koan;1356063 wrote: Not so much weaseling as trying to get an understanding... which I still haven't gotten an answer for. What percentage of the Libyan people back the rebellion?
Nobody can honestly answer that. Either side would claim to represent the national majority. If anyone claims to know the answer you'll know you're hearing propaganda.
The USA Position on Libya
The USA Position on Libya
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The USA Position on Libya
I did some quick wikipedia reading while waiting for the NeoCitran to kick in and help me get back to sleep. It's classified as a major uprising, not just a few unhappy people with access to guns.
Gaddafi had a policy of killing dissidents before they had a chance to form groups so the existence of a large enough group to have a major uprising seems to already be an impressive accomplishment. At some point, I think the rest of the world is justified in responding with "did you say 'help'?"
Gaddafi had a policy of killing dissidents before they had a chance to form groups so the existence of a large enough group to have a major uprising seems to already be an impressive accomplishment. At some point, I think the rest of the world is justified in responding with "did you say 'help'?"
The USA Position on Libya
spot;1356057 wrote: Did you miss the news clip about the rescue of the two US F16 crew? The Bengazi locals were coming up, shaking their hands, blessing them for helping the cause, and a rescue helicopter came over the ridge and sprayed the crowd with whatever those noisy things are in helicopters that cut civilians on the ground in half when the trigger gets pulled. Anti-aircraft guns, I should imagine. Six dead, I think, if memory serves. It may be common practice in Afghanistan where there's nobody able to watch but it was scarcely appropriate in the circumstances.
"A protester was CUT IN HALF"? My god these Gaddafi troops are such amateurs compared to your all-action heroic GI in a helicopter, don't you think. Your all-action heroic GI in a helicopter can clear a square of sheltering civilians in thirty seconds flat, he doesn't rely on mere ammunition, he uses missiles from a position of utter absolute invulnerability while the couch TV audience applauds admiringly each time the film loop gets played.
With friends like those, who needs an enemy?
I did read the story and while 6 were shot, none died as far as I can see. I'm not legitamising that in any way but do you not see the difference between deliberate targeting of civilians and what turned out to be rescue of a pilot.
How many more rebels do you think might be used for target practice had Gadaffi's troops still had the use of their planes, tanks and artillary ? Its those troops that are indiscriminate surely.
"A protester was CUT IN HALF"? My god these Gaddafi troops are such amateurs compared to your all-action heroic GI in a helicopter, don't you think. Your all-action heroic GI in a helicopter can clear a square of sheltering civilians in thirty seconds flat, he doesn't rely on mere ammunition, he uses missiles from a position of utter absolute invulnerability while the couch TV audience applauds admiringly each time the film loop gets played.
With friends like those, who needs an enemy?
I did read the story and while 6 were shot, none died as far as I can see. I'm not legitamising that in any way but do you not see the difference between deliberate targeting of civilians and what turned out to be rescue of a pilot.
How many more rebels do you think might be used for target practice had Gadaffi's troops still had the use of their planes, tanks and artillary ? Its those troops that are indiscriminate surely.
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire."
Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill
The USA Position on Libya
Snowfire;1356081 wrote: but do you not see the difference between deliberate targeting of civilians and what turned out to be rescue of a pilot.No, and that's where we differ entirely. Deliberate is a smokescreen figleaf the thugs of the Pentagon have hidden behind for decades. If we didn't mean to then it doesn't matter? Of course it matters, it's just as significant an event as if they went in with penknives and slit throats for the hell of it, even if the "collateral damage" happened from miles overhead.
I guarantee that more people are going to die because of the foreign intervention than would have died had it not happened. That, in my book, is unacceptable and non-negotiable. And all the "we didn't mean to" or "that wasn't our objective" in the world won't rub out the bloodstains.
I guarantee that more people are going to die because of the foreign intervention than would have died had it not happened. That, in my book, is unacceptable and non-negotiable. And all the "we didn't mean to" or "that wasn't our objective" in the world won't rub out the bloodstains.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The USA Position on Libya
spot;1356083 wrote: No, and that's where we differ entirely. Deliberate is a smokescreen figleaf the thugs of the Pentagon have hidden behind for decades. If we didn't mean to then it doesn't matter? Of course it matters, it's just as significant an event as if they went in with penknives and slit throats for the hell of it, even if the "collateral damage" happened from miles overhead.
I guarantee that more people are going to die because of the foreign intervention than would have died had it not happened. That, in my book, is unacceptable and non-negotiable. And all the "we didn't mean to" or "that wasn't our objective" in the world won't rub out the bloodstains.
It would help if you didnt legitimise what Gadaffi has and is doing. Your legitimate concerns for lives would carry much more weight if you didn't enjoy the demonising of the US so much. I'm sure somewhere, in amongst your posts in this thread, there is some probable and valid arguements from which we could glean and understand an alternative viewpoint. At the moment all I am getting is a "your devil is more evil than mine" attitude
I guarantee that more people are going to die because of the foreign intervention than would have died had it not happened. That, in my book, is unacceptable and non-negotiable. And all the "we didn't mean to" or "that wasn't our objective" in the world won't rub out the bloodstains.
It would help if you didnt legitimise what Gadaffi has and is doing. Your legitimate concerns for lives would carry much more weight if you didn't enjoy the demonising of the US so much. I'm sure somewhere, in amongst your posts in this thread, there is some probable and valid arguements from which we could glean and understand an alternative viewpoint. At the moment all I am getting is a "your devil is more evil than mine" attitude
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire."
Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill
The USA Position on Libya
I'm disinterested in whether or not Gaddafi is evil. The people of Libya want him out and despite blocking their ability to form opposition they have managed to launch a rebellion. They *really* want him out. Maybe more people will be killed by the air raids then Gaddafi would have killed but then they'd still have Gaddafi after the killing.
They asked for help. They tried to do it on their own and they need help. Why on earth should we not help them?
They asked for help. They tried to do it on their own and they need help. Why on earth should we not help them?
The USA Position on Libya
btw, I guess I've made up my mind on the matter.
The USA Position on Libya
koan;1356087 wrote: They asked for help. They tried to do it on their own and they need help. Why on earth should we not help them?Because I've no idea who they are. Because I've seen the disgusting destabilisation, solely in foreign interests, of too many countries by Western intelligence agencies over the last sixty years to trust that this movement's entirely home-grown instead of initiated from outside. I have no idea whether it's home-grown or not.
