Aggressive tax avoidance is morally wrong?

Post by **spot** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:34 pm

In an interview with ITV News, the prime minister was asked about Carr's arrangement. He replied: "Some of these schemes we have seen are quite frankly morally wrong. People work hard, they pay their taxes, they save up to go to one of his shows. They buy the tickets. He is taking the money from those tickets and he, as far as I can see, is putting all of that into some very dodgy tax avoiding schemes."

BBC News - Jimmy Carr tax affairs 'morally wrong' - Cameron

You utterly disgusting little oik, Cameron. You run a government policy which actively results in the death and injury, time after time after time, of non-combatant civilians in Afghanistan, and you have the nerve to criticize a comedian for using legal accounting practices to minimise his personal tax burden on the basis that it's "morally wrong"?

I don't think you'd know a moral if it bit your backside, your self-centred upbringing precludes your having developed the capacity.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:53 pm

Bloody Heck

I agree with Spot

Wandrin · Post by **Wandrin** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:13 pm

Your politicians pontificate about morals too? How cute! It seems that "do as I say - not as I do" is the universal language of politicians.

theia · Post by **theia** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:18 pm

I don't think either Cameron or Carr come out of this looking good.

Post by **spot** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:19 pm

We have an entire profession here of Chartered Tax Advisers, admittedly a small rarefied and cloistered group of mendicants, who design and administer these "morally wrong" schemes. I'm delighted to say one of my sons is a practitioner and his elder sister married another. They may not be saints but at least they're not bloody Conservatives. Or stand-up comedians, come to that.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:29 pm

Well................I agree with Cameron....and surprisingly I agree with Carr.

How do we get out of this dilemma ?

Post by **spot** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:34 pm

Make it illegal to take home more than twice the national average wage or syphon other money to your private use, of course.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:37 pm

spot;1397145 wrote: Make it illegal to take home more than twice the national average wage or syphon other money to your private use, of course.

No that's not it, try something else.

In fact that is ridiculous worse than the 'problem'

Post by **spot** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:40 pm

Don't look at me, I was quoting my lad. His political position roughly coincides with that of Fidel Castro.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:45 pm

spot;1397148 wrote: Don't look at me, I was quoting my lad. His political position roughly coincides with that of Fidel Castro.

Bugger me, it's a family thing, all these weird ideas......he does you proud.

I would bung up the loopholes and make any loophole discovered later to be retrospectively acted on......that should sort it out.

Post by **spot** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:48 pm

Retroactive law is a legal and moral anathema. Bernard Levin said so.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:51 pm

Another dead hero ?

Aggressive tax avoidance is a legal and moral anathema (what ever that is)

You have to make choices what is more anathemic (?)

theia · Post by **theia** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:53 pm

Bruv;1397144 wrote: Well................I agree with Cameron....and surprisingly I agree with Carr.

How do we get out of this dilemma ?

Bring back integrity?

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:57 pm

Can we establish ?

Has Jimmy Carr or his accountant In any way acted Illegally and broken any laws?

Post by **spot** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:57 pm

Bruv;1397153 wrote: Another dead hero ?

Aggressive tax avoidance is a legal and moral anathema (what ever that is)

You have to make choices what is more anathemic (?)
Regardless of the apparent tedium, read Retroactive law | Adam Smith Institute and tell me why you're right.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:03 pm

spot;1397158 wrote: Regardless of the apparent tedium, read Retroactive law | Adam Smith Institute and tell me why you're right.

I don't want people hung for crimes that haven't been invented yet, I want any Tax avoidance scheme outlawed, a simple law, that catches all.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:07 pm

oscar;1397157 wrote: Can we establish ?

Has Jimmy Carr or his accountant In any way acted Illegally and broken any laws?
More than 1,000 people, including Carr, are thought to be using the Jersey-based K2 scheme, which is said to be sheltering £168m a year from the Treasury.

Under the scheme, an individual resigns from their company and any salary they subsequently receive is paid to an offshore trust.

