My Theory On God: Narcissism (And Why Evil Exists)

MilkMoon · Post by **MilkMoon** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:49 pm

Why does evil exist? Why does God let it happen?

Many a minister, sheik, or rabbi will tell you it is because of one main reason. It is a little thing called 'free will'. According to a site called 'lavistachurchofchrist.org', the Minister there says:

"God created man to beings free to chose whether to serve God or not. God desires people who freely chose to serve Him. If God did not put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden, then there would have been no choice.

But notice that something else must also exist for man to be able to chose to follow God or to disobey Him. God had to give him a law. Without a law, no choice can exist. Right and wrong always exists, but unless we are made aware of the choice through a law, we cannot be held responsible for keeping or breaking the law. See Paul's comment on this fact in Romans 5:13. What we call sin is when a law of God is broken (seeI John 3:4).

Therefore, God put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden and He gave man a law stating that eating of its fruit would produce death. God even made it easy to keep the law. It wasn't as if the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was the only source of food nearby. God put the tree in the middle of a very large garden that contained very type of flowering and fruit producing trees. Adam and Eve had to pass by may alternatives in order to chose this one tree that was off-limits.

Why do innocent people suffer? There are a variety of answers to this question: 

1) They suffer because they are not truly innocent. All people sin (Romans 3:22) and sins have consequences. 

2) They suffer because other people sin. The consequences of sin is broader than just the one who sins. 

3) They suffer because Satan wants to bring people down (Job 1:6-12). 

4) God allows suffering to strengthen His people (Hebrews 12:4-13;James 1:2-4)."  

When taken at face value, this makes sense.

However, what will happen if we dig a little deeper?  

God gave us free will for us to choose to obey him. The angels have no other choice but to obey, which means the value of their worship is decreased. It has more value and significance to God when a species that are inherently sinners turn their backs on their very natures to worship and 'love' somebody they cannot see, hear, or otherwise sense. So what does this mean? God gave us free will so that the worship given to him would be of more value, even though he is omniscient, and knew that evil would be spawned from that free will.

In a nutshell, the atrocities happening in the world today and throughout history, were a result of God wanting an ego boost.

And if we dig even further, we'd fine something else too.   

God doesn't truly care about good, now does he? Think about it. The main point he created us - the main reason he gave us free will to make life a test -is to see how many of us would worship him (even though he's supposedly all-knowing, and would already have known how many of us would do this) , and not to see how many of us would commit good. Now, if told that God wanted to test us and see if we did good even though we are nowhere are pure as the angels, that would be proof that the main thing God cares about is us doing good.  

But that's not what he cares about.  

According to many - if not all - religious scriptures, non-believers and sinners go to hell. Nonbelievers, not 'bad' people. Sinners are not necessarily wrong-doers.   

Let's say you don't believe in God, or maybe call him by his wrong name (Yahweh instead of Allah, or Allah instead of Vishnu, or Vishnu instead of Yahweh, etc), but you are a good person with a pure heart. Are you going to heaven?

The answer is no.  

Let's say you're a sinner, because you had sex outside of marriage. However, the sex was entirely consensual. As a person, you are honest, generous, and pure-hearted, but you just like sex. Are you still a sinner?  

The answer is yes.

Now, let's turn the tables.   

You are a horrible person. You murder innocent people in the name of God. But you follow the 'right' religion, whichever one it might be. Are you still going to heaven?*  Well, why wouldn't you?  You sin, every single day. However, come Friday or Saturday or Sunday, you get down on your knees and beg God for mercy and forgiveness. Are you a sinner?  Not anymore.  You are part of the Israelite army. You attacked Midian as the Lord had commanded Moses. You captured all the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder, and burnt all the towns and villages where Midianites lived down the the ground. You gather all the captives - people and animals - and take them to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and the whole community of Israel. They go out to meet you outside the camp.*Moses is furious, he asks you why you have let the women live. He tells you to kill all the boys and and all the woman who have slept with a man. He tells you that only the young virgins may live, and that you may keep them for yourself, as your captives. Are you still a 'good' person?  

Why of course, you are only obeying God's orders, aren't you? For those of you who see nothing wrong with the above, let me ask you. Isn't adultery a major sin in the Bible, Quran, and Torah? Adultery is defined as voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a person who is not his or her spouse. Well then, didn't the men in the Israeli army commit adultery? Or were all of them unmarried too? Let's say they were. Wouldn't that be extramarital sex? Why the contradiction? Either way, I'm sure any decent person would agree that rape is nothing like consensual extramarital sex. *Does God truly care about the evil being committed here, then? Obviously not. All three religions approve of slavery and rape of slaves, don't they? And yet God strongly disapproves of things like homosexuality, or laziness. He'll have your very flesh burn for all eternity because you're gay, with no possibility of heaven, but if you're a rapist or slave-trader, there is a good chance you'll still make it to heaven.  

I think I'll be better off in hell, don't you?  

And then, you have the religious people who say 'God loves us'. If God truly loved people, he would send you to heaven based on the good you did in this world, and nothing more. Maybe the suffering you faced on this world and the way you handled it would increase your chances of getting there. Take your reward, you earned it. Here's your break, you deserve it. If you were 'bad', you stay on planet Earth, slaving away and suffering because of the wrong you committed. Having all the hurt you caused other people rebound back on you. Maybe you'll be given another chance, with a better income, a better childhood. If you still harm people, then you stay on planet Earth and have all your deeds rebound on you. If you eventually show remorse, or regret, you are forgiven. That is fair, that is merciful.  

But God doesn't work that way.

All of you who did what I told you to do, all of you who stroked my insurmountable ego, go to heaven. The rest of you, go to hell. I don't care what you did during your time on Earth. All I know is that you never prayed to me. Then religious people have the gall to come back and say 'our God is the most loving, and the most merciful'. Sending someone to hell because they didn't believe in you, hear about you, or follow you, or because their lives sucked they committed suicide, because they liked men instead of women, or because they questioned you, doesn't sound very loving or merciful. Personally, I'd sooner worship people like Princess Diana than any God in all these religions. And I'm sure lots of people would be better off doing the same.

You can argue that believers are sent to hell too. And you know what? That is exactly my problem. You say it meaning 'If you believe in God, but sin, you might still be going to hell'. I say that meaning 'If you believe in God, and don't sin, you're most likely still going to hell if you followed the wrong religion.' Nobody but Christians make it to heaven. Everybody else goes to hell. Nobody but Muslims make it to janna (heaven). Everybody else goes to jaheem (hell). How do you know which one to choose, then? 

Religion is the notion that everybody is wrong but you. The way I see it, if there's no proof you're not wrong, there's a 50/50 chance you're right. However, other religions have that 50/50 chance. Which one? Everyone is convinced their religion is the right one. But how do you prove it? It's even more difficult to decide because in most religions, you are not allowed to ask questions. You just shut up and believe. Well, what if you're shutting up and believing the wrong religion? That means you're going to hell, aren't you?  

And besides, with all the differences in thought patterns, personality, natures, cultures, and opinion, how does somebody like God - who made us with all these differences anyway - expect everybody to follow the same religion? And how come he refuses to be the least bit understanding of these differences, and difficulties with proving which religion is the genuine one. Why does he insist that those who follow the wrong religion are going to hell?  

Simple.  

Because God doesn't care about you or me, or anybody else in the planet. He doesn't care about good, or about love or mercy, or justice. The same reason evil exists, the same reason he sends good people to hell, the same reason he condones so much violence, is the same reason he made this world in the first place.  

It's because the only thing God cares about, is himself.  

And that is all. 

PS: If any of you have any answers or explanations, I promise I am willing to hear them. And though I might have appeared disrespectful in this post (and I apologize for that) I will respond to you with respect. I will not talk down to you, judge you, or berate you based on your religion. It is God I am mad at, not necessarily his followers. Although I might have a word or two to say to those religious extremists...

Post by **spot** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:19 pm

Oddly enough we have a member here who published a book on this, Evil, Anger, and God: A Biblical Pastoral Study by Professor Milton Crum. He works through the implications of an external all-powerful Creator God causing catastrophic suffering and uses the word "evil" quite often. You might like to find a copy and compare your conclusions.

koan · Post by **koan** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:27 pm

There's also another book called "Escape From Evil" by Ernest Becker that considers all aspects of why people are religious and what it does to calm our anxiety. It also covers narcissism.

eraser · Post by **eraser** » Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:49 am

If God doesn't exist, who do you blame?

MilkMoon · Post by **MilkMoon** » Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:20 am

eraser;1370124 wrote: If God doesn't exist, who do you blame?

I'm not saying he doesn't exist. I do believe in God, but not the one religious scriptures describe. I hope that God is merciful and loving, but the God in all these 'holy' books is anything but that. Which is exactly my point. I will read the books referenced to me by the other two people who previously commented, and I hope that I am proven wrong.

Post by **spot** » Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:00 pm

The language of your first post uses an ultra-literalist Bible interpretation of God-out-there, and God-out-there is invariably evil owing to His absolute power and refusal to help, regardless of His purpose or ultimate intentions. God-within doesn't have that unforgivable aspect and, for good measure, Biblical inerrancy is no longer a block to interpreting the Bible. Literalists rely solely on their belief in something which behaves diabolically but which dogma demands they worship uncritically. Experiential Christians live life where their faith takes them and treat worship as an outmoded Old Testament priestly practise with as much current applicability as burnt offerings on an altar. Some Christian practise is in dire need of a purge.

Delorean · Post by **Delorean** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 12:09 am

Wow. I like this post.This is the reason I don't believe in or have faith in a god. I would like the ability to memorise it and recite it to the next religious callers that knock on my door. Although, the last time they came they left of their own accord because I had too many contradictions to everything they told me.

I've often wondered, if indeed there was a god, why on earth people would want to worship such an unmerciful entity. Look at the state of the world, wars in his name, famine, disease, evil in the most vilest forms. Why does he not come down here and sort it all out? If I neglected my children, like god does his, I'd have welfare at my door pretty quickly. Why is he letting his creations go to ruin?

There are so many variables on how to get to heaven, is anyone truly likely to get there at all anyway? Why spend your life trying and missing out on the fun stuff when you'll probably not get there at all anyway? I'm already doomed, I'm an unwed mother and have broken at least half of the 10 commandments. So no matter how much good I do now, I'm not getting to heaven, right? Doesn't really encourage us to be good now does it? Maybe if I slew a few sinners in gods name it might pave my way. If heaven's going to be full of vile, murderous extremists, I think I'd much prefer to take my chances downstairs where all the good people are going.

Post by **spot** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 4:16 am

You get doorstepped in Tasmania by fundamentalists? I thought that's why people went there in the first place, to get away from antisocial nuisances like those.

I saw an entire program about Tasmanian Devils (note I'm nominally on topic still), they appeared to be very noisy.

Delorean · Post by **Delorean** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 6:37 am

spot;1370317 wrote: You get doorstepped in Tasmania by fundamentalists? I thought that's why people went there in the first place, to get away from antisocial nuisances like those.

I saw an entire program about Tasmanian Devils (note I'm nominally on topic still), they appeared to be very noisy.

Yeah, just like me, they make a lot of noise that means very little. They're also quite cute. Which is where the similarity ends.

littleCJelkton · Post by **littleCJelkton** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 6:55 am

eraser;1370124 wrote: If God doesn't exist, who do you blame?

Yourself

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:16 pm

I hope God is God and power hungry people have distorted Him. The Papacy is a classic example of this.

I hope Jesus was right and God is ultimate goodness.

I hope. I don't know and I have little faith.

I AM certain that expecting God to interfere to sort out our problems is worse than futile.

Whether God exists or not, this world is up to us. And we've got a very challenging 100 years or so to deal with.

MilkMoon · Post by **MilkMoon** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 3:19 pm

Delorean;1370311 wrote: Wow. I like this post.This is the reason I don't believe in or have faith in a god. I would like the ability to memorise it and recite it to the next religious callers that knock on my door. Although, the last time they came they left of their own accord because I had too many contradictions to everything they told me.

I've often wondered, if indeed there was a god, why on earth people would want to worship such an unmerciful entity. Look at the state of the world, wars in his name, famine, disease, evil in the most vilest forms. Why does he not come down here and sort it all out? If I neglected my children, like god does his, I'd have welfare at my door pretty quickly. Why is he letting his creations go to ruin?

There are so many variables on how to get to heaven, is anyone truly likely to get there at all anyway? Why spend your life trying and missing out on the fun stuff when you'll probably not get there at all anyway? I'm already doomed, I'm an unwed mother and have broken at least half of the 10 commandments. So no matter how much good I do now, I'm not getting to heaven, right? Doesn't really encourage us to be good now does it? Maybe if I slew a few sinners in gods name it might pave my way. If heaven's going to be full of vile, murderous extremists, I think I'd much prefer to take my chances downstairs where all the good people are going.

Thank you for the comment. I'm glad to hear you liked it. I used the children argument too once, against my parents, who are fundamentalist Muslims. You may or may not find this hard to believe, but I am 15, and therefore I still live with them and argue with them on a semi-daily basis. They remain as stubborn as ever. What can you expect from religious people? The most advanced science and technology won't impress them. They'd rather be impressed when 'God' stops something bad happening to them, or makes something good happen to them, even though it was obviously just chance.

As I said "I think I'll be better off in hell, wouldn't you?". I fully agree with you. And not only would people like you and me be better off in hell, but most likely all our friends would be there too, as somebody once told me.

Either way, I hope I get to meet you in hell, rather than go to heaven and meet Usama Bin Laden or some pedophile priest. Look forward to seeing you

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:30 am

I hope you don't find yourself estranged from your parents because you don't share their beliefs. Religion is one of the things that can make a parent turn their back on their children and reject them from the family for leaving the faith - I know several catholic/protestant couples where one or the other and sometimes both were rejected by their parents for marrying in to the "wrong" religion. They might have later on come to terms with it and accept the relationship but even so. Time heals all wounds they say but those families cause are the hardest to get over.

Delorean · Post by **Delorean** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:49 am

MilkMoon;1371609 wrote: Thank you for the comment. I'm glad to hear you liked it. I used the children argument too once, against my parents, who are fundamentalist Muslims. You may or may not find this hard to believe, but I am 15, and therefore I still live with them and argue with them on a semi-daily basis. They remain as stubborn as ever. What can you expect from religious people? The most advanced science and technology won't impress them. They'd rather be impressed when 'God' stops something bad happening to them, or makes something good happen to them, even though it was obviously just chance.

As I said "I think I'll be better off in hell, wouldn't you?". I fully agree with you. And not only would people like you and me be better off in hell, but most likely all our friends would be there too, as somebody once told me.

Either way, I hope I get to meet you in hell, rather than go to heaven and meet Usama Bin Laden or some pedophile priest. Look forward to seeing you

I find it unusual that children from a very religious family would question the how's and why's of their religion. It must be very difficult for you to feel like you belong, and also frustrating that you can't get anyone to see things from your point of view. Might I ask what made you begin to question your/your family's faith?

In many countries, religion is a dominating aspect of life, so I can see why generation after generation follows the same faiths and lifestyle. Here in Australia there is no one religion everyone follows, there is quite a mix of many religions or quite often none. I wasn't brought up in a religious family, and all religion I was taught outside the family was questioned by my father then later in life I began to see things from "outside the box" for lack of a better phrase, and began asking myself some of the questions I mentioned in my previous post.

I am sending my son to a private christian school next year because the education at these schools is significantly better than at state schools. I know I'm going to struggle with the religious aspect of his education. I think the teachings from the bible are great and will only make him a better person but I don't see the bible as anything other than fictional stories to teach us morals not unlike Aesop's Fables. I don't know what I'll tell him when he starts asking questions, I guess I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.

Yes, I think we'll get along fine, I shall look forward to meeting you downstairs, though not too soon

MilkMoon · Post by **MilkMoon** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 3:56 am

gmc;1371626 wrote: I hope you don't find yourself estranged from your parents because you don't share their beliefs. Religion is one of the things that can make a parent turn their back on their children and reject them from the family for leaving the faith - I know several catholic/protestant couples where one or the other and sometimes both were rejected by their parents for marrying in to the "wrong" religion. They might have later on come to terms with it and accept the relationship but even so. Time heals all wounds they say but those families cause are the hardest to get over.

This is another problem I have with religion. It's supposed to spread love, acceptance, and peace. Instead it encourages hate, violence, and rejection. I don't want to be estranged from them, so though I argue from time to time, I argue in a way that makes it look like I have a few problems with the religion, but still follow it. They don't know I've already drifted away from that island. I don't like lying to them, but what else can I do?

MilkMoon · Post by **MilkMoon** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:24 am

Delorean;1371632 wrote: I find it unusual that children from a very religious family would question the how's and why's of their religion. It must be very difficult for you to feel like you belong, and also frustrating that you can't get anyone to see things from your point of view. Might I ask what made you begin to question your/your family's faith?

In many countries, religion is a dominating aspect of life, so I can see why generation after generation follows the same faiths and lifestyle. Here in Australia there is no one religion everyone follows, there is quite a mix of many religions or quite often none. I wasn't brought up in a religious family, and all religion I was taught outside the family was questioned by my father then later in life I began to see things from "outside the box" for lack of a better phrase, and began asking myself some of the questions I mentioned in my previous post.

I am sending my son to a private christian school next year because the education at these schools is significantly better than at state schools. I know I'm going to struggle with the religious aspect of his education. I think the teachings from the bible are great and will only make him a better person but I don't see the bible as anything other than fictional stories to teach us morals not unlike Aesop's Fables. I don't know what I'll tell him when he starts asking questions, I guess I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.

Yes, I think we'll get along fine, I shall look forward to meeting you downstairs, though not too soon

It was a very gradual build up, to be honest. When I was younger - aka, before I hit puberty - we weren't taught about rape, homosexuality, slavery, adultery, etc. So though there were a few things that I tried not to think to deeply about or just disregarded because they sounded utterly ridiculous (I mean please, crying trees and talking rocks? Be serious) I was still very young. However, things did upset me at that age. I distinctly remember coming home to my mother way back when I was only seven years old, crying hysterically, then proceeding to have nightmares at night because I was told that one of my best friends and all her family were going to hell, because she wasn't a Muslim. But I can tell you, she and her family were better people than all of the other Muslims I'd met combined.

So like I said, when I hit puberty, then I was bombarded with all kinds of crap nobody could hide from me any longer. Time went on, and at first it was 'I don't like that. It must be wrong', or 'I'm sure they misinterpreted that', but then it slowly developed until I finally said 'This is bullshit. I don't want to read this anymore, and I'm not letting this rule my life.' I guess it is unusual, but I've always been told I have a really inquisitive mind. All the answers to my questions only led to more questions, and when those couldn't be answered I'd get angry and frustrated and disappointed. All those emotions eventually find their breaking point. And the worst part was that nobody wanted me to question anyway. 'Just shut up and believe' or 'If you question you'll have doubts'. I was even told 'Don't read too much, you might become an atheist'.

That to me was very suspicious. If this is really the 'truth', why are you so afraid of me digging deeper? What are you afraid I'll find? 'Don't think too much don't read too much'. So is the point of this religion ignorance then? I'm naturally a thinker, and there were times when I couldn't get to sleep at night. I eventually found my answer. I think you can guess what it is.

My point is that the questioning was always there. The lack of reasonable answers eventually made me turn away completely. And I never had strong faith anyway. I used to skip prayers a lot, even when I was only 12 and hadn't heard all the more serious things yet.

I agree about the stories bit, but I can't agree that the Bible has good teachings. I'm obviously more familiar with the Quran than the Bible, but I think the most important quality to learn or teach is compassion and acceptance. I think religious scriptures encourage prejudice and discrimination, and are anything but merciful. Here's a link you can check out: wwwDOTevilbibleDOTcom/Evil%20Bible%20Quotes.htm

(just replace the 'DOT' with an actual '.' I don't think the forum allows links)

However, I wish you all the best for your son. Getting a good education would be the greater good in this situation. And religious schools would most likely focus on the good teachings to keep people from turning away...I think.

If you don't mind my asking, what is your stand against religion then? You mentioned that you ask questions, but are you an atheist, agnostic...or are you unsure? I won't judge you, obviously.

Oh no, obviously not. I hope you live a long and happy life before that happens.

MilkMoon · Post by **MilkMoon** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:45 am

PS: My mom is liberal, and she sowed the seeds of many of my thoughts now. Animal abuse, women's rights, equality, etc. But she never pushed it as far as I did. I have her to thank for most of my thoughts and for my open-mindedness. The credit goes to her, as I only built up on it. I think she's a little scared now, and I feel really guilty about it. I don't want her to be scared. I want her to break free too, and do all the thing she wants to do. It's my dad who's the problem. He truly cares about us, his kids, and wouldn't dare hit my mother, but he has a lot of messed up things instilled in him that he won't let go. He's the kind of man who thinks God knows better than us and that questioning Islam will send you to hell, so he believes a lot of things he's told by it or by his parents. Slavery, rape, domestic violence, prejudice to non-Muslims, hell, homophobia, the whole deal, basically. Sex outside of marriage and rape are the same thing for him. And as far as he's concerned, women enjoy being slaves.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 1:28 pm

MilkMoon;1371729 wrote: PS: My mom is liberal, and she sowed the seeds of many of my thoughts now. Animal abuse, women's rights, equality, etc. But she never pushed it as far as I did. I have her to thank for most of my thoughts and for my open-mindedness. The credit goes to her, as I only built up on it. I think she's a little scared now, and I feel really guilty about it. I don't want her to be scared. I want her to break free too, and do all the thing she wants to do. It's my dad who's the problem. He truly cares about us, his kids, and wouldn't dare hit my mother, but he has a lot of messed up things instilled in him that he won't let go. He's the kind of man who thinks God knows better than us and that questioning Islam will send you to hell, so he believes a lot of things he's told by it or by his parents. Slavery, rape, domestic violence, prejudice to non-Muslims, hell, homophobia, the whole deal, basically. Sex outside of marriage and rape are the same thing for him. And as far as he's concerned, women enjoy being slaves.

You have my sympathy. Hard as it may be you might find that at some point in the future you will have to walk away for your own peace of mind rather than keep your family happy. Eventually you start to see your parents as people as well as parents you don't want to offend. Christian sects can be just as bloody minded and prejudiced as any islamic one.

MilkMoon · Post by **MilkMoon** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:30 am

gmc;1371766 wrote: You have my sympathy. Hard as it may be you might find that at some point in the future you will have to walk away for your own peace of mind rather than keep your family happy. Eventually you start to see your parents as people as well as parents you don't want to offend. Christian sects can be just as bloody minded and prejudiced as any islamic one.

Thank you for your comment, and for your encouragement. Oddly enough, I have been thinking about that a lot recently, and I'm pretty sure that's where I'm headed. Even if they don't agree, I'm forming a plan. I'm serious about my career and future. And when I get married (if I do) it will be because I found and choose this person on my own, even if Islam doesn't let women marry non-muslims. I don't believe in or follow religious doctrines, and I'm not letting any control my life. You're right of course, I'm sure it will be hard, but I'm not going to waste away my life dreaming about what could have been and all the things I'm missing out on...

Delorean · Post by **Delorean** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:22 am

MilkMoon;1371639 wrote:

If you don't mind my asking, what is your stand against religion then? You mentioned that you ask questions, but are you an atheist, agnostic...or are you unsure? I won't judge you, obviously.

I guess I could be considered an atheist. I find it difficult to believe that everything came about as it was stated in the bible and that there is an all-loving god when clearly if there is one he doesn't appear to give two hoots about what happens to us. I wish I could believe like others do because that faith does seem to help a lot of people get by but there are too many things that don't add up, as well as all the things you mentioned in your OP.

MilkMoon · Post by **MilkMoon** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 4:17 am

Delorean;1371810 wrote: I guess I could be considered an atheist. I find it difficult to believe that everything came about as it was stated in the bible and that there is an all-loving god when clearly if there is one he doesn't appear to give two hoots about what happens to us. I wish I could believe like others do because that faith does seem to help a lot of people get by but there are too many things that don't add up, as well as all the things you mentioned in your OP.

I agree. It would be nice to believe that there's this great power that's on your side, that's keeping score of the good you do and will eventually return it back to you. But like you said, since too many things don't add up, it just seems like many of the believers might just be in denial. And then there's the concept of death, whether it's yours or your loved one's. How can we face that knowing that there's nothing more, that's it's the end, and that death will just be the loss of consciousness, like trying remember what it was like before you were born...

Maybe there is no God, but it's easier to believe that I'm misunderstanding something or just missing out on the bigger picture, and that we're here for a reason. That someone's keeping score, helping us through our suffering and increasing our reward because of it, and that this world is a just a short test. It's easier to hope that someone's going to give us a gold star on our homework at the end of the day. It might just be a pathetic attempt to make things look better. But the way I see it, as long as you use your head and refuse to blindly follow a bunch of nonsense, and as long as you still try to be the best person you can be, then it doesn't really matter what you do to help you get through life. Even if it's believing in fairies. Lol.

MilkMoon · Post by **MilkMoon** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 4:20 am

PS: You said you found it difficult to believe that everything came about the way it did in the Bible, but do you believe that there's a higher power, or something after death at all? I know for many this is a personal question, and I hope I'm not offending you, but this is just out of curiosity.

Adstar · Post by **Adstar** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 6:00 am

Hello mikemoon. I read your first post and a few at the end of the thread. Only just joined the forum so i thought i would share some thoughts on your thoughts. Oh i am a Christian by the way. Also I can only reply to your points with my personal beliefs. So please deal with me as me. Not as some kind of preconceived religious construct you may have built up over the years,

MilkMoon;1370032 wrote: Why does evil exist? Why does God let it happen?