If it is then good luck to them but it's an internal matter for Libya. I'm quite emphatic about one point though: without Western intervention, at least some elements of the Libyan armed forces might have sided with them had they offered benefits to the country. With Western intervention it's all hands to the pumps and repel boarders. Western intervention has shored up Gaddafi's position within the country, just as sanctions and no-fly zones did for Saddam. There can be no successful internal coup while there is foreign aggression directed at the country, that's an absolute rule to which I know of no exception.
If it is then good luck to them but it's an internal matter for Libya. I'm quite emphatic about one point though: without Western intervention, at least some elements of the Libyan armed forces might have sided with them had they offered benefits to the country. With Western intervention it's all hands to the pumps and repel boarders. Western intervention has shored up Gaddafi's position within the country, just as sanctions and no-fly zones did for Saddam. There can be no successful internal coup while there is foreign aggression directed at the country, that's an absolute rule to which I know of no exception.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The USA Position on Libya
Snowfire;1356086 wrote: At the moment all I am getting is a "your devil is more evil than mine" attitudeYour devil causes more death and more poverty than mine. "Evil" is just a partisan buzzword to prevent discussion, it prejudges the issues. Judge on results, not on cuteness.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The USA Position on Libya
To hell with it. Kill all of Qadaffis people, bomb Tripoli to dust and be done with it. We can rely on the old standby "the operation was a success but the patient died" excuse.
Yay DEMOCRACY!!
Yay DEMOCRACY!!
The USA Position on Libya
I guarantee that more people are going to die because of the foreign intervention than would have died had it not happened. That, in my book, is unacceptable and non-negotiable. And all the "we didn't mean to" or "that wasn't our objective" in the world won't rub out the bloodstains.
I'll second that. There's news of a small town where the rebels have about a 100 Libyan army personnel surrounded. They have 4 tanks and personal arms, they're running out of ammo. They will fight to the death because it's better than being shot like dogs in the desert. Or worse.
I'll second that. There's news of a small town where the rebels have about a 100 Libyan army personnel surrounded. They have 4 tanks and personal arms, they're running out of ammo. They will fight to the death because it's better than being shot like dogs in the desert. Or worse.
The USA Position on Libya
If the contending parties would just take a while to recollect that each of the opposition once had a mother who loved them we might have fewer people prepared to carry a rifle. And not before time either. Rifles have absolutely no function distinguishable from the barbaric, and military aircraft doubly so.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The USA Position on Libya
spot;1356128 wrote: If the contending parties would just take a while to recollect that each of the opposition once had a mother who loved them we might have fewer people prepared to carry a rifle.
While that's a lovely sentiment, it's simply not true. And you know it.
There are many people of many nations who aren't lucky enough to have parents that love them. Some are even actively hated by their parents. If everyone was loved, yes, it would be a better world. I have to remind myself quite often that we don't live in that world and there are a lot of bitter, insecure people who grew up thinking that power and money are the only way to get love.
While that's a lovely sentiment, it's simply not true. And you know it.
There are many people of many nations who aren't lucky enough to have parents that love them. Some are even actively hated by their parents. If everyone was loved, yes, it would be a better world. I have to remind myself quite often that we don't live in that world and there are a lot of bitter, insecure people who grew up thinking that power and money are the only way to get love.
The USA Position on Libya
Libya will play itself in civil war. But this has now spread to Syria
Activists call for Friday protests in Syria - Middle East - Al Jazeera English
There'll be no intervention there that's for sure the syrian military are big enough to put up a fight. For all the rhetoric about freedom and democracy what it boils down to is that the people of the liberal democracies like america and the united states let their governments do things to others in their name that the vast majority of people would actually oppose and stand against if it were being done to them and it just goes on and on.
posted by spot
There can be no successful internal coup while there is foreign aggression directed at the country, that's an absolute rule to which I know of no exception.
Good grief that is a copmment I wholeheartedly agree with. Saddam would have eventually fallen, we didn't need to go in, Iran will sort itself out I don't fancy the chances of the saudi royal family holding on to power. It's ironic the biggest supporter of an absolutist monarchy is the world's most powerful republic. If it wasn't for the oil no one would be their friend.
Oh Dear
http://213.251.145.96/cable/2009/08/09TRIPOLI677.html
Activists call for Friday protests in Syria - Middle East - Al Jazeera English
There'll be no intervention there that's for sure the syrian military are big enough to put up a fight. For all the rhetoric about freedom and democracy what it boils down to is that the people of the liberal democracies like america and the united states let their governments do things to others in their name that the vast majority of people would actually oppose and stand against if it were being done to them and it just goes on and on.
posted by spot
There can be no successful internal coup while there is foreign aggression directed at the country, that's an absolute rule to which I know of no exception.
Good grief that is a copmment I wholeheartedly agree with. Saddam would have eventually fallen, we didn't need to go in, Iran will sort itself out I don't fancy the chances of the saudi royal family holding on to power. It's ironic the biggest supporter of an absolutist monarchy is the world's most powerful republic. If it wasn't for the oil no one would be their friend.
Oh Dear
http://213.251.145.96/cable/2009/08/09TRIPOLI677.html
The USA Position on Libya
It's long and it's detailed and it's full of unfamiliar names but I suggest The CIA’s Libya Rebels as in-depth background on the pertinent question of who the rebels leadership consists of, who's backing them and how long it's all been building up. The whole article's interesting even when it seems to be going in obscure directions.
Rather than just dismissing it as partisan and consequently unacceptable, at least consider that the guy writing it knows more about the subject than the rest of us put together.
Rather than just dismissing it as partisan and consequently unacceptable, at least consider that the guy writing it knows more about the subject than the rest of us put together.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The USA Position on Libya
spot;1356203 wrote: It's long and it's detailed and it's full of unfamiliar names but I suggest The CIA’s Libya Rebels as in-depth background on the pertinent question of who the rebels leadership consists of, who's backing them and how long it's all been building up. The whole article's interesting even when it seems to be going in obscure directions.
Rather than just dismissing it as partisan and consequently unacceptable, at least consider that the guy writing it knows more about the subject than the rest of us put together.
Aside from being very reader unfriendly, Tarpley seems to think the CIA is behind everything.
