Ethical cuisine

Discuss food, drink, and recipes.
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38887
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

Ethical cuisine

Post by spot »

I have meditated on the matter of food as it relates to exploitation.

Currently, as I understand it, most people regard the inclusion of human flesh in their diet as unethical. And rightly so, who could disagree.

Some go further still and declare all primates to be off the menu. This doesn't apply where primates are readily available for slaughter in the wild, the concept of a free lunch being universal.

Some religious practices abhor this or that on the grounds that God will smite them in the afterlife if they indulge their appetite for bacon or oysters or camels.

None of them go far enough, in my opinion. I offer you my own conclusions: no human should consume any multicellular lifeform, on the grounds of consanguinity. We're too closely related to the pig, the lamprey or the cous-cous to terminate its life just to enjoy its flavour.

Growing any multicellular species for the purpose of eating it should be the subject of an international treaty outlawing it worldwide. I call for the founding of a Food Crimes Tribunal.

I'm not so sure about whether eating something that died a natural death is ethical but I suspect it ought to be. Trees felled by high wind, for example, or accidentally electrocuted swans.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
User avatar
chonsigirl
Posts: 33631
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 8:28 am

Ethical cuisine

Post by chonsigirl »

Be a bland wake feast for you, spot...........no meat, no veggies. What about milk and eggs? Or is that cruel punishment to the critters involved?
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38887
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

Ethical cuisine

Post by spot »

All you need do is substitute a human for the animal or plant involved and ask whether it's currently acceptable. If we don't farm humans in order to milk them every day then we shouldn't exploit cows for the purpose, they're related. Slicing the bark of maple trees and bleeding them is pretty gross too.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
Bruv
Posts: 12181
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:05 pm

Ethical cuisine

Post by Bruv »

I am baffled, that's easy I know.....but what do you suggest we eat ?
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38887
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

Ethical cuisine

Post by spot »

Bruv;1357340 wrote: I am baffled, that's easy I know.....but what do you suggest we eat ?


Algae seem very suitable. One can grow every requirement for sustenance as algae and (given the research and commercial demand) process them into whatever form of food the public wants. All of it's there, potentially cheaper than any existing farming system and eliminating the ethical quandary I raised.

The primary ingredients required by production systems based on algae are the same as on a farm but without the multicellular victims: light, carbon dioxide and water. The balance of other chemicals is minimal compared to those three. What you end up with on the plate or in the glass is potentially comparable to what you buy in the shops today.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
User avatar
Delorean
Posts: 176
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:10 pm

Ethical cuisine

Post by Delorean »

Road kill?
User avatar
Lon
Posts: 9476
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 11:38 pm

Ethical cuisine

Post by Lon »

Since seeing the film "Soylent Green" with Charlton Heston many years ago I thought what a wonderful and practical idea.

Re-processing the dead into a biscuit or wafer.

Soylent Green (1973) - IMDb
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38887
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

Ethical cuisine

Post by spot »

Lon;1357345 wrote: Re-processing the dead into a biscuit or wafer.Biscuit or wafer might catch on. Stew, on the other hand, seems less likely.



Delorean's roadkill is an interesting one. Anybody driving headlong into a wild bird or herbivore would presumably be pleased to take it home and roast its muscles for lunch and there's certainly no ethical objection I could come up with, nor would I wish to. I do think it says a lot, though, that there's a restrictive range people would apply to what's acceptable roadkill and what isn't. If you list a few species and take a vote, I reckon you'd find the following:

Highly acceptable roast roadkill: peacock cassowary ostrich elk boar giraffe.

Completely unacceptable roast roadkill: vulture (despite Lon's assertion years back!) seagull eagle bear cat koala.

I'm interested that the list would be commonplace. I think it's culture-conditioned - I bet Genghis Khan's Mongol horde would have eaten any and all of those. They were said to kill and eat each other when nothing else could be found. Mind you they had many biased detractors, Genghis was the Gaddafi of his day.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
User avatar
Lon
Posts: 9476
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 11:38 pm

Ethical cuisine

Post by Lon »

New Zealand does not have any predatory animals or snakes, they do however have zillions of possums which seem to blanket the highways and roadways. New Zealanders have made good use of their fur by combining it with Marino Wool to make very soft and warm scarves and gloves. Eating them though, they don't do. I'll betcha that early day Maori's ate them though.
User avatar
LarsMac
Posts: 12388
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:11 pm
Location: Far Out, Man

Ethical cuisine

Post by LarsMac »

Given that most life-forms are busy consuming other life-forms, I must disagree with OP, here.

