9, 2012—At a soccer tournament in Wilmington, Delaware, three people were killed, including a 16-year-old player and the event organizer, when multiple gunmen began firing shots, apparently targeting the organizer.

July 20, 2012—James Holmes enters a midnight screening of The Dark Knight Rises and opens fire with a semi-automatic weapon; twelve people are killed and fifty-eight are wounded.

August 5, 2012—A white supremacist and former Army veteran shot six people to death inside a Sikh temple in suburban Milwaukee, Wisconsin, before killing himself.

August 14, 2012—Three people were killed at Texas A&M University when a 35-year-old man went on a shooting rampage; one of the dead was a police officer.

September 27, 2012—A 36-year-old man who had just been laid off from Accent Signage Systems in Minneapolis, Minnesota, entered his former workplace and shot five people to death, and wounded three others before killing himself.

October 21, 2012—45-year-old Radcliffe Frankin Haughton shot three women to death, including his wife, Zina Haughton, and injured four others at a spa in Brookfield, Wisconsin, before killing himself.

December 11, 2012—A 22-year-old began shooting at random at a mall near Portland, Oregon, killing two people and then himself.

December 14, 2012—One man, and possibly more, murders a reported twenty-six people at an elementary school in Newtown, Connecticut, including twenty children, before killing himself.

Nick Myers contributed to research for this post.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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valerie
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Petition On Guns And Schools

Post by valerie »

Ahso!;1414045 wrote: You wouldn't need to do leg work if your post was based on knowledge rather than conjecture. But you're wrong when you say that children were not slaughtered back in the good old western days, unless of course you'd like to dispute what was done to Native American children. One need not look very far for that.

I don't expect you to do leg work for me when you don't bother doing for yourself. We don't have records for every school throughout our history, so to make a statement ether way would be irresponsible.


Show me where I said children weren't slaughtered in the good old western days. You can't, because I didn't.

And w/o finding links for God's sake I think I can safely say that a good deal of pioneer children were killed

by Native Americans, too. We weren't talking about those kinds of things. We mentioned schools in particular,

and I still think what I said was at least not far off the mark. You don't agree, I get it. I got that before I

even posted, but what the hey, it's good for business, no?

;)
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