Washington DC, March 15, 2011 – In the late winter of 2011, governments were for a few weeks falling like bowling pins all across the Middle East and far beyond. We are witnessing a massive orgy of deliberate destabilizations of previous client regimes on the part of the CIA, the State Department, the National Endowment for Democracy, and the various NGOs and foundations which follow their lead. This has taken the form of a mad rampage of attempted color revolutions, people power coups, putsches by camarillas of generals, and incipient civil wars in such countries as Tunisia, Egypt, Bahrain, Yemen, Algeria, Saudi Arabia, Iran, and others, with the tremors being felt as far away as Belarus and China.
from his website
Hey, maybe he's right... but it seems like someone could have given him the advice Icke got but didn't follow: "don't tell them about the lizards"
Rather than just dismissing it as partisan and consequently unacceptable, at least consider that the guy writing it knows more about the subject than the rest of us put together.
Aside from being very reader unfriendly, Tarpley seems to think the CIA is behind everything.
Washington DC, March 15, 2011 – In the late winter of 2011, governments were for a few weeks falling like bowling pins all across the Middle East and far beyond. We are witnessing a massive orgy of deliberate destabilizations of previous client regimes on the part of the CIA, the State Department, the National Endowment for Democracy, and the various NGOs and foundations which follow their lead. This has taken the form of a mad rampage of attempted color revolutions, people power coups, putsches by camarillas of generals, and incipient civil wars in such countries as Tunisia, Egypt, Bahrain, Yemen, Algeria, Saudi Arabia, Iran, and others, with the tremors being felt as far away as Belarus and China.
from his website
Hey, maybe he's right... but it seems like someone could have given him the advice Icke got but didn't follow: "don't tell them about the lizards"
The USA Position on Libya
I have no doubt the large majority of armed rebels are genuinely anti-Gaddafi, though I'd note the Islamic extremist tendency of people across the entire Benghazi region and that the army base fell following a massive detonation by a suicidal car-bomber, something familiar on the streets of Baghdad. The existing Libyan government is yet another secular Arab republic to come under attack by religious fanatics led by people with murky intelligence connections.
I question the credentials of their leadership, not unreasonably. And both the author of the article and I have a list of precedent destabilizing CIA acts with just the same smell as this, and it's a list you're familiar with. You may not want to believe in multiple causes or parallel actors but surely that's the sort of complication you can expect.
I question the credentials of their leadership, not unreasonably. And both the author of the article and I have a list of precedent destabilizing CIA acts with just the same smell as this, and it's a list you're familiar with. You may not want to believe in multiple causes or parallel actors but surely that's the sort of complication you can expect.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The USA Position on Libya
My initial hesitation to take a position on Libya was because I am aware there are proxy wars and wondered the source of the rebels.
Having looked into it and been forced to lean on my gut feelings a bit, I decided that there would be no possible way for the rebels to have been visible prior to the rebellion as Gaddafi, by policy, publicly executed dissenters. It actually only takes a small amount of research to see that Gaddafi strictly prevented the people from ever being able to organize a successful coup. That's my guess as to why we didn't hear of them before and why they seem to be lacking a good plan.
Having looked into it and been forced to lean on my gut feelings a bit, I decided that there would be no possible way for the rebels to have been visible prior to the rebellion as Gaddafi, by policy, publicly executed dissenters. It actually only takes a small amount of research to see that Gaddafi strictly prevented the people from ever being able to organize a successful coup. That's my guess as to why we didn't hear of them before and why they seem to be lacking a good plan.
The USA Position on Libya
koan;1356213 wrote: Gaddafi, by policy, publicly executed dissenters.Go on then, let's start dismantling a bit at a time. Where do you get that detail from?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The USA Position on Libya
spot;1356215 wrote: Go on then, let's start dismantling a bit at a time. Where do you get that detail from?
Muammar Gaddafi executed dissidents publicly and the executions were often rebroadcast on state television channels.
Libya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Muammar Gaddafi executed dissidents publicly and the executions were often rebroadcast on state television channels.
Libya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The USA Position on Libya
koan;1356216 wrote: Libya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
If you follow the citation, that refers to a failed coup by 25 army officers in 1974. Of course they were executed in public, what on earth do you expect? It was 35 years ago and Gaddafi was still consolidating his position. What you wrote had all the appearance of him doing it, say, within the last decade for example. Which, of course, he hasn't.
These opposition groups are centred in several European capitals. Nobody organizes a Middle Eastern opposition movement from within a country, it would be tantamount to suicide. That doesn't prevent it from happening abroad though. London, during the Cold War, was awash with aging governments in exile.
If you follow the citation, that refers to a failed coup by 25 army officers in 1974. Of course they were executed in public, what on earth do you expect? It was 35 years ago and Gaddafi was still consolidating his position. What you wrote had all the appearance of him doing it, say, within the last decade for example. Which, of course, he hasn't.
These opposition groups are centred in several European capitals. Nobody organizes a Middle Eastern opposition movement from within a country, it would be tantamount to suicide. That doesn't prevent it from happening abroad though. London, during the Cold War, was awash with aging governments in exile.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The USA Position on Libya
additionally, I've so far found references from reasonable sources to the execution of student protesters in the 70s, 130 soldiers who refused to fire on protesters in February, the recent mock execution of BBC reporters as part of their torture (yes it was mock but it lends to the credibility of other accusations) and there is a list that I'm about to look into at Littany of Crimes
The USA Position on Libya
Dissent is illegal under Law 75 of 1973. Gaddafi has said that "execution is the fate of anyone who forms a political party".[18]
Muammar Gaddafi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Qadhafi's speeches reflected his ruthlessness. He warned anyone who tried to organize politically that they would face repression. "I could at any moment send them to the People's Court … and the People's Court will issue a sentence of death based on this law, because execution is the fate of anyone who forms a political party," Qadhafi said during a speech in Tripoli on November 9, 1974.[10] He backed his threats with action. There were public hangings and mutilations of political opponents.
Libya and the U.S.: Qadhafi Unrepentant :: Middle East Quarterly
Daif Abdul-kareem Al-Ghazal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Murdered for criticising the government
Fathi Eljahmi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia was Libya's "most prominent democratic dissident"
can we say I've found enough to back my statement?
Muammar Gaddafi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Qadhafi's speeches reflected his ruthlessness. He warned anyone who tried to organize politically that they would face repression. "I could at any moment send them to the People's Court … and the People's Court will issue a sentence of death based on this law, because execution is the fate of anyone who forms a political party," Qadhafi said during a speech in Tripoli on November 9, 1974.[10] He backed his threats with action. There were public hangings and mutilations of political opponents.
Libya and the U.S.: Qadhafi Unrepentant :: Middle East Quarterly
Daif Abdul-kareem Al-Ghazal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Murdered for criticising the government
Fathi Eljahmi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia was Libya's "most prominent democratic dissident"
can we say I've found enough to back my statement?