The individual then receives a small amount of that as salary and the rest as a loan, which because it can technically be recalled, does not attract tax.

According to the Times, the K2 scheme allows someone on an income of £280,000 to reduce their tax bill from £127,000 to just £3,500.

His lawyers have insisted he has done nothing wrong, but the Treasury has said K2 is already being investigated.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:13 pm

Bruv;1397162 wrote: More than 1,000 people, including Carr, are thought to be using the Jersey-based K2 scheme, which is said to be sheltering £168m a year from the Treasury.

Under the scheme, an individual resigns from their company and any salary they subsequently receive is paid to an offshore trust.

The individual then receives a small amount of that as salary and the rest as a loan, which because it can technically be recalled, does not attract tax.

According to the Times, the K2 scheme allows someone on an income of £280,000 to reduce their tax bill from £127,000 to just £3,500.

His lawyers have insisted he has done nothing wrong, but the Treasury has said K2 is already being investigated.

Fair enough.

Cameron's really set himself up now hasn't he? Every national newspaper Is going to be scrutinising every member of his cabinet now and probably all of his family.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:22 pm

If you work in Tescos your tax is taken before you see it.

If you run a multinational corporation, or a national company, or any company, you pay tax on what you say you earned last year, less anything you can claim for.

Some companies spend more than a decent amount of money avoiding paying tax, some companies business is saving other companies paying tax, some companies pay less tax than the cashier in Tescos......allegedly

Post by **spot** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:03 pm

Bruv;1397160 wrote: I don't want people hung for crimes that haven't been invented yet, I want any Tax avoidance scheme outlawed, a simple law, that catches all.

The article was about tax, not about hanging people.

theia · Post by **theia** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:01 am

Bruv;1397162 wrote: More than 1,000 people, including Carr, are thought to be using the Jersey-based K2 scheme, which is said to be sheltering £168m a year from the Treasury.

Under the scheme, an individual resigns from their company and any salary they subsequently receive is paid to an offshore trust.

The individual then receives a small amount of that as salary and the rest as a loan, which because it can technically be recalled, does not attract tax.

According to the Times, the K2 scheme allows someone on an income of £280,000 to reduce their tax bill from £127,000 to just £3,500.

His lawyers have insisted he has done nothing wrong, but the Treasury has said K2 is already being investigated.

I just heard a similar explanation on BBC news. Okay, so it was laughable for Cameron to call it "morally wrong" but I don't think it's laughable for those of us on £7.70 per hour and less (and paying tax) to do so.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:21 am

Carr is nicking money he knows should be paying for services we want. In my view his accountants are thieves and he's an accessory. Or the other way round, take your pick.

I'm afraid I don't have much time for people who make a career out of stealing more money for the rich, which is what tax evasion schemes are. Those accountants who are helping small businesses, on the other hand, often do a fine job.

Post by **Betty Boop** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:07 am

There's an update this morning

BBC News - Comedian Jimmy Carr: I've made terrible error over tax why Jimmy Carr over all the other people doing the exact same thing? There are a 1,000 people that need to be named seeing as Jimmy was singled out. And when do we get to see Cameron's and other politicians tax returns? Bet some of them are busy tidying up their affairs before the nation demands to see :wah:

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:37 am

Everyone tries to maximise their Tax allowance, claiming for each and everything they can to offset against tax, that is acceptable.

Small businesses can use a vehicle for business and pleasure yet be scrutinised for the additional pleasure use.

Things such as shared telephone rental, clothing etc. can be lumped together as allowable for tax purposes.

It crosses a line where income is shuffled around different countries, 'invested' and 'loaned' back to the person earning it, I am sure some employers would offer such a scheme to their workers if it was the right side of the law, and not just this side of iffy.

Carr has had some feedback from disgruntled punters, and modified his affairs......apparently,to protect future earnings, I believe cynically.

