Police Officer David Rathband found dead... discussion

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:38 pm

Pc David Rathband shot and blinded by Raoul Moat is found dead in a suspected suicide | Mail Online

I think I can honestly say that no headline has brought me such sadness In many a year.

koan · Post by **koan** » Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:41 pm

No headline?

Really?

There are so many.

What about the dead children in Syria? They didn't even choose a dangerous profession.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:40 am

koan;1386149 wrote: No headline?

Really?

There are so many.

What about the dead children in Syria? They didn't even choose a dangerous profession.

My exact words were 'Such sadness'.... This does not dictate that other headlines cause me no sadness period.

koan · Post by **koan** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:50 am

Sure it sucks but... I'm glad "such sadness" has been overwhelmed by "more sadness" in other news.

Seems to me that there were a number of contributing factors to this man's death. Ultimately one never knows everything that was going on in the private lives of strangers. I was at a pub one day and sat next to a guy who was friends with a construction worker who was crushed by a crane that day. That dude didn't have to try to keep living, because he didn't have the chance, he just died. That was pretty freakin' sad too.

But still, it's not like they were children who had a bomb dropped on them.

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:26 am

Koan's absolutely right, Oscar. You should rethink what makes you sad and if it doesn't fall into line with her requirements, think harder.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:40 am

SnoozeAgain;1386175 wrote: Koan's absolutely right, Oscar. You should rethink what makes you sad and if it doesn't fall into line with her requirements, think harder.

:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl

I'll tell you why I am so sad about this.

Two years ago, he was just a regular guy doing his job as a police officer. He had a good job, a nice home, a beautiful wife and children. He was a young and good looking man.

When he was shot, not once but twice In the face virtually at point blank, he was not In a confrontational stand off. He was sitting In his squad car, totally Innocent. Moat approached the car and shot him In the face twice. He played dead In order to alert police that a nutter was on the rampage. Had he not of done that and got a rapid response via his radio despite being horrifically Injured, the death toll at the hands of Moat could have been a lot higher.

He suffered horrific Injuries that took him over a year to recover from after many bouts of major surgery. He was left In pain from the shot still left In his head.

As he tried to come to terms with being blind, his marraige was destroyed under the strain.

One day, he was a regular guy sitting In his car, working, the next, he lost his sight, his career, his wife, his children and his home.

He struggled a great deal to over-come the trauma of his shooting but the thing that saddens me so much, is that after two years of such bravery, he lost all hope ... That's tragic.

theia · Post by **theia** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:02 am

oscar;1386178 wrote: :yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl

I'll tell you why I am so sad about this.

Two years ago, he was just a regular guy doing his job as a police officer. He had a good job, a nice home, a beautiful wife and children. He was a young and good looking man.

When he was shot, not once but twice In the face virtually at point blank, he was not In a confrontational stand off. He was sitting In his squad car, totally Innocent. Moat approached the car and shot him In the face twice. He played dead In order to alert police that a nutter was on the rampage. Had he not of done that and got a rapid response via his radio despite being horrifically Injured, the death toll at the hands of Moat could have been a lot higher.

He suffered horrific Injuries that took him over a year to recover from after many bouts of major surgery. He was left In pain from the shot still left In his head.

As he tried to come to terms with being blind, his marraige was destroyed under the strain.

One day, he was a regular guy sitting In his car, working, the next, he lost his sight, his career, his wife, his children and his home.

He struggled a great deal to over-come the trauma of his shooting but the thing that saddens me so much, is that after two years of such bravery, he lost all hope ... That's tragic.

What PC Rathband and his family must have gone through is really tragic.

And this tragedy has deeply affected you, me and probably thousands of other people. We don't have to justify our depth of feeling for this or compare it to our feelings for other tragedies.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:06 am

theia;1386185 wrote: What PC Rathband and his family must have gone through is really tragic.