The USA Position on Libya
As far as the seventies goes, obviously. The mock execution? Have you the slightest idea how many times Western prison guards have done that to Iraqi detainees since 2003? Internal security murdering journalists isn't unknown their either - ask the Italians or Al Jazeera. And people die of natural causes in prisons all around the world, I'm not sure what Fathi Eljahmi is doing on your list other than that he was in jail for dissidence in the first place.
You're left with "130 soldiers who refused to fire on protesters in February" which, if true, would suggest the man's unfit to govern. Maybe we could chase that down to a few facts too.
You're left with "130 soldiers who refused to fire on protesters in February" which, if true, would suggest the man's unfit to govern. Maybe we could chase that down to a few facts too.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The USA Position on Libya
I'll remind you that I'm not trying to prove Gaddafi is the worst leader in the world. I'm trying to validate my statement that he prevented dissidents from making themselves known.
There was a "law 75" passed that made it illegal to criticise the government. There is a list of actions taken that enforce that law. I don't see what else you can reasonably ask me to provide to justify my statement. The point is that there is good reason why no one can find much info about where the rebels came from, how they formed, how long they've existed, or why they're disorganised.
There was a "law 75" passed that made it illegal to criticise the government. There is a list of actions taken that enforce that law. I don't see what else you can reasonably ask me to provide to justify my statement. The point is that there is good reason why no one can find much info about where the rebels came from, how they formed, how long they've existed, or why they're disorganised.
The USA Position on Libya
I'm finding evidence of executions for dissent in every decade. I'd keep posting them as I find them but it has started to seem like an issue of wasting my time. I know you know how to google.
It is fact.
Current laws allow capital punishment forhigh treason; attempt to forcibly change the form of government; premeditated murder
18 executions in 2010
Use of capital punishment by nation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Asking me to fill in the blanks for every decade and every instance is unreasonable.
It is fact.
Current laws allow capital punishment forhigh treason; attempt to forcibly change the form of government; premeditated murder
18 executions in 2010
Use of capital punishment by nation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Asking me to fill in the blanks for every decade and every instance is unreasonable.
The USA Position on Libya
I'll quote the AP newsflash that came from in full, since it's all relevant and it's short and leaving a bit out would invalidate my point.LIBYA: 18 PEOPLE EXECUTED BY FIRING SQUAD
May 30, 2010: eighteen people including nationals of Nigeria, Chad and Egypt were executed in Libya after being convicted of premeditated murder, Libya's online Qurina news website reported.
Of the 18, 14 were executed in the capital, Tripoli, while the four other executions were carried out in Benghazi. Their identities have not been made public by Libyan authorities.
"In the case of Libya, we fear that death sentences are handed down after proceedings which fail to satisfy international standards for fair trial," Amnesty International said.
More than 200 people are currently on death row in Libya, Qurina reported. "They are believed to include a large number of foreign nationals against whom the death penalty appears to be used disproportionately," Amnesty said.
"They are often not provided with interpretation or translation assistance during legal proceedings, which are conducted in Arabic, or access to their own government’s consular representatives," Amnesty added.
It said, "foreign nationals are also at a disadvantage compared to Libyans in seeking commutation of their death sentences because they generally have limited financial means and lack a family network in Libya that can assist them by negotiating with the family of their alleged victim." (Sources: AFP, 02/06/2010)
http://www.handsoffcain.info/archivio_n ... 99&mover=0
None of that's for dissent. Your execution of dissenters all stem from 1974/75. You've produced one journalist dying in custody - I can give you twenty UK nationals dying in custody after a police station thrashing during the same ten-year period, it's what police do everywhere in the world because they're self-selecting sadists.
I'm still interested in the killing of 130 soldiers who refused to fire on protesters in February though. Did that actually happen?
May 30, 2010: eighteen people including nationals of Nigeria, Chad and Egypt were executed in Libya after being convicted of premeditated murder, Libya's online Qurina news website reported.
Of the 18, 14 were executed in the capital, Tripoli, while the four other executions were carried out in Benghazi. Their identities have not been made public by Libyan authorities.
"In the case of Libya, we fear that death sentences are handed down after proceedings which fail to satisfy international standards for fair trial," Amnesty International said.
More than 200 people are currently on death row in Libya, Qurina reported. "They are believed to include a large number of foreign nationals against whom the death penalty appears to be used disproportionately," Amnesty said.
"They are often not provided with interpretation or translation assistance during legal proceedings, which are conducted in Arabic, or access to their own government’s consular representatives," Amnesty added.
It said, "foreign nationals are also at a disadvantage compared to Libyans in seeking commutation of their death sentences because they generally have limited financial means and lack a family network in Libya that can assist them by negotiating with the family of their alleged victim." (Sources: AFP, 02/06/2010)
http://www.handsoffcain.info/archivio_n ... 99&mover=0
None of that's for dissent. Your execution of dissenters all stem from 1974/75. You've produced one journalist dying in custody - I can give you twenty UK nationals dying in custody after a police station thrashing during the same ten-year period, it's what police do everywhere in the world because they're self-selecting sadists.
I'm still interested in the killing of 130 soldiers who refused to fire on protesters in February though. Did that actually happen?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The USA Position on Libya
BTW guys and gals, wasn't this supposed to be a no fly zone? As in no Libyan aircraft in the skies? It looks like we have mission drift here, next it will be boots on the ground. If there isn't already.
YouTube - RAF Tornado jet destroys Libyan tanks
YouTube - RAF Tornado jet destroys Libyan tanks
The USA Position on Libya
spot;1356258 wrote:
I'm still interested in the killing of 130 soldiers who refused to fire on protesters in February though. Did that actually happen?
You're asking me to provide and prove details for a country which is not transparent and is not my own country. To which I do not have full access of records.
I do, however still have the fact that Law 75 makes it illegal by punishment of death to be a dissenter. Convince me that is irrelevant. I don't need specific examples when I have that law to quote.
I don't believe the UK, Canada or the USA have a comparable law.
I'm still interested in the killing of 130 soldiers who refused to fire on protesters in February though. Did that actually happen?
You're asking me to provide and prove details for a country which is not transparent and is not my own country. To which I do not have full access of records.
I do, however still have the fact that Law 75 makes it illegal by punishment of death to be a dissenter. Convince me that is irrelevant. I don't need specific examples when I have that law to quote.
I don't believe the UK, Canada or the USA have a comparable law.