Many a minister, sheik, or rabbi will tell you it is because of one main reason. It is a little thing called 'free will'. According to a site called 'lavistachurchofchrist.org', the Minister there says:

"God created man to beings free to chose whether to serve God or not. God desires people who freely chose to serve Him. If God did not put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden, then there would have been no choice.

I believe free will is essential to a being otherwise one is just a zombie automation. With it comes the ability to accept the Will of God or Reject it. But i also believe that it is too human-centric to see that as the only reason evil is in the world. People seem to have a basic foundational belief that Gods main game is this creation we now exists in. They never consider the fact that this could be wrong. The Bible strongly suggests a prior angelic rebellion before humanity joined the rebellion. For in the story of genesis satan first enticed the humans to procure the knowledge of good and evil against the will of God. So satan was in rebellion before mankind.

It may well be that our creation was in response to the original luciferian rebellion.

But notice that something else must also exist for man to be able to chose to follow God or to disobey Him. God had to give him a law. Without a law, no choice can exist. Right and wrong always exists, but unless we are made aware of the choice through a law, we cannot be held responsible for keeping or breaking the law. See Paul's comment on this fact in Romans 5:13. What we call sin is when a law of God is broken (seeI John 3:4).

I agree.

Therefore, God put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden and He gave man a law stating that eating of its fruit would produce death. God even made it easy to keep the law. It wasn't as if the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was the only source of food nearby. God put the tree in the middle of a very large garden that contained very type of flowering and fruit producing trees. Adam and Eve had to pass by may alternatives in order to chose this one tree that was off-limits.

Yep.

Why do innocent people suffer? There are a variety of answers to this question: 

1) They suffer because they are not truly innocent. All people sin (Romans 3:22) and sins have consequences. 

2) They suffer because other people sin. The consequences of sin is broader than just the one who sins. 

3) They suffer because Satan wants to bring people down (Job 1:6-12). 

4) God allows suffering to strengthen His people (Hebrews 12:4-13;James 1:2-4)."  

Well i believe suffering is the "natural" outcome of existing in a fallen/sabotaged creation. Once you are born, suffering can come from others, nature and oneself. Until God restores creation back to it's non-sabotaged state this will continue. So the knowledge of good and evil in the hands of humanity will always bring suffering because people have the option to chose evil. Many people are tempted to use evil, it can be an effective tool to get what one wants in this existence.

As to your other points suffering can make us stronger or teach us perseverance but that is mostly about how we chose to react to suffering.

Not sure satan uses suffering to bring people down. He mostly rewards people in this world for joining him. But of coerce even the ones that join him still experience suffering.

Little ones are innocent according to the Bible so while everyone who lives past the age of innocence takes on the knowledge of good and evil and therefore are no longer innocent, there is a time of innocence before this.

However, what will happen if we dig a little deeper?  

God gave us free will for us to choose to obey him. The angels have no other choice but to obey, which means the value of their worship is decreased.

I read one of your last posts in this thread and i believe you said your father was a muslim, is that correct? Maybe this is why you have come to this conclusion. But in the Bible it is clear the angels can and will rebel against God. Lucifer/satan was an angel. The bible warns Christians not to accept the messages of angels if they give a message that is contrary to the message of Jesus. The Bible states that in the end one third of the angels will fight against the loyal angels of God and they will lose and be cast out of heaven to earth. So while the quran may teach that angels have no free will, the Bible definitely teaches that angels do have free will.

It has more value and significance to God when a species that are inherently sinners turn their backs on their very natures to worship and 'love' somebody they cannot see, hear, or otherwise sense. So what does this mean? God gave us free will so that the worship given to him would be of more value, even though he is omniscient, and knew that evil would be spawned from that free will.

Well as a Christian i am a sinner. We can disagree with our current state of being but we cannot turn our backs on it and become perfect sinless beings. Secondly the Worship God wants according to the bible is worship in truth. That is to believe and embrace the love of the truth. That is far more valuable that any form of worship with words or song or trained physical movements.

In a nutshell, the atrocities happening in the world today and throughout history, were a result of God wanting an ego boost.

That is a very human emotion you are putting on God there. Why would God suffer from ego? He is a perfect being with absolute power. Think about it, the only people who suffer from ego are people who need to be reassured that they are valuable because deep down inside their conscience they doubt their value. Do you really think God doubts His value?

And if we dig even further, we'd fine something else too.   

God doesn't truly care about good, now does he? Think about it. The main point he created us - the main reason he gave us free will to make life a test -is to see how many of us would worship him (even though he's supposedly all-knowing, and would already have known how many of us would do this)

Yes He has foreknowledge of all History and all our lives so it is not a test He needs to do to find out something. We of course live in the this universe and it's universe time so for us it is a test.

, and not to see how many of us would commit good. Now, if told that God wanted to test us and see if we did good even though we are nowhere are pure as the angels, that would be proof that the main thing God cares about is us doing good.  

Well according to the Christian Bible doing good is not the main thing God requires of us. The main requirement is for man to believe and trust God. The Bible declares that all our good deeds are as filthy rags compared to the perfection of God and that no good deed will earn one eternity with God. Maybe again here you are mixing up the Bible with the quran.

But that's not what he cares about.  

According to many - if not all - religious scriptures, non-believers and sinners go to hell. Nonbelievers, not 'bad' people. Sinners are not necessarily wrong-doers.   

People who reject the Atonement of the Messiah Jesus for their sins are the ones who will have eternity in the lake of fire. This is the message from the Bible.

Let's say you don't believe in God, or maybe call him by his wrong name (Yahweh instead of Allah, or Allah instead of Vishnu, or Vishnu instead of Yahweh, etc), but you are a good person with a pure heart. Are you going to heaven?

The answer is no.  

I don't think having his name wrong will cause one to be damned. But according to the Bible No man is Good. Only God is good.

While it is true that we call some people good and other people bad humans measure people on a Relative scale. If a person does more good or mostly good we call them good, if a person does more bad or mostly bad we call them bad or worse. But this is not how God measures things. Gods measure is Absolute. One is either Perfect (good) or Imperfect (not good) with God. So all human beings are Not good according to Gods measure. So the only way for humans to be accounted acceptable to exist in eternity in a perfect existence is if they are forgiven their badness and have it covered and have their faulty natures removed. This is the message of grace/forgiveness that Christianity gives. Eternity with God is obtained by being forgiven ones short comings. Not by working to make sure your good deeds score out points your bad deeds score, which is what most religions teach.

Let's say you're a sinner, because you had sex outside of marriage. However, the sex was entirely consensual. As a person, you are honest, generous, and pure-hearted, but you just like sex. Are you still a sinner?  

The answer is yes.

I disagree with that "pure-hearted" no one is pure. and no one is honest without fault, no one is generous without fault. But as to your main point adultery is against the will of God.

Now, let's turn the tables.   

You are a horrible person. You murder innocent people in the name of God. But you follow the 'right' religion, whichever one it might be. Are you still going to heaven?*  Well, why wouldn't you?  You sin, every single day. However, come Friday or Saturday or Sunday, you get down on your knees and beg God for mercy and forgiveness. Are you a sinner?  Not anymore.  

Well murdering innocents is against the will of God. So how could such a person be following the right religion?

And I believe once one believes that Jesus has provided atonement for their sins they are forgiven, no need to beg God for mercy on friday saturday or sunday.

You are part of the Israelite army. You attacked Midian as the Lord had commanded Moses. You captured all the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder, and burnt all the towns and villages where Midianites lived down the the ground. You gather all the captives - people and animals - and take them to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and the whole community of Israel. They go out to meet you outside the camp.*Moses is furious, he asks you why you have let the women live. He tells you to kill all the boys and and all the woman who have slept with a man. He tells you that only the young virgins may live, and that you may keep them for yourself, as your captives. Are you still a 'good' person?  

Well as a Christian i believe that no man is good.

Why of course, you are only obeying God's orders, aren't you? For those of you who see nothing wrong with the above, let me ask you. Isn't adultery a major sin in the Bible, Quran, and Torah?

Yes it is in the Bible, which contains the Torah.

Adultery is defined as voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a person who is not his or her spouse. Well then, didn't the men in the Israeli army commit adultery? Or were all of them unmarried too? Let's say they were. Wouldn't that be extramarital sex? Why the contradiction?

They may have. Where does it say they did?

Either way, I'm sure any decent person would agree that rape is nothing like consensual extramarital sex.

Yes rape is a sin.

*Does God truly care about the evil being committed here, then? Obviously not.

Once again where does it say they committed adultery or they raped?

All three religions approve of slavery and rape of slaves, don't they?

Well i cannot talk for islam, But i do not think this is correct for Torah based Judaism and it is definitely not supported by Christianity.

And yet God strongly disapproves of things like homosexuality, or laziness. He'll have your very flesh burn for all eternity because you're gay, with no possibility of heaven, but if you're a rapist or slave-trader, there is a good chance you'll still make it to heaven.  

No. If that where the case all sinners would burn for all eternity. So we would all burn. So now it is the rejection of Gods forgiveness through the atonement of the Messiah Jesus that causes one to burn for eternity. Not sin.

I think I'll be better off in hell, don't you?  

No.

And then, you have the religious people who say 'God loves us'. If God truly loved people, he would send you to heaven based on the good you did in this world, and nothing more.

And what good deed is enough payment for eternity in a perfect paradise? None.

Maybe the suffering you faced on this world and the way you handled it would increase your chances of getting there. Take your reward, you earned it.

Here again you see it as payment. It is not. It is a Gift. A true Gift, one that is never paid for. All one needs to do is accept it. How easy is that.

Here's your break, you deserve it. If you were 'bad', you stay on planet Earth, slaving away and suffering because of the wrong you committed. Having all the hurt you caused other people rebound back on you. Maybe you'll be given another chance, with a better income, a better childhood. If you still harm people, then you stay on planet Earth and have all your deeds rebound on you. If you eventually show remorse, or regret, you are forgiven. That is fair, that is merciful.  

Well Christian scriptures state that God is longsuffering towards the world in it's current state for the purpose of fulfilling His eternal plan, But after that is done He will not put up with an imperfect creation.

All of you who did what I told you to do, all of you who stroked my insurmountable ego, go to heaven. The rest of you, go to hell. I don't care what you did during your time on Earth. All I know is that you never prayed to me. Then religious people have the gall to come back and say 'our God is the most loving, and the most merciful'. Sending someone to hell because they didn't believe in you, hear about you, or follow you, or because their lives sucked they committed suicide, because they liked men instead of women, or because they questioned you, doesn't sound very loving or merciful. Personally, I'd sooner worship people like Princess Diana than any God in all these religions. And I'm sure lots of people would be better off doing the same.

For a Christian it is about accepting the will of God, believing Him. Trusting Him. It is no longer about sin.

You can argue that believers are sent to hell too. And you know what? That is exactly my problem. You say it meaning 'If you believe in God, but sin, you might still be going to hell'. I say that meaning 'If you believe in God, and don't sin, you're most likely still going to hell if you followed the wrong religion.' Nobody but Christians make it to heaven. Everybody else goes to hell. Nobody but Muslims make it to janna (heaven). Everybody else goes to jaheem (hell). How do you know which one to choose, then? 

Well that’s where your free will choice comes into play. People embrace what they sense is right and reject what they sense is wrong. If the God of Abraham exists and He has given a Message of His will, then rejecting that Message is rejecting Gods will. In the end the free will response of people to the messages either Redeems them or condemns them. So let each and every message attract whom it shall attract.

Religion is the notion that everybody is wrong but you. The way I see it, if there's no proof you're not wrong, there's a 50/50 chance you're right. However, other religions have that 50/50 chance. Which one? Everyone is convinced their religion is the right one. But how do you prove it? It's even more difficult to decide because in most religions, you are not allowed to ask questions. You just shut up and believe. Well, what if you're shutting up and believing the wrong religion? That means you're going to hell, aren't you?  

There is no chance involved. Either one message is right and the other is wrong or all messages are wrong. The messages are all out there for you to see, to consider, to embrace or reject. Proof? The proof for believers is in the Message. Not some scientific measurable proof, but a convicting, moral, emotional, moving truth and resonates within their being as true. Partly we understand partly we don't that’s where Faith/trust comes into the equation.

And besides, with all the differences in thought patterns, personality, natures, cultures, and opinion, how does somebody like God - who made us with all these differences anyway - expect everybody to follow the same religion? And how come he refuses to be the least bit understanding of these differences, and difficulties with proving which religion is the genuine one. Why does he insist that those who follow the wrong religion are going to hell?  

Simple.  

Not sure He does. I believe it is the rejection of Gods truth that causes one to have eternity in the lake of fire. If someone has never heard the truth then it cannot be said that they have rejected the truth, can it.

Because God doesn't care about you or me, or anybody else in the planet. He doesn't care about good, or about love or mercy, or justice. The same reason evil exists, the same reason he sends good people to hell, the same reason he condones so much violence, is the same reason he made this world in the first place.  

It's because the only thing God cares about, is himself.  

And that is all. 

I believe He came down to earth in the flesh and suffered a horrible death to Redeem all whom would embrace the love of His truth. He went through hell on earth to save me. I love His beatitudes His message . Full of wisdom and love. But others declare it a stumbling stone and for others yet it is foolishness. But it is for me the Message that has given me true peace within, confidence and assurance.

PS: If any of you have any answers or explanations, I promise I am willing to hear them. And though I might have appeared disrespectful in this post (and I apologize for that) I will respond to you with respect. I will not talk down to you, judge you, or berate you based on your religion. It is God I am mad at, not necessarily his followers. Although I might have a word or two to say to those religious extremists...

Well your response is your free will desire to give. You own your response. You can choose to respond as your being desires.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

MilkMoon · Post by **MilkMoon** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:31 pm

Hello mikemoon. I read your first post and a few at the end of the thread. Only just joined the forum so i thought i would share some thoughts on your thoughts.

It's MilkMoon, actually. Not a problem, just thought I should point it out. It's the name of the full moon in May.

Oh i am a Christian by the way. Also I can only reply to your points with my personal beliefs. So please deal with me as me. Not as some kind of preconceived religious construct you may have built up over the years

I do not judge people before I have even met them, and as I mentioned at the end of my first post, as long as you answer respectfully I will respond to you in kind, even if you tell me you are a Satanist. I'd read the Satanic bible and it's wasn't too bad anyway. Lots of intelligence there, although I honestly don't like hedonistic religions. Even though the Satanic bible was the only religious scripture to specifically prohibit rape and child abuse. Anyway, back to the current subject.

I believe free will is essential to a being otherwise one is just a zombie automation. With it comes the ability to accept the Will of God or Reject it.

I think the world would be a better place if we were just zombie automations, or not existent at all. That way, nobody gets hurt at the hands of another person, and no wrong is committed. If we didn't have free will, we would have no choice but to be good, and therefore be angelic. Unfortunately, we don't have that, and as a result there are more human demons on this Earth than angels.

But i also believe that it is too human-centric to see that as the only reason evil is in the world. People seem to have a basic foundational belief that Gods main game is this creation we now exists in. They never consider the fact that this could be wrong.

Evil is in the world because people have a choice whether to do good or bad. You have a choice whether to lie or tell the truth, for example, even if the former is easier to do.

The Bible strongly suggests a prior angelic rebellion before humanity joined the rebellion. For in the story of genesis satan first enticed the humans to procure the knowledge of good and evil against the will of God. So satan was in rebellion before mankind.

It may well be that our creation was in response to the original luciferian rebellion.

I do know that, I have researched my facts. I have an argument for that as well, from a pretty good website I frequently use. "Satan was first portrayed as one of the many sons of God and is a member of God's court who serves as man's accuser in the Old Testament book of Job. In the Old Testament, Satan is never defined as a rebel angel or the 'Devil'. Satan never appears in Genesis as many Christians claim. Not once. The Christian version of Satan most likely evolved from the Persian concept of duralism, which defined good and evil in terms of a good 'God', and his arch enemy the 'Devil'. The Old Testament Bible character called Satan then became the Devil as the New Testament Bible writers adopted the Persian dualism concept into their beliefs. The character called Satan was merely one of God's tools which he uses to carry out various functions in his little drama on Earth, and not a rebel angel."

Well i believe suffering is the "natural" outcome of existing in a fallen/sabotaged creation. Once you are born, suffering can come from others, nature and oneself. Until God restores creation back to it's non-sabotaged state this will continue.

So you're saying that it is only natural for people to suffer for the sins of another? How is that just? Why can't people take responsibility for their own actions?

So the knowledge of good and evil in the hands of humanity will always bring suffering because people have the option to chose evil. Many people are tempted to use evil, it can be an effective tool to get what one wants in this existence.

I am aware of this. I know evil exists because people have the option. My question was why God created us - with or without free will - knowing we would commit so much evil.

As to your other points suffering can make us stronger or teach us perseverance but that is mostly about how we chose to react to suffering.

Not sure satan uses suffering to bring people down. He mostly rewards people in this world for joining him.

Suffering can make you stronger depending on the degree. Minor to mild suffering can make you stronger. More intense suffering (war, loss, sexual abuse, poverty, etc) can bring you depression, PTSD, mental, health, and emotional disorders, etc. Severe suffering can even cause insanity. I know a woman who went completely insane after losing all her five children, for example. War veterans suffer from Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder for years, and victims of child sexual abuse get flashbacks and emotional disorders for decades afterwards.

So I disagree.

And since when does he reward his followers or answer their prayers?

But of coerce even the ones that join him still experience suffering.

And the ones who join God still experience suffering, all the time. You might say I have no right to question God, but if believing in him made a visible difference, and maybe eased your suffering eventually, perhaps more people would believe. Instead people believer and pray for years and years and nothing ever gets better, so it's only natural they start losing their faith.

Little ones are innocent according to the Bible so while everyone who lives past the age of innocence takes on the knowledge of good and evil and therefore are no longer innocent, there is a time of innocence before this.

Innocence, as defined by Wikipedia, is "Innocence (or guiltlessness) is a term used to indicate a lack of guilt, with respect to any kind of crime, sin, or wrongdoing. In a legal context, innocence refers to the lack of legal guilt of an individual, with respect to a crime."

Children are innocent as they cannot commit the crimes adults can, and because they are - usually - unaware of sexual matters.

While you might say that all humans are sinners, you cannot lump everyone into that category. People do make mistakes, but not all are in the same degree, or about the same thing. You cannot say that everyone in jail are evil. You cannot compare somebody in there because of murder to somebody in there because they did not pay their credit card debt. The two are nowhere the same. Not to mention, lots of innocent people (aka, people who where framed for crimes they didn't commit) are sitting in jail at the present time.

Everyone's wronged, or said a little white lie now and then, but not everyone has committed a serious wrong, which makes them innocent. And even if they did make a big mistake, they might have regretted or shown remorse for it later and made sure never to repeat it again, which makes them good. Just because one has hit puberty does not mean they are automatically labeled as 'sinners'.

"Angels are creatures of good, spirits of love, and messengers of the savior Jesus Christ." - Wikipedia.

While I might have confused Islam and Christianity when typing that - and I apologize for that mistake - angels are clearly nothing like humans, even if they might have free will. It is in their natures to be good, whereas as nearly every Abrahamic religion would agree that humans are sinners by nature. This is why angels are nowhere near as bad as humans, and why they aren't all on Earth instead of heaven. The concept still applies. "The angels are represented throughout the Christian Bible as a body of spiritual beings intermediate between God and men: "You have made him (man) a little less than the angels..." (Pslams 8:4-5)"

In regards to rebellious angels and Lucifer, see my above comment.

The bible warns Christians not to accept the messages of angels if they give a message that is contrary to the message of Jesus.

So can you blame non-Christians for not believing in Jesus Christ, as they might have been taught not to accept messages if they give a message contrary to their beliefs as well?

Well as a Christian i am a sinner. We can disagree with our current state of being but we cannot turn our backs on it and become perfect sinless beings.

I agree we cannot turn our backs on our natures, but isn't that what religious people try to do? I'm never said satisfying your carnal side is a good thing - I admire people with self control (although they might be hypocrites and just act pious and Victorian, whereas they do all the same things other people do, but from under the table) - but I was explaining it in terms of why our worship might be more valuable to God than the angel's worship. People go against what they want - carnal or not - to satisfy God.

Secondly the Worship God wants according to the bible is worship in truth. That is to believe and embrace the love of the truth. That is far more valuable that any form of worship with words or song or trained physical movements.

What is truth? And if God values truth, why does he not want us to search for it? A minister I once spoke to told me that 'We do not question, we just believe in the Lord'. How do we know what the truth is? Or to phrase that better, which one is the truth? Like I said, there is no proof, so we can never be sure. And God is not sending you to heaven based on your good deeds, even if you were searching for the 'truth'.

That is a very human emotion you are putting on God there. Why would God suffer from ego? He is a perfect being with absolute power. Think about it, the only people who suffer from ego are people who need to be reassured that they are valuable because deep down inside their conscience they doubt their value. Do you really think God doubts His value?

If he is a perfect being with absolute power, why would he need - or even want - to create us to worship him? It sounds like he did that in order to feel better about himself, as there is no other reason he should create us. People say it's a 'test', yes, but why? God is omniscient, he already knows who will pass and who will fail, so why does he do it anyway? The above was a conclusion I came to. Nobody was giving me any answers, so I found one on my own, and it makes sense more than any of the one's I'd heard that mostly just avoided the original question.

Yes He has foreknowledge of all History and all our lives so it is not a test He needs to do to find out something. We of course live in the this universe and it's universe time so for us it is a test.

To find out what? I know that very few - if any - would be able to answer this, but I'm not necessarily asking you, just arguing my point, basically. He already knows everything, if he created us to find something out, that means that he does not know everything. So, why do we call him God?

Well according to the Christian Bible doing good is not the main thing God requires of us. The main requirement is for man to believe and trust God. The Bible declares that all our good deeds are as filthy rags compared to the perfection of God and that no good deed will earn one eternity with God. Maybe again here you are mixing up the Bible with the quran.

I never said that's what the Bible requires. Or the Quran. I don't think you read my post through properly. I said 'God doesn't care about good...the main point he created us...is to see how many of us would worship him... not to see how many of us would commit good...if God wanted to test us and see if we did good...that would be proof that the main thing God cares about is us doing good.

Please re-read my post to clarify things a little bit for you.

I don't think having his name wrong will cause one to be damned.

I wasn't speaking literally when I was talking about his name. Again, I think you might have misunderstood. If you call God just God, it could mean you're Christian, but calling God 'Allah' means you're Muslim. Calling him 'Yahweh' means you're Jewish, and calling him 'Vishnu' means you're Hindu.

But according to the Bible No man is Good. Only God is good.

While it is true that we call some people good and other people bad humans measure people on a Relative scale. If a person does more good or mostly good we call them good, if a person does more bad or mostly bad we call them bad or worse. But this is not how God measures things. Gods measure is Absolute. One is either Perfect (good) or Imperfect (not good) with God. So all human beings are Not good according to Gods measure. So the only way for humans to be accounted acceptable to exist in eternity in a perfect existence is if they are forgiven their badness and have it covered and have their faulty natures removed. This is the message of grace/forgiveness that Christianity gives. Eternity with God is obtained by being forgiven ones short comings. Not by working to make sure your good deeds score out points your bad deeds score, which is what most religions teach.

I've met a lot of people down here on Earth who are more 'good' than God ever was. Meaning they judge people by their actions, not by what the believe in. Meaning that they help the poor and the needy, make laws and set up organizations to make the situation in the world better, which is something God is obviously not doing.

Even the Bible is contradictory about whether God is good or not.

The LORD is a jealous God, filled with vengeance and wrath... (Nahum 1:2-8 NLT)

I don't think you can come across anybody, human or otherwise, who is jealous and filled with vengeance and wrath, and call them 'good'. I thought God was supposed to teach us forgiveness, and yet he is jealous and vengeful? It looks quite a bit like hypocrisy to me.

In his presence the mountains quake, and the hills melt

away; the earth trembles, and its people are destroyed. Who can

stand before his fierce anger? Who can survive his burning fury?

His rage blazes forth like fire, and the mountains crumble to dust in

his presence. The LORD is good. (Nahum 1:2-8 NLT)

So God causes things like natural disasters to happen and enjoys watching people get destroyed, whereas mere humans set up things like the Red Cross to help people suffering because of natural disaster. I think Henri Dunant (found of the Red Cross) is much more 'good' than God, in this case.

I disagree with that "pure-hearted" no one is pure. and no one is honest without fault, no one is generous without fault.

With all due respect, just because you or the people around you might not be, doesn't mean that there aren't pure-hearted people out there. Are you so narrow-minded as to say they aren't selfless, kind, gentle, generous, humble, compassionate, protective people out there? Sure they might have their faults, but at least they aren't 'jealous and vengeful'. Or violent...

But as to your main point adultery is against the will of God.

But murder (of non-believers, etc) isn't against his will right?

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their

fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not

seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether

small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13

NAB)

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your

beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve

other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any

other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to

the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon

him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first

raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You

shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from

the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that

place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never

do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

I never said it was adultery. Adultery would be committing fornication while the person is married. I said sex outside of marriage. While I do believe that it would be better if people waited until taking vows to sleep together (as that way it would be more serious, less negative consequences from childbirth, etc - even though this might not always be the case) I still don't understand why God would see something like this wrong and other more serious ethical topics as alright, as I mentioned in one of my previous posts.

Well murdering innocents is against the will of God. So how could such a person be following the right religion?

