Does The Bible Actually Lie?
Does The Bible Actually Lie?
Bart D. Ehrman: Who Wrote The Bible and Why It Matters
Does The Bible Actually Lie?
I have trouble discussing the Old Testament and New Testament as one work. Is this a question about both or about the New Testament.
I don't see any evidence that the Old Testament was written as a factual account of events so it can't be deemed a lie. The New Testament I'm not so sure of but, from what I understand, it's meant allegorically. It can only be a lie if someone has said it is fact.
Other than fundamentalists, not many people say that.
I don't see any evidence that the Old Testament was written as a factual account of events so it can't be deemed a lie. The New Testament I'm not so sure of but, from what I understand, it's meant allegorically. It can only be a lie if someone has said it is fact.
Other than fundamentalists, not many people say that.
Does The Bible Actually Lie?
will let me tell you something, the original Bible isn't lying and it's all truth BUT It has been distorted by people. as a result, it's not all truth anymore, maybe some of it.
However, the Holly Quran is the last holly book came from God so it's the only true book and it's saved by Gods willing.
However, the Holly Quran is the last holly book came from God so it's the only true book and it's saved by Gods willing.
I miss you Odie
Does The Bible Actually Lie?
M.A.S;1356298 wrote: will let me tell you something, the original Bible isn't lying and it's all truth BUT It has been distorted by people. as a result, it's not all truth anymore, maybe some of it. Where can we see "the original Bible", MAS? If it no longer exists, what makes you think it ever existed? When was it distorted?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Does The Bible Actually Lie?
koan;1356293 wrote: It can only be a lie if someone has said it is fact.
Other than fundamentalists, not many people say that.The problem arises most vividly when there's a statement in the bible which was a lie when it was written, was known by the writer at the time to be a lie, and is portrayed by the writer to be a fact. And consequently fundamentalists demand that it's a fact, when it demonstrably can't be. Lon's article focuses on exactly that situation. The article also says what excuses are now made on behalf of the writer ("that it was an acceptable practice in the ancient world", for example), and shows that the excuses are demonstrably untrue too.
Other than fundamentalists, not many people say that.The problem arises most vividly when there's a statement in the bible which was a lie when it was written, was known by the writer at the time to be a lie, and is portrayed by the writer to be a fact. And consequently fundamentalists demand that it's a fact, when it demonstrably can't be. Lon's article focuses on exactly that situation. The article also says what excuses are now made on behalf of the writer ("that it was an acceptable practice in the ancient world", for example), and shows that the excuses are demonstrably untrue too.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Does The Bible Actually Lie?
We know the early catholic church sat down and seleceted those bits of the bible and re-wrote where necessary to create a church that suited their purposes. Believed in original sin, in the concept of predestination, that Christians were utterly dependent on divine grace, on the favour of God because we are born sinners with a sinful heart and will, In their view, the kingdom of heaven could only be sought through the Church, not by free volition. It made followers subservient to the church. As opposed to the notion that that moral perfection was attainable in this life without the assistance of divine grace through human free will, mankind was iinnately good, not the imnheritors of adam's sin and are sinners by choice, they are therefore criminals who need the atonement of Jesus Christ. Sinners are not victims, they are criminals who need pardon and should follow the example of jesus.
It's not some insane conspiracy theory it actually happened and it's will was imposed by terror and the extermination of anyone preaching heresy. The nicene creed is still recited today but nowadaysyou don't get burned at the stake for not saying it..
I have difficulty how anyone who has read the bible or studied biblical history can be religious or why people are so willing to kill those who don't agree with them - you can't leave two christians alone for five minutes begfore they are arguing about who is right and where the other has got it wrong and why are you reading he "wrong" bible. . Islam is the same - you have the same schisms and bloodletting about who is right and surprisingly similar issues.
Does the bible lie? If you're not religious it doesn't matter, if you are? Well if you just kept to yourselves it still wouldn't matter what you thought but no it gives the moral authority to dictate to others that many cannot resist.
posted by spot
Where can we see "the original Bible", MAS? If it no longer exists, what makes you think it ever existed? When was it distorted?
