Virginia Tech Shooting

flopstock · Post by **flopstock** » Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:21 pm

AP is reporting Virginia Tech confirms one officer and another person killed in a shooting on campus today.

Didn't they just go through this a few years ago?

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:36 pm

Yes, but this incident has been reported to be the result of a traffic stop and shots fired between the suspect and a police officer...I suppose at this time it's unclear whether the student had intended at all to target other students unlike the incident in 2007

Post by **spot** » Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:17 pm

This may be a silly question but why's there traffic on a campus in the first place, much less traffic police?

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:15 pm

Good god not again .

flopstock · Post by **flopstock** » Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:37 pm

gunman believed to be dead

WonderWendy3 · Post by **WonderWendy3** » Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:01 pm

We have just discovered that this young man went to the same high school as my kids and my oldest son probably knew him seeings how he was a linebacker for the football team. I haven't talked to my son yet but I'm pretty sure he knew him....this is so very sad.

Post by **spot** » Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:51 am

Back when things were saner, students walked.

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:38 am

Here's a map of the campus. Most colleges that I've seen cover quite a bit of real estate and include thru-roads on at least the edges.

Post by **spot** » Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:50 am

How can it be called a map if there's no scale on it? That's just lazy and inept, leaving the scale off.

I'd guess no part of that map is more than a 20 minute walk to any other, and that department buildings are clustered. What it needs is an off-site car park and an on-site free circular bus for those who consider themselves disabled or incapable.

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:54 am

Does this help?

Main campus includes more than 125 buildings, 2,600 acres, and an airport.

I'm having trouble finding out the size of the typical college campus in the UK so I'll leave that to you.

Post by **spot** » Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:17 am

SnoozeAgain;1378218 wrote: I'm having trouble finding out the size of the typical college campus in the UK so I'll leave that to you. The one up the road has 30,000 students and charges £79 a year for a student car parking permit. The student car parks are outside the campus boundaries. There are five main sites around town split on departmental lines. Not many English universities restrict themselves to a single site, quite a few are embedded in city centres where they properly belong. Students ought to be a part of the community, not stuck away in barracks.

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:45 am

You should contact someone, I'm sure they'd appreciate hearing from you.

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:01 am

spot;1378048 wrote: This may be a silly question but why's there traffic on a campus in the first place, much less traffic police?For teachers and students beyond their sophomore year to get to and from buildings and stores and whatnot...It could very well be that this police officer and the brave citizen stopped the madman from massacring more than Seung-Hui Cho did in 2007...

Post by **spot** » Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:20 am

K.Snyder;1378227 wrote: For teachers and students beyond their sophomore year to get to and from buildings and stores and whatnot...It could very well be that this police officer and the brave citizen stopped the madman from massacring more than Seung-Hui Cho did in 2007...

What brave citizen is that?

I'm surprised to hear you suggest the killer was carrying so much ammunition, I've not seen any hint of that in the news.

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:12 am

spot;1378228 wrote: What brave citizen is that?

I'm surprised to hear you suggest the killer was carrying so much ammunition, I've not seen any hint of that in the news.He could have bit the rest...

My apologies, the first reports I'd heard on the news was that someone tried to intercept the shooter and was then shot but it seems this isn't true...Perhaps we can transfer that characterization to the police officer...

Post by **spot** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:26 am

And the "madman" bit? How does this killing differ in magnitude from all the others this year in the US. From what I've seen reported, the killer wasn't pulled over by the traffic policeman, the man he shot happened to be an on-duty traffic policeman. I've no reason to think it was a random shooting, have you?

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:59 am

spot;1378421 wrote: And the "madman" bit? How does this killing differ in magnitude from all the others this year in the US. From what I've seen reported, the killer wasn't pulled over by the traffic policeman, the man he shot happened to be an on-duty traffic policeman. I've no reason to think it was a random shooting, have you?I honestly cannot see how any shooting is random but no the killer apparently shot the police officer due to the killer being paranoid from having "confirmed that Ashley stole a car at gunpoint from a Radford rental office Wednesday"...

Police identify Virginia Tech shooter - wdbj7.com

Post by **spot** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:03 am

K.Snyder;1378424 wrote: I honestly cannot see how any shooting is random
We've gone in a circle. I'm saying this one was no more apparently random than the majority of killings in the US, in reaction to you saying people had "stopped the madman from massacring more than Seung-Hui Cho did in 2007.." - randomly, you'll remember.

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:16 pm

spot;1378425 wrote: We've gone in a circle. I'm saying this one was no more apparently random than the majority of killings in the US, in reaction to you saying people had "stopped the madman from massacring more than Seung-Hui Cho did in 2007.." - randomly, you'll remember.I never said that, I said "could have" which gives justification for having traffic police. It also suggests that having more "traffic police", which do not exist in the context in which you'd used the term, can as well as could have stopped prior incidences involving shootings on campus...