The USA Position on Libya
I'm not actually asking for that, I'm saying I don't believe your premise. I'm saying that back in the 70s the revolution was bedding in and dealt severely with an attempted coup d'etat. For some reason you're labeling it dissent, it was no such thing, it was an attempted overthrow of the state. There quite simply aren't subsequent events of the sort you're trying to suggest. There is, I agree, rhetoric from the head of state which would be considered out of place in Westminster. That's scarcely a crime.
I wouldn't be particularly sad to see Gaddafi go. I'll be horrified if he goes by reason of a NATO attack though. Western aggression can best be prevented in future by proving ineffective, counter-productive and more lethal than the system it tried to overturn. That's what happened in Iraq, and I applaud the outcome. It's happening in Afghanistan and I'd be upset were it otherwise, the so-called "coalition of the willing" is busy training up an Afghan army and police force which will end up working for a nouveau-Taliban administration when the West pulls out. The lesson of the Shah simply hasn't been learned yet.
The exile leaders of the Libyan rebels don't strike me as idealists at all, just as pro-Western Iraqis didn't before the "liberation". I suggest they'll turn out to be opportunist collaborators fronting Western agendas. Meanwhile we still have euphemistic headlines of "RAF destroys tanks" instead of the far more accurate and meaningful "UK pilot kills yet more Libyans".
I wouldn't be particularly sad to see Gaddafi go. I'll be horrified if he goes by reason of a NATO attack though. Western aggression can best be prevented in future by proving ineffective, counter-productive and more lethal than the system it tried to overturn. That's what happened in Iraq, and I applaud the outcome. It's happening in Afghanistan and I'd be upset were it otherwise, the so-called "coalition of the willing" is busy training up an Afghan army and police force which will end up working for a nouveau-Taliban administration when the West pulls out. The lesson of the Shah simply hasn't been learned yet.
The exile leaders of the Libyan rebels don't strike me as idealists at all, just as pro-Western Iraqis didn't before the "liberation". I suggest they'll turn out to be opportunist collaborators fronting Western agendas. Meanwhile we still have euphemistic headlines of "RAF destroys tanks" instead of the far more accurate and meaningful "UK pilot kills yet more Libyans".
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The USA Position on Libya
The problem here, for me, is that you implied the reasons I gave for my opinion can be broken apart and found baseless one point at a time.
I've continued trying to get the time to gather all the resources of the internet into a coherent proof but I just don't have the time to copy paste all the bits and links. If I didn't care about copyright it would have been easy enough to just grab everything I read that compounded and paste it all here. The information is all out there in sufficient enough volume to justify my opinion and my statements. Aside from time, because I seem to be wasting a lot of it atm,I just don't have the patience right now to spell it out like the alphabet. So I'm not going to give you links, I'll just summarize the proofs that can be found by searching.
Unlike the UK, USA and Canada, people in Libya cannot form political parties and try to run in an election. They cannot openly voice dissent without fear of severe punishment. They live in fear of saying the wrong thing in public as Gaddafi has no less than seven organisations to root out dissenters and protect the regime. Aside from the documented executions of dissidents and declared traitors, Gaddafi has order the assassinations of numerous Libyans living in exile and maintains a bounty on the heads of the people in the list who have not yet been killed. They are referred to as "stray dogs" unlike the current rats and cockroaches who make up the esteemed population of his country.
The information on who was executed and for what vary according to who wrote the report and when, most likely because Libya does not bother with records regarding who is in prison for what. They don't feel the need for petty details like what the crime was and whether they were sentenced to prison for a year, five years, or death row.
One of the students executed by hanging in the seventies was not actually the student who was at the protest. That bloke got away so they took his cousin in his place. So it was an execution for public display without regard for who actually committed the crimes as would be a concern if the executions were a legitimate response.
Can we be agreed that rebels can now have existed without anyone previously knowing of them or hearing of their agenda in advance?
I've continued trying to get the time to gather all the resources of the internet into a coherent proof but I just don't have the time to copy paste all the bits and links. If I didn't care about copyright it would have been easy enough to just grab everything I read that compounded and paste it all here. The information is all out there in sufficient enough volume to justify my opinion and my statements. Aside from time, because I seem to be wasting a lot of it atm,I just don't have the patience right now to spell it out like the alphabet. So I'm not going to give you links, I'll just summarize the proofs that can be found by searching.
Unlike the UK, USA and Canada, people in Libya cannot form political parties and try to run in an election. They cannot openly voice dissent without fear of severe punishment. They live in fear of saying the wrong thing in public as Gaddafi has no less than seven organisations to root out dissenters and protect the regime. Aside from the documented executions of dissidents and declared traitors, Gaddafi has order the assassinations of numerous Libyans living in exile and maintains a bounty on the heads of the people in the list who have not yet been killed. They are referred to as "stray dogs" unlike the current rats and cockroaches who make up the esteemed population of his country.
The information on who was executed and for what vary according to who wrote the report and when, most likely because Libya does not bother with records regarding who is in prison for what. They don't feel the need for petty details like what the crime was and whether they were sentenced to prison for a year, five years, or death row.
One of the students executed by hanging in the seventies was not actually the student who was at the protest. That bloke got away so they took his cousin in his place. So it was an execution for public display without regard for who actually committed the crimes as would be a concern if the executions were a legitimate response.
Can we be agreed that rebels can now have existed without anyone previously knowing of them or hearing of their agenda in advance?
The USA Position on Libya
koan;1356287 wrote: Can we be agreed that rebels can now have existed without anyone previously knowing of them or hearing of their agenda in advance?
Those who haven't lived in exile, yes. I suggest that the exiles are the ones who'll come out on top, and that they've been dealing with Western intelligence agencies for decades and are extremely well known to both politicians, academics and the press. You perhaps think they're sidelined by home-grown rebels. We'll see, given time.
"They don't feel the need for petty details like what the crime was and whether they were sentenced to prison for a year, five years, or death row" sounds like a flight of fancy rather than a description of Libya either now, ten years ago or in the seventies either.
The rest's fine. I contend that none of it is as gross or outrageous as NATO killing Libyans. I contend that the Libyan army's loyalty to the regime was uncertain before the foreign aggression started - Generals were defecting to the rebel cause. NATO's intervention put an immediate stop to all possibility of a successful internal handover of power and, in my opinion, took the wind out of the rebellion's sails. Libyans have taken to standing back and watching, the attempted revolt is over, the foreign invasion is in progress. Starting it was the height of stupidity.
Those who haven't lived in exile, yes. I suggest that the exiles are the ones who'll come out on top, and that they've been dealing with Western intelligence agencies for decades and are extremely well known to both politicians, academics and the press. You perhaps think they're sidelined by home-grown rebels. We'll see, given time.
