NatWest/RBS balls-up

Post by **spot** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:06 am

BBC News - NatWest and RBS customers hit by technical problems

That all sounds consistent with a screwed up database that refuses to be recovered each time they try it, escalating the scale of the problem each time it fails.

In terms of when will it be a catastrophe, it was already that once it affected the customers. The recovery team is already in a disaster zone.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:41 am

Have they really gone and lost everyone's account?

Post by **spot** » Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:19 am

There are apparently credits from Monday that haven't shown up, according to the press, and no sign of a fix.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:33 pm

Clodhopper;1397490 wrote: Have they really gone and lost everyone's account?

...

Attached files

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:16 am

Our reliance on Computer and Internet banking is really frightening, I am a Natwest customer waiting for two large payments to show up.

Post by **spot** » Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:07 am

A mass customer exodus from NatWest/RBS might pass a message to the other UK banks to avoid such folly.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:17 am

Clodhopper;1397490 wrote: Have they really gone and lost everyone's account?

They've lost mine. I had payments in to my account that have now disappeared. I am currently overdrawn and unable to access any money.

posted by spot

A mass customer exodus from NatWest/RBS might pass a message to the other UK banks to avoid such folly.

I'm too polite to tell you what I think of the bank of scotland.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sat Jun 23, 2012 11:07 am

spot;1397641 wrote: A mass customer exodus from NatWest/RBS might pass a message to the other UK banks to avoid such folly.

Why ?

Are they not as liable to such a 'mishap'?

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:11 pm

spot;1397641 wrote: A mass customer exodus from NatWest/RBS might pass a message to the other UK banks to avoid such folly.

Copious amounts of compo Is required.

Post by **spot** » Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:20 pm

Bruv;1397655 wrote: Why ?

Are they not as liable to such a 'mishap'?

I doubt it. NatWest/RBS have notoriously squeezed and reduced their IT people until the pips have finally squeaked.

Post by **spot** » Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:29 pm

RBS chief executive Stephen Hester has apologised for technical problems which left customers of the group's banks unable to pay bills or access money. He said: "Our customers rely on us day in and day out to get things right. On this occasion we have let them down."

BBC News - RBS chief apologises for NatWest banking problems

Thank you, Mr Hester.

Do you intend to draw a salary this year, or are bonuses only one-way?

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:45 pm

spot;1397685 wrote: RBS chief executive Stephen Hester has apologised for technical problems which left customers of the group's banks unable to pay bills or access money. He said: "Our customers rely on us day in and day out to get things right. On this occasion we have let them down."

BBC News - RBS chief apologises for NatWest banking problems

Thank you, Mr Hester.

Do you intend to draw a salary this year, or are bonuses only one-way?

I'd be Interested to know why you believe he should go without a salary or even his bonus.

The article states:

"The problem began on Thursday and is believed to have arisen after staff tried to install a software update on RBS's payment processing system, but ended up corrupting it."

After staff tried to Install software... staff... not him personally. Unless he trained the staff and created the software for updating, he alone Is not responsible. The blame surely must lie with the software creators or the staff who trained the staff to Install It.

Post by **spot** » Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:02 pm

NatWest/RBS have notoriously squeezed and reduced their IT people until the pips have finally squeaked.

RBS has cut back on permanent IT staff in the past few years: trimming 1,000 people in 2010 alone. In the effort to keep "frontline staff" available, the tech department was one area where the axe fell when the banking group was slashing the headcount.

Natwest, RBS: When will bank glitch be fixed? Probably not today

That's not an IT problem, that's a Board problem. The present IT situation is a direct predictable consequence.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:23 pm

spot;1397687 wrote: NatWest/RBS have notoriously squeezed and reduced their IT people until the pips have finally squeaked.

RBS has cut back on permanent IT staff in the past few years: trimming 1,000 people in 2010 alone. In the effort to keep "frontline staff" available, the tech department was one area where the axe fell when the banking group was slashing the headcount.

Natwest, RBS: When will bank glitch be fixed? Probably not today

That's not an IT problem, that's a Board problem. The present IT situation is a direct predictable consequence.

It's no doubt what led to the glitch but are we sure Mr Hester Is solely responsible for the axing of IT staff? Wouldn't that have been a board decision?

Post by **Betty Boop** » Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:56 am

oscar;1397688 wrote: It's no doubt what led to the glitch but are we sure Mr Hester Is solely responsible for the axing of IT staff? Wouldn't that have been a board decision?

spot;1397687 wrote:

That's not an IT problem, that's a Board problem. The present IT situation is a direct predictable consequence.