Now kill all the boys

and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls

who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves. - (Judges 1:21-35 NLT)

Then, with Micah's idols and his priest, the men of Dan came to the

town of Laish, whose people were peaceful and secure. They attacked

and killed all the people and burned the town to the ground. (Judges 18:27-29 NLT)

After Joshua died, the Israelites asked the LORD, "Which tribe

should attack the Canaanites first?" The LORD answered, "Judah,

for I have given them victory over the land." The leaders of Judah

said to their relatives from the tribe of Simeon, "Join with us to fight

against the Canaanites living in the territory allotted to us. Then we

will help you conquer your territory." So the men of Simeon went

with Judah. When the men of Judah attacked, the LORD gave them

victory over the Canaanites and Perizzites, and they killed ten

thousand enemy warriors at the town of Bezek....The men of Judah attacked Jerusalem and captured it,

killing all its people and setting the city on fire. (Judges 1:1-8 NLT)

Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I

have commanded you," says the LORD. "Let the battle cry be heard

in the land, a shout of great destruction". (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)

My personal favorite:

You must destroy all the nations the LORD your God hands over to

you. Show them no mercy and do not worship their gods. (Deuteronomy 7:16-24 NLT)

And didn't you say that people are only innocent when they are considered children? But God sanctions the death of male children, as well. If you don't believe me:

Numbers 31:17 (Moses) “Now therefore kill every male among the little

ones, and kill every women that hath known man by lying with him.”

Hosea 13:16 God promises to dash to pieces the infants of Samaria and

the “their women with child shall be ripped up”. Once again this god

kills the unborn, including their pregnant mothers.

How can anyone possibly God after reading that? Unless they were in denial?

And I believe once one believes that Jesus has provided atonement for their sins they are forgiven, no need to beg God for mercy on friday saturday or sunday.

So it doesn't matter what sins they committed? A murder who killed and tortured countless people will be accepted to heaven if they accept Jesus, but a gentle person who would never hurt a fly would be sent to hell for not accepting him? Again, I don't think I even want to go to heaven if I'll find people like that up there.

They may have. Where does it say they did?
Once again where does it say they committed adultery or they raped?

Again, I'm sorry, but you are not reading my post properly. Word of advice: If you ever want to provide a good argument, read the rebuttal carefully and with attention to detail. Moses said the men could keep the virgins to themselves, which means they can sleep with them. If you want more proof:

But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and

other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the

LORD your God has given you. (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

How do soldiers usually enjoy the spoils of war? They keep it to themselves. And how do soldiers 'enjoy' women during war-time? You don't have to be a genius to figure it out.

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at

the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man

who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is

not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke

the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her

to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he

must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then

takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to

sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she

may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus

21:7-11 NLT)

Something more specific, perhaps?

Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided

in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for

battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished;

half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not

be removed from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

Well i cannot talk for islam, But i do not think this is correct for Torah based Judaism and it is definitely not supported by Christianity.

Proof it is supported:

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the

foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in

your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to

your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves

like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be

treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at

the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man

who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is

not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke

the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her

to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he

must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then

takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to

sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she

may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus

21:7-11 NLT)

And what good deed is enough payment for eternity in a perfect paradise? None.
And what bad deed is enough punishment for eternity in a horrific hell? Not believing in God.

And if none of our good deeds are enough for paradise, why does anyone try anyway? And not everybody is a Christian. Does that mean that nearly (if not half) the world's population is going to hell for no reason except for believing in something other than Jesus Christ?

For a Christian it is about accepting the will of God, believing Him. Trusting Him. It is no longer about sin.

So...sin doesn't matter anymore, is that what you mean? You can sin all you want now that you're a Christian, and still make it to heaven? Sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

So let each and every message attract whom it shall attract.

That sounds very reasonable of you. But God doesn't believe that does he? Even though he knows we're all different, and that different messages would attract us.

Either one message is right and the other is wrong or all messages are wrong.

How do you prove this?

Proof? The proof for believers is in the Message. Not some scientific measurable proof, but a convicting, moral, emotional, moving truth and resonates within their being as true.

But didn't you say that 'let each and every message attract whom it shall attract'? Maybe somebody comes across a belief that offers a convincing, moral, emotional, moving truth that resonates within their being as true, but it's not Christianity. Maybe it's Buddhism. Again, why is God so intolerant of people's differences, even though he created us and would know of our differences between each other better than anybody else.

If someone has never heard the truth then it cannot be said that they have rejected the truth, can it.

I fully agree. I was talking about other religions though, not necessarily never having heard of one.

Not sure He does. I believe it is the rejection of Gods truth that causes one to have eternity in the lake of fire.

What if they heard the truth, but recognized it as lie from the way they raised, or because they were following something else at the time? Then what? Will God be understanding and forgiving? Does it say anywhere in all of his holy books that he will?

Well, no...

But it is for me the Message that has given me true peace within, confidence and assurance.

m glad to hear that religion has given you peace, confidence, and assurance. For me, it just seems like denial, since it is easier the accepting the real truth. Which is that if God exists, he has proven over the years that he couldn't care less. Obviously though, people are free to believe what they want to, as long as they're not hurting anybody or forcing their beliefs on anybody else.

Well your response is your free will desire to give. You own your response. You can choose to respond as your being desires.

This is my argument against the topic, and I have nothing against you personally. I understand that this is a sensitive issue though. Thank you for taking it in stride.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Fri Oct 07, 2011 3:17 am

Christianity is based on one girl really sticking to her story

Be careful milkmoon as the saying goes reason is the greatest enemy of faith

"Reason is the Devil's greatest whore; by nature and manner of being she is a noxious whore; she is a prostitute, the Devil's appointed whore; whore eaten by scab and leprosy who ought to be trodden under foot and destroyed, she and her wisdom ... Throw dung in her face to make her ugly. She is and she ought to be drowned in baptism... She would deserve, the wretch, to be banished to the filthiest place in the house, to the closets."

Martin Luther, Erlangen Edition v. 16, pp. 142-148

"There is on earth among all dangers no more dangerous thing than a richly endowed and adroit reason... Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed."

Martin Luther, quoted by Walter Kaufmann, The Faith of a Heretic, (Garden City, NY, Doubleday, 1963), p. 75

"Reason should be destroyed in all Christians." or indeed muslims as well and for the same end. You can believe in god what christians and islamic fundamentalists want you to do is follow their version and don;t question what god may or may not want is almost irrelevant

MilkMoon · Post by **MilkMoon** » Fri Oct 07, 2011 6:47 am

Thank you for the compliment. I pride myself on being a reasonable person. I know I said I would be respectful, but honestly, I wish I could be able to say the same about you. That was one of the most ridiculous comments I have ever heard, and trust me, I'd heard a lot. Was that really your reply to the argument I put up? I'm not stubborn, I might very well have been swayed by a good, well founded argument. Your reply just shows you have none. If that's how religious people answer the questions they are given, then it's no wonder so few people are religious nowadays. I was going to say that not questioning and just following even if it goes against reason and common sense would make us 'zombie automations', which you implied was an undesirable notion in comparison to free will, but to be honest, your reply against reason basically says that you are an unreasonable person. I don't even know why I bothered arguing with you. However, this can be a good thing, because if somebody reads this forum and sees your response to mine above, I have no doubt which side they would take. If they were being sensible, that is...

It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument. ~William G. McAdoo

The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. - Albert Einstein

Faith... must be enforced by reason... when faith becomes blind it dies. - Mohandas Gandhi

Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear. -Thomas Jefferson

Reason means truth and those who are not governed by it take the chance that someday the sunken fact will rip the bottom out of their boat. - Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.

He that cannot reason is a fool.

He that will not is a bigot.

He that dare not is a slave.

- Andrew Carnegie

A wise man is not governed by others, nor does he try to govern them; he prefers that reason alone prevail. - La Bruyère, Characters, 1688

I reject any religious doctrine that does not appeal to reason and is in conflict with morality. - Mohandas Gandhi

The most violent element in society is ignorance. - Emma Goldman

MilkMoon · Post by **MilkMoon** » Fri Oct 07, 2011 6:59 am

Oh! Sorry gmc, I mistook your username for his. I thought it was Adstar (the person above) who responded to my post, so I thought he was being serious. Now that I know it's you, I'm pretty sure you weren't being serious (I think). I apologize for that. I can't delete the post or edit it now...

Adstar · Post by **Adstar** » Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:41 am

Hello again MilkMoon. got it right this time.

I read your reply point by point. And there where a few points where you seem not to have clearly read my points. And al also know you believe i have not read your points when i replied but indeed i believe i did. I will do my best to highlight the areas where i need to restate my position. I know we are both very keen to get our message over to the other person but we both need to take the time to Read and understand what the other is saying. Also i am seeking to address you as an individual. I am making an effort not to paste a negative persona upon you or put you into some negative stereotypical box. I hope we can both strive to avoided this for the sake of calm and meaningful discussion. Ok so now let me continue with your thoughts.

MilkMoon:

[QUOTE]Adstar said:I believe free will is essential to a being otherwise one is just a zombie automation. With it comes the ability to accept the Will of God or Reject it.

I think the world would be a better place if we were just zombie automations, or not existent at all.

Well i believe if we do exist (and we do) than it is better to be a free willed true beings living in a temporary imperfect existence with the Hope of an eternal perfection then a zombie automation existing in a perfect existence. Because we really would not BE if we where zombie automations.

MilkMoon:

That way, nobody gets hurt at the hands of another person, and no wrong is committed.

I look forward to an eternal existence where things will be like this.

MilkMoon:

If we didn't have free will, we would have no choice but to be good, and therefore be angelic. Unfortunately, we don't have that, and as a result there are more human demons on this Earth than angels.

Well i have explained that i believe that angels are not perfect beings. I will post a verse in the Bible declaring such, well two verses.

Revelation 12

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Of course this is not any kind of proof for you. I am not trying to Prove there are angels in rebellion against God. But as a Christian i believe the Bible and the Prophecies of the Book of Revelation. I believe satan was once the great angel lucifer. So i cannot believe as you do that angels are perfect and cannot do evil. So this may well be a point where we shall have to agree to disagree for the time being.

Evil is in the world because people have a choice whether to do good or bad. You have a choice whether to lie or tell the truth, for example, even if the former is easier to do.

Yes, we are tempted to sin because it is often an easier way to get the result we want. We can chose sin when we do not want to face the harder immediate outcome that is sometimes attached to doing Good.

MilkMoon:

[QUOTE]The Bible strongly suggests a prior angelic rebellion before humanity joined the rebellion. For in the story of genesis satan first enticed the humans to procure the knowledge of good and evil against the will of God. So satan was in rebellion before mankind.

It may well be that our creation was in response to the original luciferian rebellion.

I do know that, I have researched my facts. I have an argument for that as well, from a pretty good website I frequently use. "Satan was first portrayed as one of the many sons of God and is a member of God's court who serves as man's accuser in the Old Testament book of Job. In the Old Testament, Satan is never defined as a rebel angel or the 'Devil'. Satan never appears in Genesis as many Christians claim.

The verses from the Book of Revelation that i have just posted above declare the "serpent of old" the one that appeared in the garden of eden in genesis is the same one "called the Devil and Satan" Now i accept you "believe" satan never appeared as the serpent in the book of genesis. But you cannot Know.

MilkMoon:

Not once. The Christian version of Satan most likely evolved from the Persian concept of duralism, which defined good and evil in terms of a good 'God', and his arch enemy the 'Devil'.

I am not a believer of dualism. I believe there is only one God, satan was an angel. Just stating that to make things clear about my belief.

MilkMoon:

The Old Testament Bible character called Satan then became the Devil as the New Testament Bible writers adopted the Persian dualism concept into their beliefs.

I don't believe the writers believed in dualism. The NT shows satan to be a deceiving angel not a deceiving God.

MilkMoon:

[QUOTE]Well i believe suffering is the "natural" outcome of existing in a fallen/sabotaged creation. Once you are born, suffering can come from others, nature and oneself. Until God restores creation back to it's non-sabotaged state this will continue.

So you're saying that it is only natural for people to suffer for the sins of another? How is that just? Why can't people take responsibility for their own actions?

Please i ask you MilkMoon not to jump ahead of my statements and declare i am saying things i have not said. There is plenty in our posts to comment on without the need to put more words and meanings into each other’s statements.

I am not declaring that suffering is good. I am declaring that it is a natural flow on effect from living in an imperfect world where people exists who have the knowledge of good and evil but without the self control and wisdom to handle it. When i said Natural i said natural, not good, or just. And people do suffer as an outcome of their own sins. But we all suffer as a result of sin in this world.

MilkMoon:

I am aware of this. I know evil exists because people have the option. My question was why God created us - with or without free will - knowing we would commit so much evil.

Because in the end it worked to achieve his eternal perfect plan. I believe the great controversy and the start of the rebellion against God was satans desire (and some of the angels agreed with him) to be God/Gods.

Only God has the complete wisdom, only God knows the beginning to the end, only God has the ability to Be God. satans very temptation to humanity was the enticement of becoming Gods. Obtain the knowledge of Good and Evil and you shall be as God, that was satans carrot to them.

So God created the universe as a place where satan could be given the opportunity to prove himself capable of being God and God could reveal just why satan was incapable of being God and He was truly the only One who could be God.

God created this world and allowed it to be corrupted for a Time (not forever) to show to the Heavenly Host why satans claim was false thereby saving the angels who came to believe Gods rightful and exclusive claim to be the only God of all existence.

So to put it into one statement. God has done all this to save as much of His creation as possible, that creation includes the angels as well as human beings. And we do not know how many angels there are. As far as we know they might out number us a million to one.

MilkMoon:

[QUOTE]As to your other points suffering can make us stronger or teach us perseverance but that is mostly about how we chose to react to suffering.

Not sure satan uses suffering to bring people down. He mostly rewards people in this world for joining him.

Suffering can make you stronger depending on the degree. Minor to mild suffering can make you stronger. More intense suffering (war, loss, sexual abuse, poverty, etc) can bring you depression, PTSD, mental, health, and emotional disorders, etc. Severe suffering can even cause insanity. I know a woman who went completely insane after losing all her five children, for example. War veterans suffer from Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder for years, and victims of child sexual abuse get flashbacks and emotional disorders for decades afterwards.

So I disagree.

Please go back and re-read the quote of mine. I did not say all suffering makes us stronger and teaches us perseverance. I said "suffering can make us stronger or teach us perseverance" I did not make an absolutist statement there. Yes some suffering can break us physically, emotionally and even psychologically.

MilkMoon:

And since when does he reward his followers or answer their prayers?

Personally i receive an immediate reward for praying to God. As soon as i start to pray i feel a wave of relaxation and peace come over me that nothing else has ever beat. So much so that i often have to struggle to keep my mind on the subject i was praying about. Sometimes i start to pay and i fall to sleep and wake up later not sure if i actually finished my prayer. I believe prayer is of most benefit to humans. I don't think God gets anything out of it.

The bible states that God knows our prayers even before we say them. I believe this. I believe He knows all history before it ever happens, this includes every thought i shall ever think. And i do not Need God to answer my prayers. All i need is to know is that He hears them, I believe He does. Of course He does He knows all my thoughts. I can pray about a lot of things i believe God will deal with them as He sees fit, not as i see fit. I am a human being so some of the things i pray about will be foolishness to Him. So i leave all things in his hands and accept what ever comes.

MilkMoon:

[QUOTE]

But of course even the ones that join him still experience suffering.

And the ones who join God still experience suffering, all the time. You might say I have no right to question God, but if believing in him made a visible difference, and maybe eased your suffering eventually, perhaps more people would believe. Instead people believer and pray for years and years and nothing ever gets better, so it's only natural they start losing their faith.

I have never thought in my Christian life that God would keep me from suffering. In fact He has not kept me from suffering. But what has happened i believe is God has given me Strength to endure suffering and peace of mind to prevent that suffering form overcoming me emotionally /psychologically. Jesus states in the bible:

John 16

33 These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

:)

Jesus gave us His message so that in this life we will have peace (of mind/spirit/being) but in this world we will have tribulation (pain suffering troubles) But to be in good cheer because He has overcome the way of this world and it shall not be a world of suffering forever. We have Hope.

Ok MilkMoon It is very late here, i live in Australia. I intend to complete this reply tomorrow. Hope you get to read all my replies.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

MilkMoon · Post by **MilkMoon** » Fri Oct 07, 2011 3:09 pm

And there where a few points where you seem not to have clearly read my points.

I might have misunderstood then. I read everything carefully, so maybe I just interpreted it in a way different than that which you intended.

And I apologize for the previous post (the most recent one). I thought it was you responding, and was kind of shocked that you would say that reason is the greatest enemy. It wasn't you and actually someone who agreed with me previously and was most likely being sarcastic. I am sorry for that, I felt a little ashamed when re-reading it, since there was no way I could have corrected my error.

Well i believe if we do exist (and we do) than it is better to be a free willed true beings living in a temporary imperfect existence with the Hope of an eternal perfection then a zombie automation existing in a perfect existence. Because we really would not BE if we where zombie automations.

I can understand that, and I would easily accept it, if the afterlife were perfect and just. Which it isn't if countless people will be sent to hell for no reason other that not being believers. That was what I meant. If religious scriptures agreed that good people will go to heaven no matter what, and that bad people might just spend the rest of their lives in an imperfect world (since an eternal hell sounds a little severe, especially when other factors for wrong-doing are taken into considerations. Things like upbringing, social situation, schooling, bad childhoods, genetics, etc), then I'm sure many of us would find peace. But from what I've read, none of them do, and so many of us don't find peace. Which brings us back to the question of why we are here solely to worship in the first place?

I look forward to an eternal existence where things will be like this.

Despite my many doubts, I too hope that's what lies ahead.

Of course this is not any kind of proof for you

It is proof, as you proved your statement. I mentioned that a rebellion did not occur in Genesis, but I had forgotten what it said in Revelation. I have read the New Testament, but I'm more familiar with the Old Testament.

Please i ask you MilkMoon not to jump ahead of my statements and declare i am saying things i have not said. There is plenty in our posts to comment on without the need to put more words and meanings into each other’s statements.

Forgive me if I am mistaken, but didn't you say that 'suffering is the natural outcome of existing in a fallen/sabotaged creation'? Adam and Eve sinned by eating from the tree, and as a result were banished from heaven. I replied that 'so you're saying that it is only natural for people to suffer for the sins of another?'. I did not put words in your mouth, as we are a fallen/sabotaged creation due to the sins of others (Adam and Eve, in one case), and thus suffering is natural.

I am not declaring that suffering is good. I am declaring that it is a natural flow on effect from living in an imperfect world where people exists who have the knowledge of good and evil but without the self control and wisdom to handle it. When i said Natural i said natural, not good, or just. And people do suffer as an outcome of their own sins. But we all suffer as a result of sin in this world.

I did not say you said suffering is good, I never said you did. I should have been more precise. What I meant was that God's order is not just if the world is designed in a way where people suffer for the sins of others, which ties in with what I said in my very first post, about why God made the world the way it is in the first place.

So to put it into one statement. God has done all this to save as much of His creation as possible, that creation includes the angels as well as human beings. And we do not know how many angels there are. As far as we know they might out number us a million to one.

That makes sense, up to a point. If God's creations would all rebel against and disobey him, why did he create them all to begin with, when they cause nothing but trouble? I understand that only God would be able to answer that question fully, but I'm pretty desperate to find the answer, even if the question is mostly rhetorical.

You might not think it of me, but I really do want to hear answers. I'm not arguing just for the sake of arguing, or for proving my superiority over you because I'm not a follower of religion. For the record, I do not think that. I just can't accept something until I understand it. And only after acceptance can I believe. That might not be faith, but it's very confusing for me. Nobody is directly answering my questions, and each have their good and bad, so I don't know what to believe. I'm looking for the religious group that puts up the best argument.

Personally i receive an immediate reward for praying to God.

This might sound off-topic, but how exactly do you go about praying then? I know I'm not alone when I say that it felt like I just talking to myself, no matter how I tried, in countless different ways.

I believe prayer is of most benefit to humans. I don't think God gets anything out of it.

So why does God command us to worship him then or have us sent to hell, if it is mostly for our benefit and not his. If he doesn't get anything out of the worship of his creations, why were were created in the first place? To entertain him perhaps...? Even that would not hold true either, as we seem to anger God much more than we please him. It seems to me like not only would the world be a better place if there were no free-willed human beings on it, but God would be better off without us as well.

But what has happened i believe is God has given me Strength to endure suffering and peace of mind to prevent that suffering form overcoming me emotionally /psychologically.

I'm sincerely glad to hear that you have found the strength to endure suffering without it overcoming you. But I have a couple other questions that stem from that. Why did God make suffering so unequal between people? If life is test, why doesn't God test us all the same way? Some people lose a loved one, and some people lose their home and entire family in one blow, and end up living on the street. It happens all the time during war or conflict, like what happens all the time in places like Africa, for example. And if suffering gets too severe and there's nothing left and someone commits suicide, they are proclaimed as damned.

I intend to complete this reply tomorrow.

And I intend to read it.

You seem like a decent person, Adstar. I hope I did not appear rude or disrespectful, as it was not my intention. Like I said, it's nothing personal.

PS: I'd especially like to hear your response to some of the Bible quotes I brought up...

Adstar · Post by **Adstar** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 9:03 am

Hello MilkMoon

second installment of the reply to your post:

Quote Adstar:

Little ones are innocent according to the Bible so while everyone who lives past the age of innocence takes on the knowledge of good and evil and therefore are no longer innocent, there is a time of innocence before this.

Quote MilkMoon:

Innocence, as defined by Wikipedia, is "Innocence (or guiltlessness) is a term used to indicate a lack of guilt, with respect to any kind of crime, sin, or wrongdoing. In a legal context, innocence refers to the lack of legal guilt of an individual, with respect to a crime."

Children are innocent as they cannot commit the crimes adults can, and because they are - usually - unaware of sexual matters.

Fair enough. I define it as any human being who does not currently have the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

MilkMoon:

While you might say that all humans are sinners, you cannot lump everyone into that category. People do make mistakes, but not all are in the same degree, or about the same thing.

Here again you are falling back in the degrees of sinfulness. I can lump everyone into the sinners category because no one is without sin. I relation to eternal existence with God it matters not if one is a degree less a sinner and the other person more. As far as God is concerned all people fall short of perfection.

MilkMoon:

You cannot say that everyone in jail are evil.

Where did I say everyone was evil? Once again please do not project positions upon me that I have not stated. Everyone is a sinner but not all people believe their sin is proper and justified. Some feel regret for the wrongs they have done. These people are not evil in Spirit. They have a love for the truth even though their faulty human condition leads them to often fail in doing what they know is good to do and they often do things they don’t consider good: Paul explained this in Romans 7. Take your time when reading the following passage, many people find it hard to take in.

Romans 7

14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

MilkMoon:

Everyone's wronged, or said a little white lie now and then, but not everyone has committed a serious wrong, which makes them innocent.

I disagree. Innocent means they have never sinned and do not sin. It does not matter if they have done this sin and the other has done that sin. They both have sinned.

MilkMoon:

And even if they did make a big mistake, they might have regretted or shown remorse for it later and made sure never to repeat it again, which makes them good. Just because one has hit puberty does not mean they are automatically labeled as 'sinners'.

Where does this word “mistake” come from in relation to the wrongs done by people? Can someone mistakenly rape a child? Or mistakenly steal? Or mistakenly denigrate someone? No. People do what they want to do at the time they do it and they will sometimes use evil if they desire to get something bad enough.

I agree with your thoughts on Remorse, Yes it is a good sign when someone has remorse for a wrong they have done. This is a part of what I call repentance. A person who hates the wrong they have done has the right spirit towards Good and Evil in such a case. And once again I believe Everyone are sinners. So I am not labelling some while not labelling others, I have said I am a sinner. Paul had a saying in the bible that he declared all should agree with, He stated:

1 Timothy 1

15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.

Note he said, “I am Chief” Not “I was Chief”

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The bible warns Christians not to accept the messages of angels if they give a message that is contrary to the message of Jesus.

MilkMoon:

So can you blame non-Christians for not believing in Jesus Christ, as they might have been taught not to accept messages if they give a message contrary to their beliefs as well?

Well I understand anyone who believes in a message about God would and should be very cautious in any message they hear about God. But again once they have heard a message about God and it is their decision to either accept it or reject it. People are responsible for what they embrace and what they reject.

MilkMoon:

I agree we cannot turn our backs on our natures, but isn't that what religious people try to do? I'm never said satisfying your carnal side is a good thing - I admire people with self control (although they might be hypocrites and just act pious and Victorian, whereas they do all the same things other people do, but from under the table) - but I was explaining it in terms of why our worship might be more valuable to God than the angel's worship. People go against what they want - carnal or not - to satisfy God.

Yes i fight the good fight against my human nature. I do it because i don’t like my sin nature. I also try my best in the fight out of my Love for God. BUT i never think I am going to defeat my nature. Fighting it is a statement of intent or desire. I don’t fight thinking I am going to win or thinking God expects me to win. The Victory is Gods. The Messiah Jesus has secured victory for us over it. And you even declare that you admire self-control. But even the ones with self control never achieve total self control. We may reduce the wrongs we do and increase the good we do when we fight our natures and that is good but never have a final victory over ourselves.

As for Hypocrisy. I can understand that a Christian can come over as a hypocrite to non-believers. But that often stems from the non-christian believing that the Message is coming from the Christian. When in fact a Christian is a mere messenger of God and the Message is really from God (that’s if the Christian is doing their job correctly). Let me assure you I often right posts in forums that I later read and I find myself feeling very guilty. The message convicts the messengers as well as the receivers when it comes to the Message of Jesus.

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Secondly the Worship God wants according to the bible is worship in truth. That is to believe and embrace the love of the truth. That is far more valuable that any form of worship with words or song or trained physical movements.

MilkMoon:

What is truth? And if God values truth, why does he not want us to search for it? A minister I once spoke to told me that 'We do not question, we just believe in the Lord'.

Was this minister God for you? No minister has Ever been God for me.

Jeremiah 29

13 And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart.

MilkMoon:

How do we know what the truth is? Or to phrase that better, which one is the truth?

We are convinced a message is true when it moves us deeply. The message has power.

