Bin Laden Supporters in the UK

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Lon
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Post by Lon »

The UK must be a tad more tolerant than the U.S. I haven't seen any such demonstrations (yet) by Islam followers here. Despite the right to free speech and expression I suspect there would be violent repercussions if similar demonstrations were done here.

Express.co.uk - Home of the Daily and Sunday Express | UK News :: Furious bin Laden supporters vow to take revenge
kas
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Post by kas »

The British government and the people of Britain are too weak to say anything against the muslim community no matter what they say or do.
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Kathy Ellen
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Post by Kathy Ellen »

Why do you feel that way Kas?
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Scrat
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Post by Scrat »

Like it or not Muslims do have legitimate grievances. I mean really, who supports the Saudi family? Al Q got a lot of their support from people who were essentially looking for a way out of Saudi Arabia's almost feudal system. These people were not normally predisposed to violence. They were thinkers, idealists, people who wanted an alternative to what they had. There were people of the other stripe also and I think more of them. Many Al Q members were fighters essentially looking for a cause or more simply just looking for a fight to be in. Arabs have their own version of special forces and like minded people. We're all killers inside, we should never forget that.

Those people demonstrating are just saying they're there, that it isn't over 'til its over. We had better treat Muslims with respect, if not there will be a price to pay.
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Post by Lon »

Scrat;1359000 wrote: Like it or not Muslims do have legitimate grievances. I mean really, who supports the Saudi family? Al Q got a lot of their support from people who were essentially looking for a way out of Saudi Arabia's almost feudal system. These people were not normally predisposed to violence. They were thinkers, idealists, people who wanted an alternative to what they had. There were people of the other stripe also and I think more of them. Many Al Q members were fighters essentially looking for a cause or more simply just looking for a fight to be in. Arabs have their own version of special forces and like minded people. We're all killers inside, we should never forget that.

Those people demonstrating are just saying they're there, that it isn't over 'til its over. We had better treat Muslims with respect, if not there will be a price to pay.


Muslims are certainly entitled to have legitimate or even ill legitimate grievances, but when those grievances extend to trying to undermine and change the culture and laws of the country or countries that have been gracious enough to house them, beware, big trouble. What's the old saying? When in Rome--------------
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Post by Kathy Ellen »

Lon;1359002 wrote: Muslims are certainly entitled to have legitimate or even ill legitimate grievances, but when those grievances extend to trying to undermine and change the culture and laws of the country or countries that have been gracious enough to house them, beware, big trouble. What's the old saying? When in Rome--------------


So true Lon...Respect goes both ways!!
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Post by spot »

These are subjects of Her Majesty we're discussing. The "gracious enough to house them" is a rather one-sided point of view, if I may say so, and not one I'd accept myself. They have as much - and as little - right to peaceful public protest as any other member of the British society of which they form a part. They became citizens by mutual agreement between the individual and the Crown. I don't recall "and you won't be overly Muslim or criticize the unilaterally exceptionalist nature of our current allies" forming part of the deal. Respect? I hold no American administration since that of Gerald Ford in any respect whatever, and neither should anyone else with an ounce of decency about them.
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Post by Lon »

spot;1359011 wrote: These are subjects of Her Majesty we're discussing. The "gracious enough to house them" is a rather one-sided point of view, if I may say so, and not one I'd accept myself. They have as much - and as little - right to peaceful public protest as any other member of the British society of which they form a part. They became citizens by mutual agreement between the individual and the Crown. I don't recall "and you won't be overly Muslim or criticize the unilaterally exceptionalist nature of our current allies" forming part of the deal. Respect? I hold no American administration since that of Gerald Ford in any respect whatever, and neither should anyone else with an ounce of decency about them.


