The vast majority of our troops? Deference??

Post by **spot** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:11 pm

What planet does George Little live on? This is sheer lunacy.WASHINGTON, June 20, 2012 - The investigation into allegations that U.S. service members improperly destroyed religious material in Afghanistan in February is now with the military services for disposition, Pentagon Press Secretary George Little said today.

[...] Following a review of the Joint Force Staff College, ordered by Army Gen. Martin E. Dempsey, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Little said there is not a larger issue of American troops targeting or showing disrespect toward Islam.

"I would be very hesitant to suggest that this, in any way, points to a broader trend inside the U.S. military," he said. "The vast majority of our troops have profound respect for Islam. Millions of U.S. troops have been deployed to places like Afghanistan and Iraq."

Little stated "the United States military is at war with our terrorist and insurgent enemies" and -- not with any particular religion. And that is something that the vast majority of U.S. troops understand," he said. "They comport themselves in a way, a vast majority of the time, that shows that proper cultural respect and deference."

Defense.gov News Article: Services to Decide Possible Discipline in Quran Burning Incident

I'd call George Little a professional liar, myself.

Wandrin · Post by **Wandrin** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:50 pm

Doesn't the job title "press secretary" mean professional liar?

Post by **spot** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:55 pm

You pay the bugger's salary, do something about it.

"The vast majority of our troops have profound respect for Islam"? He actually said that?

To suggest the vast majority of U.S. troops defer to Muslims makes me think George Little is taking a knowing piss on the entire press corps. Far from any sort of majority of U.S. troops defering to Muslims or having a profound respect for Islam, vast or otherwise, I reckon most regard Islam as a misguided lie planted by Satan to draw its benighted adherents away from the Light of Christ into eternal damnation. Because - wait for the sucker punch - they're most of them card-carrying Christians, and the eternal damnation for Muslims bit is middle of the road conventional Christian orthodoxy.

Enough, already?

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:33 pm

Link showing "they're most of them card-carrying Christians."

Post by **spot** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:37 pm

SnoozeAgain;1397178 wrote: Link showing "they're most of them card-carrying Christians."

"81% of Americans identify with a Christian faith" - a widespread Gallup poll[1], not one cherry-picked. Are you going to tell me the US Armed Forces are so wildly different from US public opinion that most of them come from the 19% who don't self-identify as Christian? It seems improbable. "Card-carrying" was intended to bring the impossible claims of the 1930s Soviet show trials to mind where you only believed if you were a party member, it implies a delusional mental state.

Let me turn it about a bit - do you think it's remotely credible that the vast majority of U.S. troops defer to Muslims or have profound respect for Islam? And if not, why is George Little claiming it to be true?

eta:[1] - by last Christmas the figure's dropped to 78% which leaves 22% for "most of the Armed Forces" to be drawn from, if you're right that I'm wrong. I still think it wildly improbable that the US Armed Forces are predominantly non-Christian. Think of those who've posted on FG if nothing else, they couldn't even bring themselves to spell Muslim politely.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:54 am

???Where does respecting Islam mean you must defer to Muslims????

I might respect Christianity, but that doesn't mean I defer to Christians!

Post by **spot** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:53 am

Don't tell I, tell 'ee.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:57 am

Run out of porn again, spot?

Post by **spot** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:11 am

Accountable;1397206 wrote: Run out of porn again, spot?

Just showing what's out there, Acc. The guy's office emailed it to me, and I posted it on.

Do the vast majority of US troops have profound respect for Islam, in your opinion?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:58 am

I wouldn't expect the vast majority of any group's male segment to respect any religion whose women don't show cleavage.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:24 am

spot;1397208 wrote: Just showing what's out there, Acc. The guy's office emailed it to me, and I posted it on.

Do the vast majority of US troops have profound respect for Islam, in your opinion?
"They comport themselves in a way, a vast majority of the time, that shows that proper cultural respect and deference."

Post by **spot** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:30 am

Accountable;1397218 wrote: "They comport themselves in a way, a vast majority of the time, that shows that proper cultural respect and deference."

I'm delighted to hear it. Earlier on in the passage you quote from, George Little said "The vast majority of our troops have profound respect for Islam". Do the vast majority of US troops have profound respect for Islam, in your opinion?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:20 am

spot;1397220 wrote: I'm delighted to hear it. Earlier on in the passage you quote from, George Little said "The vast majority of our troops have profound respect for Islam". Do the vast majority of US troops have profound respect for Islam, in your opinion?
I don't know the thoughts of our troops. How do you propose that I find such information?