Hebrews 4

12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

MilkMoon:

And God is not sending you to heaven based on your good deeds,

Well I don’t believe the saved will be spending eternity in heaven. But that’s another topic. That’s why I talk about having eternity with God rather that eternity in heaven. And yes I agree God is not saving me because of my good deeds.

MilkMoon:

If he is a perfect being with absolute power, why would he need - or even want - to create us to worship him? It sounds like he did that in order to feel better about himself, as there is no other reason he should create us. People say it's a 'test', yes, but why? God is omniscient, he already knows who will pass and who will fail, so why does he do it anyway? The above was a conclusion I came to. Nobody was giving me any answers, so I found one on my own, and it makes sense more than any of the one's I'd heard that mostly just avoided the original question.

Well I have already revealed to you why I believe He created the universe. It was to save all of creation; The heavenly host is part of that.

MilkMoon:

To find out what? I know that very few - if any - would be able to answer this, but I'm not necessarily asking you, just arguing my point, basically. He already knows everything, if he created us to find something out, that means that he does not know everything. So, why do we call him God?

I made a mistake in my quote. He does not need to find out something. He needs to work out something. Work out His ultimate plan, the restoration of His creation back to a perfect state.

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I don't think having his name wrong will cause one to be damned.

MilkMoon:

I wasn't speaking literally when I was talking about his name. Again, I think you might have misunderstood. If you call God just God, it could mean you're Christian, but calling God 'Allah' means you're Muslim. Calling him 'Yahweh' means you're Jewish, and calling him 'Vishnu' means you're Hindu.

Well I call God YAVEH or one of His Biblical titles. Like, The God of Abraham or The Ancient Of Days. But the word God is not the name of the God of Abraham. God is what He is not who He is. I may be wrong but I believe allah is not a name either but means the same as God. I am not sure if muslims have an actual name for what they believe is the allah of Abraham. Anyway that’s another side issue..

MilkMoon:

The LORD is a jealous God, filled with vengeance and wrath... (Nahum 1:2-8 NLT)

I don't think you can come across anybody, human or otherwise, who is jealous and filled with vengeance and wrath, and call them 'good'. I thought God was supposed to teach us forgiveness, and yet he is jealous and vengeful? It looks quite a bit like hypocrisy to me.

One thing I must make clear here now. The Law of God was designed for mankind. Not for God.

God can be righteously jealous and can be just in dealing out vengeance for the wrongs done upon His people who do not take vengeance into their own hands. God calls on Christians in the bible to forgo vengeance and to do good to those who do them wrong.

We do not have total situational awareness. God does. That is why God can carry out vengeance justly without making a mistake and bringing about an injustice.

And it is good to post scripture with surrounding scripture to provide context lets read the words of the Prophet Nahum in context

Nahum 1 NKJV.

2 God is jealous, and the LORD avenges;

The LORD avenges and is furious.

The LORD will take vengeance on His adversaries,

And He reserves wrath for His enemies;

3 The LORD is slow to anger and great in power,

And will not at all acquit the wicked.

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I disagree with that "pure-hearted" no one is pure. and no one is honest without fault, no one is generous without fault.

MilkMoon:

With all due respect, just because you or the people around you might not be, doesn't mean that there aren't pure-hearted people out there. Are you so narrow-minded as to say they aren't selfless, kind, gentle, generous, humble, compassionate, protective people out there? Sure they might have their faults, but at least they aren't 'jealous and vengeful'. Or violent...

If a person became generous without fault they would soon not have any possessions, no money, they would be naked because they would give all their cloths away and they would starve to death because they would give all their food away. You got to understand I am talking about perfection. not using the relative thinking of mankind. Yes I understand your thoughts, I am human like you. But we are talking about God here and His measure is perfect or imperfect.

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But as to your main point adultery is against the will of God.

But murder (of non-believers, etc) isn't against his will right?

MilkMoon:

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their

fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not

seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether

small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13

NAB)

Firstly that passage is talking about The Hebrews and their agreement with God. So it was not about non-believers. In the covenant/agreement they where to seek the Lord, His will. And the king mandated that anyone who would not would be put to death. Not murder. But an execution.

Murder is unlawful killing. Not Lawful killing.

MilkMoon:

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your

beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve

other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any

other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to

the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon

him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first

raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You

shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from

the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that

place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never

do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

Once again it was unlawful for a Hebrew in the covenant to seek to convert another Hebrew to another religion. There was a death penalty for attempting to do so. So again it was not murder but execution.

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Well murdering innocents is against the will of God. So how could such a person be following the right religion?

MilkMoon:

Now kill all the boys

and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls

who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves. - (Judges 1:21-35 NLT)

Yes He did order their killing. He ordered the killing of the people because of the evil they took part in and the deaths of the innocents where a mercy to them. I believe all innocents that die have eternity with God. And all the innocents of Canaan who died had eternity with God.

MilkMoon:

Then, with Micah's idols and his priest, the men of Dan came to the

town of Laish, whose people were peaceful and secure. They attacked

and killed all the people and burned the town to the ground. (Judges 18:27-29 NLT)

Once again these where the people of Canaan what God ordered the Hebrews to do to them was a judgement upon them. It was declared to the Hebrews as they where entering into Canaan:

Deuteronomy 9

4 “Do not think in your heart, after the LORD your God has cast them out before you, saying, ‘Because of my righteousness the LORD has brought me in to possess this land’; but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is driving them out from before you.

God had dealings with these people for when the Hebrews approached the lands a king of the lands called upon a local prophet of God Balaam to come and curse them, but being lead by the instructions of God Balaam came and blessed the Hebrews. Balaam was not a Hebrew from Egypt but a local.

MilkMoon:

My personal favorite:

You must destroy all the nations the LORD your God hands over to

you. Show them no mercy and do not worship their gods. (Deuteronomy 7:16-24 NLT)

And didn't you say that people are only innocent when they are considered children? But God sanctions the death of male children, as well. If you don't believe me:

Numbers 31:17 (Moses) “Now therefore kill every male among the little

ones, and kill every women that hath known man by lying with him.”

Yes I have read all the Bible, OT and NT, I am not in denial. God did order the Hebrews to destroy the people of Canaan and ordered the killing of their innocents. God used the Hebrews as an implement of His wrath upon them. Years later He used the Babylonians as an implement of His wrath upon the Hebrews of Israel and 40 years after the execution of the Messiah Jesus He used the Romans as an implement of His wrath upon the Jews. The Price of Sin is death. God demonstrated this in no uncertain terms in the OT. But now we are in a time of Grace. Where God is showing his mercy and forgiveness to sinners. Jesus left us with an order not to kill anyone and I don’t kill anyone, I believe Jesus when He says love your enemies and do good to those who do wrong to you.

The Bible is a message delivered over thousands of years. It first established God as Creator it then revealed humanities fault of sin and it then revealed the serious price of those faults. This was established in the OT. The through Jesus God revealed the Way to reconciliation for humanity, to put an end to faulty nature of mankind. The Bible message must be seen and understood in total.

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And I believe once one believes that Jesus has provided atonement for their sins they are forgiven, no need to beg God for mercy on friday saturday or sunday.

MilkMoon:

So it doesn't matter what sins they committed? A murder who killed and tortured countless people will be accepted to heaven if they accept Jesus, but a gentle person who would never hurt a fly would be sent to hell for not accepting him? Again, I don't think I even want to go to heaven if I'll find people like that up there.

They won’t be like that in eternity. Upon the resurrection they will have their faulty natures removed. They will be perfect, they will love and be surrounded by Gods love. I look forward to being perfected by God. I look forward to being freed from my own faulty nature.

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Once again where does it say they committed adultery or they raped?

MilkMoon:

Again, I'm sorry, but you are not reading my post properly. Word of advice: If you ever want to provide a good argument, read the rebuttal carefully and with attention to detail. Moses said the men could keep the virgins to themselves, which means they can sleep with them. If you want more proof:

No it doesn’t. That is what you chose to read into the passage. I did read your words carefully and I knew that was your thoughts. That’s why I asked you to bring forward a quote where it says they could have sex with them. They where kept as servants.

MilkMoon:

But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and

other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the

LORD your God has given you. (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

How do soldiers usually enjoy the spoils of war? They keep it to themselves. And how do soldiers 'enjoy' women during war-time? You don't have to be a genius to figure it out.

You are again reading into scriptures your own interpretation that has more to do with your imaginings rather than what the scriptures actually reveal. Again no clearance in these scriptures for them to engage in rape or unlawful sexual relations.

MilkMoon:

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at

the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man

who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is

not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke

the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her

to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he

must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then

takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to

sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she

may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus

21:7-11 NLT)

If they where allowed to rape and have unlawful sexual relations with the girls then there would be no need to Marry them or organise for their son to Marry them. Understand. So again no clearance to rape or engage in unlawful sexual relations, quite the opposite, the need to marry is stated.

MilkMoon:

Something more specific, perhaps?

Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided

in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for

battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished;

half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not

be removed from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

This scripture is a prophecy of the end times attack upon Israel not by people of God but by the forces of the anti-christ. Who will seek the destruction of the Jews. The people carrying out these deeds will not be followers of God. Just like Babylon who where used by God and just like the Romans who where used by God so too will this end times force be used by God as an implement of his wrath. But there will be no followers of the God of Abraham in this force. Jesus upon His return will destroy this force in the battle of Armageddon.

Ok that’s enough for one sitting. I will do my best to continue tomorrow replying to more of your points.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Adstar · Post by **Adstar** » Sun Oct 09, 2011 3:50 am

Hello again MilkMoon:

Part 3 of my reply to your letter. Turning into a Saga this post of yours.

Adstar:

Well i cannot talk for islam, But i do not think this is correct for Torah based Judaism and it is definitely not supported by Christianity.

MilkMoon:

Proof it is supported:

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the

foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in

your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to

your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves

like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be

treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at

the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man

who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is

not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke

the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her

to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he

must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then

takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to

sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she

may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus

21:7-11 NLT)

Well I must concede on the point of Judaism, But not in regard to Christianity. All men are our Brothers and slavery is not for a brother.

As I read the passage where these verses appear I see that a Hebrew man could sell himself as a slave. And it did talk about being set free after a period of years or being redeemed by a relative for a set price. So yes slavery was allowed.

Adstar:

And what good deed is enough payment for eternity in a perfect paradise? None.

MilkMoon:

And what bad deed is enough punishment for eternity in a horrific hell? Not believing in God.

No believing God. Notice i dropped the "in"

MilkMoon:

And if none of our good deeds are enough for paradise, why does anyone try anyway? And not everybody is a Christian. Does that mean that nearly (if not half) the world's population is going to hell for no reason except for believing in something other than Jesus Christ?

Seeking to do good is good because doing good is Good.

And again I believe that one has eternity in the Lake of Fire for rejecting the will of God. So I do not say that anyone who has not heard the message of Jesus has eternity in the Lake of Fire.

Adstar:

For a Christian it is about accepting the will of God, believing Him. Trusting Him. It is no longer about sin.

MilkMoon:

So...sin doesn't matter anymore, is that what you mean? You can sin all you want now that you're a Christian, and still make it to heaven? Sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

All the sins that I have done and all the sins I ever will do are forgiven, I am saved and have eternity with God. But that is not a licence to sin as some portray the grace of God that the gospel reveals. People who embrace the forgiveness of Jesus hate their sin and acknowledge they are guilty of transgressing the righteous will of God. Such people do not use the grace of God as a licence to sin. And it is a spectacular deal. That’s why it is called Amazing grace.

Oh i must add. There is one sin in Christianity that never has forgiveness it is called blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. But that’s another topic if you are interested.

Adstar:

So let each and every message attract whom it shall attract.

MilkMoon:

That sounds very reasonable of you. But God doesn't believe that does he? Even though he knows we're all different, and that different messages would attract us.

No God does not give eternity to people who reject His message. That statement reveals my acceptance that not all will agree with the message of God. I do not attempt to force anyone to believe and accept anything. It also reveals my confidence that those with a love for the truth will be drawn to believe Gods message by the Holy Spirits influence on their accepting conscience.

Adstar:

Either one message is right and the other is wrong or all messages are wrong.

MilkMoon:

How do you prove this?

I can’t prove it. It is an argument for all those who believe there is only one God. So it is a convincing argument for Torah believing Jews, muslims and Christians and any athiests who believe that if there was a God He would be one. Maybe your open to the belief that there are many gods?

Adstar:

Proof? The proof for believers is in the Message. Not some scientific measurable proof, but a convicting, moral, emotional, moving truth and resonates within their being as true.

MilkMoon:

But didn't you say that 'let each and every message attract whom it shall attract'? Maybe somebody comes across a belief that offers a convincing, moral, emotional, moving truth that resonates within their being as true, but it's not Christianity. Maybe it's Buddhism. Again, why is God so intolerant of people's differences, even though he created us and would know of our differences between each other better than anybody else?

If people are attracted to other religions above the true Message of God then they have judged themselves. They are condemned to the eternal Lake of Fire for rejecting the will of God. No matter how many good teachings are in other religions and there are a lot of nice teachings in other religions. Yes God is intolerant of people who reject His will.

MilkMoon:

What if they heard the truth, but recognized it as lie from the way they raised, or because they were following something else at the time? Then what? Will God be understanding and forgiving? Does it say anywhere in all of his holy books that he will?

Well, no...

What has the way you are raised got to do with something being a lie or the truth? Something is either a lie or it is the truth. If one calls the message of God a lie then they are calling God a liar. If Gods message is true and good. Then one has called evil what is true and good. Once again I do not believe God will forgive a person for rejecting His will. So no God will not be forgiving.

Adstar:

But it is for me the Message that has given me true peace within, confidence and assurance.

MilkMoon:

m glad to hear that religion has given you peace, confidence, and assurance. For me, it just seems like denial, since it is easier the accepting the real truth. Which is that if God exists, he has proven over the years that he couldn't care less. Obviously though, people are free to believe what they want to, as long as they're not hurting anybody or forcing their beliefs on anybody else.

I am not in denial of anything. Why even bring that accusation up against me? Is it polite? Is it dealing with the points raised? No, it’s just personal mud throwing.

I believe God cares for me because he came down to earth in the flesh and died a horrible death so that I may have eternal life for Free.

All Praise The Ancient of Days

Adstar · Post by **Adstar** » Sun Oct 09, 2011 3:56 am

MilkMoon;1371940 wrote: Oh! Sorry gmc, I mistook your username for his. I thought it was Adstar (the person above) who responded to my post, so I thought he was being serious. Now that I know it's you, I'm pretty sure you weren't being serious (I think). I apologize for that. I can't delete the post or edit it now...

This is very interesting. You react to a very disrespectful trolling post with a lot of indignation, but when you realised it was written by a non-believer gmc you turn around and post a meek apology to gmc for reacting to his thoughts with indignation....

What’s wrong with this picture MilkMoon?

Can you see what’s wrong with it?

I sure can.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Adstar · Post by **Adstar** » Sun Oct 09, 2011 6:19 am

Hello MilkMoon

I started eailer tonight so i have been able to reply to your next post.

MilkMoon:

Forgive me if I am mistaken, but didn't you say that 'suffering is the natural outcome of existing in a fallen/sabotaged creation'? Adam and Eve sinned by eating from the tree, and as a result were banished from heaven. I replied that 'so you're saying that it is only natural for people to suffer for the sins of another?'. I did not put words in your mouth, as we are a fallen/sabotaged creation due to the sins of others (Adam and Eve, in one case), and thus suffering is natural.

The first humans believed satan over God. Because they where enticed by satans lie that they would become gods. So sin came into humanity because they obtained the knowledge of good and evil. They suffered as a result of having the knowledge of Good and evil. We also acquire the knowledge of good and evil as we leave innocence and we suffer as a result of our own knowledge of good and evil. And our suffering is multiplied because of the negative effects of everyone else around us have the knowledge of Good and evil. So we are not suffering now because of Adam and Eve's Knowledge of Good and Evil. We are suffering because we also have the knowledge of good and evil. I don’t believe we suffer for adam and eves sins. We are however cursed by inheriting the result of Adam and Eve’s decision

I will also add that God could have just eliminated the first human beings and his sabatarged creation on the day that they required the knowledge of Good and evil. He would have been justified I think in doing that. But He chose to put up with imperfection for a time, so He could Work the Work to Redeem His creation. And as a Christian I believe Adam and eve have access to the salvation of the Messiah Jesus along with all other human beings who never lived to see Jesus day or had the opportunity to hear His message.

MilkMoon:

That makes sense, up to a point. If God's creations would all rebel against and disobey him, why did he create them all to begin with, when they cause nothing but trouble? I understand that only God would be able to answer that question fully, but I'm pretty desperate to find the answer, even if the question is mostly rhetorical.

Well the Bible says that Michael and His angels have never and will never rebel against God. And Gods mercy is upon all mankind who accept His will. So while we are sabotaged in the flesh, we can be righteous in spirit, we (who believe God) are not supporters of the satanic rebellion, we are just infected, if you like, with a character wasting moral disease that we hate.

Why did God create Angels? I don’t know. It could have been simply a case of God being lonely. But that is just me projecting a human emotion/feeling upon God. It is always dangerous projecting human ways of thinking on God. But for me it is the most plausible speculation at the moment. One day I will know.

Why did God create human beings. I believe He created us because of the satanic rebellion. We and the physical universe are Gods reaction/ reply to satans challenge. All of creation is a stage where satan is given the opportunity to prove himself and to disprove Gods exclusivity to Godhood. Now God cannot be beaten the satanic challenge is the ultimate vanity. God in creating the universe and mankind gave satan enough rope to hang himself. satan is doomed to eternity in the lake of fire.

MilkMoon:

You might not think it of me, but I really do want to hear answers.

Hey if i thought you where a troll i would not be exerting this amount of time and effort in replying to you. I believe you really do want answers and i am doing me best to give you all i have been given.

MilkMoon:

I'm not arguing just for the sake of arguing, or for proving my superiority over you because I'm not a follower of religion. For the record, I do not think that. I just can't accept something until I understand it. And only after acceptance can I believe. That might not be faith, but it's very confusing for me. Nobody is directly answering my questions, and each have their good and bad, so I don't know what to believe. I'm looking for the religious group that puts up the best argument.

Where does this “ I got to know everything before I will believe anything” thinking come from. Have you ever loved someone? Or found someone you could place trust in? Now no one knows everything about another person. But people continue to love and trust other people even though they are faulty human beings who could well betray them in the end. Now God is perfect so why not trust God in the areas that you do not understand?

Part of belief is Faith/Trust. Any relationship requires faith/trust to a certain extent. As for me I have to trust God in a lot fewer things than many other Christians I have met. Many of them have only the basic milk truth knowledge of salvation and let’s face it, the basic knowledge that saves is pretty simple stuff. They have to trust in Gods will on so much of the will of God. Most Christians don’t read the bible, nor do they study any of the deeper things of the will of God, but many of them have greater faith than me, No matter what is thrown at them from anti-christs they persist in trusting in God even when they cannot answer the attacks of the anti-christs.

I also desire to know as much as God is willing to allow me to know about Him. But I also believe there are some things about God I would not be able to understand even if God revealed them to me. I believe that in our current state of being we are just unable to understand all things about God. I also believe God will make us understand all things upon the resurrection when he will transform us into perfected beings.

1 Corinthians 13

9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Mirrors in Johns time where not as good as the near perfect ones we have today. But polished brass.

Adstar:

Personally i receive an immediate reward for praying to God.

MilkMoon:

This might sound off-topic, but how exactly do you go about praying then? I know I'm not alone when I say that it felt like I just talking to myself, no matter how I tried, in countless different ways.

I only pray to God when I feel the need to. I never pray to God without a sense of need, a sense of this is important. Vital. I never use scripted prayers. I never say the lords prayer for example. I allow my emotions to flow when I pray and I talk to God with my thoughts. Very rarely do I talk to God audibly with my mouth. Only sometimes when I am sure I am alone, but even then I mostly talk to Him with my thoughts. I never put my hands together or kneel. Usually I will pray late at night lying in my bed before I go to sleep. Often the prayer puts me to sleep. But I can and do pray anywhere at any time. If people are around I do my best to make sure they do not know I am praying.

MilkMoon:

So why does God command us to worship him then or have us sent to hell, if it is mostly for our benefit and not his. If he doesn't get anything out of the worship of his creations, why were were created in the first place? To entertain him perhaps...? Even that would not hold true either, as we seem to anger God much more than we please him. It seems to me like not only would the world be a better place if there were no free-willed human beings on it, but God would be better off without us as well.

Yeah God must love us to put up with us for so long hey…

Thinking about what you said . “So why does God command us to worship him then or have us sent to hell, if it is mostly for our benefit and not his.” Maybe because He loves us and He knows if we worship Him (IN Spirit and Truth) then we will be saved. Again our benefit.

John 4

19 The woman said to Him, “Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship.”

21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

25 The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming”. “When He comes, He will tell us all things.” 26 Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.”

Adstar:

But what has happened i believe is God has given me Strength to endure suffering and peace of mind to prevent that suffering form overcoming me emotionally /psychologically.

MilkMoon:

I'm sincerely glad to hear that you have found the strength to endure suffering without it overcoming you. But I have a couple other questions that stem from that. Why did God make suffering so unequal between people?

It can be a random thing. But no matter what we face I believe God can give us the ability to get through it. It’s not so much what we face but how we respond to it that counts.

You know I could slap two different people across the face. One would wince in pain and burst into tears and the other would roll their eyes at me and laugh. Some people are more physically sensitive then others. It’s not because they are weak and the other person is stronger it is because one has a superior physical sensory system to the other. So same slap registers a far greater pain message in the brain of one compared to the other. Same with emotional pain. Some people are far more sensitive emotionally then others. Criticise one person and their world falls apart but criticize another and they shrug it off like water off a ducks back. What I am trying to get at is that we may perceive someone is hurting more than another when it may well be that the one we perceive as suffering more is actually less sensitive to their situation than the person we look upon as being mildly inconvenienced.

So what I am trying to say from a Christian perspective is different people with different qualities can face what seems to be far different levels of suffering from a third persons perspective but in fact they can be both experiencing their suffering at around the same level of inconvenience.

MilkMoon:

If life is test, why doesn't God test us all the same way? Some people lose a loved one, and some people lose their home and entire family in one blow, and end up living on the street. It happens all the time during war or conflict, like what happens all the time in places like Africa, for example. And if suffering gets too severe and there's nothing left and someone commits suicide, they are proclaimed as damned.

Firstly if you live to a ripe old age you will lose all your family to death. You will go thought the pain of loss time and time again. What is worse? That pain in multiple instalments of single loved ones dieing or one instalment of all your loved ones dieing at the same time. If your mother and dad die today in a car accident. would you still suffer the same grief if your mother died in the accident but your dad survived?

Secondly suicide is not blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and therefore is a forgivable sin. Suicide is self murder, but the atonement of the Messiah Jesus covers the sin of a murderer if they believe Jesus. The proclamation of suicides being damned is one derived from the thinking of men, who thought ( and still think) that men must ask forgiveness for every sin they do each day. Such a doctrine seems logical to the thinking of men. But if it where true then no one would be saved for who can say they have asked forgiveness for each and every sin they have ever sinned? No one.

I have hope and trust in God that He will not allow me to suffer more than I can stand. And he is able to make me stand incredible suffering if it serves His purpose.

Be talking to your soon MilMoon

if God is willing that is.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sun Oct 09, 2011 7:45 am

Adstar;1372092 wrote: This is very interesting. You react to a very disrespectful trolling post with a lot of indignation, but when you realised it was written by a non-believer gmc you turn around and post a meek apology to gmc for reacting to his thoughts with indignation....

What’s wrong with this picture MilkMoon?

Can you see what’s wrong with it?

I sure can.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

milkmoon is beginning to use her reason to question her faith in general and her religion in particular. Your response was the usual shouting down of reason that anyone questioning religious belief receives in response. In some muslim countries they still stone heretics to death it's especially tough for a woman in a muslim country even if the Koran does give due respect to women the clerics - as with many christian clerics- prefer the notion of the subservient wife with her mouth shut and duly grateful for her role in society.

To have faith in a monotheistic religion you must suspend reason and just believe what you are told to believe. Martin Luther understood that very well indeed. I wasn't criticising milk moon I was suggesting she be careful as her reason may end up removing that blind obedience religion demands and if you live in a religious family that can be a traumatic experience. Plus she will find herself subject to long tirades such as yours where the quantity of the post replaces the substance.

littleCJelkton · Post by **littleCJelkton** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:45 am

gmc;1372109 wrote: milkmoon is beginning to use her reason to question her faith in general and her religion in particular. Your response was the usual shouting down of reason that anyone questioning religious belief receives in response. In some muslim countries they still stone heretics to death it's especially tough for a woman in a muslim country even if the Koran does give due respect to women the clerics - as with many christian clerics- prefer the notion of the subservient wife with her mouth shut and duly grateful for her role in society.

To have faith in a monotheistic religion you must suspend reason and just believe what you are told to believe. Martin Luther understood that very well indeed. I wasn't criticising milk moon I was suggesting she be careful as her reason may end up removing that blind obedience religion demands and if you live in a religious family that can be a traumatic experience. Plus she will find herself subject to long tirades such as yours where the quantity of the post replaces the substance.

I would love to have the faith to believe that the world was created in seven days... but I have thoughts... and that can really f@#k up the faith thing,

just ask any Catholic priest

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:11 pm

posted by littleCJelkton

I would love to have the faith to believe that the world was created in seven days... but I have thoughts... and that can really f@#k up the faith thing,

just ask any Catholic priest

:yh_rotfl Naughty, there are of course some who argue that catholics are not "proper" christians, being in to idolatry amongst other things.