Of course, as citizens and subjects of Her Majesty they have every right to peaceful protest, it's the attempt on their part to try and impose Shiria Law and the carrying of blatant signs (though it's their right) that say Islam will Rule the World that really gets under my skin. And their endorsement of OBL automatically makes them my enemy.
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Post by spot »

I would suggest that these demonstrators were non-militant non-extreme non-demonstrators just ten years ago. They are a direct result of the Bush Administration's refusal to accept the Taliban offer to have Osama bin Laden tried by the Saudi-based Organisation of the Islamic Conference, something which would have avoided the Afghan invasion and had Osama bin Laden dead ten years earlier than the Americans managed. And how do we know of the offer? Wikileaks, actually - George Bush and his criminal gang never mentioned the offer either at the time or since.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Post by Lon »

spot;1359014 wrote: I would suggest that these demonstrators were non-militant non-extreme non-demonstrators just ten years ago. They are a direct result of the Bush Administration's refusal to accept the Taliban offer to have Osama bin Laden tried by the Saudi-based Organisation of the Islamic Conference, something which would have avoided the Afghan invasion and had Osama bin Laden dead ten years earlier than the Americans managed. And how do we know of the offer? Wikileaks, actually - George Bush and his criminal gang never mentioned the offer either at the time or since.


The demonstrations were non extreme and non militant, granted, but if you carried a sign that said "Death to Me" I would view you as a definite threat and take you as my enemy.
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Post by spot »

Lon;1359018 wrote: The demonstrations were non extreme and non militant, granted, but if you carried a sign that said "Death to Me" I would view you as a definite threat and take you as my enemy.


As I said, the last President to stand up against the Pentagon was Gerald Ford. It appears to me that the American citizen cannot choose to elect a President prepared to do that, not since Vietnam. As such, it appears to me that no effective democratic representation is available to the American citizen any longer. The Pentagon gets what it wants, which includes both face-saving and what it defines as honor, and no vote in any election can change that nowadays. The Pentagon may well drag the country to its knees but it's unstoppable. An honest President would publicly humiliate and dishonorably dismiss someone like General Mattis. All President Obama is capable of is promoting the man.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Post by gmc »

We are a failrly tolerant bunch but only up to a point. when push comes to shove the british are a damn sight more aggressive than any of these clowns, most people recognise that the extremists do not represent majority of muslims. There are extremes on both sides that want to provoke conflict. The EDL are just as bad in their own way. We also allow Orange marches and the annual john connelly march I think you would find them a bit of an eye opener if you think we tend not to get worked up about religion.

But tell me is it any different from your christian right imposing their beliefs on everybody and wanting to see the banning of science teaching and creationism being taught in mainstrean education? Or your tea party movement carrying guns and trying to intimidate people in to accepting their own view of how things should be?

HeraldNet.com - Nation/World: Florida law targets baggy pants

Florida law targets baggy pants


Good to know the governers iof some of your states have their eye on the main societal issues.:yh_rotfl
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Post by Lon »

spot;1359019 wrote: As I said, the last President to stand up against the Pentagon was Gerald Ford. It appears to me that the American citizen cannot choose to elect a President prepared to do that, not since Vietnam. As such, it appears to me that no effective democratic representation is available to the American citizen any longer. The Pentagon gets what it wants, which includes both face-saving and what it defines as honor, and no vote in any election can change that nowadays. The Pentagon may well drag the country to its knees but it's unstoppable. An honest President would publicly humiliate and dishonorably dismiss someone like General Mattis. All President Obama is capable of is promoting the man.


Aren't we deviating and broadening this discussion a bit and ignoring the initial discussion?
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Post by Lon »

[QUOTE=gmc

But tell me is it any different from your christian right imposing their beliefs on everybody and wanting to see the banning of science teaching and creationism being taught in mainstrean education? Or your tea party movement carrying guns and trying to intimidate people in to accepting their own view of how things should be?

(Lon)

Good point, however I don't view them as a physical threat to me or mine (at least not yet), I do with militant radical Islam.
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Post by spot »

Lon;1359021 wrote: Aren't we deviating and broadening this discussion a bit and ignoring the initial discussion?