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:33 am

Accountable;1397225 wrote: I don't know the thoughts of our troops. How do you propose that I find such information?

Enjoy the match ACC. I had a similar match with him yesterday.

Post by **spot** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:36 am

Accountable;1397225 wrote: I don't know the thoughts of our troops. How do you propose that I find such information?

Your problem is a refusal on your part to face reality. I'm sure George Little knows the reality but he's happy to be an out-and-out liar. You know perfectly well that the vast majority of US troops have no respect for Islam is the slightest, and so does everyone else. What puzzles me is why George Little should stand there and put on record such a vacuous lie in front of a hundred people all of whom know full well they're being lied to. The Party Line is alive and well, it just doesn't live in Moscow any longer.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:49 am

Ahso!;1397215 wrote: I wouldn't expect the vast majority of any group's male segment to respect any religion whose women don't show cleavage.
Tiresome dimwit. These women, some of them, must stumble about because they can't show face. It's real hot out but can't show ankle or wrist. One step at a time.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:07 am

spot;1397228 wrote: Your problem My problem?? It seems that you're the one with the problem.

spot;1397228 wrote: is a refusal on your part to face reality. Proof please.

spot;1397228 wrote: I'm sure George Little knows the reality but he's happy to be an out-and-out liar. Proof please.

spot;1397228 wrote: You know perfectly well that the vast majority of US troops have no respect for Islam is the slightest, You presume not only to know what I know, but the thoughts and emotions of US troops as well? What percentage would be the "vast majority"?

spot;1397228 wrote: and so does everyone else. Such a clairvoyant! Do you do tea leaves as well?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:31 am

AnneBoleyn;1397257 wrote: Tiresome dimwit. These women, some of them, must stumble about because they can't show face. It's real hot out but can't show ankle or wrist. One step at a time.Tell me, Anne, how did you interpret my post?

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:32 am

YZGI;1397227 wrote: Enjoy the match ACC. I had a similar match with him yesterday.

There's a ball joke in there somewhere.

Post by **spot** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:52 am

Accountable;1397261 wrote: Such a clairvoyant! Do you do tea leaves as well?We've created the thread, it's there for people to read. Whether they think George Little was toeing a party line despite the blatancy of his lies or not is up to them. I can't imagine many people thinking what he said was remotely true, not even slightly laced with truth. That's what these threads are for. What they'll make of your back-to-the-wall unbelievable defence of the chap is up to them. But do ask yourself, privately, why you felt the need to join in with the lying.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:00 pm

spot;1397271 wrote: We've created the thread, it's there for people to read. Whether they think George Little was toeing a party line despite the blatancy of his lies or not is up to them. I can't imagine many people thinking what he said was remotely true, not even slightly laced with truth. That's what these threads are for. What they'll make of your back-to-the-wall unbelievable defence of the chap is up to them. But do ask yourself, privately, why you felt the need to join in with the lying.

Be careful when you accuse someone of lying, snot. Quote the post!

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:17 pm

Unacceptable behavior.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:19 pm

SnoozeAgain;1397292 wrote: Unacceptable behavior.

The tone of the entire thread appears to be bait.

Post by **spot** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:59 pm

For the absence of doubt, I say that if Accountable claims to believe, as George Little unequivocally states, that the vast majority of US troops have profound respect for Islam then he's a liar. I don't for one moment believe he's capable of holding this particular utterly false opinion.

If Accountable would like to say that he holds no such belief I'll be glad to apologize for mistakenly saying he has joined in with the Pentagon Press Secretary's lying, but not otherwise. So far, all his weasel-wording has been with the intention of avoiding such a statement while implying it might be. The prevarication is entirely his. Rubbish "prove it" comments, where no such polling could possibly have taken place to provide evidence, do nothing to clear the matter up. On the other hand I've provided perfectly sound reasoning to demonstrate the practical impossibility of George Little's claim.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:15 pm

spot;1397392 wrote: For the absence of doubt, I say that if Accountable claims to believe, as George Little unequivocally states, that the vast majority of US troops have profound respect for Islam then he's a liar. I don't for one moment believe he's capable of holding this particular utterly false opinion.I never said I did. That was your bigotry inferring that.