And this tragedy has deeply affected you, me and probably thousands of other people. We don't have to justify our depth of feeling for this or compare it to our feelings for other tragedies.

Thank you...

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:02 am

Before he was shot

Attached files

Post by **spot** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:25 am

jones jones;1386198 wrote: I have always believed that men and women who put their lives on the line day and night, albeit by choice, should be very well paid and well supported when they are injured in the line of duty.You don't feel that "put their lives on the line day and night" is a bit emotive, considering the comparatively low rate at which they're lost? It seems a bogus phrase about a non-existent problem. Or would you like to include forestry workers and trawlermen and cab drivers along with these paramilitary public servants you seem to be reserving the phrase for (I'm looking at "in the line of duty" when I say that).

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:34 am

spot;1386203 wrote: You don't feel that "put their lives on the line day and night" is a bit emotive, considering the comparatively low rate at which they're lost? It seems a bogus phrase about a non-existent problem. Or would you like to include forestry workers and trawlermen and cab drivers along with these paramilitary public servants you seem to be reserving the phrase for (I'm looking at "in the line of duty" when I say that). JJ Is American and out there every officer puts his life on the line every day. If you don't believe me, get a TV and watch the FBI files to see what every day officers are faced with In downtown Cities. Even something as Innocent as a traffic cop pulling a car over can end up with a dead police officer.

True, we do not have that here as much ( yet ) because guns are Illegal here but In some cities rampant with gang culture, It's getting that way....Don't believe me... get a TV and watch some of our fly on the wall policing.

http://www.channel4.com/news/london-gun ... ingly-high

Post by **spot** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:41 am

oscar;1386205 wrote: JJ Is American and out there every officer puts his life on the line every day. If you don't believe me, get a TV and watch the FBI files to see what every day officers are faced with In downtown Cities. Even something as Innocent as a traffic cop pulling a car over can end up with a dead police officer.

True, we do not have that here as much ( yet ) because guns are Illegal here but In some cities rampant with gang culture, It's getting that way....Don't believe me... get a TV and watch some of our fly on the wall policing.
Morbid inaccuracy, I suggest you check the graph (and even read the discussion) from six years ago at http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/crime ... post315712

eta: and no, JJ's anything but an American.

As for the US, the last time I checked there were around 50 officers unlawfully killed on duty each year with another 150 dying on the job.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:44 am

spot;1386207 wrote: Morbid inaccuracy, I suggest you check the graph (and even read the discussion) from six years ago at http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/crime ... post315712

An I suggest to you that gun culture In our cities Is very different from six years ago when that thread was posted....

Try something more up to date Spot such as this :

London gun crime figures 'worryingly high' - Channel 4 News

Post by **spot** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:51 am

oscar;1386208 wrote: An I suggest to you that gun culture In our cities Is very different from six years ago when that thread was posted....

Try something more up to date Spot such as this :

London gun crime figures 'worryingly high' - Channel 4 News

Are you seriously trying to pretend that the risk of death to a police officer in the UK is higher than the risk of death to a roofer, trawlerman, construction worker, cab driver, warehouseman? And if not, what justifies the emotional blackmail in "put their lives on the line day and night [...] in the line of duty"?

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:58 am

spot;1386209 wrote: Are you seriously trying to pretend that the risk of death to a police officer in the UK is higher than the risk of death to a roofer, trawlerman, construction worker, cab driver, warehouseman? And if not, what justifies the emotional blackmail in "put their lives on the line day and night [...] in the line of duty"? God, It's like trying to nail milk to the wall.

You're not getting It are You ? You're not seeing the wider picture.

It's not the figures of police officers actually killed by gunshot In action or even wounded. It's In relation to how many citizens posses a gun. When any officer deals with anyone In possession of any weapon, they are by some degree at risk.

Post by **spot** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:00 am

oscar;1386210 wrote: God, It's like trying to nail milk to the wall.

You're not getting It are You ? You're not seeing the wider picture.