That's what he said. So who is responsible for the board? Someone has to be.

Bro's not had his wages paid yet and he was in need of them. I wouldn't want to be a front line employee, can you imagine the grief those poor people are getting.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sun Jun 24, 2012 6:01 am

oscar;1397688 wrote: It's no doubt what led to the glitch but are we sure Mr Hester Is solely responsible for the axing of IT staff? Wouldn't that have been a board decision?

He runs the company and happily takes the credit and the bonuses when things go well. It wasn't me just doesn't hack it. The board does not sit down each day and minutely manage each detail of running the company most of them just turn up for the cheques.

Post by **spot** » Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:12 am

oscar;1397688 wrote: It's no doubt what led to the glitch but are we sure Mr Hester Is solely responsible for the axing of IT staff? Wouldn't that have been a board decision?

And who, out of interest, do you think chairs the Board?

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:32 am

spot;1397713 wrote: And who, out of interest, do you think chairs the Board?

The jani:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl

Post by **spot** » Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:37 am

There is, traditionally, a company position at which the buck stops. If it's a big enough buck it triggers some sort of reaction. The position is Chief Executive and this is a big enough buck.

Post by **spot** » Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:23 am

Oh... and this tosh about it started on Thursday. Did it hell. Customers were complaining from Monday and no company puts those software changes in mid-week, they went in last weekend. The database, if it's still screwed anywhere and I bet it is, has been that way for seven calendar days now.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:31 pm

gmc;1397710 wrote: He runs the company and happily takes the credit and the bonuses when things go well. It wasn't me just doesn't hack it. The board does not sit down each day and minutely manage each detail of running the company most of them just turn up for the cheques.

Fair enough.

I was just exploring the possibility that as In many of these cases, there would be a scapegoat.

My own family have suffered because of this. Two of them nurses who never got their monthly pay so I am very aware of what hardship folk have suffered but I just haven't had much time this week to bone up on the In's and out's.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:04 am

My IT guru on the hill, before whom I genuflect*, says the database is recoverable but what's probably taking the time is working through the backlog that piled up. More than a complete week of transactions before they get to today's. Poor staff didn't get a weekend and they will tire and start making errors as well. Seems to me this will ripple on for weeks or months. Court cases arising no doubt for years...

* imagine Sergei the meerkat. Also collects routers.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:27 am

Clodhopper;1397747 wrote: My IT guru on the hill, before whom I genuflect*, says the database is recoverable but what's probably taking the time is working through the backlog that piled up. More than a complete week of transactions before they get to today's. Poor staff didn't get a weekend and they will tire and start making errors as well. Seems to me this will ripple on for weeks or months. Court cases arising no doubt for years...

* imagine Sergei the meerkat. Also collects routers. I think you're right. My sister and niece won't be filing any court case.... like all the others I'm sure, they'll just be relieved to get their wages.

Post by **spot** » Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:29 am

It's all very well NatWest/RBS saying they'll pay costs incurred but there are two massive holes in that. Firstly, people will have a potentially damaged credit rating if they've had outgoing payments bounced on other banks or credit card companies. Secondly there's an unquantifiable reputational loss for anyone making late payments to creditors which could have major financial implications to a customer, and I bet NatWest/RBS have no intention whatever of making so much as a token payment to take note of that.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:59 am

spot;1397765 wrote: It's all very well NatWest/RBS saying they'll pay costs incurred but there are two massive holes in that. Firstly, people will have a potentially damaged credit rating if they've had outgoing payments bounced on other banks or credit card companies. Secondly there's an unquantifiable reputational loss for anyone making late payments to creditors which could have major financial implications to a customer, and I bet NatWest/RBS have no intention whatever of making so much as a token payment to take note of that.

Exactly !!! Yes, they can pay compo but how do they fix a previously unblemished credit rating?

You know what ? I think your earlier post In the circumstances was the better Idea. A mass exodus. I can recommend Santander.

Post by **spot** » Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:26 am

There's no compensation payments being made, the bank already announced that bit.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:20 pm

I've just watched Stephen Hester on the news and It's almost like he has a ' Am I bovverred' type face. No apologies, no reassurance for customers, no advice, and no actual talk of how much longer It will go on for.

