There's an astonishing assertion in a BBC report on hazing this week:The problem is not uniquely American, says Eric Anderson, an American professor at the University of Winchester in the United Kingdom. He says he sees just as much hazing in the UK as in the US.
BBC News - Who, what, why: Why is hazing so common?
Is there anyone here who thinks Eric Anderson is right?
Hazing in the UK, say between 1920 and 1980, had three centres. There were the public schools, the uniformed services and the skilled trades which required apprenticeships. I'm quite certain of two things, firstly that no English university societies were so bone-headed and secondly that hazing in the police, the fire service, the car-making industry would today, if it happened, result in prosecutions for assault. The armed forces may, for all I know, persist in it, but that's another matter.
The article's implication is that it's commonplace in English universities. Balls to that, Professor Anderson, it's nothing of the sort.
Hazing
Hazing
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Hazing
So, you claim that "hazing" has been all but eradicated in the UK?
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- DH Lawrence
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Hazing
Nearest to what has been described is the initiation ceremonies for apprentices in the Print and other trades when they became qualified.
They were embarrassing, uncomfortable, and with a hint of risk sometimes, but I thought they died out long ago.
They were embarrassing, uncomfortable, and with a hint of risk sometimes, but I thought they died out long ago.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
Hazing
LarsMac;1393163 wrote: So, you claim that "hazing" has been all but eradicated in the UK?
Other than possibly in the armed services, yes. As for the universities, to claim hazing is or ever was commonplace here is ridiculous. We don't do these daft lifelong three-letter fraternities here either, they'd be mocked out of existence.
Other than possibly in the armed services, yes. As for the universities, to claim hazing is or ever was commonplace here is ridiculous. We don't do these daft lifelong three-letter fraternities here either, they'd be mocked out of existence.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Hazing
LarsMac;1393163 wrote: So, you claim that "hazing" has been all but eradicated in the UK?
Outside of the major public schools, for which I cannot speak, the armed services where it occasionally creates a stink they cannot perfume over, and inner city gangs of which we have a few, it is not a feature of British life.
Outside of the major public schools, for which I cannot speak, the armed services where it occasionally creates a stink they cannot perfume over, and inner city gangs of which we have a few, it is not a feature of British life.
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Oscar Namechange
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Hazing
I wrote a thread some months ago about Hazing resulting In deaths In the USA...... For that thread, I did a fair bit of searching and reading and I have to say, I could find only one reference for the UK and that was ' Deepcut army barracks In Surrey where a number of deaths were attributed to a form of Hazing or Initiation process.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Clodhopper
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I think there are some organisations and businesses where it goes on. I know someone who's fighting for compensation at the moment. But it is regarded as unacceptable and I don't think it's common. I have never met it myself at work.
But at Uni?
Chuckle. I was at St Andrews, and First Year students there DO undergo a sort of initiation, but it is public and harmless and really only involves making a mess of one of the Quads - First Years are dressed in silly costumes and pelted with porridge, flour, occasionally offal, but nothing actually dangerous. There's heavy drinking involved the evening before, but I've never heard of anyone dying. Possibly because the whole thing is part of a mentoring process that has happened since time immemorial and not an end in itself: All First Year students who want to - and almost everyone does - picks up an "Academic Mother" and "Father" who take on responsibility for the wellbeing of their "Child". It's also the Academic Father who pays for the heavy drinking the night before, which is a sort of inbuilt control. It certainly works at creating friendships across the Years, to an extent I understand is unusual in most Uni's, and I certainly took my role as a "father" seriously when that came up.
So I suppose you might see it as hazing, but I think you'd be wrong. Apart from anything else, it's the shy and introverted who benefit the most, whereas they suffer most from bullying.
But at Uni?
Chuckle. I was at St Andrews, and First Year students there DO undergo a sort of initiation, but it is public and harmless and really only involves making a mess of one of the Quads - First Years are dressed in silly costumes and pelted with porridge, flour, occasionally offal, but nothing actually dangerous. There's heavy drinking involved the evening before, but I've never heard of anyone dying. Possibly because the whole thing is part of a mentoring process that has happened since time immemorial and not an end in itself: All First Year students who want to - and almost everyone does - picks up an "Academic Mother" and "Father" who take on responsibility for the wellbeing of their "Child". It's also the Academic Father who pays for the heavy drinking the night before, which is a sort of inbuilt control. It certainly works at creating friendships across the Years, to an extent I understand is unusual in most Uni's, and I certainly took my role as a "father" seriously when that came up.