It's not the figures of police officers actually killed by gunshot In action or even wounded. It's In relation to how many citizens posses a gun. When any officer deals with anyone In possession of any weapon, they are by some degree at risk.
And the risk is quantified. And the chances of it, or any other cause, resulting in the death of any one officer are lower than the industrial hazard facing any of those other professions I quoted as examples. Obviously if you pre-select an officer who has had a gun pointing at him that year you skew the risk, just as you would if you insisted on only counting trawlermen whose boat had just sunk at sea.

Post by **jones jones** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:00 am

spot;1386203 wrote: You don't feel that "put their lives on the line day and night" is a bit emotive, considering the comparatively low rate at which they're lost? It seems a bogus phrase about a non-existent problem. Or would you like to include forestry workers and trawlermen and cab drivers along with these paramilitary public servants you seem to be reserving the phrase for (I'm looking at "in the line of duty" when I say that).

Emotive is as emotive does!

Hardly ... but I would include members of the armed forces, fire fighters and nurses.

Post by **jones jones** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:05 am

spot;1386207 wrote: Morbid inaccuracy, I suggest you check the graph (and even read the discussion) from six years ago at http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/crime ... post315712

eta: and no, JJ's anything but an American.

As for the US, the last time I checked there were around 50 officers unlawfully killed on duty each year with another 150 dying on the job.

Please don't presume to answer for me captain Kirk. I can do the job adequately on my own.

Post by **spot** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:09 am

jones jones;1386214 wrote: Please don't presume to answer for me captain Kirk. I can do the job adequately on my own.
You can?

It's just that last time she said it, you didn't.

Post by **spot** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:13 am

jones jones;1386212 wrote: Hardly ... but I would include members of the armed forces, fire fighters and nurses.
So would I. The combined UK members of police, army, firefighters and nurses are at less risk of dying on duty than anyone in the industrial sectors I've listed today. The same's true if you remove the nurses from the count.

Post by **jones jones** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:14 am

spot;1386203 wrote: You don't feel that "put their lives on the line day and night" is a bit emotive, considering the comparatively low rate at which they're lost? It seems a bogus phrase about a non-existent problem. Or would you like to include forestry workers and trawlermen and cab drivers along with these paramilitary public servants you seem to be reserving the phrase for (I'm looking at "in the line of duty" when I say that).

A forestry worker in Oregon felling a Pine tree is gonna impact on the crime rate in New York? If it somehow stops a heroin or crack addict killing someone on the East side, then by all means pay him. If not, what's your logical point?

Post by **spot** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:17 am

jones jones;1386217 wrote: A forestry worker in Oregon felling a Pine tree is gonna impact on the crime rate in New York? If it somehow stops a heroin or crack addict killing someone on the East side, then by all means pay him. If not, what's your logical point?

That the deliberate emotional blackmail in "put their lives on the line day and night [...] in the line of duty" is a shoddy ploy used far too often to attempt to gull the public. City centres are closed for all-uniform parades to the cathedral when a police officer or firefighter dies on duty, for example. When did you last see that done for a steelworker flattened in a press?

Post by **jones jones** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:17 am

spot;1386216 wrote: So would I. The combined UK members of police, army, firefighters and nurses are at less risk of dying on duty than anyone in the industrial sectors I've listed today. The same's true if you remove the nurses from the count.

Nothing wrong with your reasoning ... however, do industrial workers face down soccer hooligans and their ilk, not to mention gang members high on drugs who spit on them & hurl abuse?

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:18 am

spot;1386215 wrote: You can?

It's just that last time she said it, you didn't.

I watch Sky Discovery channel In the small hours If I can't sleep and there Is a series on there called Police hero's or something like that. Sorry but I can't for the life of me remember what It's called.

Anyway, It's about British police officers who have been attacked with a weapon and lived to tell the tale. It's an eye opener !!! Officers get attacked with anything from screw drivers to Samuri Swords.