Absolutely not. These demonstrators were non-militant non-extreme non-demonstrators just ten years ago. They are now militant extreme demonstrators. They have been radicalized by the Empire-building ambitions of PNAC/Bush and the roll-on-my-back attitude of President Obama, who evidently lacks the backbone to rein in the professional killers unleashed by the previous White House. President Obama, to be fair to the man, has a rabid electorate to answer to who presumably shoulder the ultimate responsibility.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Post by Scrat »

Muslims are certainly entitled to have legitimate or even ill legitimate grievances, but when those grievances extend to trying to undermine and change the culture and laws of the country or countries that have been gracious enough to house them, beware, big trouble. What's the old saying? When in Rome


Do as the Romans do. I think the same would apply for us in Iraq, Afghanistan and other places, we are occupying Muslim countries are we not? Isn't there an American inside of every raghead and sand nigger terrorist trying to get out? I'd like to say something different than this but by god we're already like one another way too much for my liking. Anyway let's just continue to pluck out one anothers eyes. It's not like we have any ability to stop ourselves from doing it. Let the perpetual conflict progress.
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Post by Lon »

spot;1359023 wrote: Absolutely not. These demonstrators were non-militant non-extreme non-demonstrators just ten years ago. They are now militant extreme demonstrators. They have been radicalized by the Empire-building ambitions of PNAC/Bush and the roll-on-my-back attitude of President Obama, who evidently lacks the backbone to rein in the professional killers unleashed by the previous White House. President Obama, to be fair to the man, has a rabid electorate to answer to who presumably shoulder the ultimate responsibility.


What ever the reason, it was their choice to become radicalized and therein lies the problem that I have with them.
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Post by spot »

Lon;1359025 wrote: What ever the reason, it was their choice to become radicalized and therein lies the problem that I have with them.Very few people in the world sided with bin Laden in the days immediately after 9/11, Lon. If you see yourself surrounded by enemies now, I think you have to ask what's happened since then to cause the change in attitude. Assymetrically-armored gum-chewing US servicemen, with ten years' moral preconditioning inside Grand Theft Auto, killing Muslims in their home villages, that's what's happened.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Post by Scrat »

Absolutely not. These demonstrators were non-militant non-extreme non-demonstrators just ten years ago. They are now militant extreme demonstrators. They have been radicalized by the Empire-building ambitions of PNAC/Bush and the roll-on-my-back attitude of President Obama, who evidently lacks the backbone to rein in the professional killers unleashed by the previous White House. President Obama, to be fair to the man, has a rabid electorate to answer to who presumably shoulder the ultimate responsibility.

Very few people in the world sided with bin Laden in the days immediately after 9/11, Lon. If you see yourself surrounded by enemies now, I think you have to ask what's happened since then to cause the change in attitude.


I'll second this. You really have to look at who has interests in this conflict from the American mercs to the big business interests and all of the others all around the world. Including the Arab powers.
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Post by Lon »

spot;1359026 wrote: Very few people in the world sided with bin Laden in the days immediately after 9/11, Lon. If you see yourself surrounded by enemies now, I think you have to ask what's happened since then to cause the change in attitude. Assymetrically-armored gum-chewing US servicemen, with ten years' moral preconditioning inside Grand Theft Auto, killing Muslims in their home villages, that's what's happened.


I don't see myself surrounded by enemies yet since the radicals represent such a minority, and must confess that my pre conditioned non religious beliefs generate some of my thinking.
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Post by Scrat »

Glad you're so honest Lon. Respect.
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Post by gmc »

Lon;1359022 wrote: [QUOTE=gmc

But tell me is it any different from your christian right imposing their beliefs on everybody and wanting to see the banning of science teaching and creationism being taught in mainstrean education? Or your tea party movement carrying guns and trying to intimidate people in to accepting their own view of how things should be?

(Lon)

Good point, however I don't view them as a physical threat to me or mine (at least not yet), I do with militant radical Islam.

That idea that radical islam is likely to take over america is laughable. When are you all going to vote for that?