So I suppose you might see it as hazing, but I think you'd be wrong. Apart from anything else, it's the shy and introverted who benefit the most, whereas they suffer most from bullying.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Hazing
The armed forces most definitely and in some cases goes on to sadistic bullying like at deep cut, it's a fine line. St Andrews attracts a lot from the public schools where homoerotic bullying is the norm - so I have been led to believe, other universities have their initiation rituals - usually drunken excess but you don't have to take part. The fraternity system is peculiarly american - maybe it's a historical need to prove they belong and are willing to be part of the group whereas we are more inclined towards the who the F are you that I'd want to join you if you convince me I might think about it type of attitude.
Hazing
I'd not, under any circumstances, call a pub crawl hazing.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Clodhopper
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Hazing
public schools where homoerotic bullying is the norm
Not at mine 30 years ago. The rumours were well known, which may explain why the prejudice against homosexuality was if anything worse than in the general population. Calling someone a "homo" or "queer" ( with a few other rude words arranged decoratively around them) was about the worst insult available at the time.
I can't say it's something I've particularly looked into, but my understanding is that what I've described was fairly normal in the Public Schools of thirty years ago. Whether Public Schools nowadays are hotbeds of homosexuality I couldn't say. Rather doubt it though.
Regarding St Andrews - yes, a lot of English there. With the US and Irish contingents (also sizable, though the English were the largest foreign group) we made up nearly half the student population. The result was a very international, cosmopolitan outlook in the East Neuk and my abiding liking for haggis.
The academic father thing goes back hundreds of years, well before there would have been English people there: The Sunday it happens is about 6 weeks into the Michaelmas term and is called Raisin Sunday, because the first years originally presented their fathers with a lb of raisins as a thank-you for looking after them in their first weeks at the place. Academic mothers were added much later when women were admitted to the Uni. I would happily claim it as an English inspired tradition if it were, but it is not, it is entirely homegrown and thoroughly excellent.
Not at mine 30 years ago. The rumours were well known, which may explain why the prejudice against homosexuality was if anything worse than in the general population. Calling someone a "homo" or "queer" ( with a few other rude words arranged decoratively around them) was about the worst insult available at the time.
I can't say it's something I've particularly looked into, but my understanding is that what I've described was fairly normal in the Public Schools of thirty years ago. Whether Public Schools nowadays are hotbeds of homosexuality I couldn't say. Rather doubt it though.
Regarding St Andrews - yes, a lot of English there. With the US and Irish contingents (also sizable, though the English were the largest foreign group) we made up nearly half the student population. The result was a very international, cosmopolitan outlook in the East Neuk and my abiding liking for haggis.
The academic father thing goes back hundreds of years, well before there would have been English people there: The Sunday it happens is about 6 weeks into the Michaelmas term and is called Raisin Sunday, because the first years originally presented their fathers with a lb of raisins as a thank-you for looking after them in their first weeks at the place. Academic mothers were added much later when women were admitted to the Uni. I would happily claim it as an English inspired tradition if it were, but it is not, it is entirely homegrown and thoroughly excellent.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Hazing
spot;1393204 wrote: I'd not, under any circumstances, call a pub crawl hazing.
Which is why I described it as an initiation ritual although I suppose hazing is, in a sense, ritualised bullying. Hazing implies an element of sadism and real victimisation if you do not conform. It does actually take a great deal of strength of character to resist the pressure to join in. With baptism the churches like to get you before you are old enough to decide for yourself and resisting the pressure to later join or be conformed. join the church barmitzvah etc etc is also hard to resist although suggesting to the religious such pressure to conform is is a form of bullying will not go down well.
posted by clodhopper
Regarding St Andrews - yes, a lot of English there. With the US and Irish contingents (also sizable, though the English were the largest foreign group) we made up nearly half the student population. The result was a very international, cosmopolitan outlook in the East Neuk and my abiding liking for haggis.
Used to be a bone of contention that a scottish university favoured englisg a-levels over scottish qualification, don't know if it still is. I was actually born in st. andrews although there is no plaque or anything I take great pleasure in not playing golf.
Which is why I described it as an initiation ritual although I suppose hazing is, in a sense, ritualised bullying. Hazing implies an element of sadism and real victimisation if you do not conform. It does actually take a great deal of strength of character to resist the pressure to join in. With baptism the churches like to get you before you are old enough to decide for yourself and resisting the pressure to later join or be conformed. join the church barmitzvah etc etc is also hard to resist although suggesting to the religious such pressure to conform is is a form of bullying will not go down well.
posted by clodhopper
Regarding St Andrews - yes, a lot of English there. With the US and Irish contingents (also sizable, though the English were the largest foreign group) we made up nearly half the student population. The result was a very international, cosmopolitan outlook in the East Neuk and my abiding liking for haggis.
Used to be a bone of contention that a scottish university favoured englisg a-levels over scottish qualification, don't know if it still is. I was actually born in st. andrews although there is no plaque or anything I take great pleasure in not playing golf.