Why confine your stidies to monotheism milkmoon. The sanskrit texts are amongst some of the oldest religious texts in the world.

Sacred-Texts: Hinduism

Or if you prefer reason

The Age of Reason

Try

The Age of Reason Index

Thomas paine's the age of reason turned him from a hero of the American revolution in to a pariah. Slightly archaic language but enjoyable nevertheless.

No one will deny or dispute the power of the Almighty to make such a communication if he pleases. But admitting, for the sake of a case, that something has been revealed to a certain person, and not revealed to any other person, it is revelation to that person only. When he tells it to a second person, a second to a third, a third to a fourth, and so on, it ceases to be a revelation to all those persons. It is revelation to the first person only, and hearsay to every other, and, consequently, they are not obliged to believe it.

It is a contradiction in terms and ideas to call anything a revelation that comes to us at second hand, either verbally or in writing. Revelation is necessarily limited to the first communication. After this, it is only an account of something which that person says was a revelation made to him; and though he may find himself obliged to believe it, it cannot be incumbent on me to believe it in the same manner, for it was not a revelation made to me, and I have only his word for it that it was made to him.

When Moses told the children of Israel that he received the two tables of the commandments from the hand of God, they were not obliged to believe him, because they had no other authority for it than his telling them so; and I have no other authority for it than some historian telling me so, the commandments carrying no internal evidence of divinity with them. They contain some good moral precepts such as any man qualified to be a lawgiver or a legislator could produce himself, without having recourse to supernatural intervention. [NOTE: It is, however, necessary to except the declamation which says that God 'visits the sins of the fathers upon the children'. This is contrary to every principle of moral justice.—Author.]

When I am told that the Koran was written in Heaven, and brought to Mahomet by an angel, the account comes to near the same kind of hearsay evidence and second hand authority as the former. I did not see the angel myself, and therefore I have a right not to believe it.

When also I am told that a woman, called the Virgin Mary, said, or gave out, that she was with child without any cohabitation with a man, and that her betrothed husband, Joseph, said that an angel told him so, I have a right to believe them or not: such a circumstance required a much stronger evidence than their bare word for it: but we have not even this; for neither Joseph nor Mary wrote any such matter themselves. It is only reported by others that they said so. It is hearsay upon hearsay, and I do not chose to rest my belief upon such evidence.

It is, however, not difficult to account for the credit that was given to the story of Jesus Christ being the Son of God. He was born when the heathen mythology had still some fashion and repute in the world, and that mythology had prepared the people for the belief of such a story. Almost all the extraordinary men that lived under the heathen mythology were reputed to be the sons of some of their gods. It was not a new thing at that time to believe a man to have been celestially begotten; the intercourse of gods with women was then a matter of familiar opinion. Their Jupiter, according to their accounts, had cohabited with hundreds; the story therefore had nothing in it either new, wonderful, or obscene; it was conformable to the opinions that then prevailed among the people called Gentiles, or mythologists, and it was those people only that believed it. The Jews, who had kept strictly to the belief of one God, and no more, and who had always rejected the heathen mythology, never credited the story.

MilkMoon · Post by **MilkMoon** » Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:43 am

Hello Adstar. Sorry for the late reply, I'd been very busy lately.

Where did I say everyone was evil? Once again please do not project positions upon me that I have not stated.

I think you misunderstand. I was just giving an example. I did not mean you literally said that everyone in jail was evil, I was speaking colloquially. I should have been clearer.

I disagree. Innocent means they have never sinned and do not sin. It does not matter if they have done this sin and the other has done that sin. They both have sinned.

Well then we can agree to disagree. Nobody's perfect, but there are people who are innocent. I don't see how being aware of sexual matters labels you otherwise.

Where does this word “mistake” come from in relation to the wrongs done by people?

I didn't specify what mistakes there are, I don't know all of them and what's in people's hearts. I meant things like stealing or drug abuse, for example. What you said about child abuse touched a nerve, though. Here are a few quotes that make it seem to me that Bible condones the abuse of children (and God and the prophet Elisha are not sinners, supposedly)

Psalms 137:9 Here god commands that infants should be “dashed upon

the rocks”.

Judges 11:30-40 Jephthah killed his young daughter (his only child) by

burning her alive as a burnt sacrifice to the lord for he commanded it

Exodus 12:29 God killed, intentionally, every first-born child of every

family in Egypt, simply because he was upset at the Pharaoh. And god

caused the Pharaoh’s actions in the first place. Since when is it

appropriate to murder children for their ruler’s forced action?

2 Kings 2:23-24 The prophet Elisha, was being picked on by some

young boys from the city because of his bald head. The prophet turned

around and cursed them in the Lords name. Then, two female bears

came out of the woods and killed forty-two of them. You would think

that God could understand that sometimes the youthful make childish

jokes. Calling someone “bald head” is far from being worthy of death

Proverbs 13:24, 19:18, 22:15, 23:13-14 & 29:15 God commands

repeatedly that you beat your children.

People do what they want to do at the time they do it and they will sometimes use evil if they desire to get something bad enough.

I do agree with this, but I wasn't talking about that caliber of people.

Well I understand anyone who believes in a message about God would and should be very cautious in any message they hear about God. But again once they have heard a message about God and it is their decision to either accept it or reject it. People are responsible for what they embrace and what they reject.

Like I said, people are very different from one another, not only in appearance but in thought and opinion as well. And you agreed that people have to make a decision what to embrace and reject, but even if their intentions are good, they might choose the wrong one, which sends them to an eternal hell full of torture and suffering. Again, back to my original point, how is this fair?

I can understand that a Christian can come over as a hypocrite to non-believers.

I never said a Christian would come across as a hypocrite. I apologize for not explaining myself correctly. I know they are many sincerely pious religious people. However, I'm sure that even you cannot deny that there are many people - religious or not - who preach certain things then go out and do those things themselves, behind closed doors. If someone genuinely has self control, they usually have my respect, not only if they appear to have it. And I don't mean self-control only as in controlling carnal desires, but from controlling themselves in general. Controlling their thoughts, words, anger, jealousy, and such.

But that often stems from the non-christian believing that the Message is coming from the Christian. When in fact a Christian is a mere messenger of God and the Message is really from God

I agree with that. But if you notice, my original post was talking about God, not his believers. If a philosophy says something is wrong, and the followers of that philosophy do it anyway, that's their faults, not the philosophy's. But if the philosophy itself says something that should be considered wrong (killing, slavery, rape of captives, etc) isn't wrong, then you blame the philosophy. That was my point. I wouldn't be saying anything against religion if the former was true. However, in this case, it is the latter that is true, which is why I am here having this discussion.

Was this minister God for you? No minister has Ever been God for me.
I never said the minister was God. I understand you didn't mean it literally, but he wasn't the only person to tell me this. As of now, there have been twenty or more people, Muslim as well as Christian, who told me not to question, and to just believe. To be honest with you, I do not remember what the Quran and Bible specifically say about questioning.

We are convinced a message is true when it moves us deeply. The message has power.
However, what if the message is contradictory? Wouldn't that lessen our faith in it, since this shows weakness? A few of the many examples (random selections from one of my lists) :

24. Robbery commanded

Ex 3:21,22/ Ex 12:35,36

Robbery forbidden

Lev 19:13/ Ex 20:15

25. Lying approved and sanctioned

Josh 2:4-6/ James 2:25/ Ex 1:18-20/ 1 Kings 22:21,22

Lying forbidden

Ex 20:16/ Prov 12:22/ Rev 21:8

30. Slavery and oppression ordained

Gen 9:25/ Lev 25:45,46/ Joel 3:8

Slavery and oppression forbidden

Is 58:6/ Ex 22:21/ Ex 21:16/ Matt 23:10

34. Judging of others forbidden

Matt 7:1,2

Judging of others approved

1 Cor 6:2-4/ 1 Cor 5:12

35. Christ taught non-resistance

Matt 5:39/ Matt 26:52

Christ taught and practiced physical resistance

Luke 22:36/ John 2:15

36. Christ warned his followers not to fear being killed

Luke 12:4

Christ himself avoided the Jews for fear of being killed

John 7:1

58. Man was created after the other animals

Gen 1:25,26,27

Man was created before the other animals

Gen 2:18,19

65. The father of Joseph, Mary's husband was Jacob

Matt 1:16

The father of Mary's husband was Heli

Luke 3:23

66. The father of Salah was Arphaxad

Gen 11:12

The father of Salah was Cainan

Luke 3:35,36

76. Christ was crucified at the third hour

Mark 15:25

Christ was not crucified until the sixth hour

John 19:14,15

109. Jesus was all-powerful

Matt 28:18/ John 3:35

Jesus was not all-powerful

Mark 6:5

115. It was lawful for the Jews to put Christ to death

John 19:7

It was not lawful for the Jews to put Christ to death

John 18:31

116. Children are punished for the sins of the parents

Ex 20:5

Children are not punished for the sins of the parents

Ezek 18:20

This one especially:

15. God is cruel, unmerciful, destructive, and ferocious

Jer 13:14/ Deut 7:16/ 1 Sam 15:2,3/ 1 Sam 6:19

God is kind, merciful, and good

James 5:11/ Lam 3:33/ 1 Chron 16:34/ Ezek 18:32/ Ps 145:9/

1 Tim 2:4/ 1 John 4:16/ Ps 25:8

Please feel to free to explain or correct me if I had misunderstood anything.

It was to save all of creation; The heavenly host is part of that.

Work out His ultimate plan, the restoration of His creation back to a perfect state.

I can understand that.

However, I can't understand why he would make imperfect creations in the first place, if his goal now is to restore his creation back to a perfect state. I remember you saying it was to prove that he was right, if I'm not mistaken. Why would he need to prove anything to us? His inferiors?

I know you probably can't answer this, but I wonder what Islam would have to say about this. That is a different subject though.

I may be wrong but I believe allah is not a name either but means the same as God. I am not sure if muslims have an actual name for what they believe is the allah of Abraham

Allah means the same as God, but it is his name. Allah has 99 names, but they're really adjectives. Allah is his actual name. People say Allah when praying or such. It's rare they just say 'God', even if it's in Arabic.

God can be righteously jealous

But didn't you say that when I said he might have to created us to give himself an ego boost, that I was applying a human emotion onto God? Isn't jealousy a very common human emotion? Anger, too, is also a very human emotion. Anger and jealousy be found among animals other than humans all the time as well.

If God felt emotion, then he would not be a God, but a human being.

That is why God can carry out vengeance justly without making a mistake and bringing about an injustice.

I'm sorry, but I can't see how he is being righteously jealous and vengeful when he brutally punishes entire groups of people for not believing in someone they can't see or hear, or for the mistakes of others of their group/tribe.

making a mistake

"God is not like men, who lie; He is not a human who changes his mind. Whatever he promises, he does; He speaks and it is done." - Numbers 23:19

"So the Lord changed his mind and did not bring on his people the disaster he threatened." - Exodus 32:14

Here God seems to make a mistake, or to directly reference the quote, 'change his mind'. Changing one's mind is a very common human behaviour, not the kind of thing one would expect from a being like God.

Even if you don't necessarily agree with them, can you see why some people might have doubts about the truth?

bringing about an injustice
When God - Hosea (13:16) - says: The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open."

Is this not considered committing injustice? What wrong did the children commit to have them dashed to pieces? And if the murdering the infants was a mercy, as you said, why couldn't they have just killed them and their pregnant mothers quickly and painlessly? Rather than killing them by ripping them open? Is that not gruesome and cruel, or just downright barbaric?

I doubt that if a leader (like Gaddafi in Libya or likewise) had the infants of his rebels 'dashed to pieces', he would be called loving, merciful, or just. As for pregnant women being ripped open...how can people defend that? Is it because he's God, and can commit whatever injustice he likes and still be called just?

If a person became generous without fault they would soon not have any possessions, no money, they would be naked because they would give all their cloths away and they would starve to death because they would give all their food away.
But we are talking about God here and His measure is perfect or imperfect.
I understand your point, but then, in all honestly, it seems as if God is an unappreciative person who is impossibly hard to please (if at all). In any situation - spiritual or otherwise-, if nothing you do is good enough, why even try?

In the covenant/agreement they where to seek the Lord, His will. And the king mandated that anyone who would not would be put to death. Not murder. But an execution.
So doesn't mean that we are to follow God purely out of fear for our own lives?

The Wikipedia definition for the word Fascist (the epithet) is:

"...the word 'fascist' is intended to mean "oppressive", "intolerant", "chauvinist", "genocidal", "dictatorial", "racist", or "aggressive" – all concepts that are allegedly inspired by the ideology of actual fascism, and pervasive through fascist states."

He seems oppressive (eg. homosexuals) and intolerant (eg. think non-Abrahamic religions). I'm not sure about chauvinist, but he's genocidal, dictatorial, possibly racist, and aggressive.

Again, this is my opinion, not an insult to you.

Murder is unlawful killing. Not Lawful killing.
Please define what you consider to be murder, and what you consider to be lawful killing.

And why kill them anyway, if they are apparently going to hell in the end? Why does God let other people dictate whether somebody's life should be taken or not? Isn't that God's job?

Once again it was unlawful for a Hebrew in the covenant to seek to convert another Hebrew to another religion. There was a death penalty for attempting to do so. So again it was not murder but execution.

So killing your family and friends because they're telling you about a religion different from yours, maybe because they believe the one they are telling you about is the right one and that if you don't follow it you would be punished in the afterlife, is lawful? Either way, how would a Hebrew attempting to convert another Hebrew to another religion hurt anybody if the religion they were following was really the truth? If they were honestly moved by the power of the religion they were following, what harm would come from hearing about a different one? Unless the religion they were originally following wasn't convincing enough.

Not to mention, if God's religion is really peaceful, and if his plan was really to restore the world to perfection, wouldn't trying to convert them and convince them of the truth - and therefore perhaps save their soul - be better than murdering them and therefore giving them a one-way ticket to hell without a chance of repenting? And yes, I did say murdering. They didn't kill, rape, steal, or do anything wrong except believe in something else, and therefore this is cold-blooded murder. I quote again 'Do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him', 'stone him to death'. I don't know what kind of person it would take to stone their brother, children, beloved wives or intimate friends to death simply for teaching them about a religion different than their own. And the execution isn't even reasonable either. At least make it a quick death if you have to, but the preferred method is stoning. How can this be justified?

Yes He did order their killing. He ordered the killing of the people because of the evil they took part in and the deaths of the innocents where a mercy to them. I believe all innocents that die have eternity with God. And all the innocents of Canaan who died had eternity with God.

My original problem was the rape, but you interpreted it differently. There is no way we can prove which of our interpretations were correct, so let's say yours is correct, that they kept the girls as servants. Why then not keep the boys as servants too? Why are the girl's lives more important than the boy's? Aren't children innocent, despite the gender?

Now you say the death of the innocents is a mercy. In that case, why did they take mercy on the young boys, and not the girls? If you have another explanation as to why they murdered the boys and not the girls, I'm willing to hear it. I might necessarily not agree with it, but I will hear it.

And either way, children are innocent. You said this yourself. Previously, you also said 'murdering innocents is against the will of God'. Now murdering innocents is the will of God, and not only that, but a mercy? You also said 'How could such a person be following the right religion'...

If something is wrong, it is wrong. If murder is immoral, then it remains so. There should not be exceptions to the rule, as shown above.

It is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is driving them out from before you.

'Whose people were peaceful and secure'. In Judges, it said the people were peaceful and secure, and in Deuteronomy it's saying that they are wicked. Would you mind clarifying this for me?

killing of their innocents

I think you mean murder, seeing as how you made the distinction previously.

Jesus left us with an order not to kill anyone
Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but if God orders the killing of people but Jesus doesn't, isn't this Jesus showing mercy and forgiveness and God showing intolerance and wrath?

I can understand why people would love Jesus, but I can't understand how they would love God.

I believe Jesus when He says love your enemies and do good to those who do wrong to you.
Here I quote the Satanic Bible. It is too violent in some parts, which means I do not like it, but it's not as bad as the Old Testament by far. However, this part describes what I feel about 'love your enemies and do good to those who do wrong to you' better than I could:

"Upon what rational authority does the gospel of love rest? Why should I not hate mine enemies - if I "love" them does that not place me at their mercy?

Can the torn and bloody victim "love" the blood-splashed jaws that rend him limb

from limb?

Love your enemies and do good to them that hate and use you - is this not the

despicable philosophy of the spaniel that rolls upon its back when kicked?"

"You cannot love everyone; it is ridiculous to think you can. If you love everyone and

everything you lose your natural powers of selection and wind up being a pretty poor

judge of character and quality. If anything is used too freely it loses its true meaning.

Therefore, the Satanist believes you should love strongly and completely those who

deserve your love, but never turn the other cheek to your enemy!

Love is one of the most intense emotions felt by man; another is hate. Forcing yourself to feel

indiscriminate love is very unnatural. If you try to love everyone you only lessen your

feelings for those who deserve your love. Repressed hatred can lead to many physical and

emotional ailments. By learning to release your hatred towards those who deserve it, you

cleanse yourself of these malignant emotions and need not take your pent-up hatred out on

your loved ones."

And here is the Satanic Bible specifically forbidding rape, whereas other Abrahamic scriptures failed to do so:

Satanism condones any type of sexual activity which properly satisfies your individual desires

- be it heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, or even asexual, if you choose. Satanism also

sanctions any fetish or deviation which will enhance your sex-life, so long as it involves no

one who does not wish to be involved.

More specifically:

The Satanist would not intentionally hurt others by violating their sexual rights. If you attempt to impose your sexual desires upon others who do not welcome your advances, you are infringing upon their sexual freedom. Therefore, Satanism does not advocate rape, child molesting, sexual defilement of animals, or any other form of sexual activity which entails the participation of those who are unwilling or whose innocence or naïveté would allow them to be intimidated or misguided into doing something against their wishes.

If the Satanic Bible sees what's wrong with rape and child abuse, and Abrahamic scriptures do not, something is definitely going wrong here.

As I said, if somebody does something their philosophy says is wrong, then the blame is on them and not the philosophy. If somebody does something their philosophy doesn't state is wrong, then the blame is on them and their philosophy.

But now we are in a time of Grace. Where God is showing his mercy and forgiveness to sinners
Why?

Please feel free to explain that, as I will admit I cannot make sense of why God is only now showing mercy and forgiveness to sinners.

Upon the resurrection they will have their faulty natures removed. They will be perfect, they will love and be surrounded by Gods love.
But shouldn't we judged by what we did on planet Earth? Rather than just be perfected because we accepted Jesus and tortured because we didn't?

Again no clearance in these scriptures for them to engage in rape or unlawful sexual relations.
I already brought up a quote further on where the order was clearly stated to have 'the women ravished'. Naturally, I applied this to the other situations. Perhaps my previous interpretations might have been subjective (as yours might have been, as we were free to decipher as we will), but I will discuss that point at the end.

Again no clearance in these scriptures for them to engage in rape or unlawful sexual relations.
But no prohibition. This was a green light, and they were free to speed ahead if they wished. Even if they did not necessarily engage in sexual activity with them, there's always the concept of forced marriage, which I don't recall is prohibited anywhere in the Bible.

If they where allowed to rape and have unlawful sexual relations with the girls then there would be no need to Marry them or organise for their son to Marry them. Understand. So again no clearance to rape or engage in unlawful sexual relations, quite the opposite, the need to marry is stated.
I gave that quote because it sounded like forced marriage. Rape can happen in or out of marriage, it doesn't have to be extramarital. "If he himself marries her and then

takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to

sleep with her as his wife". This could very well be rape, but within marriage. She was a slave girl after all, and there's no indication that she gave any consent to the marriage.

The people carrying out these deeds will not be followers of God.
I will give you this, but as you said:

used by God as an implement of his wrath
I was never talking about the followers. I was talking about what God sanctioned and what he didn't. Forgive me if I misunderstood, but in that quote, God seems to be sanctioning that. "And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem..." I might be wrong, but it seems like it's God who is planning this out. You yourself said, God is using them to implement his wrath. This is not something he is opposed to.

MilkMoon · Post by **MilkMoon** » Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:55 am

gmc;1372109 wrote: milkmoon is beginning to use her reason to question her faith in general and her religion in particular. Your response was the usual shouting down of reason that anyone questioning religious belief receives in response. In some muslim countries they still stone heretics to death it's especially tough for a woman in a muslim country even if the Koran does give due respect to women the clerics - as with many christian clerics- prefer the notion of the subservient wife with her mouth shut and duly grateful for her role in society.

To have faith in a monotheistic religion you must suspend reason and just believe what you are told to believe. Martin Luther understood that very well indeed. I wasn't criticising milk moon I was suggesting she be careful as her reason may end up removing that blind obedience religion demands and if you live in a religious family that can be a traumatic experience. Plus she will find herself subject to long tirades such as yours where the quantity of the post replaces the substance.

I'm in a bit of a rush, but I do intend on answering the other posts later. Thank you for this, I couldn't help but smile. You took the words right out of my mouth, but said them better

And to Adstar, I did not respond the way I did because he was a non-believer, it was because I realized he wasn't being serious. Didn't I already say that? I know how to apologize for my mistakes, as I have done with you as well. I am not meek.

Adstar · Post by **Adstar** » Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:29 am

Hello again Milkmoon

Having read your last post one part definitely stood out for me and let me say it pretty well knocked out any hope that i had for you. But God has your eternal destiny in His hands so He has the final say.

I doubt anything i convey to you from this point on will be to your personal benefit. But i will continue to reply to your points out of hope for others who may be genuinely undermined by misconceptions. I will now quote the part of your post that has taken away my hope for you.

Here I quote the Satanic Bible. It is too violent in some parts, which means I do not like it, but it's not as bad as the Old Testament by far. However, this part describes what I feel about 'love your enemies and do good to those who do wrong to you' better than I could:

"Upon what rational authority does the gospel of love rest? Why should I not hate mine enemies - if I "love" them does that not place me at their mercy?

Can the torn and bloody victim "love" the blood-splashed jaws that rend him limb

from limb?

Love your enemies and do good to them that hate and use you - is this not the

despicable philosophy of the spaniel that rolls upon its back when kicked?"

To quote the Bible a worthy response:

Isaiah 5

20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

The sweet excellence of pure Agape love of God you have despised and called evil. Jesus expressed His desire while being executed for the ones who where executing Him to be forgiven and upon the day of Pentecost many of them where. What joy, even those who brutally killed Jesus have salvation. That’s the true gift of love. They ended up loving Him because He loved them first.

If i go out as a Christian and fight to preserve my life. (a life i am going to lose anyway, We all die) And if i kill a non-believer, or one who is in a state of rejecting the Salvation of God. What have i done? Not only killed that person but effectively sent them to the eternal Lake of Fire. But if i chose not to resist and allow that person to kill me, what happens then? Why i have eternity with God and can kiss this faulty existence goodbye and the one who killed me still has the opportunity to repent and be saved.

No greater love can one show to another then to lay down their life for them. Laying down ones life for an enemy is what Jesus did and what all followers of Jesus are called to do if needed. Nothing higher in nobility than that in my opinion.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Adstar · Post by **Adstar** » Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:56 am

Tried to post this 4 times. getting error message. Now i am going to try to cut it in half see if that works

MilkMoon;1372509 wrote:

I didn't specify what mistakes there are, I don't know all of them and what's in people's hearts. I meant things like stealing or drug abuse, for example. What you said about child abuse touched a nerve, though. Here are a few quotes that make it seem to me that Bible condones the abuse of children (and God and the prophet Elisha are not sinners, supposedly)

Psalms 137:9 Here god commands that infants should be “dashed upon

the rocks”.

Psalm 137

8 O daughter of Babylon, who are to be destroyed,

Happy the one who repays you as you have served us!

9 Happy the one who takes and dashes

Your little ones against the rock!

Where is the order? There is no order here. God never ordered the Israelites to do this. He simply stated that the ones who will do this will be happy to do it.

This is a Prophecy. If you have read the book of Revelation you will have heard of the Harlot of Babylon. You probably have also heard of the Beast in Revelation. The Harlot of Babylon represents a false religion masquerading as a representative of the God of Abraham on earth and the Beast is the empire that will be controlled by the lawless one, commonly called the anti-christ. While the Harlot of Babylon has served satan well. When the anti-christ comes he will have no further need for the Harlot but one. To sacrifice the Harlot of Babylon in an attempt to deceive the saints who have been tribulated by the Harlot. For her cup runs other with the blood of the saints. The book of Revelations clearly state that it will be the Beast empire that will destroy the Harlot of Babylon.

Revelation 17

16 And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

So it was not the Jews and it will not be the Christians who are going to do this. But the followers of the Anti-christ.

Judges 11:30-40 Jephthah killed his young daughter (his only child) by

burning her alive as a burnt sacrifice to the lord for he commanded it

Where did the Lord command it? No Jephthah was a foolish man who made a grave error. He made an oath to God that:

Judges 11

30 And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD, and said, “If You will indeed deliver the people of Ammon into my hands, 31 then it will be that whatever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the people of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD’s, and I will offer it up as a burnt offering.”

For the Jews an oath to God had to be done. Jephthah made a terrible oath. Once he arrived home what was the first thing that came out of His doors to meet him.

Judges 11

34 When Jephthah came to his house at Mizpah, there was his daughter, coming out to meet him with timbrels and dancing; and she was his only child. Besides her he had neither son nor daughter. 35 And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he tore his clothes, and said, “Alas, my daughter! You have brought me very low! You are among those who trouble me! For I have given my word to the LORD, and I cannot go back on it.”

The story of Jephthah is a warning about swearing oaths. Jesus gave a wise teaching to His followers not to ever swear an oath He said:

Matthew 5

33 “Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.’ 34 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.

So as a Christian i do not Swear Oaths.