"They don't feel the need for petty details like what the crime was and whether they were sentenced to prison for a year, five years, or death row" sounds like a flight of fancy rather than a description of Libya either now, ten years ago or in the seventies either.
The rest's fine. I contend that none of it is as gross or outrageous as NATO killing Libyans. I contend that the Libyan army's loyalty to the regime was uncertain before the foreign aggression started - Generals were defecting to the rebel cause. NATO's intervention put an immediate stop to all possibility of a successful internal handover of power and, in my opinion, took the wind out of the rebellion's sails. Libyans have taken to standing back and watching, the attempted revolt is over, the foreign invasion is in progress. Starting it was the height of stupidity.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The USA Position on Libya
It may sound like a flight of fancy but it's stated from multiple sources. They don't keep records of what people were convicted of or sentenced for.
You speak out against the US having capital punishment yet poo-poo it when it comes to other countries. You speak out against the USA about a lot of things that seem to be okey dokey in other places because they aren't as bad as the USA. I'm not interested in whether or not you are an American hater, I'm just saying it's bad or it isn't bad. It doesn't matter who does it worse if it's bad... it's still bad.
The big difference is that Libyan people are involved in a mass protest and revolt against their government whereas the others you compare them to are not. Compare away. I'm just saying that I support the voice of the poeple and the Libyan people are saying help us. So far the Americans, Canadians, Brits and French have not asked for help so I'm not concerning myself with them. If the Americans call out to the world asking for us to help them revolt I'd be just as supportive as I am of the Libyans. I suspect they aren't that unhappy right now.
What do you have against the Libyans that you don't wish to allow the will of the people to be heard?
You speak out against the US having capital punishment yet poo-poo it when it comes to other countries. You speak out against the USA about a lot of things that seem to be okey dokey in other places because they aren't as bad as the USA. I'm not interested in whether or not you are an American hater, I'm just saying it's bad or it isn't bad. It doesn't matter who does it worse if it's bad... it's still bad.
The big difference is that Libyan people are involved in a mass protest and revolt against their government whereas the others you compare them to are not. Compare away. I'm just saying that I support the voice of the poeple and the Libyan people are saying help us. So far the Americans, Canadians, Brits and French have not asked for help so I'm not concerning myself with them. If the Americans call out to the world asking for us to help them revolt I'd be just as supportive as I am of the Libyans. I suspect they aren't that unhappy right now.
What do you have against the Libyans that you don't wish to allow the will of the people to be heard?
The USA Position on Libya
I'll admit I'm reading what you write with the taint of you having called me a weasel and implied that my view of whether the rebels are legitimate or not is colouring the way I read your replies.
There is the possibility you just said that you think the rebels would have done just fine without intervention and we've messed it up for them. It's possible you said that but I've overlooked it because.... They bloody asked us for help.
There is the possibility you just said that you think the rebels would have done just fine without intervention and we've messed it up for them. It's possible you said that but I've overlooked it because.... They bloody asked us for help.
The USA Position on Libya
spot;1356288 wrote: Those who haven't lived in exile, yes. I suggest that the exiles are the ones who'll come out on top, and that they've been dealing with Western intelligence agencies for decades and are extremely well known to both politicians, academics and the press. You perhaps think they're sidelined by home-grown rebels. We'll see, given time.
Congrats. You've really got my goat on this topic.
I expect the hitlisted exiles will come out well also. They won't have to worry about assassination anymore and they'll be living in countries that aren't recovering from civil war. Well done, if Gaddafi ceases to have the power to kill them anymore.
Congrats. You've really got my goat on this topic.
I expect the hitlisted exiles will come out well also. They won't have to worry about assassination anymore and they'll be living in countries that aren't recovering from civil war. Well done, if Gaddafi ceases to have the power to kill them anymore.
The USA Position on Libya
koan;1356290 wrote: I'll admit I'm reading what you write with the taint of you having called me a weasel and implied that my view of whether the rebels are legitimate or not is colouring the way I read your replies.It's a technical term, using weasel words. I did explain in the same sentence what the error was. "If it is thousands or tens of thousands within a small area then it's representing a fair percentage of the people's will" makes sense as a local analysis. The words "within a small area" are needed to make the first statement true but you then go on as if "it's representing a fair percentage of the people's will" nationally. It's not, it's only doing that "within a small area". They're the weasel words. You're not a weasel, you used a commonplace politicians verbal trick called weaseling. You used weasel-words. You'll be telling me next that I called you a commonplace politician, which would be far worse, and I didn't do that either.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The USA Position on Libya
I take it as a double meaning. I'm aware that it's a term.
I'm not going to pull out of the bag all the tricks I think you're using because I'm trying to have a normal conversation using simple words instead of a debate. I don't have time for properly phrased debates.
My wording was chosen to try and avoid being side tracked into discussions of what is required to show a majority based on actual population figures which I didn't want to look up. Ten thousand people in Libya is a much bigger percentage than ten thousand in China. Ten thousand people in the streets of one town represents much more than ten thousand people spread out over a whole country.
I'm not going to pull out of the bag all the tricks I think you're using because I'm trying to have a normal conversation using simple words instead of a debate. I don't have time for properly phrased debates.
My wording was chosen to try and avoid being side tracked into discussions of what is required to show a majority based on actual population figures which I didn't want to look up. Ten thousand people in Libya is a much bigger percentage than ten thousand in China. Ten thousand people in the streets of one town represents much more than ten thousand people spread out over a whole country.
The USA Position on Libya
The rebels claim to be fielding an army of 17,000. That's one Libyan in a thousand. I don't think you can estimate support for the movement by the numbers who've actually done something about it. Neither can you judge the level of support for the government, though I note the government is arming the population which suggests pretty major faith in their loyalty. I'd not be surprised if the divisions were entirely tribal and have nothing whatever to do with democracy or "freedom", either for or against.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The USA Position on Libya
Ok. My kid's sleepover is done, I'm no longer trying to cook dinner while on the phone with telus mobility about why I'm being double billed, still sick after a month of coughing and sneezing, and trying to simultaneously work out what kind of magical wonderland is creating itself in the Middle East and North Africa.
If I went back to reread this thread I'd probably wince so lets start fresh.