Come off it spot you know perfectly well the answer to that and I bet MAS does as well.
It's not some insane conspiracy theory it actually happened and it's will was imposed by terror and the extermination of anyone preaching heresy. The nicene creed is still recited today but nowadaysyou don't get burned at the stake for not saying it..
I have difficulty how anyone who has read the bible or studied biblical history can be religious or why people are so willing to kill those who don't agree with them - you can't leave two christians alone for five minutes begfore they are arguing about who is right and where the other has got it wrong and why are you reading he "wrong" bible. . Islam is the same - you have the same schisms and bloodletting about who is right and surprisingly similar issues.
Does the bible lie? If you're not religious it doesn't matter, if you are? Well if you just kept to yourselves it still wouldn't matter what you thought but no it gives the moral authority to dictate to others that many cannot resist.
posted by spot
Where can we see "the original Bible", MAS? If it no longer exists, what makes you think it ever existed? When was it distorted?
Come off it spot you know perfectly well the answer to that and I bet MAS does as well.
Does The Bible Actually Lie?
The article gets rather specific and states what sections are considered lies since it's commonly acknowledged in academia that these were written by people claiming to be someone else. I have little interest in the bible and the names used have already escaped my memory... was it Peter that was considered a misogynist? In any case, the things attributed to him that made him appear so were very likely written by someone else to further their political agenda. It's a good article.
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jones jones
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Does The Bible Actually Lie?
Believers accept that the bible is the word of god and cannot contain anything but his truth. Atheists like myself believe that the old testament is a collection of myths & legends, many of which have been copied frim pagan sources. The new testament is mostly about a man named Jesus who probably did live but whose exploits were greatly exaggerated to suit the holy fathers who compiled the bible.
"…I hate how I don’t feel real enough unless people are watching." — Chuck Palahniuk, Invisible Monsters
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Does The Bible Actually Lie?
koan;1356293 wrote: ..... I don't see any evidence that the Old Testament was written as a factual account of events so it can't be deemed a lie ....
I agree, koan. It's like someone (a couple of 1000 years into the future) discovering a copy of "1984" and asking, "Did this fellow George Orwell lie?"
I agree, koan. It's like someone (a couple of 1000 years into the future) discovering a copy of "1984" and asking, "Did this fellow George Orwell lie?"
Does The Bible Actually Lie?
jones jones;1356842 wrote: Believers accept that the bible is the word of god and cannot contain anything but his truth. Atheists like myself believe that the old testament is a collection of myths & legends, many of which have been copied frim pagan sources. The new testament is mostly about a man named Jesus who probably did live but whose exploits were greatly exaggerated to suit the holy fathers who compiled the bible.
It's not just myths and legends - you can cross reference some of the stories about the jews with other sources, sheba was for instance a real kingdom and probably black african at that, and some of the more fantastical can be explained other than by divine intervention. It's also not so much his exploits were exaggerated perhaps so much as some were invented and a story cfafted to suit those in the early church who wanted to craft a religion to suit their ends. It's not some conspiracy the church was quite happily killing those who weren't on message for centuries, christian slaughtering christian to save their souls. What was lost or wittingly destroyed has fascinated scholars since the very beginning.
It's not just myths and legends - you can cross reference some of the stories about the jews with other sources, sheba was for instance a real kingdom and probably black african at that, and some of the more fantastical can be explained other than by divine intervention. It's also not so much his exploits were exaggerated perhaps so much as some were invented and a story cfafted to suit those in the early church who wanted to craft a religion to suit their ends. It's not some conspiracy the church was quite happily killing those who weren't on message for centuries, christian slaughtering christian to save their souls. What was lost or wittingly destroyed has fascinated scholars since the very beginning.
Does The Bible Actually Lie?
Has anyone seen the reports of new documentation dated to the first decades after the crucifixion claimed to be written by the Primitive Christians?
If true it will shed a huge amount of light of the changes the the later Church made to the source data.