Exodus 12:29 God killed, intentionally, every first-born child of every

family in Egypt, simply because he was upset at the Pharaoh. And god

caused the Pharaoh’s actions in the first place. Since when is it

appropriate to murder children for their ruler’s forced action?

Some of them where children, yes. But it said the first born. So that could have been the first born of any family at any age. Also it was Gods vengeance of the Egyptians for their attempted genocide of the Hebrews. Remember the story of Moses? Why his mother had to give him up? And put him in a basket in the river Nile? Lets read scriptures of the policy being carried out by the pharaoh at the time of the birth of Moses.

Exodus 1

15 Then the king of Egypt spoke to the Hebrew midwives, of whom the name of one was Shiphrah and the name of the other Puah; 16 and he said, “When you do the duties of a midwife for the Hebrew women, and see them on the birthstools, if it is a son, then you shall kill him; but if it is a daughter, then she shall live.”

He ordered all the Hebrew boys to be killed at birth.

2 Kings 2:23-24 The prophet Elisha, was being picked on by some

young boys from the city because of his bald head. The prophet turned

around and cursed them in the Lords name. Then, two female bears

came out of the woods and killed forty-two of them. You would think

that God could understand that sometimes the youthful make childish

jokes. Calling someone “bald head” is far from being worthy of death

1. The scriptures do not call them childeren it calls them youths. Youths can be anyone under 21.

2 Kings 2

23 Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up the road, some youths came from the city and mocked him, and said to him, “Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!”

2. Scriptures state they the bears mauled the youths. It does not say they killed them.

2 Kings 2

24 So he turned around and looked at them, and pronounced a curse on them in the name of the LORD. And two female bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.

Proverbs 13:24, 19:18, 22:15, 23:13-14 & 29:15 God commands

repeatedly that you beat your children.

Corporal displine is advised in the Bible. When a child misbehaves they should be disciplined. Never excessively. A loving parent will smack their child to teach them that unpleasant things come from naughtiness. Better to smack a child, then to let them grow up undisciplined and wind up being pack raped in some prison.

Like I said, people are very different from one another, not only in appearance but in thought and opinion as well. And you agreed that people have to make a decision what to embrace and reject, but even if their intentions are good, they might choose the wrong one, which sends them to an eternal hell full of torture and suffering. Again, back to my original point, how is this fair?

Their response to the Message reveals their deep set intention. The Message of God is:

Hebrews 4

12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

I never said a Christian would come across as a hypocrite. I apologize for not explaining myself correctly.

I said Christians can come across as Hypocrites. They deliver a very high standard code that they themselves often fail to live up to. So to the world they are often seen as hypocrites.

I know they are many sincerely pious religious people. However, I'm sure that even you cannot deny that there are many people - religious or not - who preach certain things then go out and do those things themselves, behind closed doors.

People can sincerely believe in what is good but again fail to to do it. Does not make them hypocrites, That just makes them human. People can also hate an action but then go and do it themselves. How many smokers confess they hate the habit, but they will go out and smoke all the same?

If someone genuinely has self control, they usually have my respect, not only if they appear to have it. And I don't mean self-control only as in controlling carnal desires, but from controlling themselves in general. Controlling their thoughts, words, anger, jealousy, and such.

So you never have carnal desires? To act to control ones carnal desires means that one must first think of carnal desire within their minds. Jesus states that even looking at a woman to lust for her is the same as adultery.

Matthew 5

28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

A sin once thought is done. People say Jesus did away with the law. But He actually made the law a lot stricter. If you are angry with someone Jesus declares you a murderer.

Matthew 5

“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment.

I never said the minister was God. I understand you didn't mean it literally, but he wasn't the only person to tell me this. As of now, there have been twenty or more people, Muslim as well as Christian, who told me not to question, and to just believe. To be honest with you, I do not remember what the Quran and Bible specifically say about questioning.

Isaiah 1

8 “ Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the LORD, “ Though your sins are like scarlet, They shall be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They shall be as wool.

James 1

5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him.

End of part 1

Adstar · Post by **Adstar** » Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:59 am

Ok lets try this again:

Milkmoon said:

However, what if the message is contradictory? Wouldn't that lessen our faith in it, since this shows weakness? A few of the many examples (random selections from one of my lists) :

24. Robbery commanded

Ex 3:21,22/ Ex 12:35,36

Robbery forbidden

Lev 19:13/ Ex 20:15

25. Lying approved and sanctioned

Josh 2:4-6/ James 2:25/ Ex 1:18-20/ 1 Kings 22:21,22

Lying forbidden

Ex 20:16/ Prov 12:22/ Rev 21:8

30. Slavery and oppression ordained

Gen 9:25/ Lev 25:45,46/ Joel 3:8

Slavery and oppression forbidden

Is 58:6/ Ex 22:21/ Ex 21:16/ Matt 23:10

34. Judging of others forbidden

Matt 7:1,2

Judging of others approved

1 Cor 6:2-4/ 1 Cor 5:12

35. Christ taught non-resistance

Matt 5:39/ Matt 26:52

Christ taught and practiced physical resistance

Luke 22:36/ John 2:15

36. Christ warned his followers not to fear being killed

Luke 12:4

Christ himself avoided the Jews for fear of being killed

John 7:1

58. Man was created after the other animals

Gen 1:25,26,27

Man was created before the other animals

Gen 2:18,19

65. The father of Joseph, Mary's husband was Jacob

Matt 1:16

The father of Mary's husband was Heli

Luke 3:23

66. The father of Salah was Arphaxad

Gen 11:12

The father of Salah was Cainan

Luke 3:35,36

76. Christ was crucified at the third hour

Mark 15:25

Christ was not crucified until the sixth hour

John 19:14,15

109. Jesus was all-powerful

Matt 28:18/ John 3:35

Jesus was not all-powerful

Mark 6:5

115. It was lawful for the Jews to put Christ to death

John 19:7

It was not lawful for the Jews to put Christ to death

John 18:31

116. Children are punished for the sins of the parents

Ex 20:5

Children are not punished for the sins of the parents

Ezek 18:20

This one especially:

15. God is cruel, unmerciful, destructive, and ferocious

Jer 13:14/ Deut 7:16/ 1 Sam 15:2,3/ 1 Sam 6:19

God is kind, merciful, and good

James 5:11/ Lam 3:33/ 1 Chron 16:34/ Ezek 18:32/ Ps 145:9/

1 Tim 2:4/ 1 John 4:16/ Ps 25:8

Please feel to free to explain or correct me if I had misunderstood anything.

Adstar · Post by **Adstar** » Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:04 am

Oh "one of my lists"?? One of your lists hey? You read the bible and came up with them Yes?? Or did you copy and paste them from an anti Christian website?

Is this your work? Your investigation? Or simply Plagiarism.

I would ask anyone to copy the first point no 24. And paste it into a search engine and see where it comes from.

It's an old tactic, copy and paste supposed biblical contradictions from an anti-christ website to swamp a Christian with questions in the hope that they will feel overwhelmed and not even try.

Adstar · Post by **Adstar** » Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:07 am

Well let me deal with the first one and your "favourite".

24. Robbery commanded

Ex 3:21,22/ Ex 12:35,36

Robbery forbidden

Lev 19:13/ Ex 20:15

Exodus 3

21 And I will give this people favour in the sight of the Egyptians; and it shall be, when you go, that you shall not go empty-handed. 22 But every woman shall ask of her neighbour, namely, of her who dwells near her house, articles of silver, articles of gold, and clothing; and you shall put them on your sons and on your daughters. So you shall plunder the Egyptians.”

The verse does not say anything about robbery at all. God caused the hebrews to be favoured in the minds of the egyptian women. So that when the Hebrew woman asked for gold silver and clothing the Egyptians would give them willingly. The Hebrews had been hard worked salves of the egyptians for generations what they received from the Egyptian woman did not come anywhere near to recompense them for that.

So you read these verses carefully did you? And you came up with these contradictions?

Next verse you mentioned that supposedly says that God told them to rob the Egyptians.

Exodus 3

35 Now the children of Israel had done according to the word of Moses, and they had asked from the Egyptians articles of silver, articles of gold, and clothing. 36 And the LORD had given the people favour in the sight of the Egyptians, so that they granted them what they requested. Thus they plundered the Egyptians.

No Robbery here. They asked the Egyptians and the Egyptians granted them what they requested.

You know you really should stay with your own thoughts on scripture. Relying on others to come up with "your"? Contradictions can backfire on you.

I will also look at your favourite:

This one especially:

15. God is cruel, unmerciful, destructive, and ferocious

Jer 13:14/ Deut 7:16/ 1 Sam 15:2,3/ 1 Sam 6:19

God is kind, merciful, and good

James 5:11/ Lam 3:33/ 1 Chron 16:34/ Ezek 18:32/ Ps 145:9/

1 Tim 2:4/ 1 John 4:16/ Ps 25:8

Jeremiah 13

8 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 9 “Thus says the LORD: ‘In this manner I will ruin the pride of Judah and the great pride of Jerusalem. 10 This evil people, who refuse to hear My words, who follow the dictates of their hearts, and walk after other gods to serve them and worship them, shall be just like this sash which is profitable for nothing. 11 For as the sash clings to the waist of a man, so I have caused the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah to cling to Me,’ says the LORD, ‘that they may become My people, for renown, for praise, and for glory; but they would not hear.’

12 “Therefore you shall speak to them this word: ‘Thus says the LORD God of Israel: “Every bottle shall be filled with wine.”’ “And they will say to you, ‘Do we not certainly know that every bottle will be filled with wine?’

13 “Then you shall say to them, ‘Thus says the LORD: “Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land—even the kings who sit on David’s throne, the priests, the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem—with drunkenness! 14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together,” says the LORD. “I will not pity nor spare nor have mercy, but will destroy them.”’”

Why did He do this to the people of Judah? Verse 10 gives the reason They where an evil people who refused to hear Gods words and to serve other gods. So He had reasons for His judgement upon them. God can and does destroy the wicked, the evil and He shows no mercy to those who do evil and seek no forgiveness for their wrongs.

Then there are the verses about Gods kindness mercy and good:

Ezekiel 18

30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord GOD. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord GOD. “Therefore turn and live!”

When does God give mercy? When does He show His kindness upon people? When they Repent and turn form their evil ways

The next verses show that God is most merciful to the repentant but has no mercy to those who do not seek it.

Pslam 34

15 The eyes of the LORD are on the righteous,

And His ears are open to their cry.

16 The face of the LORD is against those who do evil,

To cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.

17 The righteous cry out, and the LORD hears,

And delivers them out of all their troubles.

18 The LORD is near to those who have a broken heart,

And saves such as have a contrite spirit.

19 Many are the afflictions of the righteous,

But the LORD delivers him out of them all.

20 He guards all his bones;

Not one of them is broken.

21 Evil shall slay the wicked,

And those who hate the righteous shall be condemned.

22 The LORD redeems the soul of His servants,

And none of those who trust in Him shall be condemned.

So YAVEH is both a God or Mercy and loving kindness but also a God of great wrath. Where one stands in this depends on their response to the will of God.

I will not be answering any more of those examples. They are not yours anyway. The actual ones who created that list rely on the desire of the people who cut and paste them for them to be accurate and true.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

MilkMoon · Post by **MilkMoon** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:42 pm

Sorry for the late reply, I'd been very busy as of late and didn't have time to read all of the new posts, much less write a reply. You were right when you said this post is turning into a saga.

I will now quote the part of your post that has taken away my hope for you.

The Satanic Bible was quite logical when it stated that forcing oneself to love somebody they hate, the person who abuses them or their loved ones, is a very unnatural thing. I will quote again ""You cannot love everyone; it is ridiculous to think you can. If you love everyone and everything you lose your natural powers of selection and wind up being a pretty poor judge of character and quality. If anything is used too freely it loses its true meaning"

I quoted it because it sounded reasonable and explained the problem with loving your enemies better than I could, not because it is against the teachings of the Bible

What have i done? Not only killed that person but effectively sent them to the eternal Lake of Fire.

Exactly my point. But wasn't this what God had ordered? Before Jesus?

But now we are in a time of Grace. Where God is showing his mercy and forgiveness to sinners. Jesus left us with an order not to kill anyone and I don’t kill anyone, I believe Jesus when He says love your enemies and do good to those who do wrong to you.

Why did he suddenly become more understanding and tolerant?

Where did the Lord command it? No Jephthah was a foolish man who made a grave error.

I must have misunderstood this, then. Nonetheless, my point still goes back to the fact that God did order the killing of innocents because of the crimes of their parents. "God did order the Hebrews to destroy the people of Canaan and ordered the killing of their innocents. God used the Hebrews as an implement of His wrath upon them. Years later He used the Babylonians as an implement of His wrath upon the Hebrews of Israel and 40 years after the execution of the Messiah Jesus He used the Romans as an implement of His wrath upon the Jews. The Price of Sin is death. God demonstrated this in no uncertain terms in the OT."

Some of them where children, yes. But it said the first born. So that could have been the first born of any family at any age.

So is there nothing wrong with condemning someone for a crime they did not commit? Why cannot everyone be responsible for their own actions? Why doesn't God judge fairly, rather than kill innocent people (and you agree they were also children involved) because of his red-hazed wrath and vengeance?

He ordered all the Hebrew boys to be killed at birth.

Why the boys and not the girls? They are both children, aren't they both innocent?

The scriptures do not call them childeren it calls them youths. Youths can be anyone under 21.

I did not say they were children. I said 'young boys' and 'youthful'. Either way, is calling someone 'baldhead' a crime worthy of death or mauling? Whether you are a child or not, is a childish insult honestly worth this kind of punishment? What happened to patience, forgiveness, and turning the other cheek? Especially since this was hardly a serious insult?

Corporal displine is advised in the Bible. When a child misbehaves they should be disciplined. Never excessively.

Where does it say not to beat them excessively?

Proverbs 13:24(KJV): "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes."

Proverbs 13:24(AMP): "He who spares his rod (of discipline) hates his son, but he who loves him diligently disciplines and punishes him early.

Proverbs 22:15: "Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him."

Proverbs 23:13-14: "Withold not discipline from the child, for if you strike and punish him with the (reed-like) rod, he will not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

(source from Bible.com: Bible.com)

While I agree that children should be disciplined, I draw the line at 'rods'. The site mentions that a rod must be small and possibly a branch, but I do not think this is mentioned anywhere in the Bible. People are free to translate.

I said Christians can come across as Hypocrites. They deliver a very high standard code that they themselves often fail to live up to. So to the world they are often seen as hypocrites.

People can sincerely believe in what is good but again fail to to do it. Does not make them hypocrites, That just makes them human. People can also hate an action but then go and do it themselves. How many smokers confess they hate the habit, but they will go out and smoke all the same?

So a person who preaches about fornication being sinful, then goes out and commits it, is not being a hypocrite? A pedophile priest, a Muslim sheik that drinks alcohol daily, a rabbi that watches pornography...aren't these all examples of hypocrisies? It is one thing to make a mistake, and it is another to willingly commit that mistake over and over, then preach about how wrong it is. If you commit a mistake, repent, and try never to do it again, then it was an honest mistake you might have felt regret over.

For example, a religious person who knows that something wrong and attempts to stay away from it is not a hypocrite, but how about one who vehemently expresses their hatred and contempt for sinners, but sins every single day, then gets down on their knees to beg for forgiveness in order to clear their consciousness, then goes out and does it again and again? An obvious case of hypocrisy. Then they have the nerve to claim moral superiority over others. I'm not saying all religious people are like this, but I'm pretty sure there are much more than accounted for.

To act to control ones carnal desires means that one must first think of carnal desire within their minds.

So Christians are never to have desires? When a married religious man, for example (as you mentioned the Matthew quote on adultery), sees an attractive woman walking down the street, aren't they tempted to look? Isn't the main difference between a moral and immoral man that one lowers their eyes in order not to look, while the other blatantly ogles? Human beings are sexual creatures, whether the Bible wants to admit it or not. What should matter is whether they control themselves or not, not whether they have desires in the first place. Everybody does, with the exception of asexual people, but not everyone embraces this, although it is certainly easier to look than to avert your eyes. That is why it is a test.

If you are angry with someone Jesus declares you a murderer.

Even if your anger is justified? This is a bit of an eyebrow raiser for me. Just because I am angry at someone does not mean I'm about to murder them. I'm not like God in that aspect.

Somebody who gets rightfully angry (if someone stole from them, hurt a loved one) is not the same as a murderer, who kills innocent people simply because of pent-up anger within themselves. What if I get angry, but remain calm and collected? Am I still a murderer then? Anger is a very common human emotion, and if everyone who gets angry is a murderer, won't everyone deserve the death penalty for being a murderer? Never getting angry would mean you are an emotionless zombie, something you said was undesirable in your previous posts (it was in regards to free will, but still. A lack of emotions mean you are not human and more zombie-like) Does this mean that in order to be Christian, you need to numb your emotions, and become almost zen-like in that you never get angry or never feel desire outside marriage? It sounds like a very lofty goal. I'm sure that few - if anyone - would classify as Christian if that is the definition they have to live up to.

Bonus question (as in, this is not a point I am proving, it is just another question):

Let's say my anger did lead to murder, though. A murderer is somebody who murders innocents, and murder is defined as unlawful killing. You said this yourself. Now, what if someone sexually abused my little sister? I'm asking this because this came very close to happening, and she was only seven years old. If this happened, and I were to kill him, wouldn't that anger and killing be justified? Or am I supposed to love him for what he did to her? If I am supposed to be 'loving my enemy'?

Isaiah 1

8 “ Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the LORD, “ Though your sins are like scarlet, They shall be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They shall be as wool.

James 1

5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him.

Yes, but is this in regards to questioning the actual Bible, and possibly the existence of God?

MilkMoon · Post by **MilkMoon** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:42 pm

(I posted the first post twice by accident and could not delete it, so this current post has to remain here)

MilkMoon · Post by **MilkMoon** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:43 pm

(Continuation)

Oh "one of my lists"?? One of your lists hey?
You sound a little angry. Careful, you would not want to be labeled a murderer

You read the bible and came up with them Yes?? Is this your work? Your investigation? Or simply Plagiarism.
Did I say that?

I said 'one of my lists'. If you were to ask me, I would have told you. When I started scrutinizing the Quran, as opposed to just meaninglessly reading it and memorizing it for my Quranic class, I complied a list of things that bothered me or that I wanted to find out more about. They ranged from the treatment of non-believers, people of other faiths, children, slaves, homosexuals, women and animals. Part of my list included problems with the actual Quran and hadiths, such as absurdities (crying trees and talking rocks, anybody?) hypocrisy, good things, family values, science, injustices, and - wait for it - contradictions.

I sited both pro-Quran and anti-Quranic as information on the topics. I was sick of pro-Quranic sources telling me what I wanted to hear, and hiding away the bad or the alternative interpretations, so I looked at the anti-Quranic sources to see what they brought up. It was then I discovered a lot of information the pro-Quranic sources couldn't answer and justify. For example, in Islam, the word of a woman is worth half that of a man's. When taken at face value, this doesn't seem like too big a deal. But log onto 'TheReligionOfPeace.com' for example, which is blocked by the Saudi Arabia government by the way, and it tells you that this basically means that women cannot prove rape. The punishment for accusing an innocent person (man or woman) of adultery is lashings, by Islamic and Saudi Arabian law. So if the woman tells of her rape, and the man denies it, doesn't this mean she's going to get lashed?

So you see, I never would have thought of this if I'd only been reading pro-Islamic sites.

When moving onto Christianity (which I don't know as well as Islam, obviously) I found much more problems. I sited both pro-Bible and anti-Bible sources (as you now know).

I didn't find any Christian sources that pin-pointed all the contradictions (why would they do that, any way?), so naturally I used sites against Christianity to bring them up.

Surely you don't blame me for wanting to see both sides of the argument?

You know you really should stay with your own thoughts on scripture. Relying on others to come up with "your"? Contradictions can backfire on you.

Perhaps I should.

As I noted above, the parts of your post I don't respond to are the ones I am undecided on or agree on. I admit I was wrong on some points (the part on robbery, not the last one, but that I will explain later on)

I can never know what to believe. An anti-Islamic source might be pro-Christianity, and state something about Islam that is completely untrue or simply paints it in a bad picture. The opposite is also true. It seems pretty difficult to see an unbiased argument that simply displays the facts or that gives more than one possible translation, good or bad. I have found a couple neutral sites, but questions simply lead to more, and there are no definite answers.

If you type in 'Biblical contradictions' the second or third result (depending on your browser) would include the cut-and-paste I posted above. The site simply stated them simpler than the other listed websites. Others directly listed on the first page would be:

A List Of Biblical Contradictions

BIBLE CONTRADICTIONS ANSWERED -- Biblical Errors Mistakes Difficulties Discrepancies Countered

Losing Faith In Faith

American Atheists | Biblical Contradictions

Here is a Christian site that pops up on the first page though:

Bible Contradictions, A Christian Response.

The first part pretty much sums up my whole point.

Direct quote from site:

One has to wonder what it would mean if even one of these apparent contradictions is the result of an error made by one of the original Biblical authors. *Would this mean that the Bible is not really the truth it claims to be? *I, for one, would have to say that errors in the Bible, if any exist, do not reflect on whether the Bible represents the truth of God. *The Biblical authors were most definitely inspired by God, but being inspired by God does not mean that you are perfect and never make mistakes. *No reasonable person is claiming that God Himself wrote the Bible, dictating every passage into the ears of the authors. *The details of what they wrote often came from their own memories or what they heard from other people. *There certainly are occasions where the authors heard directly from God or Jesus, and then you could certainly say that this information came directly from God (as Jesus was a physical manifestation of God), but there are no contradictions in this information.

This basically proved my whole point. The Bible contained errors, and this is not denied. God himself did not write the Bible, dictating every passage into the ears of the authors. Doesn't this mean that they were free to interpret as they wished, possibly modify a bit of the original words, and maybe even invent parts of it? Is this is not 100% the word of God, don't I have every right to question, object, and maybe even disregard? The passages they wrote 'often came of their own memories or what they heard from other people'. We know that human memory is unreliable, and that hearsay and stories that might have passed through the gravevine are prone to errors, misunderstanding, and maybe even invention for the sake of personal gain? The writings are to be known as the word of God, so isn't there a very high possibility the authors or re-counters of these events modified the words or teachings, etc, in order to gain power and influence over the followers of these written words? If the Bible relies on hearsay, is prone to error, not perfect, nor the direct word of God, how can we possibly accept it as irrevocably true?

This evil people, who refuse to hear My words, who follow the dictates of their hearts, and walk after other gods to serve them and worship them,

Since you put this quote in bold form, the first thing I saw was how God described 'evil people'.

Not 'those who harm others' or anything of the sort, but 'those who refuse to hear my words' - perhaps because they were raised to hear other words or follow in the footsteps of their parents, and those 'who follow the dictates of their hearts' - those who follow what they believe is right, which should supposedly lead them to the Bible, and those who 'walk after other Gods to serve them and worship them'.

Again, this comes back to God's incredible jealousy. This leads me back to my very first post, as it seems like God wants us to worship him because he is in serious need of a self-esteem booster. It is common knowledge that people with high amount of jealousy are actually insecure people. And again, I repeat, jealousy is a very negative human emotion, wouldn't a supreme being be above feeling so uncontrollably jealous because a couple insignificant human beings worshiped someone different?

And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together,” says the LORD. “I will not pity nor spare nor have mercy, but will destroy them.”

Because they did not believe in him? Is this really worth responding to with such violence and anger? Why did he not send them a prophet, messenger, or angel to give them a chance to repent or turn back to him?

God can and does destroy the wicked, the evil and He shows no mercy to those who do evil and seek no forgiveness for their wrongs.

Again, this goes back to how God actually described the wicked and evil. And what wrong did they commit? Believing in something else because their fathers and forefathers believed in this? Aren't we raised as children to be obedient to our parents and therefore their beliefs, and doesn't the Bible state this as well?

When does God give mercy? When does He show His kindness upon people? When they Repent and turn form their evil ways

One last time, what is his definition of evil? From the quote you gave me from Jerimiah, God's definition of evil might not be the same as yours or mine, or maybe even the law's. Why is God's mercy so debatable? If someone is described as kind, that does not mean they are only kind to their family and horrible to everyone else. Someone described as kind is someone who has kindness for everyone, and not only the people of their kin.

Likewise, with God, his believers are granted heaven, whereas people who form alliances with those other than him are granted hell, regardless of whether they committed actual evil or not.

Adstar · Post by **Adstar** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:11 am

MilkMoon;1373286 wrote:

The Satanic Bible was quite logical when it stated that forcing oneself to love somebody they hate, the person who abuses them or their loved ones, is a very unnatural thing. I will quote again ""You cannot love everyone; it is ridiculous to think you can. If you love everyone and everything you lose your natural powers of selection and wind up being a pretty poor judge of character and quality. If anything is used too freely it loses its true meaning"

I quoted it because it sounded reasonable and explained the problem with loving your enemies better than I could, not because it is against the teachings of the Bible

But that’s just it. It is against the Bible and you quoting it and being in agreement with it reveals what you hold to be true and good. It does not matter if you believe satan exists or not or if you believe God exists or not. It is the message that has been given to attract the ones who will be saved and that is the message you have rejected and called foolish.

Loving ones enemy does not cause one to lose their ability to discern character, Actually loving an enemy often involves bringing to their minds their character flaws through giving them the convicting Word of God. It's tuff love for them sometimes. And again some of the meanest people are that way because they have never been loved. Often when you show a bit of love to such people it will shock them in a good way.

In the end however if people don't respond to ones love then no accusing finger can be placed upon you for causing their hatred towards you if you have loved them. If people don't respond to love they are on the road to Gods Judgement.

Milkmoon said:

[QUOTE] Adstar said:What have i done? Not only killed that person but effectively sent them to the eternal Lake of Fire.
Exactly my point. But wasn't this what God had ordered? Before Jesus?