I watched one video clip only this week where residents had reported a drunk shouting In the street and swearing. Squad car pulls up and two plods approach the man to have a chat to get him to move on. As they got to him, with absolutely no warning, this nut job just pulls out a pair of scissors from his pocket and stabs one officer In the face.

My point Is that Police fatality stats are Irrelevant when asking If officers put their lives on the line every day. Every time they deal with anyone who has a weapon, they are at risk.

Post by **spot** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:20 am

jones jones;1386219 wrote: Nothing wrong with your reasoning ... however, do industrial workers face down soccer hooligans and their ilk, not to mention gang members high on drugs who spit on them & hurl abuse?

I thought we were discussing your emotive blackmail, JJ. The "put their lives on the line day and night [...] in the line of duty" wrestling you impose on those who read your posts. Or are you withdrawing "lives" at this point?

theia · Post by **theia** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:20 am

Is there any chance that FG could have a RIP forum for people to express their sadness and respect for the deceased and their families?

Post by **jones jones** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:20 am

spot;1386218 wrote: That the deliberate emotional blackmail in "put their lives on the line day and night [...] in the line of duty" is a shoddy ploy used far too often to attempt to gull the public. City centres are closed for all-uniform parades to the cathedral when a police officer or firefighter dies on duty, for example. When did you last see that done for a steelworker flattened in a press?

Or a child raped to death by a paedophile, a woman gang raped, a late night party leaver stabbed in the face with a broken bottle, a breadwinner killed by a drunken driver? Logic please.

Post by **spot** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:21 am

oscar;1386220 wrote: My point Is that Police fatality stats are Irrelevant when asking If officers put their lives on the line every day.
I shall frame that and treasure it for ever.

Post by **spot** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:22 am

jones jones;1386223 wrote: Or a child raped to death by a paedophile, a woman gang raped, a late night party leaver stabbed in the face with a broken bottle, a breadwinner killed by a drunken driver? Logic please.

You just went into orbit. God only knows what that post was about.

Post by **jones jones** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:25 am

spot;1386221 wrote: I thought we were discussing your emotive blackmail, JJ. The "put their lives on the line day and night [...] in the line of duty" wrestling you impose on those who read your posts. Or are you withdrawing "lives" at this point?

Ever seen a tree fight back, a press kill someone unless they ignored basic safety regulations? Who you gonna call when a gang breaks into your home, pistol whips you and rapes your loved ones ? The metalworkers union? The industrial council? Your MP?

Who you gonna call? Ghostbusters?

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:27 am

jones jones;1386219 wrote: Nothing wrong with your reasoning ... however, do industrial workers face down soccer hooligans and their ilk, not to mention gang members high on drugs who spit on them & hurl abuse? I bet Spot has absolutely no Idea what British police go through. It's not limited to football violence.... try some of these Spot !!!!

Bolton EDL UAF police tactics fighting and arrests March 2010 - YouTube

EDL Rioting and lifting weapons Stoke 23rd January 2010 - YouTube

Muslims offend British soldiers in Barking (East London) - YouTube

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:29 am

theia;1386222 wrote: Is there any chance that FG could have a RIP forum for people to express their sadness and respect for the deceased and their families?

Without the constant prodding that there's something wrong with the sadness and respect.

Good idea, Theia.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:30 am

theia;1386222 wrote: Is there any chance that FG could have a RIP forum for people to express their sadness and respect for the deceased and their families? I agree.... Let's split this thread now and continue the debate of what police officer go through.

This Is now the third RIP thread where Spot has come In and taken It off on a tangent.

Post by **spot** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:31 am

theia;1386222 wrote: Is there any chance that FG could have a RIP forum for people to express their sadness and respect for the deceased and their families?

