What an odd tale from CERN.
BBC News - Speed-of-light results under scrutiny at Cern
The numbers come down to claiming that had it been light in a vacuum travelling the same distance, it would have been 20 metres behind the neutrino beam had they set out together. They can't, of course, test this directly because the path isn't in a vacuum and the rock the beam goes through is opaque to photons.
They also claim they know the distance travelled to the nearest 20cm[1], so there's a factor of a hundred in their effect which is vast.
Can they have mis-located their Italian lab by an entire 20 metres? It's hard to imagine how but it's harder still to imagine they haven't.
[1] quoting their paper: The distance between the target focal point and the OPERA reference frame was precisely measured in 2010 following a dedicated geodesy campaign. The coordinates of the origin of the OPERA reference frame were measured by establishing GPS benchmarks at the two sides of the ~10 km long Gran Sasso highway tunnel and by transporting their positions with a terrestrial traverse down to the OPERA detector. A common analysis in the ETRF2000 reference frame of the 3D coordinates of the OPERA origin and of the target focal point allowed the determination of this distance to be (730534.61 ± 0.20) m. The 20 cm uncertainty is dominated by the long underground link between the outdoors GPS benchmarks and the benchmark at the OPERA detector.
High-energy neutrinos faster than light?
High-energy neutrinos faster than light?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
High-energy neutrinos faster than light?
spot;1370725 wrote: What an odd tale from CERN.
BBC News - Speed-of-light results under scrutiny at Cern
The numbers come down to claiming that had it been light in a vacuum travelling the same distance, it would have been 20 metres behind the neutrino beam had they set out together. They can't, of course, test this directly because the path isn't in a vacuum and the rock the beam goes through is opaque to photons.
They also claim they know the distance travelled to the nearest 20cm[1], so there's a factor of a hundred in their effect which is vast.
Can they have mis-located their Italian lab by an entire 20 metres? It's hard to imagine how but it's harder still to imagine they haven't.
[1] quoting their paper: The distance between the target focal point and the OPERA reference frame was precisely measured in 2010 following a dedicated geodesy campaign. The coordinates of the origin of the OPERA reference frame were measured by establishing GPS benchmarks at the two sides of the ~10 km long Gran Sasso highway tunnel and by transporting their positions with a terrestrial traverse down to the OPERA detector. A common analysis in the ETRF2000 reference frame of the 3D coordinates of the OPERA origin and of the target focal point allowed the determination of this distance to be (730534.61 ± 0.20) m. The 20 cm uncertainty is dominated by the long underground link between the outdoors GPS benchmarks and the benchmark at the OPERA detector.
Better they'd had time to validate the maths in private than checking all of their assumptions in front of the tabloid press.
BBC News - Speed-of-light results under scrutiny at Cern
The numbers come down to claiming that had it been light in a vacuum travelling the same distance, it would have been 20 metres behind the neutrino beam had they set out together. They can't, of course, test this directly because the path isn't in a vacuum and the rock the beam goes through is opaque to photons.
They also claim they know the distance travelled to the nearest 20cm[1], so there's a factor of a hundred in their effect which is vast.
Can they have mis-located their Italian lab by an entire 20 metres? It's hard to imagine how but it's harder still to imagine they haven't.
[1] quoting their paper: The distance between the target focal point and the OPERA reference frame was precisely measured in 2010 following a dedicated geodesy campaign. The coordinates of the origin of the OPERA reference frame were measured by establishing GPS benchmarks at the two sides of the ~10 km long Gran Sasso highway tunnel and by transporting their positions with a terrestrial traverse down to the OPERA detector. A common analysis in the ETRF2000 reference frame of the 3D coordinates of the OPERA origin and of the target focal point allowed the determination of this distance to be (730534.61 ± 0.20) m. The 20 cm uncertainty is dominated by the long underground link between the outdoors GPS benchmarks and the benchmark at the OPERA detector.
Better they'd had time to validate the maths in private than checking all of their assumptions in front of the tabloid press.
High-energy neutrinos faster than light?
Bryn Mawr;1370726 wrote: Better they'd had time to validate the maths in private than checking all of their assumptions in front of the tabloid press.
They appear to have spent some months worrying about it and put the paper onto the Internet to generate feedback from other researchers.
Because the lab's underground they can only get GPS fixes to a couple of basepoints kilometres from the equipment. I'll look at where they've detailed their trigonometry: http://etrs89.ensg.ign.fr/memo-V7.pdf - that might tie down their practise.
eta: practise yes, but details of the extrapolation from their baseline no. Nothing to check their trigonometry, and that's what needs verifying.
They appear to have spent some months worrying about it and put the paper onto the Internet to generate feedback from other researchers.
Because the lab's underground they can only get GPS fixes to a couple of basepoints kilometres from the equipment. I'll look at where they've detailed their trigonometry: http://etrs89.ensg.ign.fr/memo-V7.pdf - that might tie down their practise.
eta: practise yes, but details of the extrapolation from their baseline no. Nothing to check their trigonometry, and that's what needs verifying.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
High-energy neutrinos faster than light?