He started waffling about the chaos being akin to Heathrow Airport when planes get backed up.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:36 pm

spot;1397765 wrote: It's all very well NatWest/RBS saying they'll pay costs incurred but there are two massive holes in that. Firstly, people will have a potentially damaged credit rating if they've had outgoing payments bounced on other banks or credit card companies. Secondly there's an unquantifiable reputational loss for anyone making late payments to creditors which could have major financial implications to a customer, and I bet NatWest/RBS have no intention whatever of making so much as a token payment to take note of that.

You old fashioned thing you.

How can a missed payment, rectified soonest, affect anyone's credit rating ?

What is 'reputational loss' when it's at home ?

Looking down the personal list of financial transactions with any particular business, a single blip in late June 2012 will be disregarded, as are most one off irregularities.

Post by **spot** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:08 am

Bruv;1397803 wrote: How can a missed payment, rectified soonest, affect anyone's credit rating ?

What is 'reputational loss' when it's at home ?
I'm not talking about people with clean credit histories where one missed payment can be shrugged off, I'm talking about those on the edge where one more missed payment pushed the record over the edge. Between clean and collapsed there's a band where it matters greatly. That's where no rectification can be effective and no, they wouldn't all have gone over eventually had it not happened. Experian have a page up about rectifying the record but for some people it'll be far too late by then.

As for reputational damage,Jo is the account manager for a small business and cannot make any payments to suppliers or staff.I am amazed at the impact that this is having on business. I am the accounts manager for a small business and I am struggling to figure out the best course of action.

I can't do any credit controlling today as I don't know who has paid us electronically. I can't make any payments to our suppliers or staff because Natwest won't release payments because they can't confirm balances.

It also doesn't help that this has happened at a time when we are all having to leave things to the last minute to pay because cash-flow is so tight.

There are some people I should have paid and promised payment to on Wednesday. Not being able to honour those promises will have an impact on their cash-flow too. BBC News - RBS-NatWest problems: Customer experiences

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:49 am

OK Fair enough.

My wages are due to be paid in 28th and I am awaiting two other payments, so I am becoming more concerned.

flopstock · Post by **flopstock** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:29 am

you don't suppose they tried to install the new forum software do you?

Post by **spot** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:36 am

flopstock;1397826 wrote: you don't suppose they tried to install the new forum software do you?

Worse yet, they write their own.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 2:44 am

Tony Robinson, my favourite republican, on bankers:

BBC News - Tony Robinson asks if bankers are human

The angers seeps through beautifully in the last couple of lines. He certainly speaks for me.

Post by **spot** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 3:16 am

What a good chap he is.

Bristol needs an executive mayor later this year, Mr Robinson.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 3:28 am

Your starter for ten, who are the politicians who removed the shackles of regulation from the banks so they would be free to generate wealth for the country?

Don't worry though cameron is going after the welfare scroungers and single ,mothers who have caused all the problems.

Socialist Appeal - Brown and

New Labour is the bastard child of Thatcherism. Blair, Brown and Mandelson inherited from the evil witch the belief that the market (capitalism) was god and that the rich are the wealth creators we must all bow down to.

There's something wrong when an article in a marxist paper seems less rabid and more rational than those in the mainstream press.

There was an article suggesting that the sofrware upgrade was carried out in an IT centre in India to where RBS have outsourced a lot of work, meanwhile 36,000 bank staff have been let go.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:02 am

There was an article suggesting that the sofrware upgrade was carried out in an IT centre in India to where RBS have outsourced a lot of work, meanwhile 36,000 bank staff have been let go.

I heard that too.

Agius has gone from Barclays, Diamond stays (I have the impression he's post the real muck, but no doubt tainted by the culture) and Varley is the one hugging his ill-gotten gains.

All just scratching the surface though.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:09 am

gmc;1398080 wrote: Your starter for ten, who are the politicians who removed the shackles of regulation from the banks so they would be free to generate wealth for the country?

. Are you slighting His Wonderfulness here?

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:18 am

Clodhopper;1398175 wrote: I heard that too.

Agius has gone from Barclays, Diamond stays (I have the impression he's post the real muck, but no doubt tainted by the culture) and Varley is the one hugging his ill-gotten gains.

All just scratching the surface though.

I find it hard to credit that no one will face criminal charges over this - it's fraud. More to the point the culture in the company must have been such that they knew they would get away with it.

Post by **spot** » Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:31 pm

I do hope this Hester chap has solid ground under his claim that 'there was “no evidence” that outsourcing had caused the problems', because the news team at The Register is pretty adamant he's lying. The IT cost-cutting which made UK staff redundant while pushing functions out to India either led up to this fiasco or it didn't, and the move was overseen by Hester as CEO as far as I can make out. Am I mistaken? Did outsourcing happen under his watch or not, and was the mistake perpetrated by an outsourced operator, those are the key questions.