It's socially inappropriate to say anything negative about a recently deceased person. I don't think anyone's done that in this thread. What's been repeatedly challenged is the meaningless platitudes people have attached to the event when propagating myths about policing, *that* is the deplorable lapse of good taste we've seen here. What's more I'm of the opinion that "Police Officer David Rathband" was dismally and repeatedly let down by the complaisant philistines he'd worked for prior to his blinding and that they'd much rather have had a dead hero on their hands than a living critic. Lauding the force that let him down so badly is scarcely doing his memory any honour.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:31 am

jones jones;1386226 wrote: Ever seen a tree fight back, a press kill someone unless they ignored basic safety regulations? Who you gonna call when a gang breaks into your home, pistol whips you and rapes your loved ones ? The metalworkers union? The industrial council? Your MP?

Who you gonna call? Ghostbusters?
High Five JJ

Post by **jones jones** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:32 am

spot;1386225 wrote: You just went into orbit. God only knows what that post was about.

I gotta hand it to you man ... You have the ability to change aspects quicker and better than a chameleon changes color.

This isn't your debating thread sergeant ... It's oscar's thread on Current Events.

My point, and I don't give a flying flamingo how or what you believe we should be "debating" ... we're debating? ... is that the policemen and women out in the field, deserve the support and respect of every citizen living in that particular country or city and the same plus plus plus from their employers.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:34 am

spot;1386230 wrote: It's socially inappropriate to say anything negative about a recently deceased person. I don't think anyone's done that in this thread. What's been repeatedly challenged is the meaningless platitudes people have attached to the event when propagating myths about policing, *that* is the deplorable lapse of good taste we've seen here. What's more I'm of the opinion that "Police Officer David Rathband" was dismally and repeatedly let down by the complaisant philistines he'd worked for prior to his blinding and that they'd much rather have had a dead hero on their hands than a living critic. Lauding the force that let him down so badly is scarcely doing his memory any honour. Meaningless platitudes ????

You sanctimonious twerp.

The man went through hell.

Two young children have lost their Father.

Post by **jones jones** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:35 am

spot;1386230 wrote: It's socially inappropriate to say anything negative about a recently deceased person. I don't think anyone's done that in this thread. What's been repeatedly challenged is the meaningless platitudes people have attached to the event when propagating myths about policing, *that* is the deplorable lapse of good taste we've seen here. What's more I'm of the opinion that "Police Officer David Rathband" was dismally and repeatedly let down by the complaisant philistines he'd worked for prior to his blinding and that they'd much rather have had a dead hero on their hands than a living critic. Lauding the force that let him down so badly is scarcely doing his memory any honour.

Exactly ... Now if you'd said that a while back, I could have gone and had my supper.

theia · Post by **theia** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:40 am

SnoozeAgain;1386228 wrote: Without the constant prodding that there's something wrong with the sadness and respect.

Good idea, Theia.

Exactly, Snooze

Post by **spot** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:44 am

oscar;1386233 wrote: Meaningless platitudes ????

You sanctimonious twerp.

The man went through hell.

Two young children have lost their Father.

That's not where I intervened. I intervened after the meaningless platitudes of the final paragraph of JJ's post#11.

Post by **jones jones** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:47 am

Meaningless platitudes? Meaningless platitudes? Hey ... don't make me come over there and grab you around the throat dude!!

Who'd you call then?

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:51 am

spot;1386236 wrote: That's not where I intervened. I intervened after the meaningless platitudes of the final paragraph of JJ's post#11.
Why don't you be a man and come clean here Spot.

Let's say this wasn't David Rathband. Let's say a nut job randomly shot at the public and one of the public happened to be John Barrowman. He's blinded and disfigured. He finds It all too much and hangs himself.

You would be spouting meaningless platitudes quicker than a rat up a drainpipe.

It;s because David Rathband was a police officer Isn't It ?

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:51 am

jones jones;1386237 wrote: Meaningless platitudes? Meaningless platitudes? Hey ... don't make me come over there and grab you around the throat dude!!