spot;1397392 wrote: If Accountable would like to say that he holds no such belief I'll be glad to apologize for mistakenly saying he has joined in with the Pentagon Press Secretary's lying, but not otherwise.You have accused me of lying. QUOTE THE POST!

spot;1397392 wrote: So far, all his weasel-wording has been with the intention of avoiding such a statement while implying it might be.Untrue. Does that make you a liar? Shall I call you one now?

spot;1397392 wrote: The prevarication is entirely his.Wrongo, Bigot. Quote the post where you say I've lied. ... or are you a phucking coward as well?

spot;1397392 wrote: Rubbish "prove it" comments, where no such polling could possibly have taken place to provide evidence, do nothing to clear the matter up.Neither do your making claims that can't be proven. Where did that start? Oh yeh, WITH YOU!

spot;1397392 wrote: On the other hand I've provided perfectly sound reasoning to demonstrate the practical impossibility of George Little's claim.You've provided bupkis. Every inference you've made about me is in error. Post the lie you claim I've made, coward.

Post by **spot** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:19 pm

Accountable;1397395 wrote: You've provided bupkis. Every inference you've made about me is in error. Post the lie you claim I've made, coward.
"Do ask yourself, privately, why you felt the need to join in with the lying". That's what I wrote. It's what you've done. The lying is George Little's and you've joined in with it by implying I'm wrong and he's right.

Where does the "coward" come from, incidentally? With whom am I holding this discussion?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:21 pm

spot;1397397 wrote: "Do ask yourself, privately, why you felt the need to join in with the lying". That's what I wrote. It's what you've done. The lying is George Little's and you've joined in with it by implying I'm wrong and he's right.

Where does the "coward" come from, incidentally? With whom am I holding this discussion?

Go back and read again, coward. Post this quote you refer to.

Post by **spot** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:24 pm

"I don't know the thoughts of our troops" is a lie, you know damn well that to claim the vast majority of them have such a respect is untrue, they've demonstrated so continuously for the last decade. You know perfectly well that George Little lied.

Where does the "coward" come from, incidentally? With whom am I holding this discussion?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:29 pm

spot;1397399 wrote: "I don't know the thoughts of our troops" is a lie,How could I possibly know the thoughts of anyone but myself, you idiot? For someone who claims to be intelligent, you're not doing too well.

Post by **spot** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:31 pm

Accountable;1397400 wrote: How could I possibly know the thoughts of anyone but myself, you idiot? For someone who claims to be intelligent, you're not doing too well.

Listening to Jester froth at the mouth over Muslums might have given you a clue. I take it he's typical.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:33 pm

spot;1397401 wrote: Listening to Jester froth at the mouth over Muslums might have given you a clue. I take it he's typical.
But see, I'm no bigot. You are. I don't generalize about an entire population over a smidgen of anecdotal evidence. You do.

Post by **spot** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:38 pm

Accountable;1397402 wrote: But see, I'm no bigot. You are. I don't generalize about an entire population over a smidgen of anecdotal evidence. You do.

So how does that leave "the vast majority of US troops have profound respect for Islam", then? You know, as generalizing about an entire population. Where do you suppose George Little got his evidence to back his claim that you're supporting?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:41 pm

spot;1397403 wrote: So how does that leave "the vast majority of US troops have profound respect for Islam", then? You know, as generalizing about an entire population. Where do you suppose George Little got his evidence to back his claim that you're supporting?
I don't care where he got his evidence, if he has evidence, or if he writes fiction every time he submits a column. Your accusation was toward me, not him.

eta: It's the accusation toward me I'm talking about.

Post by **spot** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:43 pm

Accountable;1397404 wrote: I don't care where he got his evidence, if he has evidence, or if he writes fiction every time he submits a column. Your accusation was toward me, not him.

eta: It's the accusation toward me I'm talking about.
You, personally, should be intensely ashamed of upholding his position. Patriotism can go too far and in your case it obviously has.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:45 pm

spot;1397405 wrote: You, personally, should be intensely ashamed of upholding his position. Patriotism can go too far and in your case it obviously has.
I'm upholding one sentence. What was that sentence, bigot?

Post by **spot** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:47 pm

Accountable;1397406 wrote: I'm upholding one sentence. What was that sentence, bigot?