On the other hand the notion that radical christianity could take over is a bit more realistsic and is something they are quite openly trying to do. Once they get power you will have a job to shift them except the various sects will probably turn on each other anyway. I find militant christianity every bit as disturbing as militant islam, the two of them want conflict and would drag us all in to their daft religious conflict. Both sides reject religious tolerance and want to rule. Why do the tea party take guns to their meetings?

BBC News - Vote 2011: Celebrations and anger at NI Assembly result

You might argue neither side in NI is particularly inspired by christian values, but if they're not killing each other to settle the point about who had the right religion they are quite happy to turn on anyone else. Most people in the UK during the IRA bombing campaigns had the sense to realise they did not represent all irish people. Despite the fact they were funded by americans (and trained in libya) most people in the UK understood america wasn't actually attacking them even if they were stupid enough to believe the IRA were freedom fighters. Most people in the UK inderstand that not all muslims are militant would be bombers. We're also not inclined to get hysterical about terrorist attacks, neither are most europeans - they have been a constant theme for some decades now although not on the scale of 911.

On the other habd I really don't know what would happen if there were atrocities carried out by UK based muslims - the 7/7 attack was one such. If it becames a feature that tolerance might go by the board and if that happens I suspect it would be the muslims that would have a problem not us. They only think they are aggressive and warlike we actually are. That much feted british tolerance grows out of a great deal of violence and bloodshed, you either grow to become a siciety tolerant of each other or you are always at war.

Why do you believe militant islam is a physical threat to you? The odds of you being caught in an attack are pretty remote. Do you live in an area where there are hordes of gun toting muslims going to the mosgue? I get the impression there are plenty of gun toting christians around. You have christian terrorist trying to shut down abortion clinics and using fear and intimidation against legislators and judges are muslims doing the same kind of thing? Crikey you have preachers actively saying Obama is the anti-christ and a secret muslim. Frankly they make some of the islamic militants seem sane - at least you could argue they have a reason to be annoyed.
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Post by Lon »

[QUOTE=gmc;1359070]

That idea that radical islam is likely to take over america is laughable. When are you all going to vote for that?

On the other hand the notion that radical christianity could take over is a bit more realistsic and is something they are quite openly trying to do. Once they get power you will have a job to shift them except the various sects will probably turn on each other anyway. I find militant christianity every bit as disturbing as militant islam, the two of them want conflict and would drag us all in to their daft religious conflict. Both sides reject religious tolerance and want to rule. Why do the tea party take guns to their meetings?

BBC News - Vote 2011: Celebrations and anger at NI Assembly result

You might argue neither side in NI is particularly inspired by christian values, but if they're not killing each other to settle the point about who had the right religion they are quite happy to turn on anyone else. Most people in the UK during the IRA bombing campaigns had the sense to realise they did not represent all irish people. Despite the fact they were funded by americans (and trained in libya) most people in the UK understood america wasn't actually attacking them even if they were stupid enough to believe the IRA were freedom fighters. Most people in the UK inderstand that not all muslims are militant would be bombers. We're also not inclined to get hysterical about terrorist attacks, neither are most europeans - they have been a constant theme for some decades now although not on the scale of 911.

On the other habd I really don't know what would happen if there were atrocities carried out by UK based muslims - the 7/7 attack was one such. If it becames a feature that tolerance might go by the board and if that happens I suspect it would be the muslims that would have a problem not us. They only think they are aggressive and warlike we actually are. That much feted british tolerance grows out of a great deal of violence and bloodshed, you either grow to become a siciety tolerant of each other or you are always at war.

Why do you believe militant islam is a physical threat to you? The odds of you being caught in an attack are pretty remote. Do you live in an area where there are hordes of gun toting muslims going to the mosgue? I get the impression there are plenty of gun toting christians around. You have christian terrorist trying to shut down abortion clinics and using fear and intimidation against legislators and judges are muslims doing the same kind of thing? Crikey you have preachers actively saying Obama is the anti-christ and a secret muslim. Frankly they make some of the islamic militants seem sane - at least you could argue they have a reason to be annoyed.