In fact it would seem to me that pretty much anything alive is fair game.
Control is an illusion. The Chaos is all part of the fun.
-Susan Hattie Steinsapir
User avatar
chonsigirl
Posts: 33631
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 8:28 am

Ethical cuisine

Post by chonsigirl »

Lon;1357345 wrote: Since seeing the film "Soylent Green" with Charlton Heston many years ago I thought what a wonderful and practical idea.

Re-processing the dead into a biscuit or wafer.

Soylent Green (1973) - IMDb


*yikes*

I thought of that movie too with the OP.
User avatar
LarsMac
Posts: 12388
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:11 pm
Location: Far Out, Man

Ethical cuisine

Post by LarsMac »

Lon;1357345 wrote: Since seeing the film "Soylent Green" with Charlton Heston many years ago I thought what a wonderful and practical idea.

Re-processing the dead into a biscuit or wafer.

Soylent Green (1973) - IMDb


Recycling as a way of life?
Control is an illusion. The Chaos is all part of the fun.
-Susan Hattie Steinsapir
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38887
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

Ethical cuisine

Post by spot »

LarsMac;1357354 wrote: Given that most life-forms are busy consuming other life-forms, I must disagree with OP, here. Most life-forms lack the ability to reason. Though not, I hasten to add, those which post their inestimable reflections on Forumgarden.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
User avatar
Delorean
Posts: 176
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:10 pm

Ethical cuisine

Post by Delorean »

spot;1357346 wrote:

Highly acceptable roast roadkill: peacock cassowary ostrich elk boar giraffe.

Completely unacceptable roast roadkill: vulture (despite Lon's assertion years back!) seagull eagle bear cat koala.




Koala....mmmmm....tastes like chicken! :yh_drool
User avatar
LarsMac
Posts: 12388
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:11 pm
Location: Far Out, Man

Ethical cuisine

Post by LarsMac »

spot;1357361 wrote: Most life-forms lack the ability to reason. Though not, I hasten to add, those which post their inestimable reflections on Forumgarden.


So, I take it your suggesting, because we reason, we should extract ourselves from the food chain, entirey?

That does have some merit.

On the other hand, That means that I would be required to give up sushi and Barbeque.

Hmmm, reason vs. BBQ?

I am far too comfortable with my place in the food chain, thank you.
Control is an illusion. The Chaos is all part of the fun.
-Susan Hattie Steinsapir
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38887
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

Ethical cuisine

Post by spot »

Future generations will regard you as barbaric, as shall I from this moment on. So there.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
User avatar
Delorean
Posts: 176
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:10 pm

Ethical cuisine

Post by Delorean »

If we are only to eat things that are already dead or have fallen to the ground, how are we to eat potatoes and other vegetables? Things that can fall would mostly be fruits, not an altogether complete diet :-2
User avatar
Delorean
Posts: 176
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:10 pm

Ethical cuisine

Post by Delorean »

...and is chocolate still ok?:-2

If not, you can forget your ethics! :wah:
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38887
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

Ethical cuisine

Post by spot »

The experience of chocolate is your body's reaction to vigorous chemical probing, every aspect of which can be generated from synthetic materials. If the feedstock is amoebic you can still consider it grown as opposed to manufactured. Given the degree of processing in your current multicellular diet there won't be much done that you don't already put up with.

The potato is your distant cousin, you should have more respect than to treat it as a consumable commodity. The potato should have rights appropriate to its nature.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
User avatar
Delorean
Posts: 176
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:10 pm

Ethical cuisine

Post by Delorean »

spot;1357625 wrote: The experience of chocolate it your body's reaction to vigorous chemical probing, every aspect of which can be generated from synthetic materials. If the feedstock is amoebic you can still consider it grown as opposed to manufactured. Given the degree of processing in your current multicellular diet there won't be much done that you don't already put up with.

The potato is your distant cousin, you should have more respect than to treat it as a consumable commodity. The potato should have rights appropriate to its nature.


If you met my family, you wouldn't think it was so distant! :wah:
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38887
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

Ethical cuisine

Post by spot »

Delorean;1357627 wrote: If you met my family, you wouldn't think it was so distant! :wah:


I speak not of the plump pampered potato. ringed with herbicides and insecticides, made obese by the overapplication of nitrates and phosphates, plucked in its prime for presentation to pallid purchasers. I speak of the potato which is yet to come, returned to its wild and dangerous ways, fighting fearlessly across glaciated ravines to achieve its destiny upon the mountain tops of its native ranges. The potato is the quintessential Irish Rover.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
User avatar
Delorean
Posts: 176
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:10 pm

Ethical cuisine

Post by Delorean »

:-2
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38887
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

Ethical cuisine

Post by spot »

Delorean;1357635 wrote: :-2I had in mind, I think, an American poem of great renown by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, part of which went"Beware the pine-tree's withered branch!