BBC News - Jordan battles to regain 'priceless' Christian relics
If true it will shed a huge amount of light of the changes the the later Church made to the source data.
BBC News - Jordan battles to regain 'priceless' Christian relics
Does The Bible Actually Lie?
spot;1356305 wrote: The problem arises most vividly when there's a statement in the bible which was a lie when it was written, was known by the writer at the time to be a lie, and is portrayed by the writer to be a fact. And consequently fundamentalists demand that it's a fact, when it demonstrably can't be. Lon's article focuses on exactly that situation. The article also says what excuses are now made on behalf of the writer ("that it was an acceptable practice in the ancient world", for example), and shows that the excuses are demonstrably untrue too.
What shows that the practice of parable is untrue? Is How the Leopard got it's spots a lie or is it just a wonderful story that may or may not have some helpful philosophy? If Jesus was a guy who gave good advice 80% of the time does that other 20% make him a liar? Or if it's reversed, I've not met many people who give good advice 20% of the time either. I've met lots of people who could be called liars but they believed what they said at the time. I've said and done lots of things that I thought were based on sound reason and in hindsight thought, wtf???
I'm of 0% persuasion that the bible is true but I don't consider it to be lies in the sense that it was intentionally misleading people. I think the nature of interpretation and assigning meaning has changed drastically since the beginning of storytelling.
What shows that the practice of parable is untrue? Is How the Leopard got it's spots a lie or is it just a wonderful story that may or may not have some helpful philosophy? If Jesus was a guy who gave good advice 80% of the time does that other 20% make him a liar? Or if it's reversed, I've not met many people who give good advice 20% of the time either. I've met lots of people who could be called liars but they believed what they said at the time. I've said and done lots of things that I thought were based on sound reason and in hindsight thought, wtf???
I'm of 0% persuasion that the bible is true but I don't consider it to be lies in the sense that it was intentionally misleading people. I think the nature of interpretation and assigning meaning has changed drastically since the beginning of storytelling.
Does The Bible Actually Lie?
We're looking at different puzzles. There's nothing wrong with parables in the slightest, they're full of insight. There's a lot wrong with writing a set of instructions to congregations pretending to be a famous evangelist, while obviously knowing full well one is impersonating him in order to claim an irresistible authority one would otherwise never possess. That's the lie the article focused on, and it's commonplace throughout the bible and demonstrably undeniable in the case of various pseudo-Peters and pseudo-Pauls. Nobody's been near criticizing the technique of parable.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Does The Bible Actually Lie?
Ah, true. I'll not pretend I finished reading the article.
I know a lot of what was inspirational story telling was bastardized and shaped into hypnosis tools by ill intentioned men. I have read more old testament than new and only researched the background of old testament, relying on my previous knowledge that the new testament is insidious evil.
(eta: there's the baby and there is the bath water)
I know a lot of what was inspirational story telling was bastardized and shaped into hypnosis tools by ill intentioned men. I have read more old testament than new and only researched the background of old testament, relying on my previous knowledge that the new testament is insidious evil.
(eta: there's the baby and there is the bath water)
Does The Bible Actually Lie?
posted by koan
If Jesus was a guy who gave good advice 80% of the time does that other 20% make him a liar? Or if it's reversed, I've not met many people who give good advice 20% of the time either. I've met lots of people who could be called liars but they believed what they said at the time. I've said and done lots of things that I thought were based on sound reason and in hindsight thought, wtf???
That's the problem though isn't it? So far as we know jesus didn't tell lies but we don't know what jesus really said apart from what people wrote about him and the books written by those closest to him were excluded or altered to conform to the party line. It's not a conspiracy theory they were quite open about it even the most cursory research in to the new testament bring up the dates when it was done. Most notably the First Council of Nicaea. I can't for the life of me understand how anyone who reads the bible - old (with all the daft contradictions in it) and new testament and looks at the history of the various versions can possibly take it literally and believe it to be the unchanged word of god or why anyone wants anythng to do with the one in the old testament in the first place.