I must make sure i clarify my position. Firstly the person i was talking about would be like you. They would be in a state of rejecting the Message of God. This is what would place them in a state of eternal condemnation. So i was not talking about someone who was a non-believer who had never heard the Message of the gospel and therefore has not rejected the Message yet.

Now lets get back to the comment. Lets take an example. Noah and the destruction of most of the worlds population in the flood. These people had never heard the message of Jesus, God at the time had not yet revealed the Gospel of forgivness through the atonement of the Word of God. So it could not be said that these people had died in a state of rejection of the gospel message. With this in mind let me now quote a relevant passage of the Bible.

1 Peter 3

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

Ok this is very important. Jesus after He was executed went and preached the Gospel message to the spirits in prison (dead humans in hell) who where formerly Disobedient in the days of Noah.

So Jesus gave the message to the people in hell, Why? So they would have the opportunity to embrace it or reject it.

So the difference between me killing a rejector of the message of Jesus and God killing sinners in the OT. Is that i would be guaranteeing that persons eternal damnation but Those God killed in the OT where not guaranteed eternal damnation. Because Jesus went down to them and gave them an opportunity to accept His atonement for their sins and be forgiven and have eternal salvation.

Why did he suddenly become more understanding and tolerant?

He has shown His forgiveness in the OT when people are repentant. Look at story of David and His adultery with bathsheba and how David organised the death of her husband. When confronted with his sin, when God sent the prophet Nathan to him, David responded in the correct manner to God.

2 Samuel 12

1 Then the LORD sent Nathan to David. And he came to him, and said to him: “There were two men in one city, one rich and the other poor. 2 The rich man had exceedingly many flocks and herds. 3 But the poor man had nothing, except one little ewe lamb which he had bought and nourished; and it grew up together with him and with his children. It ate of his own food and drank from his own cup and lay in his bosom; and it was like a daughter to him. 4 And a traveler came to the rich man, who refused to take from his own flock and from his own herd to prepare one for the wayfaring man who had come to him; but he took the poor man’s lamb and prepared it for the man who had come to him.”

5 So David’s anger was greatly aroused against the man, and he said to Nathan, “As the LORD lives, the man who has done this shall surely die! 6 And he shall restore fourfold for the lamb, because he did this thing and because he had no pity.”

7 Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man! Thus says the LORD God of Israel: ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8 I gave you your master’s house and your master’s wives into your keeping, and gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if that had been too little, I also would have given you much more! 9 Why have you despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in His sight? You have killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword; you have taken his wife to be your wife, and have killed him with the sword of the people of Ammon. 10 Now therefore, the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised Me, and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife.’ 11 Thus says the LORD: ‘Behold, I will raise up adversity against you from your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun. 12 For you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, before the sun.’”

13 So David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.”

He never said, "yeah i did it Uriah was a fool and deserved to die and me being king should have what ever woman i like"

Or your favourite: "Oh i made a mistake" I mistakenly lusted for her and i don't know how but we seemed to fall down together and what do you know we ended all naked and having sex. I got no idea how that happened and then i just kind of had her hubby mistakenly killed" But it was all just a mistake really."

David said: “I have sinned against the LORD.” Like yes i sinned, yes i am guilty. No denial. No, i did it and i am proud of it, No i did it but it was only a mistake.

So God forgave David. Great sinner but a repentant sinner who reacted the correct way to conviction.

I must have misunderstood this, then. Nonetheless, my point still goes back to the fact that God did order the killing of innocents because of the crimes of their parents.

Yes He did. But the deaths of the little ones where part of the punishment upon their parents. Imagine, you face the death penalty for your evil deeds but you also know your children are going to die because of your evil deeds.

Also the little ones had eternity with God. So in the end it was a blessing to those innocents to die and get an early mark into eternity with God.

Milkmoon said:

[QUOTE]Adstar said:

Some of them where children, yes. But it said the first born. So that could have been the first born of any family at any age.
So is there nothing wrong with condemning someone for a crime they did not commit? Why cannot everyone be responsible for their own actions? Why doesn't God judge fairly, rather than kill innocent people (and you agree they were also children involved) because of his red-hazed wrath and vengeance?

Some of the first born where guilty, And if they where innocents then they where not condemned they where liberated from an evil society and entered into eternity with God.

Milkmoon said:

[QUOTE]Adstar said:

He ordered all the Hebrew boys to be killed at birth.
Why the boys and not the girls? They are both children, aren't they both innocent?

Strange reply. I can only assume that you have not been reading my posts carefully but been skimming over them. Because anyone reading your reply above would think you believed God ordered the killing of the Hebrew boys and you where asking why God killed the boys and not the girls seeing that they are both innocent. Go back and read what i said. It was Pharaoh who ordered the killing of all the Hebrew baby boys. Why did he keep the girls. Well He still wanted slaves.

Yes when that someone is a messenger of God giving a serious message from God and people are denigrating them because they hate the message.... just like atheists mock and denigrate Christians who are giving a serious message of God are worthy of being put to death.

Whether you are a child or not, is a childish insult honestly worth this kind of punishment? What happened to patience, forgiveness, and turning the other cheek? Especially since this was hardly a serious insult?

God had shown then a lot of patience and was willing to forgive them and remember it is Gods order to us followers to turn the cheek, He is under no such teaching.

Where does it say not to beat them excessively?

Proverbs 13:24(KJV): "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes."

Proverbs 13:24(AMP): "He who spares his rod (of discipline) hates his son, but he who loves him diligently disciplines and punishes him early.

Proverbs 22:15: "Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him."

Proverbs 23:13-14: "Withold not discipline from the child, for if you strike and punish him with the (reed-like) rod, he will not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

Where does it say in those scriptures to beat them excessively? Nowhere.

(source from Bible.com: Bible.com)

While I agree that children should be disciplined, I draw the line at 'rods'. The site mentions that a rod must be small and possibly a branch, but I do not think this is mentioned anywhere in the Bible. People are free to translate.

Well i agree with the guidance of scripture and the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

So a person who preaches about fornication being sinful, then goes out and commits it, is not being a hypocrite?

No because they are giving a teaching of God not their own teaching.

If they believe that the teaching is right and good but they sin because of their faulty human state then they are still forgiven. But if they don't really believe what they preach but it is only a job they do to secure a living then go out and commit adultery then they are indeed Hypocrites and not forgiven.

A pedophile priest,

Well this one i believe is different then the first example you give, because God in scripture reveals that ones who have rejected the love of the truth are given over to vial passions and i am sure you agree with me that paedophilia is a vial passion. I do not believe anyone who commits such acts is saved. Now maybe such people might come to be saved later but i doubt it.

a Muslim sheik that drinks alcohol daily, a rabbi that watches pornography...aren't these all examples of hypocrisies?

I am not here to talk for other religions. Ask a muslim or a rabbi about these things.

It is one thing to make a mistake, and it is another to willingly commit that mistake over and over, then preach about how wrong it is.

Here you go with your "mistake" (sin responsibility denial) word again. But you have added a biblical word here willingly as a descriptor of an attitude towards ones sinning. This is a very serious thing in the bible:

Hebrews 10

26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

Willfull sin is not just sin. It is an attitude towards sin. It is pride in ones sin and a spirit of rebelliousness towards Gods will. The ultimate "in your face defiance" towards God. So no one who willfully sins after accepting the love of the truth will have atonement for their sins. On the contrary they will receive the utmost wrath of God.

If you commit a mistake, repent, and try never to do it again, then it was an honest mistake you might have felt regret over.

I regret my sins. But i never call them mistakes. My sins are my sins, i am guilty of them, they are my responsibility.

For example, a religious person who knows that something wrong and attempts to stay away from it is not a hypocrite,

Yes... and that is what Christians who have truly accepted with gratitude and joy the forgiveness of God through the Messiah Jesus attempt to do. But still, being in our current faulty human state we are doomed to fail on occasions. It is still noble however to resist sin. It's making a statement about what one believes to be right and good, even thought we fall down again and again. The bible also reveals this in the book of Romans: This scripture should be read slowly and carefully. A lot of people find it takes some time for the message to sink it.

Romans 7

14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

but how about one who vehemently expresses their hatred and contempt for sinners, but sins every single day, then gets down on their knees to beg for forgiveness in order to clear their consciousness, then goes out and does it again and again? An obvious case of hypocrisy.

Some people vehemently express their hatred for a sin but are not expressing hatred for the sinner. But to those who love that sin they only see it as an expression of hatred for them. Take the homosexual sex act, sodomy as an example. Christians stand up and declare sodomy an abomination to God and are labelled homophobes for it. When in fact they are giving sure warning of the judgement of God in the hope that some homosexuals will seek embrace the forgiveness of God and be saved.

Now i agree, there are some who call themselves christians who do indeed expressed hatred and contempt for homosexuals. I guess a good example of this would be the westbro baptist church who walk around with signposts saying "God hates fags" But they have rejected one of the most commonly sayings among Christians, that being:

"love the Sinner hate the sin"

Then they have the nerve to claim moral superiority over others. I'm not saying all religious people are like this, but I'm pretty sure there are much more than accounted for.

Correct not all are like this. I do not claim moral superiority. I am a sinner guilty as charged by the Law of God and there are others who are like me.

So Christians are never to have desires? When a married religious man, for example (as you mentioned the Matthew quote on adultery), sees an attractive woman walking down the street, aren't they tempted to look?

Yes and they sin when they do. They’re guilty. I am guilty of this too. I am very fortunate I am forgiven.

Isn't the main difference between a moral and immoral man that one lowers their eyes in order not to look, while the other blatantly ogles?

Both men have sinned.

The one who lowers his eyes lowered them because he was having those thoughts. He lowers them because he agrees with God “in spirit” that his thoughts are sin.

The other one who blatantly ogles is a willfull sinner who loves his sin and indeed does not see it as sin.

Of course lets not be sexists about this woman also sin when they do this.

Human beings are sexual creatures, whether the Bible wants to admit it or not.

Human beings should look upon other people as human beings not sex objects. When a man ogles at a woman he is not acknowledging her as a thinking loving emotional human being, He is just using her as a piece of flesh.

What should matter is whether they control themselves or not, not whether they have desires in the first place. Everybody does, with the exception of asexual people, but not everyone embraces this, although it is certainly easier to look than to avert your eyes. That is why it is a test.

And those who are in agreement with God resist sin. But they cannot defeat sin, And that is why they need to atonement of the Messiah Jesus to cover them for the times they fall down. We are all sinners in need of the atonement of the Messiah Jesus, this is the revelation of the Message of God. We have eternity with God not through our own efforts but through the Work of God to cover those who are in agreement with God.

Even if your anger is justified? This is a bit of an eyebrow raiser for me. Just because I am angry at someone does not mean I'm about to murder them. I'm not like God in that aspect.

It is good to be angary at evil and sin. But to be angry at a sinner justifies Gods wrath upon you. As you judge so shall ye be judged. I admit i get angry at others. But i don't seek to justify myself in it. I accept Gods Word on the issue. I thank God for His forgiveness through the Messiah Jesus.

Somebody who gets rightfully angry (if someone stole from them, hurt a loved one) is not the same as a murderer, who kills innocent people simply because of pent-up anger within themselves.

Anger at theft, good. Anger at the thief not good.

What if I get angry, but remain calm and collected? Am I still a murderer then? Anger is a very common human emotion, and if everyone who gets angry is a murderer, won't everyone deserve the death penalty for being a murderer?

YES. Everyone deserves the eternal death penalty. Every human being who rejects the forgiveness of God through the atonement of the Messiah Jesus will have that death penalty. Only through being forgiven our sins can we have eternity with a perfect God. This is a foundational belief of followers of the Messiah Jesus.

Never getting angry would mean you are an emotionless zombie, something you said was undesirable in your previous posts (it was in regards to free will, but still. A lack of emotions mean you are not human and more zombie-like) Does this mean that in order to be Christian, you need to numb your emotions, and become almost zen-like in that you never get angry or never feel desire outside marriage? It sounds like a very lofty goal. I'm sure that few - if anyone - would classify as Christian if that is the definition they have to live up to.

No i cannot do all these things. Thanks be to God i have His forgiveness. Without it i would be absolutely eternally stuffed.

Bonus question (as in, this is not a point I am proving, it is just another question):

Let's say my anger did lead to murder, though. A murderer is somebody who murders innocents, and murder is defined as unlawful killing. You said this yourself. Now, what if someone sexually abused my little sister? I'm asking this because this came very close to happening, and she was only seven years old. If this happened, and I were to kill him, wouldn't that anger and killing be justified?

Your killing him would be the lest of his troubles. He would spend eternity in torment in the lake of fire. He would be judged for his sin against the child. But you would also be facing judgement for your unlawful killing of him. As a Christian we are called to give over judgement to God. He is the one who deals out the punishments and they are far more horrendous then anything you could ever do to that person. True cheek turning, love your enemies, Christians, are the most fearsome people in existence. Why? Because they don't carry out vengeance for themselves they pass it all over to God.

Or am I supposed to love him for what he did to her? If I am supposed to be 'loving my enemy'?
No your not supposed to love sin. Or love someone because of their sin. But you should be prepared to forgive someone who repents for their evil doings. Yeah i know i such a case it would be incredibly difficult. But i have read of a concentration camp survivor forgiving her former camp guard. I can’t imagine how hard that would be, but still it is what Jesus wants His followers to do.

Just looked it up her name was Corrie ten boom.

MilkmoonSaid:

[QUOTE]Adstar

saiah 1

8 “ Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the LORD, “ Though your sins are like scarlet, They shall be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They shall be as wool.

James 1

5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him.

Yes, but is this in regards to questioning the actual Bible, and possibly the existence of God?

Look at your posts. Are they to do with the existence or non existence of God? Nope.

Like most anti-christs your posts are filled with your Disagreements with the will of God.

Very little is ever put forward by atheists or theists about the existence of God. 99.9% of discussions on God are about objections to the expressed will of God revealed in the Bible. Many atheists look upon God as they look upon adolph hitler. They seem to have the argument "God is mean therefore God does not exist". How would you look upon a person who after reading mien kamph and stories of WW2 conclude that hitler never existed because i hate his book and i hate his actions.

Or how would you look upon a person who after being told by a vulcanologist that they are living next to a once dormant volcanoe that is about to violently erupt, that they are offended by such a warning and they therefore do not believe in volcanoes.

Gods existence or otherwise has absolutely nothing to do with peoples agreement or disagreement with His will. Yet this seems to be the foundation of one person’s belief and another persons disbelief. To quote a favourite TY program

"Is that weird or what?"

All Praise The Ancient of Days

MilkMoon · Post by **MilkMoon** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:35 pm

But that’s just it. It is against the Bible and you quoting it and being in agreement with it reveals what you hold to be true and good.

So I am not allowed to agree with it if it is against the Bible? There are quite a few things in the Bible that I like and agree with (I would list them for you but that is not the issue here), but that does not mean that I support the Bible. Likewise, I read the Satanic Bible to see what it had to say and do agree with it on a couple of points, but I don't find it 'true and good', nor am I about to go around flipping crosses upside down.

It is the message that has been given to attract the ones who will be saved and that is the message you have rejected and called foolish.

Didn't you agree that different messages attract different people? Wicca and Buddhism attract me, not Satanism. I told you that in my previous post.

Loving ones enemy does not cause one to lose their ability to discern character, Actually loving an enemy often involves bringing to their minds their character flaws through giving them the convicting Word of God

Let me give you an analogy that helps describe why I think loving everybody would cause you to have a poor judge of character. Think of a teacher in a classroom. Everyone hands in their essays. She or he reads them all, but instead of giving everybody the mark they deserve, she gives everyone an A+. Isn't she a poor judge of what is a well-written essay and which isn't? Which one was original and which was probably copied off from the book? Which one had time and effort put into it, and which one was quickly scrawled in the bus on the way to school? A reviewer or award-giver who loves every single book that falls into their hands would be a poor judge of what is good literature and what isn't. You see what I mean?

And again some of the meanest people are that way because they have never been loved. Often when you show a bit of love to such people it will shock them in a good way.

Very well, this may be true in some situations, but this doesn't always apply. It doesn't mean that if the Jews cuddled the Nazis that they would have let them go. If someone is just being mean to you, they might not classify as your enemy. For me, classifying people are your enemies means they have done something particularity bad. And yet you are still entitled to love them?

I'm not saying hate your enemies, but loving them is pushing it too far. Is that really love? If someone loves the person who is physically torturing them, for example, that would not be called love, but instead a particularly bad case of Stockholm Syndrome.

I must make sure i clarify my position. Firstly the person i was talking about would be like you. They would be in a state of rejecting the Message of God

So the difference between me killing a rejector of the message of Jesus and God killing sinners in the OT. Is that i would be guaranteeing that persons eternal damnation but Those God killed in the OT where not guaranteed eternal damnation.

So wouldn't a believer killing someone who is rejecting the message of god be more justified than when God kills those who never heard the word of God? I understand that Jesus preached the message to the dead humans in hell, but that wouldn't that mean that God had put them in hell in the first place? Why is Jesus more merciful than God?

He has shown His forgiveness in the OT when people are repentant.

The Price of Sin is death. God demonstrated this in

no uncertain terms in the OT. But now we are in a time

of Grace. Where God is showing his mercy and

forgiveness to sinners

He might have shown his forgiveness in the OT, but why is it even more so now, apparently?

Or your favourite: "Oh i made a mistake" I mistakenly lusted for her and i don't know how but we seemed to fall down together and what do you know we ended all naked and having sex. I got no idea how that happened and then i just kind of had her hubby mistakenly killed" But it was all just a mistake really."

Did I say that was the kind of mistake I was talking about? I never said committing adultery was an honest mistake. Please don't put words in my mouth. I will talk more about the term 'mistake' which you are so fond of criticizing below, later on.

Yes He did. But the deaths of the little ones where part of the punishment upon their parents.

How about everyone taking responsibility for themselves? Either way, I think it will be more of a punishment for the parents if they thought they were leaving their children behind at the hands of their enemies.

Also the little ones had eternity with God. So in the end it was a blessing to those innocents to die and get an early mark into eternity with God.

But didn't you say murdering innocents is against the will of God? Ah, but here again, there's a difference between murder and killing isn't there? Whether God ordained it or not, it's still taking the life of a child who most had nothing to do with the current situation. Why is it that when God sanctions an injustice, it's alright, but when people do it, it's not? The children are innocent on both counts, we agreed on that. Fine, maybe the children get an eternity with God, but what kind of person would it take to kill a child?

Strange reply. I can only assume that you have not been reading my posts carefully but been skimming over them

I will admit, I did not read that particular part carefully enough. I apologize. I was thinking of this:

Quote Adstar

Well murdering innocents is against the will of God.

So how could such a person be following the right

religion?

MilkMoon:

Now kill all the boys

and all the women who have slept with a man. Only

the young girls

who are virgins may live; you may keep them for

yourselves. - (Judges 1:21-35 NLT)

Numbers 31:17 (Moses) “Now therefore kill every male

among the little ones, and kill every women that hath known man by

lying with him.”

Quote Adstar

Yes He did order their killing. He ordered the killing of

the people because of the evil they took part in and the

deaths of the innocents where a mercy to them. I believe

all innocents that die have eternity with God. And all the

innocents of Canaan who died had eternity with God.

I'm guessing that your answer to my error above still applies to this situation, that the girls were kept alive to become slaves. Well then, why not keep the male children alive to be slaves as well in this situation, rather than kill them? I believe I asked this before. There are two ways I can see this:

1. The girl's lives were more somehow more important than the boys, so they were spared but the boys were killed (possibly for fear of what would happen and how they would behave when they turned into men)

2. The young boys were granted the blessing of an early eternity with God, while the girls didn't and remained behind to suffer through the loss of their family and their futures as slaves.

Yes when that someone is a messenger of God giving a serious message from God and people are denigrating them because they hate the message.... just like atheists mock and denigrate Christians who are giving a serious message of God are worthy of being put to death.

You know, if you were hoping to convert someone by replying to my posts, I think this would definitely throw off a lot of people.

1. They were young boys, and lots of people would admit they did or said stupid things when they were younger. 'Baldhead' is a very childish insult, and besides how did they know he was giving them a serious message? What if it went against their own teachings, or they thought he was trying to gain control over people using his message?

2. Have you ever considered that maybe it was the way they were presenting the message that caused people to reject it? In regards to you and I; one, I am not an atheist, and two, when have I mocked or denigrated you personally, or Christians in general? I might have criticized God, the Bible, and religion, but not the followers. There is the exception of the hypocrites, but I explicitly stated that I know not everyone is like that. And besides, to denigrate means to criticize unfairly. I'm not the only person asking these questions, and if it's a matter of my soul, I should have every right to find out more.

just like atheists mock and denigrate Christians who are giving a serious message of God are worthy of being put to death.

And is the vise versa true? Are Christians that spit on non-believers or mock people of different beliefs, such as reincarnation, worthy of being put to death? It's alright for you - before you reply, I don't mean you or me specifically, I'm speaking colloquially - to insult, mock, and denigrate us, our Gods (eg. Hindu Gods) or our beliefs (Neopaganism, Athiesm, etc), but it's the guillotine for you if you dare criticize ours. Is that it?

Besides, if Christians deny homosexuals their rights, attempt to outlaw reproductive rights such as abortion, attempt to deny women from obtaining equal rights, and try to convert others and impose their beliefs (Biblical or not) on other people, how can they honestly expect to hold out for universal popularity anyway?

He is under no such teaching.

Isn't it God's job to set an example for us human beings? How can a parent who smokes all the time (as you gave this example previously) tell their children never to smoke and expect them to follow through, then be angry when they don't?

I don't expect God to turn his cheek, but when looking at this from a broader perspective, if all God's rules for our morality don't apply to him, does that mean God basically has no morality?

Where does it say in those scriptures to beat them excessively? Nowhere.

But where does it say in the scriptures to not beat them excessively? You tell me. That's my whole point. You are free to interpret. If you beat your children excessively, apparently, you are not going against Biblical teachings. This site makes it clear that uncalled for abuse is against the Bible What does the Bible say about child abuse?, and it did placate me somewhat, but this is not in regards to actual laws against discipline. And what of the countless times children are told to be obedient to their parents and how they are to be killed if they disobey, rebel, or belittle their parents although there is no mention of what the parents were actually like and how they treated their child?

Well i agree with the guidance of scripture and the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

Even if the guidance of scripture mentions the word 'rod' and allows people freedom to translate whether it means that figuratively, literally, or literally but with a reed-like rod. The quote from Proverbs says that 'he will not die'. You don't need to die from being beaten with a rod. You might just break a bone or two.

If they believe that the teaching is right and good but they sin because of their faulty human state then they are still forgiven. But if they don't really believe what they preach but it is only a job they do to secure a living then go out and commit adultery then they are indeed Hypocrites and not forgiven.

This is where I don't understand why you attack me for using the word 'mistake'. Saying that people sin because of their faulty human state makes it look like they don't hold any responsibility for their actions, that they could simply blame it on their 'faulty human state'. If they believed the teaching was right and good, but did it anyway, for them, this would be called a mistake. Calling something a mistake does not mean you don't take responsibility for your actions. I don't see where you came to that conclusion. Saying that someone sinned because of their faulty human state means you they don't really take responsibility for their actions. And besides, when I said mistake, I wasn't specifying. I didn't have anything in mind, I was simply speaking about it in terms of forgiveness for previous errors.

I do not believe anyone who commits such acts is saved. Now maybe such people might come to be saved later but i doubt it.

But where is the proof that they would not be saved? Didn't you say that if they believe the teaching is right and good but go out and sin anyway, they would still be forgiven? Where can we draw the line?

I am not here to talk for other religions. Ask a muslim or a rabbi about these things.

I was giving you examples of hypocrisy, of preaching one thing and doing another. If one is so pious and has such a deep connection with God, why would they do these things? Do they have no control over their human state?

"mistake" (sin responsibility denial) word

Again, where do you come to this conclusion?

Here is a snippet from Wikipedia defining 'error' and 'mistake':

One reference differentiates between "error" and "mistake" as follows:

An 'error' is a deviation from accuracy or correctness. A 'mistake' is an error caused by a fault: the fault being misjudgment, carelessness, or forgetfulness. Now, say that I run a stop sign because I was in a hurry, and wasn't concentrating, and the police stop me, that is a mistake. If, however, I try to park in an area with conflicting signs, and I get a ticket because I was incorrect on my interpretation of what the signs meant, that would be an error. The first time it would be an error. The second time it would be a mistake since I should have known better.[1]

There you go. How is calling something a mistake denying responsibility? If I said 'error', that would be responsibility denial. Making a mistake means doing something you may or may not have known was wrong. You would have known it was wrong to run a stop sign, but you were in a hurry and not concentrating. That defines as 'mistake'. Sin is just specific to religion. It seems to me like you're just nit-picking.

Willfull sin is not just sin. It is an attitude towards sin. It is pride in ones sin and a spirit of rebelliousness towards Gods will.

Very well, but that's not what I meant. I meant someone who continues to drink alcohol, for example, even though they know this is wrong and against the will of God, continue to do it because they do not want to break the habit or believe that God is merciful and will forgive them for their sins? They know his decree is right, so according to you, they will still be forgiven, so why should any Christian attempt not to sin then, if they will be forgiven for their sins anyway? From page 3 of this forum, you said 'And I believe once one believes that Jesus has provided atonement for their sins they are forgiven, no need to beg God for mercy on friday saturday or sunday.'

And now you said 'If they believe that the teaching is right and good but they sin because of their faulty human state then they are still forgiven'. So if a Christian agrees that God's decree is right and good, then go out and commit all the sins they'd like, they are still forgiven? They can do everything non-believers do, but as long as they believe in God, they get to go to heaven after it instead of hell. Sounds like a pretty good deal.