Beware the awful avalanche!"

This was the peasant's last Good-night,

A voice replied, far up the height,

Excelsior!It was for many years considered a great, if hard to visualize, poem, until it was parodied into oblivion and immortalized all in one blow by Marriott Edgar.

Anyway, if I ever see a potato variety called Excelsior! I will certainly recall this thread.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38887
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

Ethical cuisine

Post by spot »

Good chap, Longfellow.

This is him on the topic of God's Acre:Into its furrows shall we all be cast,

In the sure faith, that we shall rise again

At the great harvest, when the archangel's blast

Shall winnow, like a fan, the chaff and grain. It's deceptively simple. Everything he wrote is in the same vein.

He's even got his own website and not many people born in 1807 can boast one.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
User avatar
LarsMac
Posts: 12388
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:11 pm
Location: Far Out, Man

Ethical cuisine

Post by LarsMac »

spot;1357618 wrote: Future generations will regard you as barbaric, as shall I from this moment on. So there.


Actually, I believe the real ethical problem is (and this brings back the mention of Soylent Green) that we have made enormous strides in extracting ourselves from the food chain, while at the same time endulging in the benefits of our current place in it.

We should be willing to return, in our entirety to the chain of life, if we wish to continue to consume same.

I believe all that are unwilling to return to the chain of life, should follow your advice and look outside the food chain for sustenance.
Control is an illusion. The Chaos is all part of the fun.
-Susan Hattie Steinsapir
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38887
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

Ethical cuisine

Post by spot »

LarsMac;1357683 wrote: I believe all that are unwilling to return to the chain of life, should follow your advice and look outside the food chain for sustenance.On a point of information, algae are currently the predominant food on the planet by weight. Along with plankton they are the sole root of the food chain at sea, they support the entire biomass in that environment if you exclude the occasional mafia victim dropped off the back of a New Jersey launch. More tons of algae are produced and consumed naturally each year than all the cows, sheep, rolled oats and eggs put together.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
User avatar
LarsMac
Posts: 12388
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:11 pm
Location: Far Out, Man

Ethical cuisine

Post by LarsMac »

spot;1357684 wrote: On a point of information, algae are currently the predominant food on the planet by weight. Along with plankton they are the sole root of the food chain at sea, they support the entire biomass in that environment if you exclude the occasional mafia victim dropped off the back of a New Jersey launch. More tons of algae are produced and consumed naturally each year than all the cows, sheep, rolled oats and eggs put together.


So now we not only extricate ourselves from the food chain, we become competition with the entire food chain for sustenance?

Next we will GM the algae and won't need all them other critters. (Which will be a good thing because now that we don't need them for food, we will just dispose of the competition altogether.)



We can then start terraforming. Tear down all the high mountains, dump the debris in the sea, flatten out the planet a bit, so we have more open shallow water in which to grow our GM algae.

I think this is about as close as I want to get to living off algae:



Recipe
Control is an illusion. The Chaos is all part of the fun.
-Susan Hattie Steinsapir
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38887
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

Ethical cuisine

Post by spot »

LarsMac;1357761 wrote: So now we not only extricate ourselves from the food chain, we become competition with the entire food chain for sustenance?I think I started the thread with the premise that this stuff was to be grown in vats, not that we'd go out with superfine mesh nets and trawl the oceans.

As far as the natural environment's concerned I'd be pleased if it and those living in it had absolutely no contact whatever either with humans or with the consequence of any human activity, and that it occupied as close to the entire surface of the planet as possible while still allowing us a way on and off now and then.

Nobody else is using the inside, we're technologically capable of living in there, we'd not be taking up anything else's space, it's an ideal way forward. I estimate we could increase human numbers on the planet to ten thousand billion by building downward just within a two-mile belt and each of us end up with apartments ten times our current size, while leaving the surface entirely to the other life-forms.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
User avatar
Bryn Mawr
Posts: 15912
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:54 pm

Ethical cuisine

Post by Bryn Mawr »

spot;1357765 wrote: I think I started the thread with the premise that this stuff was to be grown in vats, not that we'd go out with superfine mesh nets and trawl the oceans.