They're still at it, writing new versions to correct the mistakes of the older versions, they're putting their own spin on it even though they won't admit it. American fundamentalists in particular love to argue about which version is the correct one and revel ion re-writing it - just look at some of the religious threads on this forum. You're using the wrong bible is a common theme. It's like arguing about colour of car you should have rather than just getting in it. If they actually followed some of his teachings, especially the ones about tolerance, the world would be a more peaceful place - whether you happen to believe jesus was divine or not doesn't take away from the overall thrust of his teachings.
If Jesus was a guy who gave good advice 80% of the time does that other 20% make him a liar? Or if it's reversed, I've not met many people who give good advice 20% of the time either. I've met lots of people who could be called liars but they believed what they said at the time. I've said and done lots of things that I thought were based on sound reason and in hindsight thought, wtf???
That's the problem though isn't it? So far as we know jesus didn't tell lies but we don't know what jesus really said apart from what people wrote about him and the books written by those closest to him were excluded or altered to conform to the party line. It's not a conspiracy theory they were quite open about it even the most cursory research in to the new testament bring up the dates when it was done. Most notably the First Council of Nicaea. I can't for the life of me understand how anyone who reads the bible - old (with all the daft contradictions in it) and new testament and looks at the history of the various versions can possibly take it literally and believe it to be the unchanged word of god or why anyone wants anythng to do with the one in the old testament in the first place.
They're still at it, writing new versions to correct the mistakes of the older versions, they're putting their own spin on it even though they won't admit it. American fundamentalists in particular love to argue about which version is the correct one and revel ion re-writing it - just look at some of the religious threads on this forum. You're using the wrong bible is a common theme. It's like arguing about colour of car you should have rather than just getting in it. If they actually followed some of his teachings, especially the ones about tolerance, the world would be a more peaceful place - whether you happen to believe jesus was divine or not doesn't take away from the overall thrust of his teachings.
Does The Bible Actually Lie?
Bryn Mawr;1356897 wrote: Has anyone seen the reports of new documentation dated to the first decades after the crucifixion claimed to be written by the Primitive Christians?
If true it will shed a huge amount of light of the changes the the later Church made to the source data.
BBC News - Jordan battles to regain 'priceless' Christian relics
Thanks for the link!
Seems weird that they unearthed these between 2005 and 2007 yet we're just hearing about it. Hopefully we'll get a chance to hear what they seem to say.
If true it will shed a huge amount of light of the changes the the later Church made to the source data.
BBC News - Jordan battles to regain 'priceless' Christian relics
Thanks for the link!
Seems weird that they unearthed these between 2005 and 2007 yet we're just hearing about it. Hopefully we'll get a chance to hear what they seem to say.
Does The Bible Actually Lie?
koan;1356957 wrote: Thanks for the link!
Seems weird that they unearthed these between 2005 and 2007 yet we're just hearing about it. Hopefully we'll get a chance to hear what they seem to say.
Took them that long to get it out of a country where it would automatically be the property of the museum with a small reward paid to them and into a country where they would "own" it and can sell it to the highest bidder.
The sooner the squabbles are over the sooner the analysis can begin.
Seems weird that they unearthed these between 2005 and 2007 yet we're just hearing about it. Hopefully we'll get a chance to hear what they seem to say.
Took them that long to get it out of a country where it would automatically be the property of the museum with a small reward paid to them and into a country where they would "own" it and can sell it to the highest bidder.
The sooner the squabbles are over the sooner the analysis can begin.
Does The Bible Actually Lie?
saveme7777;57179000 wrote: I dont think the Bible would lie to us now would it?
this is the ultimate question isnt it ?
jesus says '' the divided house must fall ''
later; '' think not i came to bring peace but division and a sword ''
if not a lie it is one of many extreme conflicts in the bible
jesus has said that division is destructive, and that he is the author of ot
jesus also said he would not change any laws
but in the same paragraph he then changes laws
that is much closer to the definition of a lie than the first example
jesus is called the prince of peace yet his last commandment before
cruxcifiction was for his followerrs to buy swords
christians are told to turn the other cheek
yet jesus commited assault with a whip [weapon] at the temple
when these things are pointed out i am told that jesus is god therefore its ok
i reply that they say he is the example to follow therefore all conflict and war is justified by the example
if it could be conclusively demonstrated that the bible DID lie
would you be able to accept it ?