I don't see Radical Islam taking over America and it's unlikely that the Tea Party or Radical Christian Fundamentalists will either.

If I were to be televised carrying a placard depicting THE PROPHET MOHAMMED with horns, yes I would be concerned for my personal safety. Not so however if I carried a placard of Jesus with horns. I am not a fan of the Tea Party and I guess my real concern is RELIGION and the over all negative affect and influence it has in this world.
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Post by gmc »

Lon;1359103 wrote: [QUOTE=gmc;1359070]

I don't see Radical Islam taking over America and it's unlikely that the Tea Party or Radical Christian Fundamentalists will either.

If I were to be televised carrying a placard depicting THE PROPHET MOHAMMED with horns, yes I would be concerned for my personal safety. Not so however if I carried a placard of Jesus with horns. I am not a fan of the Tea Party and I guess my real concern is RELIGION and the over all negative affect and influence it has in this world.


I would agree with you there about religion. You would think we have moved beyond it's ability cause so much trouble but it seems not.
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Post by librtyhead »

spot;1359023 wrote: Absolutely not. These demonstrators were non-militant non-extreme non-demonstrators just ten years ago. They are now militant extreme demonstrators. They have been radicalized by the Empire-building ambitions of PNAC/Bush and the roll-on-my-back attitude of President Obama, who evidently lacks the backbone to rein in the professional killers unleashed by the previous White House. President Obama, to be fair to the man, has a rabid electorate to answer to who presumably shoulder the ultimate responsibility.


Are you blaming Englands current Muslim problem on America?
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Post by spot »

librtyhead;1359109 wrote: Are you blaming Englands current Muslim problem on America?


Not at all. England has no current Muslim problem. England had a skinhead White bully-boy problem since the sixties, along with their Alf Garnett middle-aged loud-mouthed hangers-on. And yes, I went to Colin Jordan's rallies to see what it was about and saw them in action and nothing they've done since has surprised me. They are, fortunately, growing old while drowning in today's sea of multiculturalism and mockery. It's a pleasure to watch them rage against the dying of the light knowing they've lost their war.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Post by Ahso! »

spot;1359019 wrote: As I said, the last President to stand up against the Pentagon was Gerald Ford. It appears to me that the American citizen cannot choose to elect a President prepared to do that, not since Vietnam. As such, it appears to me that no effective democratic representation is available to the American citizen any longer. The Pentagon gets what it wants, which includes both face-saving and what it defines as honor, and no vote in any election can change that nowadays. The Pentagon may well drag the country to its knees but it's unstoppable. An honest President would publicly humiliate and dishonorably dismiss someone like General Mattis. All President Obama is capable of is promoting the man.It's a urine-poor investment strategy if you ask me.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,

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Post by Ahso! »

Lon;1359103 wrote:

I don't see Radical Islam taking over America and it's unlikely that the Tea Party or Radical Christian Fundamentalists will either.

If I were to be televised carrying a placard depicting THE PROPHET MOHAMMED with horns, yes I would be concerned for my personal safety. Not so however if I carried a placard of Jesus with horns. I am not a fan of the Tea Party and I guess my real concern is RELIGION and the over all negative affect and influence it has in this world.I dare you to walk around wearing a t-shirt depicting Jesus with horns. You'd be a bloody mess in short order, not to mention you'd be banished from those swimming pool volleyball games you so enjoy.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,

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Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

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Post by Nomad »

spot;1359011 wrote: I hold no American administration since that of Gerald Ford in any respect whatever, and neither should anyone else with an ounce of decency about them.


Ford pardoned Nixon. Inexcusable failure by an elitist.
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Post by spot »

Nomad;1359445 wrote: Ford pardoned Nixon. Inexcusable failure by an elitist.President Nixon was railroaded by people who preferred to win than to behave fairly. Other than being completely blind to reality and indoctrinated into cult-like thought-free oblivion by the capitalist war-profiteers he served - neither of which he could have avoided, given where and when he found himself - he was an honorable giant brought down by opportunist pygmies. His memory deserves better of his countrymen than it gets.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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