"Run out of porn again, spot?", perhaps?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:56 pm

spot;1397407 wrote: "Run out of porn again, spot?", perhaps?
Phucking coward. You're the one afraid to face reality. You're afraid to admit when you're wrong.

Accountable;1397218 wrote: "They comport themselves in a way, a vast majority of the time, that shows that proper cultural respect and deference."

This sentence, as you damn well know, is the one sentence I quoted from the article in the OP. It speaks nothing of the troops' thoughts, because their thoughts are irrelevant. Don't try to understand because it's well beyond you. The vast majority of soldiers behave as instructed. Having been there and seen it firsthand for over twenty years, I feel comfortable supporting that statement. It doesn't matter what one's thoughts are. Only their behavior is relevant.

Post by **spot** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:03 pm

So "The vast majority of our troops have profound respect for Islam" is a lie then?

That's a relief.

Where does the "coward" come from, incidentally? With whom am I holding this discussion?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:10 pm

spot;1397409 wrote: So "The vast majority of our troops have profound respect for Islam" is a lie then?I don't know if it is or not, neither do you, bigot.

spot;1397409 wrote: Where does the "coward" come from, incidentally?
You're a coward because you can't admit when you've made a mistake. You close your eyes and swing like a little boy, rather than apologize like an adult. You refused to indicate anything at all to support your false claim that I lied until I goaded you into it by pointing out that you're a coward. Most bigots I've come across are cowards.

Post by **spot** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:16 pm

Accountable;1397410 wrote: I don't know if it is or not, neither do you, bigot.
There we are then. Liar. Paint it on your forehead.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:19 pm

spot;1397411 wrote: There we are then. Liar. Paint it on your forehead.
You're pitiful and sad. You should stretch before making such leaps. You might throw out your back.

Post by **spot** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:20 pm

Accountable;1397412 wrote: You're pitiful and sad. You should stretch before making such leaps. You might throw out your back.

At least I don't go in for throwing insults the way you do.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:27 pm

spot;1397413 wrote: At least I don't go in for throwing insults the way you do.
My insults aren't baseless ... well except for calling you an SOB. I don't know your mother. I apologize for that.

The rest you've proven this very night.

You, however, owe me an apology. In your bigotry, you've made generalizations based on your own prejudice that you yourself admit can't be proven, and since I choose not to state prejudice as fact, you call me a liar.

Apologize, bigot. Prove me wrong and show that you're an adult.

Post by **spot** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:43 pm

Accountable;1397414 wrote: You, however, owe me an apology. In your bigotry, you've made generalizations based on your own prejudice that you yourself admit can't be proven
No I don't. I've spent years patiently having you throw asinine names and insults at me, backing down is a long way off my list of desired outcomes here.

You're quite correct when you say of any individual that you can't know his mind. That's not at issue here. What you have is a vanishingly small statistical likelihood of error because you're dealing with several million members of your armed forces about which certain facts are known to be true. Each member, individually, may in the privacy of his own mind buck the statistical trend but in bulk they're incapable. Statements made about the mindset of the armed forces as a whole get past your "can't see what they're thinking" clause.

The known facts are that the majority in your armed forces have been brought up Christian and self-identify as Christian. This is a quote from a slightly froth-lipped (very recently) retired Chaplain, Lieutenant Colonel David Druckenmiller, "just retired from military after serving almost 34 years. The last 21+ years I served with honor as an Army Chaplain."In fact the largest demographic of religious faith in the military and in the American civilian world is Christianity based upon Evangelical Faith. Baptist alone, when all Baptist groups come together, is the largest by far. Our Catholic brothers and sisters of Christian faith normally make up about 20+% of any given military community. Baptists are normally above 50+% and other Evangelical Christians such as Pentecostal and some Protestant denominations raise the average Christian population by name to over 80%.

For the last seven years there's been a heavy drive by the military to prevent proselyting or evangelising while on duty, to try to pretend the armed forces are in fact as well as in theory a religion-neutral zone. That doesn't stop this 80% of Christians from continually believing though. What is the nature of their belief? Start with fundamental tenet number one - Christianity through the Name of Jesus is the sole means of access to God and Salvation, with the corollary that Islam is the work of Satan and all his little imps. It may not be the official message of the US Armed Forces, and propagandists like George Little may try hard to pretend that it's not so when members of the military are on government time, but it's what most of the members have been brought up by mom and pop to think is true and by gosh the entire notion is American as apple pie. Cutting it out of the mindset of a large chunk of the US military simply hasn't happened.