Who'd you call then?

The Steelworkers Union

theia · Post by **theia** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:56 am

spot;1386230 wrote: It's socially inappropriate to say anything negative about a recently deceased person. I don't think anyone's done that in this thread. What's been repeatedly challenged is the meaningless platitudes people have attached to the event when propagating myths about policing, *that* is the deplorable lapse of good taste we've seen here. What's more I'm of the opinion that "Police Officer David Rathband" was dismally and repeatedly let down by the complaisant philistines he'd worked for prior to his blinding and that they'd much rather have had a dead hero on their hands than a living critic. Lauding the force that let him down so badly is scarcely doing his memory any honour.

This began as a simple thread for people to express their sadness and to show their respect for PC Rathband and his family. In my opinion it would be a good idea if members could do that in a RIP forum.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:10 am

theia;1386240 wrote: This began as a simple thread for people to express their sadness and to show their respect for PC Rathband and his family. In my opinion it would be a good idea if members could do that in a RIP forum. Agreed... as I said earlier, split the thread.

There Is a special edition on TV tonight about David.

For those who don't get to see It, this Is a clip from his Interview In 2010...... You may have to wait a few seconds for video to load.

Video: PC David Rathband: losing my sight was devastating - Telegraph

How can anyone watch him In this and not be moved?

Meaningless Platitudes my arsse.

Post by **spot** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:10 am

theia;1386240 wrote: This began as a simple thread for people to express their sadness and to show their respect for PC Rathband and his family. In my opinion it would be a good idea if members could do that in a RIP forum.

And it would be a moderated space where contentious propaganda like "put their lives on the line day and night [...] line of duty" should be deleted rather than discussed? Or should everything other than expressions of sadness and respect be deleted? Or should it be unmoderated on a basis of trust? Because this well-established approach to telling a big lie often enough and it gets accepted as truth really ought to be tackled head on somehow, and the big lie was in the thread before I first posted here.

Post by **jones jones** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:20 am

spot;1386244 wrote: And it would be a moderated space where contentious propaganda like "put their lives on the line day and night [...] line of duty" should be deleted rather than discussed? Or should everything other than expressions of sadness and respect be deleted? Or should it be unmoderated on a basis of trust? Because this well-established approach to telling a big lie often enough and it gets accepted as truth really ought to be tackled head on somehow, and the big lie was in the thread before I first posted here.

I make no apology for supporting the men and women who "put their lives at risk day and night" and this cannot be called a "big lie." The policemen and woman who are called out every day and night when John Doe and Jane Doe's lives are in danger do put there own lives at risk.

Calling this statement "contentious propaganda" is just not on.

I ask you for the third time ... when you and yours are being threatened who are YOU gonna call and why?

theia · Post by **theia** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:21 am

spot;1386244 wrote: And it would be a moderated space where contentious propaganda like "put their lives on the line day and night [...] line of duty" should be deleted rather than discussed? Or should everything other than expressions of sadness and respect be deleted? Or should it be unmoderated on a basis of trust? Because this well-established approach to telling a big lie often enough and it gets accepted as truth really ought to be tackled head on somehow, and the big lie was in the thread before I first posted here.

I don't have a problem with "put their lives on the line...." and wouldn't have a problem with it in an RIP thread. And I can't imagine why anyone but those who wish to express their condolences would use an RIP forum.

Which big lie are you referring to?

Post by **Betty Boop** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:25 am

Maybe if the general membership are asking for a thread that can be left for respect it should be allowed. Maybe this thread needs to be split so respect and condolences may be said without being picked apart.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:26 am

Ok Spot..... Here's a little question for you.

As you and I both reside In Bristol......... why are the police In Bristol armed to the hilt ? hmmmm ?

BBC NEWS | UK | England | Armed police on Bristol streets

So In your world, are you seriously suggesting that rival drug gangs can carry guns but our police shouldn't?