Post by **spot** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:47 am

I stopped doing things the Revenue fashion the day I got a £50,000 penalty assessment from them out of the blue with a demand for payment within four weeks. Their offices are staffed by berserk button-pushers who blindly pick out names from lists, they are a source of chaos. Some things are just not worth the money, and dealing with a tax office is one of them. I'd not be surprised if people have died from the stress they induce.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:56 am

spot;1397202 wrote: I stopped doing things the Revenue fashion the day I got a £50,000 penalty assessment from them out of the blue with a demand for payment within four weeks.
Did it get the required attention ?

And it was all resolved amicably ?

Yes ?

I thought s.........it is merely a method of gaining your undivided attention....it works.

Their offices are staffed by berserk button-pushers who blindly pick out names from lists, they are a source of chaos. Some things are just not worth the money, and dealing with a tax office is one of them. I'd not be surprised if people have died from the stress they induce.
Just people doing a difficult job.

You have a 'thing' about authority figures don't you ?

Post by **spot** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:08 am

Bruv;1397205 wrote: You have a 'thing' about authority figures don't you ?I don't think I've been particularly sane since the day that happened.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:26 am

spot;1397207 wrote: I don't think I've been particularly sane since the day that happened.

So it's all down to the poor old Tax collector......Freud would have a field day with you.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:51 am

Cameron is having a laff !!!!

David Cameron's father ran a network of offshore investment funds to help build the family fortune that paid for the prime minister's inheritance

Post by **spot** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:36 am

Bruv;1397212 wrote: So it's all down to the poor old Tax collector......Freud would have a field day with you.Quite possibly so but that was a quarter of a century ago and it split my life into what I did before I got that letter and what I've done since, I can't go back and change any of it. Nor, on balance, would I want to, what I've done since has a lot going for it. It just doesn't involve being on Schedule D.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:25 am

His lawyers have insisted he has done nothing wrong, but the Treasury has said K2 is already being investigated.

That is exactly the same justification MP's used when they were caught fiddling their expenses.

I think it morally wrong that as taxpayer I am being asked to bail out privately owned financial institutions that were stupid enough to lend money to countries and people who did not have the income to support the debt.

Post by **spot** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:53 am

Anyone wondering how to cause injury with a well-turned sentence should take lessons from Angela Eagle...Shadow commons leader Angela Eagle said: "The prime minister rushed to the TV studios to condemn the tax avoidance scheme used by Jimmy Carr but he did not take the opportunity to condemn as morally repugnant the tax avoidance scheme used by Conservative supporter Gary Barlow, who's given a whole new meaning to the phrase 'Take That'. If it's all so morally repugnant, why has he just been given an OBE in the birthday honours list?"

BBC News - Cameron ducks Gary Barlow tax avoidance question

I hope Mr Plastic winced over the despatch box.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:10 am

spot;1397249 wrote: Anyone wondering how to cause injury with a well-turned sentence should take lessons from Angela Eagle...Shadow commons leader Angela Eagle said: "The prime minister rushed to the TV studios to condemn the tax avoidance scheme used by Jimmy Carr but he did not take the opportunity to condemn as morally repugnant the tax avoidance scheme used by Conservative supporter Gary Barlow, who's given a whole new meaning to the phrase 'Take That'. If it's all so morally repugnant, why has he just been given an OBE in the birthday honours list?"

BBC News - Cameron ducks Gary Barlow tax avoidance question

I hope Mr Plastic winced over the despatch box.

No such chance

BBC News - Cameron ducks Gary Barlow tax avoidance question

Mr Cameron said he was not going to give a "running commentary" on people's tax affairs - but he had made an exception for comedian Jimmy Carr because "it was a particularly egregious example of an avoidance scheme that seemed to me to be wrong".

Jimmy carr had the temerity to take the piss out of the banks. Hypocrites cannot recognise the hypocrisy in themselves.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:44 am

I'm slightly more Irked at who described Jimmy Carr as a ' Comedian '