I'm just on page two but this seems to be a really great article summarizing Libya and the history behind all of the current rebellions in the area. Anti Gaddafi and anti West. It reads like it's ten times more informed than the conspiracy theorist from earlier.
allAfrica.com: Libya: Opposing Gaddafi's Massacre And Foreign Intervention in Libya (Page 1 of 3)
On the surface, it may seem to be a contradiction to oppose both the West and Gaddafi, but this contradiction arises from the reality that there is no popular democratic force in Africa capable of mounting the kind of intervention that is necessary to translate Article 4(h) of the Constitutive Act (the charter) of the African Union into action.
If I went back to reread this thread I'd probably wince so lets start fresh.
I'm just on page two but this seems to be a really great article summarizing Libya and the history behind all of the current rebellions in the area. Anti Gaddafi and anti West. It reads like it's ten times more informed than the conspiracy theorist from earlier.
allAfrica.com: Libya: Opposing Gaddafi's Massacre And Foreign Intervention in Libya (Page 1 of 3)
On the surface, it may seem to be a contradiction to oppose both the West and Gaddafi, but this contradiction arises from the reality that there is no popular democratic force in Africa capable of mounting the kind of intervention that is necessary to translate Article 4(h) of the Constitutive Act (the charter) of the African Union into action.
The USA Position on Libya
You're not being overly dismissive of my last post are you, by just walking straight past it?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The USA Position on Libya
spot;1356356 wrote: You're not being overly dismissive of my last post are you, by just walking straight past it?
I didn't realise there was an issue for me to address. If I had to pick one as likely I'd guess it is "I note the government is arming the population which suggests pretty major faith in their loyalty." But there are a lot of things going on and Gaddafi is likely going to have to pull a rabbit out of a hat. I'd not be surprised if he was arming them to instill loyalty instead of the reverse.
I didn't realise there was an issue for me to address. If I had to pick one as likely I'd guess it is "I note the government is arming the population which suggests pretty major faith in their loyalty." But there are a lot of things going on and Gaddafi is likely going to have to pull a rabbit out of a hat. I'd not be surprised if he was arming them to instill loyalty instead of the reverse.
The USA Position on Libya
So, put your money where your mouth is. What do you bet he's still in power at the start of next year?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The USA Position on Libya
My prediction is that he'll be ousted and someone no more appealing will take his place. The country will wonder if they made a mistake and there will be further threats of revolution. If Gaddafi survives the current events he might make a bid to come back and take the country over again.
I sort of think he'd be wise to leave so he can survive and come back to take it over again.
I sort of think he'd be wise to leave so he can survive and come back to take it over again.
The USA Position on Libya
I think that ultimately he will leave power also. When and how I can't say. I also predict that America and NATO is going to expand their power throughout the region.
The USA Position on Libya
Reported in the Globe & Mail and the Toronto Star:
A distraught Libyan woman stormed into a Tripoli hotel Saturday to tell foreign reporters that government troops raped her, setting off a brawl when hotel staff and government minders tried to detained her.
Iman al-Obeidi was tackled by waitresses and government minders as she sat telling her story to journalists after she rushed into the restaurant at the Rixos hotel where a number of foreign journalists were eating breakfast.
She claimed loudly that troops had detained her a checkpoint, tied her up, abused her, then led her away to be gang raped.
Her story could not be independently verified, but the dramatic scene provided a rare firsthand glimpse of the brutal crackdown on public dissent by Moammar Gadhafi's regime as the Libyan leader fights a rebellion against his rule that began last month.
The regime has been keeping up a drumbeat of propaganda in the Tripoli-centered west of the country under its control even as it faces a weeklong international air campaign against the Libyan military.
At a hastily arranged press conference after the incident, government spokesman Moussa Ibrahim said investigators had told him the woman was drunk and possibly mentally challenged.
Before she was dragged out of the hotel, Ms. al-Obeidi managed to tell journalists that she was detained by a number of troops at a Tripoli checkpoint on Wednesday. She said they were drinking whiskey and handcuffed her. She said 15 men later raped her.
“They tied me up ... they even defecated and urinated on me,” she said, her face streaming with tears. “The Gadhafi militiamen violated my honour.”
The woman, who appeared in her 30's, wore a black robe and a floral scarf around her neck and identified herself. She had scratches on her face and she pulled up her black robe to reveal a bloodied thigh. She said neighbours in the area where she was detained helped her escape.
The Associated Press only identifies rape victims who volunteer their names.
As Ms. al-Obeidi spoke, a hotel waitress brandished a butter knife, a government minder reached for his handgun and another waitress pulled a jacket tightly over her head.
Ms. Al-Obeidi said she was targeted by the troops because she's from the eastern city of Benghazi, a rebel stronghold.
The waiters called her a traitor and told her to shut up. She retorted: “Easterners – we're all Libyan brothers, we are supposed to be treated the same, but this is what the Gadhafi militiamen did to me, they violated my honor.”
It soon turned into a scene of chaos with journalists attempting to protect the woman from government minders who physically attacked and intimidated her.
Journalists who tried to intervene were pushed out of the way by the minders. A British television reporter was punched, and CNN's camera was smashed on the ground and ripped to pieces by the government minders.
Eventually the minders overpowered the woman and led her outside, shoving her into a car that sped away. Ms. Al-Obeidi kept crying that she was certain she would be thrown in jail. She begged photographers to take her picture, raising her robe to show them her bruised body. A minder tried to cover her mouth with his hand to keep her from talking.
“Look at what happens – Gadhafi's militiamen kidnap women at gunpoint, and rape them ... they rape them,” Ms. al-Obeidi screamed.
She said she wanted to be taken to see the leader himself.
“I want to see Moammar Gadhafi. Didn't he say that every victim will have justice? I want my rights,” she said.
The government spokesman said the woman was under investigation.
“The investigators did phone me and told me the lady is drunk and that she seems to be suffering mentally,” Mr. Ibrahim said. “They are checking on her health condition, her mental condition, whether she was really abused or if these were fantasies.”
A distraught Libyan woman stormed into a Tripoli hotel Saturday to tell foreign reporters that government troops raped her, setting off a brawl when hotel staff and government minders tried to detained her.
Iman al-Obeidi was tackled by waitresses and government minders as she sat telling her story to journalists after she rushed into the restaurant at the Rixos hotel where a number of foreign journalists were eating breakfast.
She claimed loudly that troops had detained her a checkpoint, tied her up, abused her, then led her away to be gang raped.
Her story could not be independently verified, but the dramatic scene provided a rare firsthand glimpse of the brutal crackdown on public dissent by Moammar Gadhafi's regime as the Libyan leader fights a rebellion against his rule that began last month.
The regime has been keeping up a drumbeat of propaganda in the Tripoli-centered west of the country under its control even as it faces a weeklong international air campaign against the Libyan military.