We can talk about that but I'd never made any assertions of fact pertaining to this case in this thread

Post by **spot** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:22 pm

K.Snyder;1378458 wrote: I never said that, I said "could have" which gives justification for having traffic police. It also suggests that having more "traffic police"
Just to be clear, the traffic policeman didn't stop or flag down or detain the chap who killed him. The chap who killed him walked up to him without any prior exchange, as far as I'm aware, and shot him dead. In what way is any of this justification for having traffic police?

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:40 pm

spot;1378462 wrote: Just to be clear, the traffic policeman didn't stop or flag down or detain the chap who killed him. The chap who killed him walked up to him without any prior exchange, as far as I'm aware, and shot him dead. In what way is any of this justification for having traffic police?Because this madman would have killed the next police officer had Mr. Crouse called off ill. Any suggestion that less police equates to less crime otherwise is one I don't agree with...Which leads to other more prudent suggestions in my mind

Post by **spot** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:56 pm

What reason have you to think he was out with the intention of shooting a policeman? Again, I've red nothing to suggest such a thing.

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:38 pm

spot;1378476 wrote: What reason have you to think he was out with the intention of shooting a policeman? Again, I've red nothing to suggest such a thing.I wouldn't assume he went out to intentionally shoot a police officer so long as a police officer hadn't been within his line of sight... http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/curre ... ost1378424

Post by **spot** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:41 pm

K.Snyder;1378494 wrote: I wouldn't assume he went out to intentionally shoot a police officer so long as a police officer hadn't been within his line of sight...
Then how on earth can you say "this madman would have killed the next police officer had Mr. Crouse called off ill"??

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:04 pm

spot;1378495 wrote: Then how on earth can you say "this madman would have killed the next police officer had Mr. Crouse called off ill"??He shot Mr. Crouse point blank after an obvious meltdown and the incident was provoked by Ross Ashley being in possession of a firearm. It's only reasonable to conclude that Ross Ashley has had some prior incidence in the past with officers writing him speeding tickets, of which, it seems Mr. Ashley had held an extremely disgruntled bias against.

Or maybe, just maybe, Mr. Ashley apparently hadn't appreciated Mr. Crouse's body language during the traffic stop

Post by **spot** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:06 am

K.Snyder;1378501 wrote: It's only reasonable to conclude that Ross Ashley has had some prior incidence in the past with officers writing him speeding tickets, of which, it seems Mr. Ashley had held an extremely disgruntled bias against.Ah. No, that's called wild guesswork with no basis other than speculation, it's not "reasonable" in the slightest. It's speculative. It's not a sound basis on which to claim "this madman would have killed the next police officer had Mr. Crouse called off ill", it's fictional.

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:18 pm

spot;1378515 wrote: Ah. No, that's called wild guesswork with no basis other than speculation, it's not "reasonable" in the slightest. It's speculative. It's not a sound basis on which to claim "this madman would have killed the next police officer had Mr. Crouse called off ill", it's fictional.It can be inferred, from the suggestion the hypothetical police officer would be in the same place at the same time, is fictional but then again it's still possible.

Considering no one knows the motives in this case, at this point, other than Ross Ashley, what's not speculative about any post in this thread, even if it is in defense against "guesswork"?

Post by **spot** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:26 pm

K.Snyder;1378587 wrote: Considering no one knows the motives in this case, at this point, other than Ross Ashley, what's not speculative about any post in this thread, even if it is in defense against "guesswork"?
I've just been back and red them. Nobody's speculated at all other than you.

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:45 pm

spot;1378590 wrote: I've just been back and red them. Nobody's speculated at all other than you.I presented a hypothetical scenario that makes "traffic police" more than appropriate on the campuses anywhere in this country, which is in direct defense to the idea no campus should have "traffic police" that I also find to be ludicrous.

Teachers need a means to drop their children off at day care before they go to work and the police write tickets to anyone that threatens the safety of the campus pedestrians

Post by **spot** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:01 pm

My original query/suggestion was that no private vehicles should be allowed on campus at all. The implication that there should then be no traffic police automatically follows, but it's not the cause, it's an effect.

As for shooters being safer on any campus than anywhere else except perhaps a monastery - and I'd not guarantee the monastery bit - lifting the ludicrous ban on handguns is the obvious solution. I'd take it a step further and make carrying a concealed weapon on campus a contractual obligation for all staff and students.

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:11 pm

spot;1378599 wrote: My original query/suggestion was that no private vehicles should be allowed on campus at all. The implication that there should then be no traffic police automatically follows, but it's not the cause, it's an effect.Students walking to class would be in far too much danger and would be increased in the moments before dawn.

spot;1378599 wrote:

As for shooters being safer on any campus than anywhere else except perhaps a monastery - and I'd not guarantee the monastery bit - lifting the ludicrous ban on handguns is the obvious solution. I'd take it a step further and make carrying a concealed weapon on campus a contractual obligation for all staff and students.I'd say that's true to a significant extent