As far as the natural environment's concerned I'd be pleased if it and those living in it had absolutely no contact whatever either with humans or with the consequence of any human activity, and that it occupied as close to the entire surface of the planet as possible while still allowing us a way on and off now and then.

Nobody else is using the inside, we're technologically capable of living in there, we'd not be taking up anything else's space, it's an ideal way forward. I estimate we could increase human numbers on the planet to ten thousand billion by building downward just within a two-mile belt and each of us end up with apartments ten times our current size, while leaving the surface entirely to the other life-forms.


What's the temperature like two miles down?
User avatar
LarsMac
Posts: 12388
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:11 pm
Location: Far Out, Man

Ethical cuisine

Post by LarsMac »

Bryn Mawr;1357767 wrote: What's the temperature like two miles down?


Rather warm, I hear
Control is an illusion. The Chaos is all part of the fun.
-Susan Hattie Steinsapir
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38887
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

Ethical cuisine

Post by spot »

Bryn Mawr;1357767 wrote: What's the temperature like two miles down?


It's all coming up from below, right? So what's in the first quarter mile of the basement? Generators, that's what. And the power generated is expended further up, thereby allowing the heat to get where it was going while being useful in the process. Anywhere you have a temperature gradient you have the potential to run a civilization.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
User avatar
LarsMac
Posts: 12388
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:11 pm
Location: Far Out, Man

Ethical cuisine

Post by LarsMac »

spot;1357765 wrote: I think I started the thread with the premise that this stuff was to be grown in vats, not that we'd go out with superfine mesh nets and trawl the oceans.

As far as the natural environment's concerned I'd be pleased if it and those living in it had absolutely no contact whatever either with humans or with the consequence of any human activity, and that it occupied as close to the entire surface of the planet as possible while still allowing us a way on and off now and then.

Nobody else is using the inside, we're technologically capable of living in there, we'd not be taking up anything else's space, it's an ideal way forward. I estimate we could increase human numbers on the planet to ten thousand billion by building downward just within a two-mile belt and each of us end up with apartments ten times our current size, while leaving the surface entirely to the other life-forms.


All great ideas start out with a simple plan and humans manage to screw them up.

Yours is pretty good for humans when they begin to actually venture out from Home Planet. A long term project like the ram scoop transports that guys like Niven dreamed up with artificially lit algae vats to produce food stuff would be great for colonial trips.

As for Mother Earth, A troglodite society, living underground, and eating algae would be fine, as long as I get to be one of the "Barbarians" that roam the surface, feasting upon the vast array of life forms Mother Nature has provide, perfectly willing to return to the mud from which we were extracted when our life form is no longer functional.
Control is an illusion. The Chaos is all part of the fun.
-Susan Hattie Steinsapir
User avatar
Lon
Posts: 9476
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 11:38 pm

Ethical cuisine

Post by Lon »

Interesting Pizza.

Attached files
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38887
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

Ethical cuisine

Post by spot »

LarsMac;1357776 wrote: As for Mother Earth, A troglodite society, living underground, and eating algae would be fine, as long as I get to be one of the "Barbarians" that roam the surface, feasting upon the vast array of life forms Mother Nature has provide, perfectly willing to return to the mud from which we were extracted when our life form is no longer functional.


I'm trying to remember what film that's from - I have a horrid suspicion it had either Michael York or Sean Connery in it. Neither were on their best form.

Michael York, on reflection, never had a best form.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38887
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

Ethical cuisine

Post by spot »

The wheels turn slowly but they finally start to grind...

"A Singapore-based company aiming to make seafood by growing them from cells rather than animals secures $4.6m (£3.53m) in funding".
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
User avatar
magentaflame
Posts: 2903
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Victoria, Australia

Ethical cuisine

Post by magentaflame »

I don't eat any seafood from Asia. So that's me out
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38887
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

Ethical cuisine

Post by spot »

magentaflame;1523062 wrote: I don't eat any seafood from Asia. So that's me out


I'm not sure you entirely followed the "growing them from cells rather than animals" bit. The product being developed will never have seen the sea and will never have been seafood, it will have been brainless single-celled organisms with no nervous system, it will have been grown in large industrial vats the size of oil tankers. The investors are hoping to pass this off as seafood when it appears in restaurants, that's all.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
User avatar
magentaflame
Posts: 2903
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Victoria, Australia

Ethical cuisine

Post by magentaflame »

No, I got that bit . It's like the "bovine" patties made in a lab. I still wouldn't eat it because it comes from Asia.
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!

Return to “The Kitchen”