Another anniversary

Post by **spot** » Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:25 pm

Two hundred years ago today, the USA declared war for the first time since the British Crown granted its former American colonies independence and allowed the country to come into existence.

Against whom did the USA declare war for the first time, I hear you ask?

Against the UK.

If I remember right we then proceeded to burn down the Treasury, the Library of Congress, the White House, the Senate Building and the House of Representatives. I understand these have since been reconstructed. The entire war cost the UK £25 million. Money well spent, if you ask me - I'd vote for any prospective MP who offered a repeat performance for the same outlay.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:30 pm

spot;1396896 wrote: Two hundred years ago today, the USA declared war for the first time since Independence.

Against whom, I hear you ask?

Against the UK.

If I remember right we then proceeded to burn down the Treasury, the Library of Congress, the White House, The Senate Building and House of Representatives. I understand these have since been reconstructed. The entire war cost the UK £25 million. Money well spent, if you ask me - I'd vote for any prospective MP who offered a repeat performance for the same outlay.

Is that the war where John Paul Jones invaded Cumbria?

Post by **spot** » Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:34 pm

Bryn Mawr;1396900 wrote: Is that the war where John Paul Jones invaded Cumbria?

That pirate? He'd been dead and buried twenty years by then.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:40 pm

spot;1396903 wrote: That pirate? He'd been and buried twenty years by then.

Well it wouldn't be the time that Canada invaded the US and burnt the White House so I'm at a loss - don't remember that one.

Post by **spot** » Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:43 pm

Bryn Mawr;1396905 wrote: Well it wouldn't be the time that Canada invaded the US and burnt the White House so I'm at a loss - don't remember that one.

I expect they keep plenty of spare masonry and planking round the back to rebuild it each time.

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:45 pm

Link or it never happened.

Post by **spot** » Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:47 pm

SnoozeAgain;1396908 wrote: Link or it never happened.

BBC News - Why the War of 1812 still matters

Wandrin · Post by **Wandrin** » Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:13 pm

As I recall, the whole mess was proof that the world needed email. It took 3 weeks for word to reach North America that it could all be avoided and by then hostilities had begun. I believe that the war could be summed up as "Oops!"

Post by **spot** » Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:21 pm

British inventions, those. We invented the semaphore telegraph, then the electric undersea cable telegraph, then wireless transmission, then email.

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:22 pm

spot;1396910 wrote: BBC News - Why the War of 1812 still matters

I refuse to accept that link, BBC is obviously biased.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:27 pm

No wonder one bumps into obstacles, if one continually looks over ones shoulder.

Post by **spot** » Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:27 pm

SnoozeAgain;1396923 wrote: I refuse to accept that link, BBC is obviously biased.

On June 1, 1812, President James Madison sent a message to Congress asking for a declaration of war against Great Britain. The House of Representatives passed the declaration on June 4 by a vote of 79 yeas and 49 nays. On June 17, the Senate passed the declaration by a vote of 19 yeas and 13 nays.

A Guide to the War of 1812 (Virtual Programs & Services, Library of Congress)

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:31 pm

Didn't you say the Library of Congress was burned down? So how accurate could their information be? Huh? Huh? Huh?

Post by **spot** » Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:32 pm

SnoozeAgain;1396930 wrote: Didn't you say the Library of Congress was burned down? So how accurate could their information be? Huh? Huh? Huh?

Tarnation, she got me.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:03 pm

Chuckle. I know it's appalling. But there is a certain cachet to being the only bunch to have done it.

And of course the rockets' red glare etc - the first contribution by the British to American popular music?

edit: If I've remembered this right, the burning of the White House etc was a very accurately targeted burning - there was virtually no damage to private property at all.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:51 am

spot;1396896 wrote: Two hundred years ago today, the USA declared war for the first time since the British Crown granted its former American colonies independence and allowed the country to come into existence.

Against whom did the USA declare war for the first time, I hear you ask?

Against the UK.

If I remember right we then proceeded to burn down the Treasury, the Library of Congress, the White House, the Senate Building and the House of Representatives. I understand these have since been reconstructed. The entire war cost the UK £25 million. Money well spent, if you ask me - I'd vote for any prospective MP who offered a repeat performance for the same outlay.

You are wrong spot. Apart from any indian wars I do not know about if you mean against whom did they declare war against who was not on the continental united states then that would be the First Barbary War 1801-1805. A conflict memorialised in the marine hymn

From the Halls of Montezuma,

To the shores of Tripoli;

First Barbary War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The british were buying the pirates off - the navy being somewhat too engaged in other matters to have the time to smack a bunch of pirates down. Interestingly enough the activities of north african pirates played a key role in the creation of the royal navy as a counter to their attacks on our shipping.

Nowadays we don't have enough ships to protect a sailing dinghy but never mind - in a stroke of genius we will have a new nuclear deterrent to threaten them with and if the french lend us some planes we will be able to use one of the carriers we might be building. We invented aircraft carriers as well you know.