RBS computer failure 'caused by inexperienced operative in India' - Telegraph

Post by **spot** » Sat Jul 04, 2015 2:15 am

I note Santander's accounts login is unavailable this morning.

Post by **spot** » Sat Jul 04, 2015 2:19 am

spot;1481898 wrote: I note Santander's accounts login is unavailable this morning.

A brief glitch, it's back.

But it was gone. And it's not meant to do that.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Sat Jul 04, 2015 2:23 am

Thankfully it was working on Thursday. Jubbly's new owner paid by Internet Banking, and his account was with Santander.

Post by **spot** » Sat Jul 04, 2015 6:58 am

Have you seen their "please install this IBM program" online banking pop-up?

I've just written to them about it:You have asked me to install Trusteer Rapport. The terms and conditions require me to "authorize personnel of IBM, as Your Sponsoring Enterprise's data processor, to use the Program remotely to collect any files or other information from your computer that IBM security experts suspect may be related to malware or other malicious activity, or that may be associated with general Program malfunction".

I consider my files to be private. I am not prepared to allow authorized offsite personnel of IBM access to my personal files, least of all "any" files. You intend transferring my private files to servers of a US company, to servers located in the USA, where those files will become subject to a US jurisdiction.

Could you please explain to me why Santander would like me to authorize IBM employees to copy my private files off my computer? I'm not accusing you or IBM of reading them, I'm asking why you want me to authorize them to take these copies. Why should I give such permission? How can permission to copy my private files help Santander provide me, personally, with more secure online banking?

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:22 am

Me ?...........I just tick the No Thank you Box and move on.

Post by **spot** » Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:23 am

I'd rather see whether I get an on-topic reply. The T&C section is an utter outrage.

Post by **spot** » Mon Jul 06, 2015 1:49 am

spot;1481926 wrote: Have you seen their "please install this IBM program" online banking pop-up?

I've just written to them about it:You have asked me to install Trusteer Rapport. The terms and conditions require me to "authorize personnel of IBM, as Your Sponsoring Enterprise's data processor, to use the Program remotely to collect any files or other information from your computer that IBM security experts suspect may be related to malware or other malicious activity, or that may be associated with general Program malfunction".

I consider my files to be private. I am not prepared to allow authorized offsite personnel of IBM access to my personal files, least of all "any" files. You intend transferring my private files to servers of a US company, to servers located in the USA, where those files will become subject to a US jurisdiction.

Could you please explain to me why Santander would like me to authorize IBM employees to copy my private files off my computer? I'm not accusing you or IBM of reading them, I'm asking why you want me to authorize them to take these copies. Why should I give such permission? How can permission to copy my private files help Santander provide me, personally, with more secure online banking?

Correspondence...

Date: 06/07/2015

Subject: Online Banking queries and help with the website

Message: Good morning Mr Harris,

Thank you for your email.

I can confirm Santander along with many other banks recommend Trusteer Rapport as an additional software to help guard you against internet banking identify theft and fraud.

Please note Santander will not divulge any information to any external companies, software companies ask to be provided with copies of files that the software has found as suspicious. This is to allow them to validate the authenticity of the files and if they are malicious update the software to recognise these in the future.

If you are unhappy with the Terms and conditions of Trusteer Rapport, Santander do not require you to have this software, please do not use this if you are uncomfortable with this policy.

Please note that Trusteer is produced by IBM and Santander have no influence on any of the processes they have in place.

I apologise for any inconvenience this issue has caused.

If I can be of any further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact me or alternatively you can speak to one of my colleagues by calling 0800 9 123 123. Lines are open Monday to Saturday 7am to 11pm & Sunday 8am to 10pm.

Kind regards,

Ben

Santander Customer Services

Thank you Ben,

May I make three points?

Firstly, while "Santander will not divulge any information to any external companies" you must be aware that IBM is obliged by US law to disclose the content of my harvested files to an array US law enforcement agencies in various circumstances. Given those circumstances I do not believe Santander should recommend this product to its customers.

Secondly, "Santander have no influence on any of the processes they have in place" but you could pass on the fact that a complaint, or complaints, have been noted from your customers about the nature of the software.

Thirdly, I am unhappy that you are offering a product which is incapable of running on my PC, which uses FreeBSD as its operating system. I think BSD users should not be discriminated against in this way just because we're a minority.

Kind regards,

John.