I think the more fascinating thing is all the speculations from media on such things as time travel and such that are popping up in the wake of the initial posting.
Perhaps, somehow, the particles are accelerated by proximity to the molecules of the rock through which they travel.
Would be interesting to be able to reproduce in a near-vacuum.
Perhaps, somehow, the particles are accelerated by proximity to the molecules of the rock through which they travel.
Would be interesting to be able to reproduce in a near-vacuum.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
High-energy neutrinos faster than light?
LarsMac;1370879 wrote: I think the more fascinating thing is all the speculations from media on such things as time travel and such that are popping up in the wake of the initial posting. I've seen several bits of media speculation, I couldn't make the slightest sense of any of it, they might as well have been speaking Swahili for all I understood.
Perhaps, somehow, the particles are accelerated by proximity to the molecules of the rock through which they travel.
Would be interesting to be able to reproduce in a near-vacuum.I'm trying to think of any circumstance where something goes faster because the medium's denser. Nothing's sprung to mind. And if the neutrinos are already at least travelling at the speed of light, presumably they have to be unaware of what's ahead, or the limit's breached simply by that information. So they'd only get kicked faster if the rock behind had a repellent effect. That, presumably, would be an entirely new type of force to go with electromagnetism and gravity and those two nuclear forces - definitely a wow discovery, a new force in nature.
Perhaps, somehow, the particles are accelerated by proximity to the molecules of the rock through which they travel.
Would be interesting to be able to reproduce in a near-vacuum.I'm trying to think of any circumstance where something goes faster because the medium's denser. Nothing's sprung to mind. And if the neutrinos are already at least travelling at the speed of light, presumably they have to be unaware of what's ahead, or the limit's breached simply by that information. So they'd only get kicked faster if the rock behind had a repellent effect. That, presumably, would be an entirely new type of force to go with electromagnetism and gravity and those two nuclear forces - definitely a wow discovery, a new force in nature.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
High-energy neutrinos faster than light?
Well, I can't say I "understand" it, at least the mathematics of it, but I can see it, sort of.
Subatomic particles have properties that are not entirely consistent with the atomic structure of the molecules of the matter through which they are passing, and there is possibility of them being repelled by the atoms which are fairly densely pack.
If the particle were sub-light velocity, they might meet enough collective resistance to reduce their velocity significantly.
However, they are traveling at a velocity that the repelling force of the atoms they are passing propels them basically along at least a similar trajectory to the one they were already on.
The forces of the surrounding bodies acts something like the spinning wheels in a pitching machine, increasing the velocity. It is not a significant force, per se' but over the distance they are traveling it is enough to be noticeable.
IT would be similar physics to the way we used the Sun to slingshot our probes out of the Solar system, but far more complex due to the density of the matter.
Subatomic particles have properties that are not entirely consistent with the atomic structure of the molecules of the matter through which they are passing, and there is possibility of them being repelled by the atoms which are fairly densely pack.
If the particle were sub-light velocity, they might meet enough collective resistance to reduce their velocity significantly.
However, they are traveling at a velocity that the repelling force of the atoms they are passing propels them basically along at least a similar trajectory to the one they were already on.
The forces of the surrounding bodies acts something like the spinning wheels in a pitching machine, increasing the velocity. It is not a significant force, per se' but over the distance they are traveling it is enough to be noticeable.
IT would be similar physics to the way we used the Sun to slingshot our probes out of the Solar system, but far more complex due to the density of the matter.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
High-energy neutrinos faster than light?
LarsMac;1371392 wrote: Well, I can't say I "understand" it, at least the mathematics of it, but I can see it, sort of.
Subatomic particles have properties that are not entirely consistent with the atomic structure of the molecules of the matter through which they are passing, and there is possibility of them being repelled by the atoms which are fairly densely pack.
If the particle were sub-light velocity, they might meet enough collective resistance to reduce their velocity significantly.
However, they are traveling at a velocity that the repelling force of the atoms they are passing propels them basically along at least a similar trajectory to the one they were already on.
The forces of the surrounding bodies acts something like the spinning wheels in a pitching machine, increasing the velocity. It is not a significant force, per se' but over the distance they are traveling it is enough to be noticeable.
IT would be similar physics to the way we used the Sun to slingshot our probes out of the Solar system, but far more complex due to the density of the matter.
If they are being repelled after they have passed then why are they not being slowed down as they approach?
The slingshot effect when performing a close pass around the sun relies on loosing mass at the point of closest approach. That is not an option here.
Subatomic particles have properties that are not entirely consistent with the atomic structure of the molecules of the matter through which they are passing, and there is possibility of them being repelled by the atoms which are fairly densely pack.
If the particle were sub-light velocity, they might meet enough collective resistance to reduce their velocity significantly.
However, they are traveling at a velocity that the repelling force of the atoms they are passing propels them basically along at least a similar trajectory to the one they were already on.