Post by **spot** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:12 am

gmc;1396944 wrote: You are wrong spot. Apart from any indian wars I do not know about if you mean against whom did they declare war against who was not on the continental united states then that would be the First Barbary War 1801-1805. A conflict memorialised in the marine hymnTo quote from your reference,On Jefferson's inauguration as president in 1801, Yusuf Karamanli, the Pasha (or Bashaw) of Tripoli, demanded $225,000 from the new administration. (In 1800, Federal revenues totaled a little over $10 million.) Putting his long-held beliefs into practice, Jefferson refused the demand. Consequently, on May 10, 1801, the Pasha declared war on the U.S.I think the bit about "the USA declared war for the first time" is quite likely accurate. I agree it's not the first time they fought one.

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:17 am

spot;1396896 wrote: Two hundred years ago today, the USA declared war for the first time since the British Crown granted its former American colonies independence and allowed the country to come into existence.

Against whom did the USA declare war for the first time, I hear you ask?

Against the UK.

If I remember right we then proceeded to burn down the Treasury, the Library of Congress, the White House, the Senate Building and the House of Representatives. I understand these have since been reconstructed. The entire war cost the UK £25 million. Money well spent, if you ask me - I'd vote for any prospective MP who offered a repeat performance for the same outlay.

I thought you were anti war?

In the immortal words of the late Rodney King.

"Can't we all just get along?"

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:17 am

spot;1396896 wrote: Two hundred years ago today, the USA declared war for the first time since the British Crown granted its former American colonies independence and allowed the country to come into existence.

Against whom did the USA declare war for the first time, I hear you ask?

Against the UK.

If I remember right we then proceeded to burn down the Treasury, the Library of Congress, the White House, the Senate Building and the House of Representatives. I understand these have since been reconstructed. The entire war cost the UK £25 million. Money well spent, if you ask me - I'd vote for any prospective MP who offered a repeat performance for the same outlay.Offer the 25mil to the tea party. They might bite.

chonsigirl · Post by **chonsigirl** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:55 am

Well, we had a big old party in Baltimore on this anniversary-tall ships were sailing off this morning after a week of festivities. Blue Angels flew overhead all week, lots of pomp and all that stuff. The little old fort still stands with what is left, and we do quite like it here.

Post by **spot** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:03 am

chonsigirl;1396989 wrote: Well, we had a big old party in Baltimore on this anniversary-tall ships were sailing off this morning after a week of festivities. Blue Angels flew overhead all week, lots of pomp and all that stuff. The little old fort still stands with what is left, and we do quite like it here.

Was it made apparent at any stage that this was a war of offense by the US, not something thrust upon them by an external enemy?

Post by **spot** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:10 am

YZGI;1396976 wrote: I thought you were anti war?

In the immortal words of the late Rodney King.

"Can't we all just get along?"I'm very anti-war. The bit you highlighted would be difficult for anyone to take seriously, I hope. I am not instigating or advocating arson, I'm discussing the political outlook of Bristol West's Member of Parliament, Stephen Williams - for whom, I might add, I voted. He is deficient only in that he lacks George Galloway's tenacity and conviction.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:17 am

spot;1396949 wrote: To quote from your reference,On Jefferson's inauguration as president in 1801, Yusuf Karamanli, the Pasha (or Bashaw) of Tripoli, demanded $225,000 from the new administration. (In 1800, Federal revenues totaled a little over $10 million.) Putting his long-held beliefs into practice, Jefferson refused the demand. Consequently, on May 10, 1801, the Pasha declared war on the U.S.I think the bit about "the USA declared war for the first time" is quite likely accurate. I agree it's not the first time they fought one.

Although Congress never voted on a formal declaration of war, they did authorize the President to instruct the commanders of armed American vessels to seize all vessels and goods of the Pasha of Tripoli "and also to cause to be done all such other acts of precaution or hostility as the state of war will justify."

That's something Americans like arguing about amongst themselves - who has the right to declare war congress or the president. There was even a supreme court case on the matter just before the iraq war. doe vs bush. It does not take a declaration with the words war in it for the US to go to war. You're splitting a semantic hair. If you follow your argument then the korean, Vietnamese and Iraq war did not take place and the the afghanistan war is not happening as we speak. You can argue about it all you like no doubt some american will chip in with the legalistic point of view. War is an organised and sometimes prolonged armed conflict between nation states or other parties. We use the word lightly nowadays perhaps but not mentioning it in a declaration does not mean there is not a war going on.

The barbary wars were quite significant in establishing the US navy as a potent force - In 1812 they were able to give a bloody nose to the Royal Navy. The 1812 war from the British point of view was a minor affair we are only commemorating it to humour the americans who keep singing about it in their national anthem.

chonsigirl · Post by **chonsigirl** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:41 am

spot;1396994 wrote: Was it made apparent at any stage that this was a war of offense by the US, not something thrust upon them by an external enemy?

It was an assault on Ft. McHenry, and the defense of Baltimore. As far as Baltimore is concerned, it was defense of the city, the nation, and the multiple reasons for the war. Washington D.C. didn't stand up too well against the British navy, but Baltimore did much better. It was one of the things I learned when I moved here, since the place names still remain where different war events took place.

I am not here to discuss the causes of the war, but an observation that this week alot of action took place in remembrance of it. Nothing finer than those tall ships in the harbor......