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Clodhopper
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Hazing
Used to be a bone of contention that a scottish university favoured englisg a-levels over scottish qualification,
News to me. I just went there. There was a certain amount of resentment from some at any English being there at all and the usual town/gown issues, so I may have it mixed up with them. Very educational, if a bit shocking, to be hated on principle purely for your race. It left me with a lasting dislike of and contempt for certain sorts of nationalism. A very minor part of the experience though, and my time there was a joy.
I was actually born in st. andrews although there is no plaque or anything
How very fitting: gmc born in the same place as the Scottish Reformation!:yh_rotfl
Anyway, they probably knocked down the Cathedral in anticipation of your birth.
News to me. I just went there. There was a certain amount of resentment from some at any English being there at all and the usual town/gown issues, so I may have it mixed up with them. Very educational, if a bit shocking, to be hated on principle purely for your race. It left me with a lasting dislike of and contempt for certain sorts of nationalism. A very minor part of the experience though, and my time there was a joy.
I was actually born in st. andrews although there is no plaque or anything
How very fitting: gmc born in the same place as the Scottish Reformation!:yh_rotfl
Anyway, they probably knocked down the Cathedral in anticipation of your birth.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
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Clodhopper
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Hazing
Clodhopper;1393236 wrote: News to me. I just went there. There was a certain amount of resentment from some at any English being there at all and the usual town/gown issues, so I may have it mixed up with them. Very educational, if a bit shocking, to be hated on principle purely for your race. It left me with a lasting dislike of and contempt for certain sorts of nationalism. A very minor part of the experience though, and my time there was a joy.
How very fitting: gmc born in the same place as the Scottish Reformation!:yh_rotfl
Anyway, they probably knocked down the Cathedral in anticipation of your birth.
I remember coming across a memorial to protestant martyrs in the middle of a field (literally) outside of the town we later moved to. It got me interested as up until that point I had been unaware of the conflict between catholic and protestant that so shaped our nation. What really brought it home was when the catholics built a primary school (I was seven at the time) and a large group of my friends disappeared and for some reason we were not allowed to mix. A few months later fights between proddies and papes became a feature amongst children who used to play together. You really do need to be taught to hate and fear. There will always be those who will find reason to bully the problem really becomes extreme when it is institutionalised or become s"normal" and people should just accept it.
How very fitting: gmc born in the same place as the Scottish Reformation!:yh_rotfl
Anyway, they probably knocked down the Cathedral in anticipation of your birth.
I remember coming across a memorial to protestant martyrs in the middle of a field (literally) outside of the town we later moved to. It got me interested as up until that point I had been unaware of the conflict between catholic and protestant that so shaped our nation. What really brought it home was when the catholics built a primary school (I was seven at the time) and a large group of my friends disappeared and for some reason we were not allowed to mix. A few months later fights between proddies and papes became a feature amongst children who used to play together. You really do need to be taught to hate and fear. There will always be those who will find reason to bully the problem really becomes extreme when it is institutionalised or become s"normal" and people should just accept it.
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Clodhopper
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Hazing
It's the not allowed to mix bit that gets me. Just a recipe for conflict creation.
Given that people WILL be religious - it seems impossible to stop them inventing cults - I am actually in favour of some form of organisation and sensible people getting a chance as well as the bigots. It can be done - Liverpool had a bad sectarian problem back post-war, so the Anglican and Catholic Bishops got together and started doing joint services and actively promoting Christian fellowship in its best sense. It worked - I'm not saying the problem completely vanished never to return, but I wouldn't say Liverpool today is associated with sectarian unrest. I'm not sure it didn't have something to do with the creation of the religious talking shop we've got today for the top bods of all the accepted religions in the the country whose name I can't recall. All in favour of that, too. After a few hours of Anglican cake and tea most people will agree to anything. I'm not sure it shouldn't be classed as cruel and unusual punishment, but we seem to get away with it.
Given that people WILL be religious - it seems impossible to stop them inventing cults - I am actually in favour of some form of organisation and sensible people getting a chance as well as the bigots. It can be done - Liverpool had a bad sectarian problem back post-war, so the Anglican and Catholic Bishops got together and started doing joint services and actively promoting Christian fellowship in its best sense. It worked - I'm not saying the problem completely vanished never to return, but I wouldn't say Liverpool today is associated with sectarian unrest. I'm not sure it didn't have something to do with the creation of the religious talking shop we've got today for the top bods of all the accepted religions in the the country whose name I can't recall. All in favour of that, too. After a few hours of Anglican cake and tea most people will agree to anything. I'm not sure it shouldn't be classed as cruel and unusual punishment, but we seem to get away with it.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."