The forces of the surrounding bodies acts something like the spinning wheels in a pitching machine, increasing the velocity. It is not a significant force, per se' but over the distance they are traveling it is enough to be noticeable.
IT would be similar physics to the way we used the Sun to slingshot our probes out of the Solar system, but far more complex due to the density of the matter.
If they are being repelled after they have passed then why are they not being slowed down as they approach?
The slingshot effect when performing a close pass around the sun relies on loosing mass at the point of closest approach. That is not an option here.
High-energy neutrinos faster than light?
I have no idea what I am doing in this thread......neutrinos ?
I thought it was a Lon food thread
I thought it was a Lon food thread
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
High-energy neutrinos faster than light?
Bruv;1371408 wrote: I have no idea what I am doing in this thread......neutrinos ?
I thought it was a Lon food thread
:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl
I thought it was a Lon food thread
:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl
Live the questions now. Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distant day into the answers...Rainer Maria Rilke
High-energy neutrinos faster than light?
Bryn Mawr;1371406 wrote: If they are being repelled after they have passed then why are they not being slowed down as they approach?
The slingshot effect when performing a close pass around the sun relies on loosing mass at the point of closest approach. That is not an option here.
Good points.
To the first, Perhaps they are, but the angle of attack is such that the approach is not resisted as much, and the velocity magnifies the repellant affect.
To the second, it was really the only well-know example I could think of, probably a very poor one.
I may be way off, but I suspect there is something going on with the interaction between the Particles and the mass they are moving through.
If they could recreate a similar experiment where the particles are not moving through the mass, and see the same effect, then that would prove me completely wrong.
Until then, my hypothesis is as good as any other.
It will take some serious lab work to figure this out, and I am just a simple engineer.
The slingshot effect when performing a close pass around the sun relies on loosing mass at the point of closest approach. That is not an option here.
Good points.
To the first, Perhaps they are, but the angle of attack is such that the approach is not resisted as much, and the velocity magnifies the repellant affect.
To the second, it was really the only well-know example I could think of, probably a very poor one.
I may be way off, but I suspect there is something going on with the interaction between the Particles and the mass they are moving through.
If they could recreate a similar experiment where the particles are not moving through the mass, and see the same effect, then that would prove me completely wrong.
Until then, my hypothesis is as good as any other.
It will take some serious lab work to figure this out, and I am just a simple engineer.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
High-energy neutrinos faster than light?
They've now confirmed their repeated tightened-up test and it's off to other laboratories to have independent confirmation. There are, it seems,few laboratories with the right oomph so it could take months.
Stay tuned, I suppose. I do hope they've got their distance measured accurately was well as precisely.
I'm betting they've messed up, and they're not seeing what they claim. If it's down to being 20m out on their baseline calculation though, that would just be daft.
Stay tuned, I suppose. I do hope they've got their distance measured accurately was well as precisely.
I'm betting they've messed up, and they're not seeing what they claim. If it's down to being 20m out on their baseline calculation though, that would just be daft.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
High-energy neutrinos faster than light?
Perhaps they have always miscalculated the "speed of light" by half a meter or so/second?
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
High-energy neutrinos faster than light?
LarsMac;1376248 wrote: Perhaps they have always miscalculated the "speed of light" by half a meter or so/second?
That's a logical impossibility.
The second is defined as "the duration of 9 192 631 770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium 133 atom" and the metre "is the length of the path travelled by light in vacuum during a time interval of 1/299 792 458 of a second". So the metre is defined by the speed of light itself. The relationship between the speed of light and the length of the meter is established by the definition.
That's a logical impossibility.
The second is defined as "the duration of 9 192 631 770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium 133 atom" and the metre "is the length of the path travelled by light in vacuum during a time interval of 1/299 792 458 of a second". So the metre is defined by the speed of light itself. The relationship between the speed of light and the length of the meter is established by the definition.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
High-energy neutrinos faster than light?
And we have the result:Slides (PDF) accompanying the talk say the faster-than-light results generated in 2011 were likely the result of “Faulty connection of the optical fibre to the Master Clock artificially increasing the neutrino anticipation by ~74 ns.” The slides also say OPERA had another problem, namely “Internal Master Clock frequency off by Δf/f = 1.24x10-7 (124 ns/s) artificially decreasing the neutrino anticipation by ~15 ns.”
CERN confirms neutrinos don't break light speed
CERN confirms neutrinos don't break light speed
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
High-energy neutrinos faster than light?
Drat! Now what am I going to do with all my neutrino jokes?
High-energy neutrinos faster than light?
Wandrin;1396048 wrote: Drat! Now what am I going to do with all my neutrino jokes?
This thread has no further purpose than to tell neutrino jokes, go for it.
The bartender says "We don’t let faster than light neutrinos in here" and a neutrino walks into a bar.
This thread has no further purpose than to tell neutrino jokes, go for it.
The bartender says "We don’t let faster than light neutrinos in here" and a neutrino walks into a bar.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
High-energy neutrinos faster than light?
Neutrino, to a passing packet of electrons... "Cheer up guys, stop being so negative all the while".
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.