What was it George Little said? The vast majority of US troops have profound respect for Islam? It may be what they're told to have, though "profound" is egging the cake, but it's just not true that they have it. A vast majority by its nature has to include a large proportion of evangelical Christians and they're quite simply not allowed by their conscience to have respect for Islam, profound or otherwise. Individually this one or that might, you never can tell. In bulk they quite certainly don't. That's the nature of large-scale probability.

George Little rolling out the party line is playing a game - let's all say this is true and it becomes the only truth. The glorious progress of the Soviet collectives worked on the same principle. Either George Little is a self-deluded fool, which seems unlikely, or he's a liar. The same goes for anyone defending his statement - or, in your case, saying you don't know whether he lied or not. You know perfectly well that he did.

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:25 am

spot;1397401 wrote: Listening to Jester froth at the mouth over Muslums might have given you a clue. I take it he's typical.

You take it wrong. I read some of his posts and I thought he was a raving madman.

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:34 am

By the way...

In fact the largest demographic of religious faith in the military and in the American civilian world is Christianity based upon Evangelical Faith. Baptist alone, when all Baptist groups come together, is the largest by far. Our Catholic brothers and sisters of Christian faith normally make up about 20+% of any given military community. Baptists are normally above 50+% and other Evangelical Christians such as Pentecostal and some Protestant denominations raise the average Christian population by name to over 80%.

When I went in the military, they have you check a lot of boxes on a lot of different forms and the religion question was one of them. I've been pretty firmly agnostic since I was a child but I still checked "Catholic". That information, in my opinion obviously, is meaningless. Besides which, being considered Christian doesn't automatically make you anti-everythingelse.

I can't believe you're calling Accountable a liar, spot. He's never been caught in a lie here and I find him to be an honorable man. Flinging names like that should be beneath you, especially as the admin of this forum.

Post by **spot** » Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:42 am

SnoozeAgain;1397424 wrote: I can't believe you're calling Accountable a liar, spot. He's never been caught in a lie here and I find him to be an honorable man. Flinging names like that should be beneath you, especially as the admin of this forum.

You are, of course, quite right. I must apologize at this point unreservedly and without hesitation for my shocking use of the word liar. It was inappropriate, uncalled for, undignified and untrue. I have no excuse to offer in mitigation.

SnoozeAgain;1397424 wrote: When I went in the military, they have you check a lot of boxes on a lot of different forms and the religion question was one of them. I've been pretty firmly agnostic since I was a child but I still checked "Catholic". That information, in my opinion obviously, is meaningless. Besides which, being considered Christian doesn't automatically make you anti-everythingelse. So - just out of interest - did you have a profound respect for Islam? Or were you not of that vast majority.

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:54 am

I don't have a vast respect for any religion. That doesn't mean I want to see everyone dead.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:32 am

SnoozeAgain;1397424 wrote: By the way...

When I went in the military, they have you check a lot of boxes on a lot of different forms and the religion question was one of them. I've been pretty firmly agnostic since I was a child but I still checked "Catholic". That information, in my opinion obviously, is meaningless. Besides which, being considered Christian doesn't automatically make you anti-everything else. Same with me. When I first enlisted I put down either Christian or S Baptist, I forget which. Later when they were making my dog tags I told them (I believe) no religious affiliation. Later that same day a chaplain found me and told me what a monumental mistake I was making, what would my parents think, this is the only way we can determine what kind of service to give me if I should die, on and on. I changed it back just to get him off my back.

SnoozeAgain;1397424 wrote: I can't believe you're calling Accountable a liar, spot. He's never been caught in a lie here and I find him to be an honorable man. Flinging names like that should be beneath you, especially as the admin of this forum.Thank you.

spot;1397440 wrote: You are, of course, quite right. I must apologize at this point unreservedly and without hesitation for my shocking use of the word liar. It was inappropriate, uncalled for, undignified and untrue. I have no excuse to offer in mitigation.
I agree and await your apology, since telling someone else that you should apologize is no apology at all.

Post by **spot** » Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:35 am

Accountable;1397485 wrote: I agree and await your apology, since telling someone else that you should apologize is no apology at all.
You are, of course, quite right. I do apologize at this point unreservedly and without hesitation for my shocking use of the word liar. It was inappropriate, uncalled for, undignified and untrue. I have no excuse to offer in mitigation.