It is still noble however to resist sin. It's making a statement about what one believes to be right and good, even thought we fall down again and again.

I will answer this below, in regards to adultery/lust.

Christians stand up and declare sodomy an abomination to God and are labelled homophobes for it. When in fact they are giving sure warning of the judgement of God in the hope that some homosexuals will seek embrace the forgiveness of God and be saved.

Well these homosexuals obviously do not follow the same beliefs these Christians do. And frankly, as long as they are consenting adults, it's nobody's business what goes on in their beds. And either way, why is sodomy and therefore homosexuality an abomination to God? How are they hurting anybody?

However, in Genesis, when God was about to destroy the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and Lot was trying to convince the homosexuals to give up their ways, what did he tell them? Genesis 19:8 "Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof."

'You can do what you like with them'. Their consent is not given, and Lot gives them the reins to do literally do what they'd like to his daughters. So homosexuality is this horrific, serious sin, but offering your two virgin girls up for rape isn't? Especially since this is also enticing them into pre-maritial sex, which from what I understand, is a sin. It doesn't seem to matter whether the act of sex was consensual or not, as long as it's between a man and woman rather than between a man and a man.

And since we are on the topic of homosexuality, I have something else to say. I read this somewhere, and before you accuse me of plagiarism (which you seem to misunderstand anyway, as using a source that provides specific Biblical quotes on certain topics is not plagiarism) I honestly don't remember where I read this from, but it was a pretty good argument.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10:

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders...

It clearly states here that two of the people who would not be accepted into heaven would be adulterers or homosexual offenders. Correct? However, in Luke, 16:18 it says that "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery."

Yet how many church members have been divorced and remarried, and how many churches actually object to performing a ceremony for someone who remarries? They'd most certainly object to a homosexual marriage, so why not a remarriage either, if it is considered adultery? Why is one sin considered worse than the other, if they were both listed next to each other and both are enough to keep someone out of heaven?

It is still noble however to resist sin. It's making a statement about what one believes to be right and good, even thought we fall down again and again.

Yes and they sin when they do. They're guilty.

But they still commit a sin even when they don't look? Just being tempted is a sin? I thought caving in to the temptation was the sin. When they avert their eyes, aren't they resisting the sin?

Of course lets not be sexists about this woman also sin when they do this.

I used men in the example because the Bible (and the Quran too) are written from a male perspective. I just went along with it. Of course women also sin when they do this, however another reason I used men as an example was because it's less common to see women ogling men on the street.

Human beings should look upon other people as human beings not sex objects. When a man ogles at a woman he is not acknowledging her as a thinking loving emotional human being, He is just using her as a piece of flesh.

And when a man offers up his virgin daughters to a group of homosexuals in hope of steering them to the 'straight' path, he is also just using her as a piece of flesh.

I was not talking about men ogling women, which as a woman myself, I do find offensive. When I wrote that, I'd quoted you as such "To act to control ones carnal desires means that one must first think of carnal desire within their minds."

What I meant when I said humans are generally sexual creatures, I meant that it doesn't seem logical to say that people never think of desire within their minds. It doesn't seem to matter whether they control it or not, if they think of it for the smallest of seconds before banishing the thought, they are held as guilty of sinning. Lust is a very normal human reaction, I do not say that meaning that people should embrace or accept it. When they feel it, they control it. And didn't you agree that it is noble to resist? I had already explained this after I said that humans were sexual creatures, but you took what I said out of context.

But to be angry at a sinner justifies Gods wrath upon you. As you judge so shall ye be judged.

Justifies God's wrath about me for what? For being angry at the evil, sadistic, and malevolent?

Anger at theft, good. Anger at the thief not good.

But theft cannot exist without the thief. The thief can exist without the theft. Unless they're kleptomaniac and cannot control it, they made a choice in choosing to steal. I might be able to forgive a poor person for stealing food or a bit of money the need to survive, but how about the ultra-rich that steal from other people? The greedy, the swindlers? Do I not have a right to be angry at them? It's like saying I should be angry at the gun, not the person holding it. A gun cannot fire a bullet by itself, it needs someone to pull the trigger. Why should I be angry at the gun? An inanimate object that could be used for self-defense? Why can't I be angry at the murderer? Likewise, why should I be angry at theft, which is nothing but a word, rather than the actual thief for choosing to define that word?

YES. Everyone deserves the eternal death penalty. Every human being who rejects the forgiveness of God through the atonement of the Messiah Jesus will have that death penalty. Only through being forgiven our sins can we have eternity with a perfect God. This is a foundational belief of followers of the Messiah Jesus.

So since getting angry with someone labels you a murderer, and is something worth of the death penalty unless you believe in the right message (whichever the 'right' one is), does that mean that murderers would make it to heaven if they believe in God? I don't know whether you'd follow my line of thinking or not, so let me explain. Anger at a person labels you a murderer. You are forgiven, if you believe. So let's say you are an actual murderer. You believe, are you forgiven? And as I asked above, where do you draw the line? Would a pedophile priest make it to heaven if they believe?

But you would also be facing judgement for your unlawful killing of him

My unlawful killing? It is not lawful to kill someone who robs young children of their innocence? How about if I did it to protect not only the child in question, but other children elsewhere who might be future victims?

He would be judged for his sin against the child. But you would also be facing judgement for your unlawful killing of him.

So he'd be going to hell for harming innocents, and I would be going to hell for attempting to protect my loved one and the loved ones of other people? How is that even remotely the same?

As a Christian we are called to give over judgement to God.

If what I told you actually happened as opposed to nearly happening, I would not be able to hand my judgement over to God, knowing I could have stopped the man from continuing to damage the lives of young children and didn't, because I handed the matter over to a God who would most likely forgive him if he was a believer or became one. And God wouldn't have protected her or children like her, not in this world. How many countless children does this happen to anyway? And how many times does God intervene? Exactly, none.

If God proved that he does care and actually intervened in our lives to destroy wicked people, as he did in the OT, or if he just least made the world a better place where this kind of thing wasn't even though of anyway, I would have faith.

No your not supposed to love sin. Or love someone because of their sin

But didn't you say we are to love the sinner and hate the sin?

But you should be prepared to forgive someone who repents for their evil doings. Yeah i know i such a case it would be incredibly difficult.

It would be more than incredibly difficult. I would never in a million years be able to forgive someone who did that, if they actually did do it. I don't see how anyone could. If you have/had a daughter or sister, would you be prepared to forgive someone like that? How could anyone? It's unnatural. Go up to a mother bear and kick one of her cubs, then see how she reacts. Actually, we don't even have to use animals. Just walk up to a mother and knock over the carriage she's pushing with her baby in it, then see if she can forgive you. Especially if the baby gets seriously hurt or dies.

And besides, how could I be forgiving them if I am consoling myself by telling myself that God would carry out judgement on them and would be sending them to hell? That's not truly forgiveness, now is it?

And there are some things that are unforgivable.

Are they to do with the existence or non existence of God? Nope.

I never said they were to do with the existence of God. For the record, not everything I talk about is in relation to myself. I do often get angry on the behalf of others. It's not always about me. Examples are:

1. I'm not a non-believer. I do believe in God. I think I mentioned this before. I just can't understand what kind of person it would take to make such as messed up world. If you care so much, wouldn't it kill you, seeing the way the world is, and always was, if you have so much mercy? I know it kills me. I know that if I were made God for a day, I would make the world a million times better. Or perhaps not make it at all. One of the reasons I started turning against religion was because of the intolerance of people of other religions and the treatment of non-believers, children, women, homosexuals, etc. I am not defending non-believers because I am one. It is simply one of the things that threw me off and made me truly question God's mercy and fairness.

2. For all my previous talk, I am not homosexual or lustful. I didn't think this was relevant, but so you understand that I'm not talking about this from a self-centered point of view, I am actually asexual. Possibly an 'other'. It's a bit of a personal thing to reveal, but I'm trying to prove a point.

3. I cannot think of a big mistake that I have committed, but I have seen so many people make big ones and feel deep remorse over them later. I was trying to see it from their perspective. I already discussed the world 'mistake' with you, but so that you don't go about pointing fingers at it again, those people who committed a fault (better?) but regretted or tried to make up for it later, maybe even years later, I see as good. Because they learnt from their previous faults.

4. I am from an upper middle-class family. I'm very lucky to say that I'm very well off. I'm not saying this to show off. When I was talking of inequalities and how the world was designed to be unfair and unjust, I wasn't talking about myself, contrary to what you might have believed. I've always been lucky, but I've always seen and heard of so many people so much worse off than me. As a result, I've always asked myself why. One of my why's was why the world was made so unequal. No mortal could really answer me, so I turned the question to God. When that failed, I came to my own conclusion.

So, I was never talking about myself questioning the existence of God. I am quite sure that there is a higher power there that made everything the way it was. I was talking about those who do actually question his existence, and if they were actually allowed to think that way. Do not jump to conclusions, please.

Disagreements with the will of God.

Yes, I do disagree with the will of God. What did God do before creating the world and everyone in it? If he was all that was there, what compelled him to create? Was he bored, lonely, depressed? All human emotions, but what else would make him create us, and the world in general? If he doesn't need or want anything or anyone, what made him make this mess to begin with? Besides, doesn't Matthew 7:18 say that "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit"? God is perfect, why did he make us so imperfect? If he knew we were going to destroy ourselves and destroy others, why did he make us? He knew this was going to happen, why did he do it? And again, you might bring up the argument on free will, but just the other day someone I knew who made a decision they thought would make them happy, found out that it made them unhappy. If people had no free will they would have no choice but to make the right decision which would have made them happy. And why is there right or wrong to choose from either way? Why did God give us free reins to choose evil? Knowing that many of us would? For what greater good?

You might say, as you have said before, that it's because he's working out his plan to restore the world to it's perfect state. If that's what he wants, why doesn't he just destroy us all now? What is he trying to prove?

So yes, I do disagree with his will.

Very little is ever put forward by atheists or theists about the existence of God.

You seem to be a little confused. There's a different between atheism, and agnosticism. And as for very little being put forward, Google 'existence of god' or 'arguments against the existence of god' and see what comes up.

99.9% of discussions on God are about objections to the expressed will of God revealed in the Bible

And where do you get this statistic from? Or did you just make it up off the top of your head?

Many atheists look upon God as they look upon adolph hitler. They seem to have the argument "God is mean therefore God does not exist". How would you look upon a person who after reading mien kamph and stories of WW2 conclude that hitler never existed because i hate his book and i hate his actions.

You cannot compare questioning God's existence to Hitler's. That's just absurd. Nothing personal, but it is. We know without a shred of doubt that Hilter existed. There is solid, tangible proof and countless witnesses. He was a human, and an notorious historical figure. Nobody can deny he existed. But God? No proof. People can deny he existed and can bring up convincing arguments. 'God is mean and therefore cannot exist.' That's not the case. Look into the atheistic arguments more, as by your quote here, it seems like you haven't, I might be wrong, but that's certainly what it looks like.

From a quick Google, this is one of the things I came up with.

Psychologist and skeptic Susan Blackmore replies to what you were saying exactly:

“God is so nasty,” she says. “That doesn’t prove he doesn’t exist, of course. But the inconsistencies and incompatibilities in what people believe just strike me as bizarre. God is supposed to be wonderful, loving, and caring. And yet the book supposedly coming from him is full of kill the infidel and burn people in hell if they don’t do the right thing. People believe these nasty and incompatible things. Is that an argument against God? It certainly weakens the idea.”

Here is the full link to the article. You may or may not want to read it. But this answers your quote in full. Arguments Against God? - Science and Religion Today

For people like me, we believe God does exist even though we admit this is unknowable, but we doubt the religious scriptures and doubt whether he actually cares about what goes down here or not. I believe we are called agnostics or deists. Deism became quite prominent in the 17th and 18th centuries during the Age of Enlightenment, when people accepted the existence of a creator on the basis of reason, but rejected belief in a supernatural deity that intervenes in the universe. I'm not sure whether that describes my viewpoint or not, but it comes the closest.

Gods existence or otherwise has absolutely nothing to do with peoples agreement or disagreement with His will.

Not true. People who do not believe in God might do so because they find it hard to believe that anyone loving or merciful would make such a twisted world where injustice is essential. If we are to believe that this greater power exists that cares, we would need to find some proof for that. God is apparently just sitting back and watching these happen, which would be his 'will', and therefore people question his existence.

You know what? Let me give it to you in a nutshell:

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?

Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing?

Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?

Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?

Then why call him God?”

-- Epicurus

This is the argument.

Adstar · Post by **Adstar** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:49 am

Adstar Said:

Oh "one of my lists"?? One of your lists hey?
Milkmoon

You sound a little angry. Careful, you would not want to be labeled a murderer

Well I have been angry at people, I admit it. I am a murderer. Guilty as charged. It’s not good, It’s bad. I thank God for His forgiveness through the Messiah Jesus.

See I have labelled myself as one guilty of murder.

Adstar Said:

You read the bible and came up with them Yes?? Is this your work? Your investigation? Or simply Plagiarism.

Milkmoon

Did I say that?

I said 'one of my lists'. If you were to ask me, I would have told you.

You must be new to forums. I have been on forums for about 10 years now, probably contributed to 30 to 40 forums. And all required Quotation when ever one was quoting something from another source. When ever I quote scripture I give the book and verse number, Now what you did was plagiarism, You never quoted your source but stated these where your lists. You are now attempting to deny what you have clearly done. No one can fault me for stating this. Instead of admitting what you did you bring up false arguments in a vain attempt to deflect personal responsibility. Is it because you actually believe you have done no wrong or is it simply the fact that you’re in a discussion with a Christian and you must never be seen to be corrected by a Theist?

Milkmoon

The first part pretty much sums up my whole point.

[QUOTE]

Direct quote from site:

One has to wonder what it would mean if even one of these apparent contradictions is the result of an error made by one of the original Biblical authors. *Would this mean that the Bible is not really the truth it claims to be? *I, for one, would have to say that errors in the Bible, if any exist, do not reflect on whether the Bible represents the truth of God. *The Biblical authors were most definitely inspired by God, but being inspired by God does not mean that you are perfect and never make mistakes. *No reasonable person is claiming that God Himself wrote the Bible, dictating every passage into the ears of the authors. *The details of what they wrote often came from their own memories or what they heard from other people. *There certainly are occasions where the authors heard directly from God or Jesus, and then you could certainly say that this information came directly from God (as Jesus was a physical manifestation of God), but there are no contradictions in this information.

This basically proved my whole point.

Point 1. Good of you to start quoting sources.

Point 2. We are in a discussion, You and Me. Not you Me and the opinion of the author of that web site you quoted. They do not speak for me and I do not speak for them. So please in future Quote me.

Quote bible verse

his evil people, who refuse to hear My words, who follow the dictates of their hearts, and walk after other gods to serve them and worship them,

Milkmoon

Since you put this quote in bold form, the first thing I saw was how God described 'evil people'.

Not 'those who harm others' or anything of the sort, but 'those who refuse to hear my words' - perhaps because they were raised to hear other words or follow in the footsteps of their parents, and those 'who follow the dictates of their hearts' - those who follow what they believe is right, which should supposedly lead them to the Bible, and those who 'walk after other Gods to serve them and worship them'.

Once again you did not read the scriptures I posted. I posted this scripture so that it would be in Context to the other verses. What does it say in the second verse of the passage i quoted?

Jeremiah 13

9 “Thus says the LORD: ‘In this manner I will ruin the pride of Judah and the great pride of Jerusalem.

God was talking about the tribe of Judah descendants of Israel people born into Torah Judaism. His chosen people. He was not talking about people raised up as buddhist or hindus. He was talking about people who where the first recipients of His scriptures.

Scripture quote:

And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together,” says the LORD. “I will not pity nor spare nor have mercy, but will destroy them.”

Milkmoon

Because they did not believe in him? Is this really worth responding to with such violence and anger? Why did he not send them a prophet, messenger, or angel to give them a chance to repent or turn back to him?

Yes they did not believe the truth but believed and embraced lies. Also He did send prophets to them to teach them and given them warning. As Jesus said (who is God)

Matthew 23

37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

Milkmoon

Again, this goes back to how God actually described the wicked and evil. And what wrong did they commit? Believing in something else because their fathers and forefathers believed in this? Aren't we raised as children to be obedient to our parents and therefore their beliefs, and doesn't the Bible state this as well?

When a person received the true message of God and rejects it as being immoral as you have done with your embrace of the satanic denigration of the grace of God through the atonement of the Messiah Jesus, They have done a great wrong, greater then their sins. It does not matter what we are raised as. Once we are given the Message of Jesus then we are responsible for our own response to His revelation. I was raised in a devout catholic home, my uncle is a priest and I was an alter boy for 10 years and I probably would have gone on to become a priest, but I read the Bible and I was put on the spot by it’s message. So I renounced catholicism and became a follower of the Messiah Jesus.

Adstar said:

When does God give mercy? When does He show His kindness upon people? When they Repent and turn form their evil ways

Milkmoon

One last time, what is his definition of evil?

God’s will defines what is good and what is evil. His will is the perfect template that all are measured by.

Milkmoon

From the quote you gave me from Jerimiah, God's definition of evil might not be the same as yours or mine, or maybe even the law's. Why is God's mercy so debatable? If someone is described as kind, that does not mean they are only kind to their family and horrible to everyone else. Someone described as kind is someone who has kindness for everyone, and not only the people of their kin.

Likewise, with God, his believers are granted heaven, whereas people who form alliances with those other than him are granted hell, regardless of whether they committed actual evil or not.

All men commit sin, All men have done evil. All men need the forgiveness of God to have eternity with Him. His justice cannot allow an unforgiven one to exist in eternity with Him.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Adstar · Post by **Adstar** » Mon Oct 31, 2011 6:02 am

Adstar:

But that’s just it. It is against the Bible and you quoting it and being in agreement with it reveals what you hold to be true and good.
Milkmoon:

So I am not allowed to agree with it if it is against the Bible? There are quite a few things in the Bible that I like and agree with (I would list them for you but that is not the issue here), but that does not mean that I support the Bible. Likewise, I read the Satanic Bible to see what it had to say and do agree with it on a couple of points, but I don't find it 'true and good', nor am I about to go around flipping crosses upside down.

You can believe, as you will to believe. But you believe the grace of God through the atonement of the Messiah Jesus is evil. Therefore you have personally rejected the love of the truth.

I does not matter if you’re a satanist or not, you agree with the satanic rightings that denigrate the amazing grace of God. And what ever you agree with you find true and good.

Adstar:

It is the message that has been given to attract the ones who will be saved and that is the message you have rejected and called foolish.
Milkmoon:

Didn't you agree that different messages attract different people? Wicca and Buddhism attract me, not Satanism. I told you that in my previous post.

It does not matter what religion you are attracted to. In this case you agree with the satanic righting that denigrated the love of the truth that is revealed in the bible.

Adstar:

Loving ones enemy does not cause one to lose their ability to discern character, Actually loving an enemy often involves bringing to their minds their character flaws through giving them the convicting Word of God
Milkmoon:

Let me give you an analogy that helps describe why I think loving everybody would cause you to have a poor judge of character. Think of a teacher in a classroom. Everyone hands in their essays. She or he reads them all, but instead of giving everybody the mark they deserve, she gives everyone an A+. Isn't she a poor judge of what is a well-written essay and which isn't? Which one was original and which was probably copied off from the book? Which one had time and effort put into it, and which one was quickly scrawled in the bus on the way to school? A reviewer or award-giver who loves every single book that falls into their hands would be a poor judge of what is good literature and what isn't. You see what I mean?

A loving teacher would give them all accurate marks to let them know if they needed to improve or not. Christians often love others by using the word of God to convict them of sin. So love can often be seen as hard love. Often it is seen as hate. So the example you used above does not mesh with Christian love.

Adstar:

And again some of the meanest people are that way because they have never been loved. Often when you show a bit of love to such people it will shock them in a good way.
Milkmoon

Very well, this may be true in some situations, but this doesn't always apply. It doesn't mean that if the Jews cuddled the Nazis that they would have let them go.

Maybe not. But if they did “cuddle” the nazis maybe some of the nazis would have become confused, After being brain washed that Jews where their enemies only interested in their enslavement and economic ruin, experiencing a kind word and some caring might have convinced some that they had been told lies.

Milkmoon

I'm not saying hate your enemies, but loving them is pushing it too far. Is that really love? If someone loves the person who is physically torturing them, for example, that would not be called love, but instead a particularly bad case of Stockholm Syndrome.

In the Stockholm terrorist incident some of the victims started to identify and support the evil that the terrorists where engaged in. This is different from forgiving them. You do not forgive someone for doing what you think is right and support.

Christians would never love their enemies by supporting their evil acts. But they would always keep the door open to forgive them and hope for their eternal forgiveness. In the Stockholm syndrome one both loves the person and their sins. Christians love the sinner but do not love their sins.

Adstar:

I must make sure i clarify my position. Firstly the person i was talking about would be like you. They would be in a state of rejecting the Message of God

So the difference between me killing a rejector of the message of Jesus and God killing sinners in the OT. Is that i would be guaranteeing that persons eternal damnation but Those God killed in the OT where not guaranteed eternal damnation.
Milkmoon:

So wouldn't a believer killing someone who is rejecting the message of god be more justified than when God kills those who never heard the word of God?

No.

God wants sinners to be saved. We want all people who are rejectors of the Love of the truth to have as long a life as possible, because as long as these people have life we can have hope for them. (even if it is near no hope it is not Zero hope) Once you kill a rejector of the truth they are doomed. A Christian who kills a rejector of the atonement of the Messiah Jesus has just gone 100% against the will of God.

Milkmoon

I understand that Jesus preached the message to the dead humans in hell, but that wouldn't that mean that God had put them in hell in the first place? Why is Jesus more merciful than God?

Jesus who is God made flesh was revealing Gods mercy. Yes He put them into hell because He could not compromise His absolute justice. But He could redeem them from Hell if they acknowledged His will and sought mercy. That opportunity came when Jesus preached to them.

Milkmoon:

He might have shown his forgiveness in the OT, but why is it even more so now, apparently?

Because that’s what His eternal plan was always moving towards. His current mercy covers both the OT and the NT era’s.

2 Peter 3

9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

God is not willing that anyone should perish in hell but that all should come to repentance and be saved. Even the worst of sinners.

Adstar:

Yes He did. But the deaths of the little ones where part of the punishment upon their parents.

Milkmoon:

How about everyone taking responsibility for themselves? Either way, I think it will be more of a punishment for the parents if they thought they were leaving their children behind at the hands of their enemies.

But that then would have been punishment on the innocent children. To leave them orphans in the hands of people who killed their parents. If I where in their position I would rather die and be with God then to live a life like that.

Adstar:

Also the little ones had eternity with God. So in the end it was a blessing to those innocents to die and get an early mark into eternity with God.
Milkmoon:

Why is it that when God sanctions an injustice, it's alright, but when people do it, it's not?

Because when God orders it, it is not an injustice. God has total situational awareness. We do not. We do well if we follow His guidance. Because His guidance is correct.

Milkmoon:

The children are innocent on both counts, we agreed on that. Fine, maybe the children get an eternity with God, but what kind of person would it take to kill a child?

Well we know that there are people in this world who actually enjoy killing children. Happily they are rare. But many normal people, when ordered, will kill Children. Many World War 2 bomber crews killed thousands of innocent kids, they often burnt them to death with incendiaries, horrible way to die. Many artillery crews carrying out bombardments of towns and cities killed thousands. And today many abortionists kill tens of millions of innocents simply because they are in inconvenience to their mothers life plan. Thousands of people can be made to kill children. It is surprisingly easy in fact.

MilkMoon:

Now kill all the boys

and all the women who have slept with a man. Only

the young girls

who are virgins may live; you may keep them for

yourselves. - (Judges 1:21-35 NLT)
Quote Adstar

Yes He did order their killing. He ordered the killing of

the people because of the evil they took part in and the

deaths of the innocents where a mercy to them. I believe

all innocents that die have eternity with God. And all the

innocents of Canaan who died had eternity with God.

Milkmoon:

I'm guessing that your answer to my error above still applies to this situation, that the girls were kept alive to become slaves. Well then, why not keep the male children alive to be slaves as well in this situation, rather than kill them? I believe I asked this before. There are two ways I can see this:

1. The girl's lives were more somehow more important than the boys, so they were spared but the boys were killed (possibly for fear of what would happen and how they would behave when they turned into men)

2. The young boys were granted the blessing of an early eternity with God, while the girls didn't and remained behind to suffer through the loss of their family and their futures as slaves.

Well the order to keep the girls did come from Moses. As the scripture did say when they came back with the woman, boys and girls Moses was angry with them because they had not totally destroyed the Midianites. That seems to have been the will of God to destroy the Midianites completely. I believe Moses made a call at that moment to keep the girls alive because once they died out the Midianites would then be destroyed. So it turned into a delayed destruction, but still destruction. I would say Moses eared on that occasion. Moses was a man who had sinned against God before and because of this God did not allow Him to cross the Jordan to go into the Promised Land as punishment. He never lived in the Promised Land.

Adstar:

Yes when that someone is a messenger of God giving a serious message from God and people are denigrating them because they hate the message.... just like atheists mock and denigrate Christians who are giving a serious message of God are worthy of being put to death.

Milkmoon:

You know, if you were hoping to convert someone by replying to my posts, I think this would definitely throw off a lot of people.

Might do just that. But if it does then it was always going to happen like that. I am not a smorgasbord Christian picking and choosing or denying and ignoring parts of the Bible. I am not here to tickle peoples ears with a hippy new age jesus/god who clearly does not exist. Mocking a true messenger of God is the same as mocking the Message of God, because a true messenger of God is giving the message of God. So yes, denigrating a true messenger of God is worthy of death.

To be Continued.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days