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:20 pm

Any vessel on the bosom of the waters has a magic about it, but there's something special about Tall Ships that other ships just can't match.

And the great thing about commemorating these wars is that they are long over and we will see the 100th anniversary of the Anglo American alliance within my expected lifetime.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:30 pm

Imagine how Germany will feel when we commemorate going to war against them - twice. Rub it in why don't we. Can anyone think of a nation the british have not gone to war against?

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:00 pm

gmc;1397010 wrote: Imagine how Germany will feel when we commemorate going to war against them - twice. Rub it in why don't we. Can anyone think of a nation the british have not gone to war against?
It is a tribute to British longevity.

Post by **spot** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:41 pm

chonsigirl;1397004 wrote: I am not here to discuss the causes of the warNo no, I merely wondered. I'm all for something big with masts and yards and lots of people scrabbling out along them when the breeze changes, and even for recalling the occasions when the local metropolis was endangered. We do all that here as well. The last time Bristol was on fire it was because Britain had declared war on Germany, after all.

Post by **spot** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:42 pm

gmc;1397010 wrote: Imagine how Germany will feel when we commemorate going to war against them - twice. Rub it in why don't we. Can anyone think of a nation the british have not gone to war against?
Portugal.

That may be the entire list, thinking about it.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:17 am

India, funnily enough, cos it didn't exist as a State so we fought Mughals and Mahrathas and Mysore.

Post by **spot** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:22 am

Bloody big battleground though, India. We tended to fight the French there at one stage.

Rather like Portugal in that regard, now I think of it.

Post by **spot** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:27 am

Clodhopper;1396934 wrote: edit: If I've remembered this right, the burning of the White House etc was a very accurately targeted burning - there was virtually no damage to private property at all.

And we gave them an extra five minutes to take out their famous portrait of George Washington before we threw in the faggots. And did I not read somewhere that tradition claims the portrait was saved from destruction by one of the Madisons' slaves?

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:18 am

I thought the slave packed it away in time - wasn't that in the article Lon linked? Doubt we'd have just given them time: it seems to have been a very politically conscious raid, and I'd have assumed that a portrait of Washington actually in the Pres. Res. would be fair game.

Yep, we fought the French in India, but the issue of which European power would have influence in India was mostly settled by the time of the French Revolution. After that it was mostly stopping them regaining that influence as with the conquest of Mysore.

Post by **spot** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:22 am

That was me, not Lon. It was in the Library of Congress article. And alright, the five minutes was dramatic extrapolation on my part.

I'm some way through reading Stanhope's Conversations With Wellington, I'm not sure which of them was the greater bore but the subject matter is fascinating.

chonsigirl · Post by **chonsigirl** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:38 am

spot;1397018 wrote: No no, I merely wondered. I'm all for something big with masts and yards and lots of people scrabbling out along them when the breeze changes, and even for recalling the occasions when the local metropolis was endangered. We do all that here as well. The last time Bristol was on fire it was because Britain had declared war on Germany, after all.

Yes, it is good to remember-because I am pretty much anti-war also. I just study them, cause and effect, ramifications, etc.

LOC is pretty nice now, don't know what it originally was like, I am not that old.........LOL

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:47 am

spot;1397019 wrote: Portugal.

That may be the entire list, thinking about it.

I can't think of anyone else either.

Posted by clodhopper

India, funnily enough, cos it didn't exist as a State so we fought Mughals and Mahrathas and Mysore.

Well in that case you have all the nations formed in the wakes of ww1 and 2, pakistan et al. Up until ww1 end excluding portugal can you think of anyone we did not go to war against.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:07 pm

I think, by some oversight, we may have missed Antarctica? Suspected location of Al-Penguin, a terrorist organisation seeking to make the world safe for flightless waterfowl though documentaries.

(I'm assuming colonies of other empires don't count)

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:03 am

Lol. I recommend Stanhope's reminiscences as lavatory reading. Not a comment on the content, but the short bitty nature of the text suits it rather well. I found them most interesting, not for the politics of the day, but for the picture of Wellington the man, albeit through the hero-worshipping eyes of his friend.

Post by **spot** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:50 am

Clodhopper;1397192 wrote: Lol. I recommend Stanhope's reminiscences as lavatory reading.Do you know, that's precisely where I'm slowly becoming acquainted with Niall Ferguson. Anything more than a paragraph of Colossus without a long break puts me in a strop. I haven't gone near the Reith Lectures yet.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:02 am

Are there two historian Niall Fergusons working at the moment? Or is this the same bloke who has written a history of the British Empire and a fair bit of military history?

Post by **spot** » Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:09 am

Academic chappie. British Empire, American Empire ("Colossus"), you name it, he's written it. There are times when I think Ronald Reagan would have considered him a right wing extremist, but it's not every page.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:13 am

Ooops. Have checked and was confusing him with someone else entirely. My mistake.

Have read his history of the British Empire; none of his economics or WW1 history. Interesting to read an account that wasn't in the liberal tradition of the 1960's I grew up with and thought it made some fair points, though I'd want to read it again before I got into an argument. Which would take a day or two but wouldn't be a problem.