At a hastily arranged press conference after the incident, government spokesman Moussa Ibrahim said investigators had told him the woman was drunk and possibly mentally challenged.
Before she was dragged out of the hotel, Ms. al-Obeidi managed to tell journalists that she was detained by a number of troops at a Tripoli checkpoint on Wednesday. She said they were drinking whiskey and handcuffed her. She said 15 men later raped her.
“They tied me up ... they even defecated and urinated on me,” she said, her face streaming with tears. “The Gadhafi militiamen violated my honour.”
The woman, who appeared in her 30's, wore a black robe and a floral scarf around her neck and identified herself. She had scratches on her face and she pulled up her black robe to reveal a bloodied thigh. She said neighbours in the area where she was detained helped her escape.
The Associated Press only identifies rape victims who volunteer their names.
As Ms. al-Obeidi spoke, a hotel waitress brandished a butter knife, a government minder reached for his handgun and another waitress pulled a jacket tightly over her head.
Ms. Al-Obeidi said she was targeted by the troops because she's from the eastern city of Benghazi, a rebel stronghold.
The waiters called her a traitor and told her to shut up. She retorted: “Easterners – we're all Libyan brothers, we are supposed to be treated the same, but this is what the Gadhafi militiamen did to me, they violated my honor.”
It soon turned into a scene of chaos with journalists attempting to protect the woman from government minders who physically attacked and intimidated her.
Journalists who tried to intervene were pushed out of the way by the minders. A British television reporter was punched, and CNN's camera was smashed on the ground and ripped to pieces by the government minders.
Eventually the minders overpowered the woman and led her outside, shoving her into a car that sped away. Ms. Al-Obeidi kept crying that she was certain she would be thrown in jail. She begged photographers to take her picture, raising her robe to show them her bruised body. A minder tried to cover her mouth with his hand to keep her from talking.
“Look at what happens – Gadhafi's militiamen kidnap women at gunpoint, and rape them ... they rape them,” Ms. al-Obeidi screamed.
She said she wanted to be taken to see the leader himself.
“I want to see Moammar Gadhafi. Didn't he say that every victim will have justice? I want my rights,” she said.
The government spokesman said the woman was under investigation.
“The investigators did phone me and told me the lady is drunk and that she seems to be suffering mentally,” Mr. Ibrahim said. “They are checking on her health condition, her mental condition, whether she was really abused or if these were fantasies.”
The USA Position on Libya
There's more than one story in that.
The event, if it happened.
The assault in front of media to silence a dissenter.
The hauling away of a person we may or may not ever hear of again. Hard to say if media attention would secure her release or sign her death warrant at this point.
Interesting that she demanded to speak to Gaddafi personally though. That implies a level of familiarity you'd never hear in N America. I'd never think to talk to ask for Harper. I kind of winced at the thought actually. He'd be one of the last people I'd want to have to deal with if I was distressed. lol
The event, if it happened.
The assault in front of media to silence a dissenter.
The hauling away of a person we may or may not ever hear of again. Hard to say if media attention would secure her release or sign her death warrant at this point.
Interesting that she demanded to speak to Gaddafi personally though. That implies a level of familiarity you'd never hear in N America. I'd never think to talk to ask for Harper. I kind of winced at the thought actually. He'd be one of the last people I'd want to have to deal with if I was distressed. lol
The USA Position on Libya
Considering some of the stunts I have seen in the media and some of the propaganda I tend to think her story is a contrivance. No pics, no vids, nothing happened. I don't trust the media. I don't trust political groups with agendas, simple as that. They all lie.
The USA Position on Libya
The main reason I see to doubt it is that she demanded to see Gaddafi. If she thought the pro-Gaddafi military were threatening I'd expect her to want to get help from outside sources or the rebels. otoh, if it did happen and she wanted to see Gaddafi it's flattering to him in a kind of "just wait till I tell Dad" feeling and indicates that she trusts Gaddafi to be a voice of reason and fairness. otoh yet again... it would make a brilliant ploy to try and assassinate him by posing as a half crazed injured woman demanding his help. otoh once more... people will do all kinds of weird things to get 5 minutes of fame so she might have just seen journalists beat herself up a bit and made her grand entrance.
otoh (ps) Maybe it really did happen.
otoh (ps) Maybe it really did happen.
The USA Position on Libya
Perhaps a rare moment.
The US president says:
In blunt terms, Obama said the Western-led air campaign had stopped Gaddafi's advances and halted a slaughter that could have shaken the stability of an entire region and "stained the conscience of the entire world".
Obama defends military intervention in Libya - Americas - Al Jazeera English
I say:
I agree.
miracles do occur.
The US president says:
In blunt terms, Obama said the Western-led air campaign had stopped Gaddafi's advances and halted a slaughter that could have shaken the stability of an entire region and "stained the conscience of the entire world".
Obama defends military intervention in Libya - Americas - Al Jazeera English
I say:
I agree.
miracles do occur.
The USA Position on Libya
Just reading an article about Bahrain and talking about hypocrisy in the reaction with Libya.
The West's 'double standards' in Middle East - Opinion - Al Jazeera English
While I don't disagree that efforts to make political changes, instigated by the population of a country, should be respected equally I can see why Gaddafi garnered a heavier response when he threatened to go "door to door" to root out the rebels. In other places the head of state can make empty promises to listen or appeals for rebels to stop and go about slaughtering the dissidents without ever declaring their intent to retaliate. In Libya Gaddafi made it quite clear what he was about to do.
I admire peaceful protest much more than the violent rebels of Libya but the hands of the West are somewhat tied until irrefutable evidence of necessary intervention are provided. Even then it's apparent refutable. The West is accused of manufacturing regime change any time they deploy military forces so they're kind of damned if they do and damned if they don't.
The West's 'double standards' in Middle East - Opinion - Al Jazeera English
While I don't disagree that efforts to make political changes, instigated by the population of a country, should be respected equally I can see why Gaddafi garnered a heavier response when he threatened to go "door to door" to root out the rebels. In other places the head of state can make empty promises to listen or appeals for rebels to stop and go about slaughtering the dissidents without ever declaring their intent to retaliate. In Libya Gaddafi made it quite clear what he was about to do.
I admire peaceful protest much more than the violent rebels of Libya but the hands of the West are somewhat tied until irrefutable evidence of necessary intervention are provided. Even then it's apparent refutable. The West is accused of manufacturing regime change any time they deploy military forces so they're kind of damned if they do and damned if they don't.