or
would you fight evidence with denial to the end ?
a man who teaches turn the other cheek but doesnt
commits assault with a weapon at a church a crime worthy of capitol punishment
says division is evil but claims to be a master of it
i am wondering now what you are ...
you really got me thinking ...
would the bible lie ?
this is the ultimate question isnt it ?
jesus says '' the divided house must fall ''
later; '' think not i came to bring peace but division and a sword ''
if not a lie it is one of many extreme conflicts in the bible
jesus has said that division is destructive, and that he is the author of ot
jesus also said he would not change any laws
but in the same paragraph he then changes laws
that is much closer to the definition of a lie than the first example
jesus is called the prince of peace yet his last commandment before
cruxcifiction was for his followerrs to buy swords
christians are told to turn the other cheek
yet jesus commited assault with a whip [weapon] at the temple
when these things are pointed out i am told that jesus is god therefore its ok
i reply that they say he is the example to follow therefore all conflict and war is justified by the example
if it could be conclusively demonstrated that the bible DID lie
would you be able to accept it ?
or
would you fight evidence with denial to the end ?
a man who teaches turn the other cheek but doesnt
commits assault with a weapon at a church a crime worthy of capitol punishment
says division is evil but claims to be a master of it
i am wondering now what you are ...
you really got me thinking ...
would the bible lie ?
Does The Bible Actually Lie?
7he4uthor;1357153 wrote: [QUOTE=saveme7777]I dont think the Bible would lie to us now would it?this is the ultimate question isnt it ?
jesus says '' the divided house must fall ''
later; '' think not i came to bring peace but division and a sword ''
Crucifixion's too good for a chap like that. I reckon he should have been whipped first.
You may be the first ever new member to invent a quote to reply to on his very first post. Which, on a thread about lying, is quite an achievement.
Q: What makes you think Jesus had tattoos, of all things?
A: Well he went in for piercings, so I just assumed...
jesus says '' the divided house must fall ''
later; '' think not i came to bring peace but division and a sword ''
Crucifixion's too good for a chap like that. I reckon he should have been whipped first.
You may be the first ever new member to invent a quote to reply to on his very first post. Which, on a thread about lying, is quite an achievement.
Q: What makes you think Jesus had tattoos, of all things?
A: Well he went in for piercings, so I just assumed...
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Does The Bible Actually Lie?
3)- Christ’s Genealogy
Christ’s genealogy is traced through a “surrogate step-father”. The Book of Matthew spends an entire chapter tracing the genealogy (ancestry) of Christ from King David all the way to Joseph, it then goes on to tell us that Joseph did not copulate with Mary making him only a surrogate STEPFATHER to Jesus -(Mat. 1:16, 1:23, 1:25), Elizabeth and Mary would be the only way to trace this bloodline and the texts which follow Mary’s heritage are thin compared to that of Joseph.
Christ’s genealogy is traced through a “surrogate step-father”. The Book of Matthew spends an entire chapter tracing the genealogy (ancestry) of Christ from King David all the way to Joseph, it then goes on to tell us that Joseph did not copulate with Mary making him only a surrogate STEPFATHER to Jesus -(Mat. 1:16, 1:23, 1:25), Elizabeth and Mary would be the only way to trace this bloodline and the texts which follow Mary’s heritage are thin compared to that of Joseph.
Does The Bible Actually Lie?
And - just for completeness - what persuaded you to invent the saveme7777 quote, given that we have no such member and nobody actually said "I dont think the Bible would lie to us now would it?"?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Does The Bible Actually Lie?
for it to lie there has to be some elemant of truth in the first place..............whole thing is made up and those that believe it (or any religeous prattlings) are weakminded fools
The dogs philosophy on life. If you cant eat it, hump it or fight it,........ Pee on it and walk away!!
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